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Eh... I mean, you could extend it to absolutely ridiculous extremes... remember the Tool song about the harvesting of the carrots?... but I think that's just getting too off the mark, really. Though I'm pretty sure that most of Khorne's followers had sociopathic tendencies before taking their first step on the path to glory.

Sounds about right to me.

Manchu wrote:This is where it would be appropriate to say "who said that?" because I know you are explicitly talking about my posts. And my posts say nothing about the followers of Khorne not enjoying slaughter.

Well, you did write that:
"The servants of Khorne do not necessarily want to claim any old skull for their patron's throne. And they certainly don't want to do it by just any means. To me, this is where the concept of "honor" comes in for Khornate warriors and Khorne himself. If you have to hack through orphans to draw out a worthy opponent or get to her then so be it. But the Blood God will not favor you for punching babies."

Whereas I am saying: Yes, they do want to claim "any old skull" for their patron's throne, and a Bloodletter is not holding back when it's standing next to a baby cradle. Slaughter is slaughter, and whilst they enjoy the challenge of a worthy enemy, they will also enjoy general murder and mayhem. Your posts about how it is the "dirty work" and how you suggest that these innocents would only be killed "if they get in the way" suggest a distinctively different image than the one I've been getting from reading the studio material.

Manchu wrote:Rather, my posts emphasize that bullying the defenseless is not going to earn serious points with the Blood God.

Hence me saying earlier that it depends on how good that single combatant you're fighting was, versus "how many orphans" were in that building. Whilst Khorne will always like a good battle between two worthy foes more than a CSM punching a Guardsman's brain through a wall ... I propose that Khorne will also like a mass-murderer who ritually sacrificed a hundred helpless victims more than a CSM who killed a Brother-Marine.

Basically: There comes a point when "more blood" outweighs "worthy blood". To get back to the idea of "earning points" with Khorne ... yeah, maybe a Marine's skull is worth 10 points* and a helpless human's skull is worth only 1 point*. But kill 11 of those and you're still ending up with more favour.
(*: modified by how strong the perpretrator is, of course)

Manchu wrote:Well ... duh? That's kind of what we've been talking about -- getting away from the older idea of Khorne for the sake of GRIMDARKNESS.

Yet apparently this is not true, if the quote posted by Mr. Morden is correct.
The "Slaves to Darkness" book is from 1988, and when this one already references Khorne as the Chaos God of "mindless and absolute violence" and how his demons "destroy everything and everyone within their reach", I just do not see the difference to the current material.

Psienesis wrote:But the World Eaters are not Khorne Incarnate, they are (mostly) mortal warriors who happen to have a love of the old ultraviolence and are in service to the Blood God. Though we can ask WWKD? when it comes to tooling about with a pack of your battle brothers and causing murder and mayhem, we have to realize that these Berzerkers are not, themselves, Khorne. They still have some shred of mortal minds left... and even Kharn, the greatest of Khorne's personal champions... is still possessed of a mostly mortal mind. He may be Khorne's favored Champion, but that does not make him a clone of Khorne or a perfect copy of "how Khorne himself would have done it."

True - a better template would be the Bloodletters, since, according to the Codex, they are a piece of Khorne himself. Thus, looking at what the Bloodletters do should give a fairly good impression about what Khorne thinks.

Seems that people are still mistaking "having honor" with "having a caring heart." I'll say again, the followers of Khorne are violent in their means, but honorable in method. Remember that Khorne sees sorcery and poison as cowardly (a.k.a. dishonorable) means to win a fight. His warriors do battle with only their martial skill and their savage might.

Are toppling orphanages a part of Khorne worship? As long as there is killing involved, yes. Are the skulls of unarmed, cowering orphans a worthy offering to the Throne? I doubt it, now go kill a rival champion.

I don't think anyone is making that mistake. I think what people are debating is whether or not Khornites would bother to slaughter an orphanage or if it is not considered "worthy prey" to the Blood God.

I, for one, think that certain sorts of Khornites would, because slaughter is slaughter is slaughter, where others, possibly from different backgrounds, possibly not as far along the path of glory, possibly due to some remnants of their mortal minds, and thus their humanity, would not, and would instead move on for worthier foes.... but in either event, I don't think Khorne cares.

This whole "noble" aspect of Khorne is a namby-pamby 2nd or 3rd edition hippy addition. The original Khorne was (and has returned to) a mass murdering psychopath.

