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No, I think modern minds have sufficient access to good novels and movies to get an idea of the various interpretations of honour. Ironically, I've been on the other side of the discussion once on the STO forums, in a big thread about Klingon honour. Various authors have written a number of interesting treatises on the idea of honour through strength of arms.

At the end of the day, however, what I'm questioning is why must the Skulltaker slay that "craven who refuses his challenge"? I definitively agree that he obviously prefers a real fight, but that doesn't mean that his indiscriminate slaughter of anyone else wouldn't taint his supposedly noble behaviour. What I'm thinking is that the Skulltaker gives a grot's ass about the concept of "honour". He cares not for innocence or affiliation or promises or age, the only thing he cares for is that he is presented with a challenging fight. And if he doesn't get it, he'll still have no problem slaying defenseless babes in their beds - he'd just be bored, and after a while even more enraged that he doesn't get to kill something that can actually fight back (then possibly venting his frustration on some hapless ally ).

Again, it could be as simple as refusing a challenge dishonoring both the challenger as well as the challenged party. When Skulltaker calls you out, it's because he considers you to be mighty. If you crumble before his challenge then you have effectively insulted his judgment. This thing Skulltaker only exists for battle. It is a matter of religious import to him. Imagine going into a church, having the priest offer you communion in front of every one, and then you're like "no, I'm good." You insult the entire community, the traditions, the good will of your hosts, etc, etc, etc, in that situation. From its daemonic perspective, the battlefield is not some chessboard that Skulltaker moves its pieces across to achieve ends beyond the scope of war. War itself is the goal. Battle is a holy enactment of Khorne's very being. To turn down Skulltaker's challenge is to spit in the Blood God's eye. Honor demands blood, one way or the other.

A lot of these answers are very contradictory. Single one to one combat produces far less blood than outright massacre - how can khorne enjoy both equally?

The problem with any religon is that its text and creed are open to interpritation. There will be those blood crazed fanatics who will gut and decapitate everything in sight because in Khornes favourite tag line seems to be "Blood for the blood God" but for the warriors who understand the creed on a different level, who understand that the souls of those they kill feed their God, why would they feed him substandard fare? especially from an astartes point of view.

I only recently began reading the CSM black library books (So far ive read the iron warriors and word bearers omnibus') both book had their blood crazed nutters BUT these blood crazed lunatics were still astartes at their core, they understood the basis of warfare. Sacrificing a helpless woman to Khorne probably wont garner much kudos, on the other hand as a slave said woman can reload a seige engine, help haul a gun carriage, dig a trench. You will always get extemists from any religon, fictional or otherwise, its important to note that people rarely throw their lot in with the chaos Gods for their darker incarnations.

The Miser doesnt side with tzeencth because he wants tentacles, he wants to sate his ambition for power.

The Noble doesnt side with slannesh because he wants to be tortured repeatedly, he wants power and to be loved.

The sick dont side with Nurgle because they want to be pox ridden, they want to survive.

By the same token a warrior wants to better himself and beat his enemies on the feild of battle, not murder the contents of a small orphanage.

Testify wrote:A lot of these answers are very contradictory. Single one to one combat produces far less blood than outright massacre - how can khorne enjoy both equally?

It seems to me that he does not. Skulltaker gets a promotion for 888 skulls. Now, considering that all bloodletters are immortal and that all they do is continuously try to decapitate things, why would Skulltaker stand out unless each of those 888 skulls was an exceptional trophy?


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danp164 wrote:By the same token a warrior wants to better himself and beat his enemies on the feild of battle, not murder the contents of a small orphanage.

Very well said.

Testify wrote:A lot of these answers are very contradictory. Single one to one combat produces far less blood than outright massacre - how can khorne enjoy both equally?

I think here it gets tricky.
Is that one-to-one combat a truly epic fight between two mighty opponents, or is it just a CSM Lord hacking a PDF soldier in two with his chainsword?
vs
How many children are in that orphanage?

I'd guess that the answers to each of these questions would have to be weighed against each other to determine Khorne's interest. Simple bloodlust vs interest in a good fight. Khorne exists for both.

Manchu wrote:Again, it could be as simple as refusing a challenge dishonoring both the challenger as well as the challenged party.

And again: I understand that.
This doesn't deal with the "why" regarding what would happen if you put the Skulltaker into an unguarded hospital.

