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I think this all hinges on what the word "different" means. Allow me a bit of word-nerdiness.

Having looked at Abaddon again, and mulled it over, I'm rethinking this. Here's why.

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

Different: "Having characters or qualities which diverge from one another; having unlike or distinguishing attributes; not of the same kind; not alike; of other nature, form, or quality."

So, using the first bit of the definition for "difference," a unit has a different mark from Abaddon if it has "characters or qualities which diverge from one another." The use of the word "different" should not be read to mean "Does this unit have a Mark that doesn't match the HQ's mark?" but rather "Does this unit have a mark that differs from the Mark of the HQ, a Mark that the HQ does not have?"

Therefore, Abaddon can join any unit, because no unit has a Mark that differs from Abaddon's Marks.

Wraithdrad wrote:
Therefore, Abaddon can join any unit, because no unit has a Mark that differs from Abaddon's Marks.

Really?
All units have a Mark that matches the Mark of Chaos Ascendant? Or all units have all four Marks? Those are the only two ways for them not to be different.

Does a Khrone Marked Berserker unit's Mark differ from Abaddon's Mark of Nurgle? What about his Mark of Tzeentch? Or his Mark of Slannesh?

This is why I've refrained from posting on YMDC before. The last sentence of my post makes a lot more sense in the context of the *entire* post.

Wraithdrad wrote:
This is why I've refrained from posting on YMDC before. The last sentence of my post makes a lot more sense in the context of the *entire* post.

I read your entire post.
I think you're misusing/misunderstanding the rule on page 30 of the Codex.
An IC may not join a unit with a different Mark. Every Marked unit will differ in qualities from Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

So, you're saying that Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent, and that since no unit has that Mark all units with Marks will differ. Right?

I'm saying that the Mark of Chaos Ascendent is a special rule that grants Abaddon all four Marks.

If we disagreee on that, we can't even discuss how to use the word "different."

Wraithdrad wrote:
So, you're saying that Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent, and that since no unit has that Mark all units with Marks will differ. Right?

I'm saying that the Mark of Chaos Ascendent is a special rule that grants Abaddon all four Marks.

If we disagreee on that, we can't even discuss how to use the word "different."

I'll fold on that since it was a stretch and pointless stance.
Your assertion is that Adbaddon's Mark of Nurgle does not differ from a Mark of Khorne on that Berserker unit over there. Discuss.
(I say that's your assertion because an IC with a Mark may not join a unit with a different Mark - not a Mark that differs [wording matters]).
Yes, his Mark of Khorne is identical. He has other Marks that indisputably differ. Page 30 says that if they differ he cannot join.

I'm not asserting that Abaddon's Mark of Nurgle does not differ from a Mark of Khorne. I'm asserting that that's not what the rule on pg 30 is talking about. Nowhere does the rulebook say that the Marks of an IC have to match the Marks of a Unit he joins.

What does it mean for a unit to have a "different" Mark of Chaos than the IC?

Returning to my original argument, the primary sense of "different" is "having characters or qualities which diverge from one another." In context, I'm reading that to mean that the Mark of Chaos on the unit must have "characters or qualities which diverge" from those of the IC.

Crucially, the pg 30 rule cares whether or not the Mark on the Unit is different. It doesn't care whether the Mark on the HQ is different. Thus, if Abaddon joins a unit of Berzerkers, their Mark of Khorne grants them special rules. Abaddon's Mark of Khorne grants him the same special rules. Thus, the Mark on the Berzerker unit is not "different" in the way the rule specifies. Abaddon simply has extra Marks, something the rule on pg 30 doesn't even address.

The crux: "not different" does not mean "synonymous."

Why are you ignoring the other Marks?
Abandon has another Mark - you must test to see if that Mark is different from the Units as well.

Why?

The rule specifies that the Mark on the unit can't be different. It doesn't specify that the Mark on the HQ can't be different.

If the one Mark on the unit is not different from a Mark the HQ has, the rule is satisfied.

Wraithdrad wrote:
Why?

The rule specifies that the Mark on the unit can't be different. It doesn't specify that the Mark on the HQ can't be different.