From page 17 of Slaves to Darkness, we find:

Friends and Enemies (of Khorne) wrote:
Followers of Khorne have no friends and few long term acquaintances- all are soon to be sacrifices to Khorne. Even another follower of Khorne may at any time try to offer their lives to the Blood God!

This same page also notes that Khorne looks upon favor of those who kill, but especially those who kills friends and allies.

I should also note that 2nd edition ruined Chaos, with the introduction of the spikey marines and the downplay of mutation and H.R. Geiger/Bosch looks for the Marines.

I for one am glad that all of this "honorable" crud is gone. Yes Khorne doesn't use sorcery (as it is cheating!). The only "noble" aspect is that at least he's not gonna have his guys rape you like Slaanesh would.

I should note that again, Khorne doesn't care if it's at range or in melee. It kinda sucks that nowadays he is melee only, but range is still an important part. It's funny that Kharn the Betrayer is the best example of a Champion of Khorne, but for some reason nowadays he is different?

Psienesis wrote:I think what people are debating is whether or not Khornites would bother to slaughter an orphanage or if it is not considered "worthy prey" to the Blood God.

No, I don't think that's it - it seems pretty straight-forward that it should be expected that there are varying degrees and interpretations of how Khornate worship can look like.

As far as I can see - correct me if I'm wrong - the debate truly is what Khorne himself thinks about that. Of course, in 40k there is no single answer, but assuming we're going by GW material here ... I've posted quotes to support my interpretation, and if there are any to support the notion my understanding is wrong I'd like to see them.

p_gray99 wrote:I think it's more that were Khorne to have a good side, it would be this, however given that it's the grim darkness of the far future, this good side is basically nonexistant, and simply theoretical.

there is no good side ....... only a Lesser Evil

Lynata wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I think what people are debating is whether or not Khornites would bother to slaughter an orphanage or if it is not considered "worthy prey" to the Blood God.

No, I don't think that's it - it seems pretty straight-forward that it should be expected that there are varying degrees and interpretations of how Khornate worship can look like.

As far as I can see - correct me if I'm wrong - the debate truly is what Khorne himself thinks about that. Of course, in 40k there is no single answer, but assuming we're going by GW material here ... I've posted quotes to support my interpretation, and if there are any to support the notion my understanding is wrong I'd like to see them.

Agreed, I think every stance presented here is a valid method of Khornate worship. I think it's also perfectly clear that Khorne himself doesn't care in the slightest how that worship occurs (worship being people/things being killed), so long as it does.

You can punch through an enemy's skull from a mile or more, never having been seen by him, thanks to sniper rifles. You could scheme to have a whole swathe of enemies lose their head's to the executioner's axe by framing them for a crime. You can take out a city by poisoning their water supply. You can even kill the population of a whole planet with a cyclonic torpedo. And there's always sorcery ...

There are so many ways to deliver skulls to the Skull Throne and yet some are obviously not going to earn you any favor with the Blood God. Does anyone really believe killing weaklings will earn favor just because it involves swinging a chainsword? It seems to me that the weaklings just get caught up in the greater slaughter, which is genuinely about going out and fighting capable opponents. Khorne enjoys the slaughter but the killing of weaklings in and of itself is beside the point. Generally speaking, buildings also crumble when Khornate Warriors get down to their bloody business. Are we going to say that the devastation of structures -- any structure, whether a hive or child's dollhouese -- also pleases the Blood God under the ridiculous literalistic logic of "cares not from whence the blood flows"?

Skulltaker's own promotion makes this clear. All bloodletters are killing all the time. Babies, soldiers, the elderly, whoever. But Skulltaker stood out for skill as a duelist. Mindless carnage should not be overemphasized against martial prowess and skill, including tactical acumen. Bloodthirsters are noted generals as well as incredibly skilled combatants -- and it is next to these things, rather than over and above them, that we can talk about the rage and bloodlust of those greater daemons.

Manchu wrote:

There are so many ways to deliver skulls to the Skull Throne and yet some are obviously not going to earn you any favor with the Blood God. Does anyone really believe killing weaklings will earn favor just because it involves swinging a chainsword?

Yes, because it's more blood and an additional skull.

It seems to me that the weaklings just get caught up in the greater slaughter, which is genuinely about going out and fighting capable opponents. Khorne enjoys the slaughter but the killing of weaklings in and of itself is beside the point. Generally speaking, buildings also crumble when Khornate Warriors get down to their bloody business. Are we going to say that the devastation of structures -- any structure, whether a hive or child's dollhouese -- also pleases the Blood God under the ridiculous literalistic logic of "cares not from whence the blood flows"?