Lynata wrote:This doesn't deal with the "why" regarding what would happen if you put the Skulltaker into an unguarded hospital.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that a being who recklessly slaughters the weak cannot also value matching its strength against a worthy opponent?

It seems pretty simple to me: Skulltaker wouldn't slap a baby for honor's sake. Like I said, culling the weak is just the dirty work. It's a necessary thing -- because the strong who survive will be the most prized opponents, the ones who make honorable combat possible, whose skulls are most fit to be trophies.

Manchu wrote:I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that a being who recklessly slaughters the weak cannot also value matching its strength against a worthy opponent?

No, I'm saying that, in this case, a being that prefers matching its strength against a worthy opponent will still recklessly slaughter the weak whenever it gets the chance.

Manchu wrote:It seems pretty simple to me: Skulltaker wouldn't slap a baby for honor's sake. Like I said, culling the weak is just the dirty work. It's a necessary thing -- because the strong who survive will be the most prized opponents, the ones who make honorable combat possible, whose skulls are most fit to be trophies.

Skulltaker doesn't care for honour. He cares for challenges. The concept of "honour" is what some people may try to attribute to him due to his preference for strong opponents. (of course this comes back to the actual definition of "what does honour mean")
It also isn't a matter of necessity - for this, the slaughter is too indiscriminate, too unlimited. Exterminating entire planetary populations would obviously prevent potential strong opponents to be born there in the future, after all.

This does tie in with Khorne - or any other Chaos god - not really having a vested interest in ever truly "winning" the conflict, though. The Chaos gods thrive thanks to it, so it seems logical that they (at least subconsciously, if not openly) would prefer the current stalemate to last indefinitely. And there are some in the Imperium who believe this is best for the survival of mankind as well...
Makes me wonder as to whether Chaos may occasionally only put up a half hearted fight (lack of coordination and support by the Big Four towards their minions) and spare entire worlds or suddenly halt an advance, just so that they'd be able to come back later. Of course, this would be the game of the gods and not something that a lowly demon or CSM or cultist would realize.

It does come back to the question of defining honor, which is where I started this morning. I don't think it's a terribly coherent or complicated worldview but it does seem to exist: fighting strong opponents is honorable; culling the weak is a necessity. Asking a daemon to be consistent is ... misguided.

Going right back to the beginning - Slaves to Darkness says:

Khrone is the Blood God, the angry and murderous god of Chaos......
Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, destorying everything and everyone within its reach (sounds kinda like Azathoth to me).....
Every life taken by a follower of Khorne increases the Blood God's power. He looks with particular favour upon those who take the livs of thier friends and allies, and the more death and destruction a creature has caused, the more welcome it is as a sacrifce to Korne.
The only way to gain favour with him is by killing - enemies of firends, all the dead are equal in the eyes of Khorne...

Khorne is pure in its needs, however his followers and creations may I feel, be more complicated than their Master and in how they sate its needs

Lynata wrote:This does tie in with Khorne - or any other Chaos god - not really having a vested interest in ever truly "winning" the conflict, though. The Chaos gods thrive thanks to it, so it seems logical that they (at least subconsciously, if not openly) would prefer the current stalemate to last indefinitely. And there are some in the Imperium who believe this is best for the survival of mankind as well...
Makes me wonder as to whether Chaos may occasionally only put up a half hearted fight (lack of coordination and support by the Big Four towards their minions) and spare entire worlds or suddenly halt an advance, just so that they'd be able to come back later. Of course, this would be the game of the gods and not something that a lowly demon or CSM or cultist would realize.

I agree - usually the forces of Chaos - be they the Lord of Chaos in the Moorcock novels, the Shadows in B5 of the Warhammer Gods would normally prefer the "Great Game" to continue for infinity - but they usually are forced into a final confrontation by their opposite numbers of Law or they are too successful in their actions, plots and machinaitons. If the game ends then their revals are ended and Chaos enjoys the process more than the climax............

I would suggets that Chaos in 40K will and does frustrate the other powers and on occassion themselves so that the game can continue - even if the mortal realm was subsumed by Chaos - would that really gain them anything new.................would they care.

