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2012/08/02 10:34:56
Subject: Re:A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
DatrhMarko wrote:For me , the main problem of 40k is to much inquisition..and to much chapters with xxx power who serve yyy....thats is like repeating all the time...
I sticking to Heresy from this day on (tonight I've red " Emperor's gift " so that is liable statment)
Which brings me nicely on to my chapter suggestion (you can help me here Marko).
At the end of the book the Inquisition brings in a full Chapter of Space Marines, I can't remember which Chapter it was though - I keep thinking Red Hunters. Do you know which one I mean Marko? They were absolutely fanatical and the GK's didn't relish the thought of having to go toe to toe with them.
So, they were fanatical (check), loyal to the Inquisition (check), partly there to hunt other SM's (check), and, gaming wise, you'd be able to choose between running codex rules with Khan for a biker army, or Black Templars to highlight their zeal and fanaticism.
Traitors in all but name...an Astartes' loyalty should NOT be to the High Lords or the Inquisition, but to the Emperor and their Primarch. They are unworthy to bear the title 'Astartes'.
Did you read Emperor's gift ? There's a fine line there which separates true loyalist and religius fanatics...
Not yet...but First Heretic and The Last Church make it clear what the old man thought about religion.
‘Verona’s work was never meant for darkness,’ said the Emperor. ‘Only in the light can it achieve its full potential. Humanity is the same, and only when the suffocating shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question is gone from this world will we see its true brilliance.’
As to the Sister Alicia and her 'visions' at the end of the Age of Apostasy, or that Fatidicus or something who supposedly founded the Ecclesiarchy after the Horus Heresy after seeing (surprise!) visions...
‘If a man claimed his dead grandfather was speaking to him he’d be locked up in an asylum, but if he were to claim the voice of god was speaking to him, his fellow clerics might well make him into a saint. Clearly there is safety in numbers when it comes to hearing voices, eh?’
The old man had an impressive sense of humor.
Spoiler:
‘The Lord of Mankind is the Light and the Way, and all His actions are for the benefit of mankind, which is His people. So it is taught in the holy words of our order, and above all things, God will protect...’
‘There’s no one there to hear you,’ said Revelation from behind him. ‘I don’t care what you say any more. You have come here to do what you feel you need to do and I’ll not buttress your ego and self-righteousness by playing along any longer. So just end this charade.’ ‘As you wish,’ said Revelation. ‘No more games.’ A golden light built behind Uriah and he saw his shadow thrown out onto the graven surface of the altar. The pearlescent hands of the clock shimmered in the reflected light and the ebony face gleamed. Where once the church had been gloomy and filled with shadows, it was now a place of light. Uriah pulled himself to his feet and turned to see a wondrous figure standing before him, towering and magnificent, clad in golden armour fashioned with love and the greatest skill, every plate embossed with thunderbolts and eagles.
Gone was Revelation, and in his place was a towering warrior of exquisite splendour, an exemplar of all that was regal and inspirational in humanity. The armour bulked his form out beyond measure and Uriah felt tears spilling from his eyes as he realised he had seen this breathtakingly, achingly perfect face once before.
On the killing fields of Gaduare. ‘You...’ breathed Uriah, stumbling back and collapsing onto his haunches. Pain shot through his hip and pelvis, but he barely felt it.
‘Now do you understand the futility of what you do here?’ said the golden giant. Long dark hair spilled around the warrior’s face, a face that Uriah could only see through the hazy lens of memory. He could see the unremarkable features of Revelation subsumed into the warrior’s countenance, itself so worthy of devotion that it took all Uriah’s self-control not to drop to his knees and offer what remained of his life to its glorification.
‘You...’ repeated Uriah, the pain in his bones no match for the pain in his heart. ‘You are the... the... Emperor...’ ‘I am, and it is time to go, Uriah,’ said the Emperor. Uriah looked around at his now gleaming and brightly lit church. ‘Go? Go where? There is nowhere else for me in this godless world of yours.’
‘Of course there is,’ replied the Emperor. ‘Embrace the new way and be part of something incredible. A world and a time where we stand on the brink of achieving everything we ever dreamed.’
Uriah nodded dumbly and felt a firm hand gently take his arm and lift him to his feet once more. Strength flowed from the Emperor’s grip and Uriah felt the aches and ailments that had plagued him for decades fade until they were little more than evil memories.
He looked up at Isandula Verona’s magnificent fresco, and the breath caught in his throat. Colours once dulled by the darkness now blazed with life and the ceiling seemed to burst with life and vitality as the Emperor’s light gave it fresh animation and vibrancy. The skin of the painted figures shone with vitality, and the livid blues and lusty reds radiated potency.