How is the killing of weaklings besides the point? Rather, it's just another way of accomplishing the goal of murder. Also a structure isn't a person and therefore isn't the same thing.

Skulltaker's own promotion makes this clear. All bloodletters are killing all the time. Babies, soldiers, the elderly, whoever. But Skulltaker stood out for skill as a duelist. Mindless carnage should not be overemphasized against martial prowess and skill, including tactical acumen. Bloodthirsters are noted generals as well as incredibly skilled combatants -- and it is next to these things, rather than over and above them, that we can talk about the rage and bloodlust of those greater daemons.

Skulltaker is a skilled duelist, but more importantly he murders those he duels. If all Khorne cared about was skill as a duelist, then he'd be Slaanesh, who relishes in art forms and all of the weak stuff. But Skulltaker's first action was to behead another bloodthirster. Just a mindless act of slaughter.

If Skulltaker was just a good duelist then Khorne would be massively disappointed. The fact that he so brutally slaughters his enemy is what Khorne puts his blessings on.

The problem is that putting too much emphasis on martial prowess and skill is that this is the path towards Slaanesh, and perfecting and honing that craft. Mindless is the word we're looking for.

Note that some of the Chosen of Khorne (RT era anyway) would commit suicide to offer another skull to Khorne if they hadn't killed anyone in a while!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Skulltaker is a skilled duelist, but more importantly he murders those he duels.

No, he defeats them in duels to the death. He murders those who refuse to duel.

Vladsimpaler wrote:But Skulltaker's first action was to behead another bloodthirster. Just a mindless act of slaughter.

Which didn't get him promoted ...

Vladsimpaler wrote:If Skulltaker was just a good duelist then Khorne would be massively disappointed. The fact that he so brutally slaughters his enemy is what Khorne puts his blessings on.

Nope -- it has to be both.

Manchu wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Skulltaker is a skilled duelist, but more importantly he murders those he duels.

No, he defeats them in duels to the death. He murders those who refuse to duel.

Vladsimpaler wrote:But Skulltaker's first action was to behead another bloodthirster. Just a mindless act of slaughter.

Which didn't get him promoted ...

Vladsimpaler wrote:If Skulltaker was just a good duelist then Khorne would be massively disappointed. The fact that he so brutally slaughters his enemy is what Khorne puts his blessings on.

Nope -- it has to be both.

Right...so one Bloodletter has an interesting way of killing people and this somehow is all that Khorne likes? Kharn the Betrayer is a favorite of Khorne but he hacks and slashes his way through friend and foe alike.

I've never seen any Khornate character like Skulltaker, which is why he is a special character, since what he does is pretty different. It's not the norm. This is of course also ignoring the mentions in the background of him hacking and slashing his way to his opponent.

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows.

As long as its flowing.

Orphans, guardsmen, Eldar, space marines... Whatever. Khorne DOES NOT CARE!

Khorne cares not for honor!

Homer-cles cares not for beans!

Thought on guns, does Khorne NEED you to stab people up for it to be proper worship? Surely the aforementioned sniper's bullet, or a "moar dakka" barrage from a heavy bolter into a tight packed squad would be just as pleasing.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Thought on guns, does Khorne NEED you to stab people up for it to be proper worship? Surely the aforementioned sniper's bullet, or a "moar dakka" barrage from a heavy bolter into a tight packed squad would be just as pleasing.

I think Khorne would prefer a sniper to shoot someone in a vital area that would cause them to bleed to death.

He would disapprove of a headshot because that would destroy the skull.

Okay, accepting that, I don't think there's anything stopping me from going blood for the blood god from a couple miles off with a sniper rifle, or artillery for that matter.

Carnage and warfare. These are Khorne's interests. Snipers are an aspect of warfare, though they are probably not as highly favored as the ones who get stuck in down in the sharp end where it devolves into hand-to-hand combat.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Thought on guns, does Khorne NEED you to stab people up for it to be proper worship? Surely the aforementioned sniper's bullet, or a "moar dakka" barrage from a heavy bolter into a tight packed squad would be just as pleasing.

Nope, not at all!
For some reason it keeps getting repeated, but again, Khorne doesn't care where or how the blood flows (aka the method), as long as it flows! In Rogue Trader, World Eaters Devastators (yes, Devastators!) were known as the Teeth of Khorne and are one the Imperium's most deadly foes...