Those touting the slogan "Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows" to counter the concept of martial pride/honourable killing are not considering the quote in it's entirety, it was stated first back in the old Realm of Chaos days when a Khornate renegade champion was falling in battle to an astartes foe. It was meant to represent that Khorne was pleased/powered even as his servant was falling. The Khorne warriors never cared that they were beaten by a more powerful foe because that foe too was serving their master's dictate. It was never meant to represent World Eaters massacring orphans at a picnic. It's not a quote about killing the weak, it's a quote about Khorne not caring if it is his servants or their enemies winning, only that there is warfare and offerings of mighty warrior deaths to appease his appetite.

There has been, clearly stated, reference in the background over the years about the Throne of Skulls and placing offerings of skulls at the feet of Khorne in the hereafter/realm of chaos. These offereings must be worthy foes, champions, monsters, sorcerers and such. The better the offering, the higher the skull may be placed, the closer to the god himself.

In a short story, in an old old white dwarf, when the first Grey Knights were released in terminator armour, a planetary governor's palace is attacked by cultists who summon a bloodthirster which sets about killing the PDF and palace guards which are protecting his target. The Governor springs his trap and Grey Knights teleport into the chamber to attack the bloodthirster.
The Bloodthirster shouts 'At last, worthy meat!' and sets about taking on the far more threatening opponents. He seems genuinely pleased at the increased challenge and with more worthwhile skulls to take back to his master.

I don't think anyone here was argueing that Khornates wouldn't enjoy a greater challenge. That was not the subject of the debate.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It was never meant to represent World Eaters massacring orphans at a picnic.

Excellent reminder, MGS! Seems like this saying may have gotten carried too far.

So ... you're saying the World Eaters would not massacre orphans at a picnic?

...but but the orphan slaughter is the best part of our company picnic! And they make such good BBQ,,,,

Just for clarification - someone who massacred someone for the sheer carnal joy...khorne would not be interested in?
Chivalry and bloodlust are generally considered opposites.
And why would khorne want followers who were too weak to have everything in their favour, preferring instead to risk their lives in equal combat?

Even the dullest World Eater could put the following argument together:

- I want to claim as many skulls as possible
- the defenseless have skulls
- it is easier to claim the skulls of the defenseless
- I should always prioritize attacking the defenseless

Funny enough, that's not what they do. It's a sound argument -- but, as MSG points out, the premise is incorrect. The servants of Khorne do not necessarily want to claim any old skull for their patron's throne. And they certainly don't want to do it by just any means.

To me, this is where the concept of "honor" comes in for Khornate warriors and Khorne himself. If you have to hack through orphans to draw out a worthy opponent or get to her then so be it. But the Blood God will not favor you for punching babies.


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Testify wrote:Just for clarification - someone who massacred someone for the sheer carnal joy...khorne would not be interested in?

Sure, that's a good start.

Chivalry and bloodlust are generally considered opposites.

Chivalry is something way specific and not at all at issue here.

And why would khorne want followers who were too weak to have everything in their favour, preferring instead to risk their lives in equal combat?

Because the victory is more glorious when the opponents are both mighty.

.... I wish I had never brought up the orphanage

Breaking away from the Blood for the blood god Skulls for the Skull throne party line, is khorne not more a god of war and violence than a god of blood and skulls. Its like saying christians worship crucifixes, sure it features heavily in some subsets of christianity but its not the core component of the religon.

At the end of the day even the skull of the mighteist of heroes would not equal the bloodshed and glory of conquering a whole world in the name of khorne. Individual duels and battles may be won with butchery and savagery but wars are won with tactical thought and planning. Ergo there has to be a brain behind the blood god.

Yeah, it's called Tzeench. Khorne cares not whether he wins over the world or not, he simply cares about the kills.

Wars are generally fought to accomplish a goal external to war itself. The belligerents want territory, resources, prestige, etc. This is not the case with Khorne. Khorne does not advocate conquest except as a matter of martial feat. Therefore, Khorne would favor she who placed the skull of a primarch (for example) before his Brass Throne over she who offered the skulls of a hundred million invalids.

The followers of Khorne are warriors, not skull farmers. They might also be generals, sure. They might also be butchers of the innocent and helpless, sure. But those are secondary considerations.

Manchu wrote:Even the dullest World Eater could put the following argument together:
- I want to claim as many skulls as possible
- the defenseless have skulls
- it is easier to claim the skulls of the defenseless
- I should always prioritize attacking the defenseless
Funny enough, that's not what they do.