‘Verona’s work was never meant for darkness,’ said the Emperor. ‘Only in the light can it achieve its full potential. Humanity is the same, and only when the suffocating shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question is gone from this world will we see its true brilliance.’
Uriah only reluctantly tore his eyes from the impossibly beautiful fresco and cast his gaze around his church. The stained-glass windows shone with new life and the intricate, subtle architecture of the interior gleamed with the skill of its builders. ‘I will miss this place,’ said Uriah.
‘In time I will build an Imperium of such grandeur and magnificence that this will seem like a pauper’s hovel,’ said the Emperor. ‘Now, let us be on our way.’
Ever since I read this, I knew the Emperor would never have approved of everything that's happened since then. Every vision received, every interpretation of his will by the High Lords, Inquisition, and worst of all, the frakheads of the Ecclesiarchy and all their lackeys are simply tailored to suit their agendas. They are traitors in all but name.
Imagine if the Sisters met the Emperor, as in really met him, as opposed to standing before an unresponsive mummy and receiving visions they interpreted as they wished. The above would have happened. The old man would either talk them out of their faith, or, more tragically, break it without mercy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/02 10:51:46
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
2012/08/02 18:46:02
Subject: Re:A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
And what was his saying, IIRC something like :"All the evil from the world will stop when the last stone from last church fall on last priest !" or something like that
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 18:46:24
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/08/03 19:43:33
Subject: Re:A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
Some serious false SW fluff being put forth in this thread (looking mostly at you Buttons).
1. Prior to the HH novels, two Index Astartes articles put Russ either with the Emperor when Magnus delivered his message or immediately after and taking order directly from the Emperor to sanction Magnus for his betrayal.
2. Space Wolves joining the Red Corsairs is not a sign of falling to Chaos, it is a sign of going renegade. It is said in the SW codex that some companies will indeed go renegade, however actually falling to Chaos is not possible specifically due to the Canis Helix of the Russ gene-seed. SW touched by Chaos, go full blown wulfen as presented in Prospero Burns when a rune priest is touched by Chaos when investigating the memories of an individual manipulated by Chaos. The only instance of actual Chaos tainted SW is presented in Battle of the Fang with regard to the Wolf Brothers successor chapter to the SW, however the chapter was known for genetic instability, thus the Canis Helix was not fully accepted by the aspirants.
3. The SW codex does say that the Canis Helix is responsible for SW to be better then Space Marines in terms of relfexes, senses, toughened skin, and the telltale canines.
Randomly spouting off stuff about a chapter you know nothing about isn't too smart when there are plenty of people around that are going to fact check you on it.
If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up!
2012/08/03 20:11:43
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
Well, I can't counter everything you've said as I don't know much about the sons of russ, but I can argue the following:
If a Space Wolf cannot turn to chaos, as you said, that would mean that no Space Wolf has ever fallen to Chaos, correct?
Now, if we agree on what that means, I would point you to Codex:Grey Knights, which states that they are the only chapter that has never had a single member fall to Chaos, thereby disproving your theory on that part.
Now I'm going to let someone else take over the argument, I know what the Sons of Russ are like when they see a bone...
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2012/08/03 22:03:22
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
liquidjoshi wrote:Well, I can't counter everything you've said as I don't know much about the sons of russ, but I can argue the following:
If a Space Wolf cannot turn to chaos, as you said, that would mean that no Space Wolf has ever fallen to Chaos, correct?
Now, if we agree on what that means, I would point you to Codex:Grey Knights, which states that they are the only chapter that has never had a single member fall to Chaos, thereby disproving your theory on that part.
Now I'm going to let someone else take over the argument, I know what the Sons of Russ are like when they see a bone...
Well the BT would say the same.
I will stand by that SW are immune to falling to Chaos, despite what a recent WD would have you believe. By immune, I am not saying that they can look on a Slaneesh created harem of naked Fenrisian womenfolk and not be tempted. I am saying that in the event that they fall to that temptation, they are transformed into a slavering wolf beast that cares little for friend or foe, with both being prey in its eyes. It is almost like the Canis Helix is a self-defense mechanism against the touch of Chaos that goes terribly, terribly wrong.
In the case of the rune priest that was touched by maleficarum and went wulfen, he tried to kill Kasper and two other rune priests before being incapacitated at which time he reverted back to his human form, was interrogated, and then summarily executed with a bolt pistol shot to the head.
So it isn't that Space Wolves are immune to falling to Chaos or being touched by Chaos such as the Grey Knights, you just get a genetically engineered self-defense mechanism that goes freakin crazy that ultimately kills friend and foe before being put down. You don't get a Nurgle Wolf or a Noise Wolf, you just get a rabid killing machine that kills whatever it wants.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/03 22:06:21
If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up!