Also note that at this time, Khorne would also gift his followers weapons from WH40k even if they were in the Fantasy universe. This meant that you could have a unit of Chaos Warriors with bolters, or a champion with a lascannon. Chaos Warriors were BS6 at this time, so they were uber deadly if they ever got ranged weaponry.

Testify wrote:Just for clarification - someone who massacred someone for the sheer carnal joy...khorne would not be interested in?
Chivalry and bloodlust are generally considered opposites.
And why would khorne want followers who were too weak to have everything in their favour, preferring instead to risk their lives in equal combat?

Killing for joy is Slaanesh.
And well, if you win in equal combat, thats wavy more glory and honour.

Since we've been quoting Slaves to Darkness, here's what it says in its entry on Khorne:

Khorne is the Blood God, the angry and murderous god of Chaos, one of the great four Powers. His great brass throne sits upon a mountainous pile of bones - the remains of his followers who have died in battle, and of the many they have killed in his name. The growing bone pile reflects the success of his worshippers, feeding his glory but never quenching his thirst for blood and death.

Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone within its reach, slaying both friend and foe alike. He is the Huntsman of Souls who drives the great armies of Chaos before him. His horn sounds in the depths of the Chaos Wastes, urging his followers every onwards in search of fresh prey. The gore-maddened followers of Khorne harry beyond the edges of the Known World, delighting in slaughter by the tainted light of a blood-stained moon. Khorne watches the wild destruction wrought in his name, and his bellows of rage and delight can be heard echoing across the void between worlds....

...Every life taken by a follower of Khorne increases the Blood God's power. He looks with particular favour upon those who take the lives of their friends and allies, and the more death and destruction a creature has caused, the more welcome it is as a sacrifice to Khorne. Any follower who lets a day pass without contributing to the bloody-handed slaughter by which Khorne is worshipped will incur the god's great disfavour....

... He is worshipped only in the act of killing, and his followers often fight as individuals, ignoring bonds of allegiance and common faith when it suits them to do so.

The Code of Khorne is simple: blood and more blood. The use of spells or similar powers to cause death and destruction is abhorrent to him, and he is unlikely to deal with any creature who has ever used magic.

The only way to gain favour with him is by killing - enemies or friends, all the dead are equal in the eyes of Khorne. The only way to incur his displeasure is by not killing.

-- Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, pg 17.

Hmmm so it sounds like Khorne would much prefer you slaughtering an opposing army then murdering everyone in that orphanage. Interesting.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Hmmm so it sounds like Khorne would much prefer you slaughtering an opposing army then murdering everyone in that orphanage. Interesting.

Assuming that army includes more skulls than that orphanage, of course.

He looks with particular favour upon those who take the lives of their friends and allies, and the more death and destruction a creature has caused, the more welcome it is as a sacrifice to Khorne.

Seems to imply that Khorne does have certain quality scales so leading your platoon of Khornate cultists in a surprise attack on your IG unit or PDF unit and killing them would be more appealing to Khorne even if that only netted him 50 or 60 skulls as opposed to burning down a nearby orphanage of innocents for a net gain of 100 skulls. Particularly if your IG unit has been blooded on multiple worlds. Each man you kill has probably killed hundreds himself and once counted himself as a friend/ally so you're getting a double "Khorne approved" sacrifice bonus.

Hmmm that's an interesting thought, so the more death/destruction something does, the more appealing it's skull, blood and soul are as a sacrifice to Khorne, so if you slaughter Khornate demons, themselves avatars of death many millenia old, would those potentially be a more appealing sacrifice to the blood god?

How is killing 50 or 60 soldiers "more death" than burning down an orphanage with 100 kids inside?

As I said above, I too support the idea that skulls may have different "points values" attached depending on how hard it was to get them - but your statement about how Khorne would always favour an army as opposed to an orphanage just seemed to blow that way out of proportion, especially keeping the rest of the quote in mind ("every life taken", "mindless and absolute violence", "all dead are equal", "blood and more blood").

Vladsimpaler wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Thought on guns, does Khorne NEED you to stab people up for it to be proper worship? Surely the aforementioned sniper's bullet, or a "moar dakka" barrage from a heavy bolter into a tight packed squad would be just as pleasing.

Nope, not at all!
For some reason it keeps getting repeated, but again, Khorne doesn't care where or how the blood flows (aka the method), as long as it flows! In Rogue Trader, World Eaters Devastators (yes, Devastators!) were known as the Teeth of Khorne and are one the Imperium's most deadly foes...

