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 Tarrasq wrote:

I'd like to point out the guy who quoted the oxford definition of different picked out one part of the definition and ignored the rest of it. Thanks for the laugh there.

There is a very good reason GW doesnt want Abby in a marked unit. They don't want Abby to benefit from Icons. Imagine him with FNP what a deathstar that would be. So just suck it up and stick abby in a unit of unmarked chosen he just made troops.

--
Yes they are talking about "a" single mark. The unit can't have a single mark that's different from a single mark that Abby has.

You are right, no unit in the chaos codex can ever have a different mark than Abaddon has, because he has all of them.

Also, if "they" don't want Abaddon to have FNP they better take away his champion of chaos rule, and make him immune to beneficial psychic powers.

But I suspect "they" is really just "you".

Except they do have a different Mark because the unit cannot have all of them.

You're assuming that a single Mark satisfies the rule and that no further comparisons are made. You haven't backed that up with a reason other than to mock me.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except they do have a different Mark because the unit cannot have all of them.

You're assuming that a single Mark satisfies the rule and that no further comparisons are made. You haven't backed that up with a reason other than to mock me.

The rule says "A". I don't know how else to back that up. It only cares about "A" single mark, that is all you need to satisfy the rule.

Are you interpreting the rule saying "All" his marks must match the unit?

If so that would be an incorrect interpretation.

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except they do have a different Mark because the unit cannot have all of them.

You're assuming that a single Mark satisfies the rule and that no further comparisons are made. You haven't backed that up with a reason other than to mock me.

The rule says "A". I don't know how else to back that up. It only cares about "A" single mark, that is all you need to satisfy the rule.

Are you interpreting the rule saying "All" his marks must match the unit?

If so that would be an incorrect interpretation.

And I can point to "A" Mark that the unit has different from the IC. Every time, without fail.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except they do have a different Mark because the unit cannot have all of them.

You're assuming that a single Mark satisfies the rule and that no further comparisons are made. You haven't backed that up with a reason other than to mock me.

The rule says "A". I don't know how else to back that up. It only cares about "A" single mark, that is all you need to satisfy the rule.

Are you interpreting the rule saying "All" his marks must match the unit?

If so that would be an incorrect interpretation.

And I can point to "A" Mark that the unit has different from the IC. Every time, without fail.

And you would be reading the rule backwards, again.

Kevlar wrote:
And you would be reading the rule backwards, again.

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Either I can point to a Mark the unit has different from the IC, or I can point to a Mark the IC has different from the unit. Either way, there's a difference.

Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. You're allowing him to join that unit with a Mark of Khorne. The IC in this example has a different Mark from the unit, and yet you're allowing him to join.

Rigeld is right on this one, with the way the rules currently are.

I don't see why the leader of the Black Legion is restricted to Non-cult choices. I know fluff and gameplay are often on two seperate planes, but the all power HQ in the Codex restricted to joining most of your units just seems weird.

I don't see it being any stronger than most armies tossing their main HQ in a powerful squad. Preferred Enemy Space Marines does make him more powerful, but he's not as strong as he used to be.

Power has nothing to do with it. I think he probably SHOULD be allowed to join them. But when I read the rules it becomes apparent that he currently can't.

The difference is,
The rule isint "A model must have the same mark"
Its "The model CANT have a different mark" So while he does have the same marks as every unit, he also has different marks from any unit.

It would be different if the rule required him to have the same mark.

This has to be the silliest arguement in rule application

All fluff aside here is what the entry says:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

Abaddons Mark entry says this verbatim:
"He also has all four marks of chaos."


Example: Abby is planning to assault a unit of Terminators armed with power fists. In the movement phase he moves into coherency with a unit of berzerkers. Abaddon has the mark of khorne... the berzerkers have the mark of khorne. Abaddon has successfully moved into coherency with the berzerkers

Anyone need anymore examples?