2012/08/04 00:36:03
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
Negatory, commander. These guys have only appeared once in the last few centuries, and that was during the Badab War, where they screwed the Lamenters pretty hard and then left for the void to kill aliens that looked funny and whatnot. They do not maintain a presence within the usual confines of the galaxy.
2012/08/04 13:04:05
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
So it isn't that Space Wolves are immune to falling to Chaos or being touched by Chaos such as the Grey Knights, you just get a genetically engineered self-defense mechanism that goes freakin crazy that ultimately kills friend and foe before being put down. You don't get a Nurgle Wolf or a Noise Wolf, you just get a rabid killing machine that kills whatever it wants.
Still counts.
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2012/08/04 13:51:25
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
Why do I get the feeling that in the 'original plan' (where the Primarchs weren't scattered) Magnus and Russ were supposed to be each others' counterpoints and partners.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
2012/08/04 15:45:27
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
So it isn't that Space Wolves are immune to falling to Chaos or being touched by Chaos such as the Grey Knights, you just get a genetically engineered self-defense mechanism that goes freakin crazy that ultimately kills friend and foe before being put down. You don't get a Nurgle Wolf or a Noise Wolf, you just get a rabid killing machine that kills whatever it wants.
Still counts.
Maybe in your eyes.
However you wint find any SW prancing around in stretch pants and make-up singing out of tune Slaneeshi tribute songs or bloated neck beard SW sitting in his own feces playing the latest release of Diablo 3 with Papa Nurgle.
If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up!
2012/08/05 06:22:23
Subject: Re:A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
Concerning Space Wolves, I would like to clear some things up.
Firstly, they were indeed the original legion killers and it is hinted at that they may be responsible for at least one missing legion as well as the near annihilation of the Thousand Sons.
Spoiler:
When Longfang was talking with Kasper in Prospero Burns, he mentioned that each of the Primarchs had a certain duty to perform. Russ' duty was as his executioner.
Though now there are chapters that have been created to fulfill that purpose in the present, the Space Wolves would still be fully capable of killing off a chapter if need be. I think the real reason they have not in recent history is because of their almost defiant nature towards the Imperium and its mechanisms in general.
While they remain the loyal guard dogs to this day, the Wolf Lords of Fenris hold little love for the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy, and the High Lords.
2012/08/05 06:30:51
Subject: Re:A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
Bongfu wrote:
While they remain the loyal guard dogs to this day, the Wolf Lords of Fenris hold little love for the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy, and the High Lords.
Only thing that makes me like them, to be honest.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
2012/08/05 06:34:23
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
sigh.... my IG have no choice in the matter..... we have more firepower but you get freedom of choice? thats sum bull
Kilkrazy wrote: We moderators often make unwise decisions on Friday afternoons.
kestril wrote: Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.
2012/08/05 17:00:12
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
So it isn't that Space Wolves are immune to falling to Chaos or being touched by Chaos such as the Grey Knights, you just get a genetically engineered self-defense mechanism that goes freakin crazy that ultimately kills friend and foe before being put down. You don't get a Nurgle Wolf or a Noise Wolf, you just get a rabid killing machine that kills whatever it wants.
Still counts.
Agree- can someone give us evidence where is stated (writen) that a SW became chaos marines?Please do...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/08/05 17:23:24
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
DatrhMarko wrote:Agree- can someone give us evidence where is stated (writen) that a SW became chaos marines?Please do...
"With overwhelming numbers now on his side, Huron was able to sweep the vessel from prow to stern, eliminating all resistance. In the port gunnery decks, the Space Wolves fought with vigour and determination, selling their lives dearly as a scarred, grizzled Wolf Priest roared and bellowed his hatred of the renegades. On the starboard side, it seemed at first that the Red Corsairs might be held out of the gun decks. Then, without warning, several of the Space Wolves turned on their brethren, attacking them from behind before surrendering to the mercy of the Blood Reaver. They recanted their oaths to the Space Wolves, Leman Russ and the Emperor, and swore new pledges of loyalty to Huron. As a reward for their treachery, Blackheart granted them command of the Wolf of Fenris." - 4E C:CSM p.59
2012/08/05 17:59:32
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
DatrhMarko wrote:Agree- can someone give us evidence where is stated (writen) that a SW became chaos marines?Please do...