Yet again, who said that? I don't think anybody did. What people are suggesting as a counterpoint to the whole "noble aspect" bit is that Khorne's followers - and probably Khorne himself - are prioritising attacking worthy foes (as a true challenge will be much more interesting than a simple decapitation), yet still do not forget about the defenseless. You may call it the "dirty work" of Khorne, but that does not mean that Khorne and his followers would still not enjoy it.

Time for some more quotes!

"World Eaters, the Blood Soaked Berzerkers, Slayers of Skalathrax
Long before the Horus Heresy, the World Eaters were noted for their savagery, having been censured by the Emperor for their brutality and use of psycho-surgery to turn new recruits into frothing madmen. Still, the World Eaters were invaluable terror troops in the Great Crusade and fought at the forefront of many great campaigns. It was simple for Horus to pervert their bloody rituals to the worship of Chaos. Since then, they have become devoted to Khorne, the Blood God, and they have become a byword for carnage. In its bloodlust, the Legion tore itself apart, forming many smaller warbands, which to this day still seek battle, often joining other Chaos armies in their quest for skulls."
-- 6E Core Rulebook, p228

Is there really anyone who believes the World Eaters became less terror-troop'ish in their worship to Khorne? Have you read about the origin of the CSM Khorne Berzerkers, and what they do? Actually, why do you think this Legion is called World Eaters?

"Khorne is the Blood God, an angry and murderous God of Chaos whose bellows of insatiable rage echo throughout time and space. His great brass throne sits upon a mountain of skulls in the midst of a plain of splintered bones and lakes of blood, the remains of his followers slain in battle and those killed in his name. Khorne embodies mindless and absolute violence, destroying everyone and everything within reach, slaying both friend and foe alike.
The followers of Khorne are always ferocious warriors, for the Blood God abhors the trickery of magic and cowardly sorcerers. Men turn to Khorne for the power to conquer, to defeat their enemies in battle, to wreak bloody vengeance and to attain unaimaginable martial prowess. The most fanatical and dedicated to his followers, those trapped fully within his clawed grasp, know that he desires only wild slaughter. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does."
-- 4E C:CSM

Interestingly, here the "cares not from where the blood comes" sentence is linked specifically to wild slaughter, which sounds quite a bit less specific than honorable duels between friend and foe, or even ally and ally.
You just have to read about Khârn's background to know how this works for the World Eaters. The guy torches entire cities and "has dedicated his millennia-long existence to unleashing bloody carnage upon anyone and anything within reach."
Perhaps it even just so happens that the defenseless are usually fleeing from battle, so they happen to be the last to get slaughtered on mere coincidence? I for one do not believe a Bloodletter or World Eater CSM would halt his claw or chain-axe if some kid ran past him.

Lynata wrote:Yet again, who said that? I don't think anybody did.

Wut. Conversations with you can be very puzzling. There are at least five or six people ITT referencing the "Khorne cares not" line to mean that Khorne just wants Blud'n'Skullz, nothing more and nothing less.

Lynata wrote:You may call it the "dirty work" of Khorne, but that does not mean that Khorne and his followers would still not enjoy it.

This is where it would be appropriate to say "who said that?" because I know you are explicitly talking about my posts. And my posts say nothing about the followers of Khorne not enjoying slaughter. Rather, my posts emphasize that bullying the defenseless is not going to earn serious points with the Blood God. To get in good, you have to fight some real enemies. "Hey Khorne, I just punched a million kittens, how about making me a daemon prince?" Er, no.

Lynata wrote:Interestingly, here the "cares not from where the blood comes" sentence is linked specifically to wild slaughter, which sounds quite a bit less specific than honorable duels between friend and foe, or even ally and ally.

Well ... duh? That's kind of what we've been talking about -- getting away from the older idea of Khorne for the sake of GRIMDARKNESS. Like other aspects of 40k being amped way, way up, the kill everything always forever no matter what mantra doesn't make a lot of sense when you actually think about it. If you take that literally then it's easy to imagine how the World Eater Legion splintered but basically impossible to see how even a single World Eater warband survives.

Because it's easier to kill a whole fethload of people as a roving pack of goons with chain-axes than just a lone goon with a chain-axe.