Also note that at this time, Khorne would also gift his followers weapons from WH40k even if they were in the Fantasy universe. This meant that you could have a unit of Chaos Warriors with bolters, or a champion with a lascannon. Chaos Warriors were BS6 at this time, so they were uber deadly if they ever got ranged weaponry.

Whilst I agree entirely, and would be delighted to see the "Teeth of Khorne" return to modern-day fluff, it's worth pointing out that not everything in Slaves to Darkness was particularly well thought-out; I'm glad, for instance, that the Librarians of the Emperor's Children are no longer said to spend their time composing witty epigrams about those they have slaughtered.

Lynata wrote:How is killing 50 or 60 soldiers "more death" than burning down an orphanage with 100 kids inside?

As I said above, I too support the idea that skulls may have different "points values" attached depending on how hard it was to get them - but your statement about how Khorne would always favour an army as opposed to an orphanage just seemed to blow that way out of proportion, especially keeping the rest of the quote in mind ("every life taken", "mindless and absolute violence", "all dead are equal", "blood and more blood").

I'm visualizing it like this:

1 skull = 1 point, Allies and Friends is a +.5 modifier and if that soul is the soul of one who's killed is another +.5 modifier for a total possible score of 2 points per soul unless you kill something that has literally been killing for millenia... ironically Kharne the Betrayer would probably be the greatest possible sacrifice to Khorne. So 50 Guardsmen souls can have the same points value as burning down an orphanage because they're boring civilians. Still fun and an amusing diversion for Khorne but quality counts over quantity on some level.

Manchu wrote:Wars are generally fought to accomplish a goal external to war itself. The belligerents want territory, resources, prestige, etc. This is not the case with Khorne. Khorne does not advocate conquest except as a matter of martial feat. Therefore, Khorne would favor she who placed the skull of a primarch (for example) before his Brass Throne over she who offered the skulls of a hundred million invalids.

The followers of Khorne are warriors, not skull farmers. They might also be generals, sure. They might also be butchers of the innocent and helpless, sure. But those are secondary considerations.

If this means they wish to attack a population where all will fight rather than one where some of the civilians will simply cower and say "not the face!" does this mean that Khornates would attack an ork world or nid ship rather than humans?

p_gray99 wrote:

Manchu wrote:Wars are generally fought to accomplish a goal external to war itself. The belligerents want territory, resources, prestige, etc. This is not the case with Khorne. Khorne does not advocate conquest except as a matter of martial feat. Therefore, Khorne would favor she who placed the skull of a primarch (for example) before his Brass Throne over she who offered the skulls of a hundred million invalids.

The followers of Khorne are warriors, not skull farmers. They might also be generals, sure. They might also be butchers of the innocent and helpless, sure. But those are secondary considerations.

If this means they wish to attack a population where all will fight rather than one where some of the civilians will simply cower and say "not the face!" does this mean that Khornates would attack an ork world or nid ship rather than humans?

No becouse the Legions are still fighting the Long War. To caouse a blow to the Imperium Is valued higher than the fight.

BloodAngels Brother wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:

Manchu wrote:Wars are generally fought to accomplish a goal external to war itself. The belligerents want territory, resources, prestige, etc. This is not the case with Khorne. Khorne does not advocate conquest except as a matter of martial feat. Therefore, Khorne would favor she who placed the skull of a primarch (for example) before his Brass Throne over she who offered the skulls of a hundred million invalids.

The followers of Khorne are warriors, not skull farmers. They might also be generals, sure. They might also be butchers of the innocent and helpless, sure. But those are secondary considerations.

If this means they wish to attack a population where all will fight rather than one where some of the civilians will simply cower and say "not the face!" does this mean that Khornates would attack an ork world or nid ship rather than humans?

No becouse the Legions are still fighting the Long War. To caouse a blow to the Imperium Is valued higher than the fight.

On the other hand, whilst the Legions are most certainly Chaos' most prominent representatives to the galaxy (or at least the fandom), they do not stand for all Khornates. Khorne's daemons, for example, give a gak about the Imperium. Unless someone in the Imperium killed them some time ago. That apparently makes them angry.

And I don't buy that "Primarch = 100.000.000 invalids" comparison for a second. Source pls.
Interestingly, Khorne does fight over territory, just that the territory he cares for lies in the Warp. It grows and shrinks in accordance to Khorne's influence over the mortal world and the power of his cultists and daemons - which might explain why "blood is blood".