"With overwhelming numbers now on his side, Huron was able to sweep the vessel from prow to stern, eliminating all resistance. In the port gunnery decks, the Space Wolves fought with vigour and determination, selling their lives dearly as a scarred, grizzled Wolf Priest roared and bellowed his hatred of the renegades. On the starboard side, it seemed at first that the Red Corsairs might be held out of the gun decks. Then, without warning, several of the Space Wolves turned on their brethren, attacking them from behind before surrendering to the mercy of the Blood Reaver. They recanted their oaths to the Space Wolves, Leman Russ and the Emperor, and swore new pledges of loyalty to Huron. As a reward for their treachery, Blackheart granted them command of the Wolf of Fenris." - 4E C:CSM p.59
Doesn't prove that they turned to chaos, only that they went rogue ...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/08/05 18:53:53
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
DatrhMarko wrote:Doesn't prove that they turned to chaos, only that they went rogue ...
Well, the Red Corsairs are a warband of Chaos Space Marines whose members bear the eight-spoked Star of Chaos on their armour, and the story appears in the Codex: CSM. I for one will call any Marine bearing the Mark of Chaos on his armour a Chaos Space Marine.
If however you as an individual player think that isn't unambigious and instead prefer Special Snowflake Immunity, that is your call to make. In the end, there is no canon in this franchise anyways - only numerous overlapping yet unique interpretations.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/05 18:54:55
2012/08/05 19:23:10
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
DatrhMarko wrote:Doesn't prove that they turned to chaos, only that they went rogue ...
Well, the Red Corsairs are a warband of Chaos Space Marines whose members bear the eight-spoked Star of Chaos on their armour, and the story appears in the Codex: CSM. I for one will call any Marine bearing the Mark of Chaos on his armour a Chaos Space Marine.
If however you as an individual player think that isn't unambigious and instead prefer Special Snowflake Immunity, that is your call to make. In the end, there is no canon in this franchise anyways - only numerous overlapping yet unique interpretations.
No man,you've got a point- but facts are facts ,guessing is guessing - and btw who knows if they are wearing chaos mark on their armor or are just evil (not Chaos way)..There is no clear evidence(writen) on chaos corruption anywere in the codex...so I rest my case....we can start vague discussions - but let's not....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/05 19:23:55
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/08/05 20:27:32
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
DatrhMarko wrote:Doesn't prove that they turned to chaos, only that they went rogue ...
Well, the Red Corsairs are a warband of Chaos Space Marines whose members bear the eight-spoked Star of Chaos on their armour, and the story appears in the Codex: CSM. I for one will call any Marine bearing the Mark of Chaos on his armour a Chaos Space Marine.
If however you as an individual player think that isn't unambigious and instead prefer Special Snowflake Immunity, that is your call to make. In the end, there is no canon in this franchise anyways - only numerous overlapping yet unique interpretations.
Whilst a Space Wolf fan, but far from a fan boy, I have to say that Tyr's point does seem to have credence. I mean, exposure to the warp/Chaos does (at least appear to) antagonise the Canis Helix/MotW and I can't think of any Space Wolves that have ever been dedicated to Chaos...
There's a difference between a Renegade, than a Chaos Space Marine or warrior dedicated to/embraced by Chaos.
I mean, the Night Lords fight largely without Chaos, whereas The Black Legion are heavily corrupted.
I don't like the idea, but the idea that the canis helix practically implodes before they can be dedicated to Chaos (but still not immune) does appear to have credence.
But then again, there is Skyrar's Dark Wolves (Chaos Marines around Fenris sector - only a hint, but unsubtle) and (Battle of the Fang)...
Spoiler:
the Wolf Brothers
Both of which may suggest otherwise.
Again, its not a proven theory (nor one I particularly care for), but it does seem to have some support...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2012/08/05 22:59:31
Subject: A SM chapter that hunt other SM chapter traitor or suspected to be traitors..
Just Dave wrote:There's a difference between a Renegade, than a Chaos Space Marine or warrior dedicated to/embraced by Chaos.
Perhaps our opinions of what a "Chaos Space Marine" is are just different. To me, a Space Marine fighting under the banner of Chaos = CSM. It's that simple.
Renegades are instead those Space Marines who no longer fight for the Imperium - but do not fight for Chaos either.
I also see nothing in the Codex that mentions this Canis Helix acting as some sort of "defence" against corruption by Chaos (if I missed something, please correct me by giving a page ref) - the book merely says that all SW are susceptible to being turned into salvering beasts by it. Neither is corruption by Chaos required for this to happen (unless we presume that the entire Chapter has been touched by the Warp), nor do I see any evidence of this mutation occurring every single time some Marine is exposed to it. I would think that there is some "magnifying" effect of Chaos, since the geneseed is already flawed and the Warp has a general tendency to mutate people further, but that does not mean it would always have to happen. And that's how all of this fits together with the Grey Knights being the only Chapter with an in-built immunity.
At least that's what *I* have been walking away with from the studio material.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/05 23:00:26