If the one Mark on the unit is not different from a Mark the HQ has, the rule is satisfied.

The HQ has 4 Marks.
You've compared 1. How did you pick that one?
Why did you stop at one?

Because, as I read it, the only Mark that needs to be analyzed is the Mark on the unit.

Wraithdrad wrote:
Because, as I read it, the only Mark that needs to be analyzed is the Mark on the unit.

But you must compare it to something, right? Because you must decide if its different.
You have 4 things to compare it to on the other side of the equation.
How do you decide which one?
Why do you stop at one?

Again, because I don't read "not different" as "synonymous."

If the HQ has a Mark that is the same as the unit, the condition is satisfied. The extra Marks are superfluous.

I think we've reached rock bottom here, and it all goes back to my original post. The key issue is how you define the word "different" in the rule. If you want "not different" to mean "synonymous," Abaddon can't join any Marked unit. I'm arguing that that's a severely limited definition of "different."

Wraithdrad wrote:
Again, because I don't read "not different" as "synonymous."

If the HQ has a Mark that is the same as the unit, the condition is satisfied. The extra Marks are superfluous.

I think we've reached rock bottom here, and it all goes back to my original post. The key issue is how you define the word "different" in the rule. If you want "not different" to mean "synonymous," Abaddon can't join any Marked unit. I'm arguing that that's a severely limited definition of "different."

The condition is not satisfied because pg makes no mention of the two Marks having to be the same.

PG 30 is only concerned with "different" Marks, Abby has 4 Marks, unit has 1, automatically he will 3 Mark are "different."

The rule cares whether the Mark of the unit is different, not whether all the Marks of the HQ are the same.

And this is the point where I give up. My argument is plastered all over the page, and I won't bother repeating bits of it anymore.

Make the call that you want. Just be aware that the way one reads the word "different" isn't a clear cut issue.

An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.

The question is when they say "a" Mark of Chaos are they talking about a single mark (as all other IC's would have) or any mark (as Abbadon only would have).

Grammar, it's hard dudes.

But I suggest reading the first page. Like.. really. You are beating a very dead horse, and using only a flimsy English stick to do so. Have some respect.

So pg. 30 seems to be the only place I can find which provides anything useful in terms of marks and IC's. Verbatim, because the devil is in the details:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

That's it, nothing more. Any argument which states anything along the lines of " but (x) unit doesn't also have (y) Mark of Chaos" is folly, as the rule in question does not talk about units joining IC's with a different mark, nor does it provide a catch-all statement, such as "In addition, the IC may not have another Mark of Chaos the unit he joins does not have".

I grant that the area is in need of clarification. However, GW was kind enough to get rid of the "Ascendant" icon, and actually state he has all of the Marks of Chaos. As such, most can admit the following truths (lets use Noise Marines again):

1. Does the IC Abaddon have a Mark of Slaanesh? Yes
2. Do Units of Noise Marines have a Mark of Slaanesh? Yes
3. Does Abaddon also have marks of Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch? Yes
4. Does Abaddon having marks of Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch stop him from having a Mark of Slaanesh? No
5. Does the rule on pg.30 require anything beyond the IC having the same Mark of Chaos as the Unit it joins? No
6. Is there a restriction on Units joining IC's with a different Mark of Chaos? No, as Units do not join IC's; IC's join Units.
7. Is there an explicit rule which says an IC with more than one Mark of Chaos may not join Units? No

In my opinion, RAW is not explicit enough to say Abaddon is not allowed to join any unit he wishes.

I say we just look at the wording in other languages where it translates to "an IC cannot join a marked unit unless the unit has the same mark" until the faq like the old chaos faq that made the DP a FMC.

Or you apply common reasonable sense like you always do when playing with toys.

redacted.

 jegsar wrote:
I say we just look at the wording in other languages where it translates to "an IC with a markcannot join a marked unit unless the unit has the same mark" until the faq like the old chaos faq that made the DP a FMC.

Or you apply common reasonable sense like you always do when playing with toys.

That's how I'd fix it, because unmarked lords can join marked units.

I agree with Wraith.