At the end of the day even the skull of the mighteist of heroes would not equal the bloodshed and glory of conquering a whole world in the name of khorne. Individual duels and battles may be won with butchery and savagery but wars are won with tactical thought and planning. Ergo there has to be a brain behind the blood god.

No. Khorne doesn't care if you win or lose the battle for the planet. He doesn't give a toss about the planet itself. It is the act of warfare, the act of combat, violence and bloodshed, that Khorne craves. If you have two generals fighting for two otherwise-identical planets, and one wins the day through brilliant strategy, tactical planning and flawlessly-executed maneuvers that kills five million people, seizing the planet in a month and the other general begins his offensive with massive orbital bombardment, followed by the planetfall of a million screaming berserkers, supported by a legion of tanks, and eventually wins control of the planet, twenty years later, at the cost of a hundred billion lives.... guess who's going to get to Daemon Prince first? Dude number 2. No trickery, no subtlety, no devious tactics, just a straight-forward charge, crush everything in his path kind of guy.

Psienesis wrote:Because it's easier to kill a whole fethload of people as a roving pack of goons with chain-axes than just a lone goon with a chain-axe.

That's not a good enough explanation for the literalized account of Khorne. The Blood God isn't interested in the long term maximization of carnage, just wild slaughter, according to that line of thought. So if the nearest murder victim to you happens to be a World Water, it's MAIM BURN KILL all the same.

Actually it makes me wonder: how does Kharn accomplish anything other than mindless slaughter? If he's always killing his buddies and anyone he can reach, how does he get any where or even find supplies? I think he would eventually find himself trapped on a planet with no way off.

I think Khorne and his warriors would be a lot more interesting if they brought back the honor. Emphasize his warriors searching for great warriors to kill, and maybe they do spare civilians at that point, since they are not worthy combatants. And retconn that quote out of existence, it gets thrown around too much.

Noisy_Marine wrote:And retconn that quote out of existence, it gets thrown around too much.

As MGS demonstrates, it can actually be pretty cool if not taken to the uttermost extremes of ERMAHGERD GERMDERK.

That's not a good enough explanation for the literalized account of Khorne. The Blood God isn't interested in the long term maximization of carnage, just wild slaughter, according to that line of thought. So if the nearest murder victim to you happens to be a World Water, it's MAIM BURN KILL all the same.

But the World Eaters are not Khorne Incarnate, they are (mostly) mortal warriors who happen to have a love of the old ultraviolence and are in service to the Blood God. Though we can ask WWKD? when it comes to tooling about with a pack of your battle brothers and causing murder and mayhem, we have to realize that these Berzerkers are not, themselves, Khorne. They still have some shred of mortal minds left... and even Kharn, the greatest of Khorne's personal champions... is still possessed of a mostly mortal mind. He may be Khorne's favored Champion, but that does not make him a clone of Khorne or a perfect copy of "how Khorne himself would have done it."

Point is, we're not talking about a principal that is difficult to emulate. This isn't like trying to be as devious as Tzeentch. Just about anyone can completely and totally live up to the very pinnacle of Khorne is all Khorne cares about is cranking up the violence.

So it can't be just that. It has to be more than mindless slaughter, which is not to say that mindless slaughter has no place. The mystical bezerker rage achieved in the heart of the storm of battle is something like that -- but better to call it transcendent slaughter. And you don't get there by simply doing violence to anything and everything you come across. You have to cultivate it by getting to the very peak of combat prowess, which in turn requires matching yourself against the mighty.

Sorta... again, no one is saying that the World Eaters, or any other follower of Khorne, is going to pass up a challenging fight in favor of slaughtering some non-combatants, but we also cannot say what actions bring a berzerker into their transcendental slaughter state. For some it might be a 1 on 1 combat against a equally-matched foe... for the Berzerkers, I think it's more landing amidst a pack of soldiers (like Guardsmen, or the equivalent) from a jump-pack, or just leaping over the wall, and then laying about with whirring chainaxes in both fists, reveling in the spray of blood, the screams of the dying, and the pure adrenaline rush that primal combat brings, as well as the sadistic pleasure of carnage, slaughter, and the ultimate expression of your personal power.

Sorry, but I keep getting images of a Kharn ripping the wings off of butterflies and stamping on ladybugs while slobbering maniacally. It seems to me that would be enough for the lteralized "cares not" Khorne.