I look at it like this. I'm a father, brother, uncle, and nephew. If I sign up for a special group that's specifically for father's and fathers only, they aren't going to exclude me because I'm someone's brother, uncle, or nephew. I fulfill the requirement that I be a father.

The same thing applies for the mark restriction. If Abaddon joins a unit of Khorne Bersekers, he meets the requirement that he has the same mark as they do. The other marks no longer apply because the requirement to have the matching mark is fulfilled. The other marks don't cancel out.

It baffles me that people are arguing this, even in YMDC. Well, not if you consider that some people want to argue the smallest, niggling detail until they are blue in the face because they haven't anything better to do.

 kcwm wrote:
he meets the requirement that he has the same mark as they do. The other marks no longer apply because the requirement to have the matching mark is fulfilled. The other marks don't cancel out. .

Except the rue doesn't say they have to have the same mark, it says they cannot have a different mark.

Happyjew wrote:
An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.

The question is when they say "a" Mark of Chaos are they talking about a single mark (as all other IC's would have) or any mark (as Abbadon only would have).

They are obviously talking about "a" single mark.

The condition that needs to be satisfied is the HQ must have "a" mark of chaos.

Abaddon has "a" mark of chaos so that condition is met. Actually he has all of them but that is insignificant in reading this rule.

The second condition is a model can not joint a unit with a different mark of chaos.

Since Abaddon has all the marks of chaos there is no way possible for him to ever join a unit with a different mark of chaos.

There is no other literal way to read this rule.

This problem is easily solved by applying boolean algebra.

Kevlar wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.

The question is when they say "a" Mark of Chaos are they talking about a single mark (as all other IC's would have) or any mark (as Abbadon only would have).

They are obviously talking about "a" single mark.

The condition that needs to be satisfied is the HQ must have "a" mark of chaos.

Abaddon has "a" mark of chaos so that condition is met. Actually he has all of them but that is insignificant in reading this rule.

The second condition is a model can not joint a unit with a different mark of chaos.

Since Abaddon has all the marks of chaos there is no way possible for him to ever join a unit with a different mark of chaos.

There is no other literal way to read this rule.

This problem is easily solved by applying boolean algebra.

Except there is. When he joins a unit with a Mark of Khorne, that Mark is different from his Make of Nurgle.
Explain why you don't compare all 4 Marks. Explain how you pick which Mark to compare.

rigeld2 wrote:

Except there is. When he joins a unit with a Mark of Khorne, that Mark is different from his Make of Nurgle.
Explain why you don't compare all 4 Marks. Explain how you pick which Mark to compare.

You are trying to apply the inverse of the rule, which is not what the rule states. The rule does not care one bit what extra marks the character has. That is not in any way part of the condition of satisfying the rule.

An Independant Character with "A" mark of chaos may not join a unit with "A different" mark of Chaos.

There is no way possible for Abaddon to join a unit with a different mark of Chaos than his since he has all marks of chaos.

If the unit had all marks of chaos then there would be no way for say a Khorne lord to join that unit, but that isn't the situation here, now is it.

Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He wants to join a unit with a Mark of Khorne.
You're allowing that.

Why?

rigeld2 wrote:
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He wants to join a unit with a Mark of Khorne.
You're allowing that.

Why?

Read the rule. Him having the mark of nurgle has no bearing on him joining a unit with the mark of khorne. As long as he has the mark of khorne the rule is satisfyed. But you seem to want to repeatedly ignore that.

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He wants to join a unit with a Mark of Khorne.
You're allowing that.

Why?

Read the rule. Him having the mark of nurgle has no bearing on him joining a unit with the mark of khorne. As long as he has the mark of khorne the rule is satisfyed. But you seem to want to repeatedly ignore that.

S the unit having a different Mark is a-okay?

I'd like to point out the guy who quoted the oxford definition of different picked out one part of the definition and ignored the rest of it. Thanks for the laugh there.

There is a very good reason GW doesnt want Abby in a marked unit. They don't want Abby to benefit from Icons. Imagine him with FNP what a deathstar that would be. So just suck it up and stick abby in a unit of unmarked chosen he just made troops.

--
Yes they are talking about "a" single mark. The unit can't have a single mark that's different from a single mark that Abby has.