Lets stop trying to something that isnt there save our breath. We all know what is going to happen in a few months time, as we see Abby jumping from berzerkers, to rhubric marines, to noise marines, to plague marines as he pleases. Just play abaddon as he is supposed to played the Warmaster of Chaos.

Throwing in my two cents.

By pure RAW, it seems pretty clear (to me) that Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant is 'different' from other marks, both in that no other unit has access to the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, and in that Abaddon will always have three Marks that are different from the unit he is joining. However, it also seems pretty clear (again, to me) that Abaddon is intended to be able to join any unit he damn well pleases (else why give him INDEPENDENT Character status). Feel free to argue about it until faces (fingers?) turn blue, that's how I plan on playing it in my local group.

Fluff-wise, one could also argue that as the master of the Black Legion, his focus is on all the powers, and that he wouldn't hang out with a unit devoted to just one of them.

It could also be intended as a limit on him, balance-wise. They've certainly given Chaos unnecessary limitations and drawbacks elsewhere in the book.

The problem isnt with the Independent character... the problem is with the unit. Can Kharne join a unit of plague marines? no because the plague marines have a different mark than kharne does. That is how the rule is written. So it is written, so shall it be done.

"You smell like Khorne, eww."

The application of the rule on pg 30 continues to misunderstood.

The rule on pg 30 does not grant an IC permission to join a group because they both share the same Mark, that permission is already granted via the IC rules as per the BRB.

The rule on Page 30 is a RESTRICTION to the BRB IC rules.

If Abby moves into within 2" of any marked unit, you do not check to see if the unit has that same Mark as Abby, you check to see if the unit has a Mark that differs from Abby and the answer to that question will always be yes because he has all four. Therefor Abby must remain 2 or more inches away from any marked unit.

At least until a new FAQ comes out.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

Example: Abby is planning to assault a unit of Terminators armed with power fists. In the movement phase he moves into coherency with a unit of berzerkers. Abaddon has the mark of khorne... the berzerkers have the mark of khorne. Abaddon has successfully moved into coherency with the berzerkers

Anyone need anymore examples?

The berserkers do not have a Mark of Nurgle, therefore the unit has a different Mark then the IC has.

As for intent - I see arguments for both sides of how it "should" be played.

40k-noob wrote:

If Abby moves into within 2" of any marked unit, you do not check to see if the unit has that same Mark as Abby, you check to see if the unit has a Mark that differs from Abby and the answer to that question will always be yes because he has all four. Therefor Abby must remain 2 or more inches away from any marked unit.

Exactly... he has all four marks... the criteria isnt that the independent character has a different mark than the unit (what you are referencing by him having all four)... what matters is that the unit cannot have a different mark than him...

"The berserkers do not have a Mark of Nurgle, therefore the unit has a different Mark then the IC has."

again this is a poor example and holds no water. Berzerkers are not equipped with that mark... nor can they be given that... the point of the refernce focus' on what they do have... not what they dont have... they have the mark of khorne. Having the mark of khorne is not different in any way shape or form to and independent charcter having the mark of khorne...

 WarlordRob117 wrote:


Exactly... he has all four marks... the criteria isnt that the independent character has a different mark than the unit (what you are referencing by him having all four)... what matters is that the unit cannot have a different mark than him...

Actually the criteria is that the IC has a different mark.

"An IC with a mark of chaos cannot join a unit with a different mark of chaos"

Replace the words "mark of chaos" with "mark of Nurgle" for example.

Then replace the words "different mark of chaos" with "mark of Khorne".


Now it reads "An IC with a mark of Nurgle cannot join a unit with a mark of Khorne"


It is clear that it does not matter if the IC has the same mark. Only thing that matters is that does the IC have a different mark. If he does, he cannot join the unit.

Sigh... how do you kill, that which has no life?

That is not what the codex says... I just referenced it from page 30 of the codex sitting right in my lap as I type you this.

There is no punctuation error, there is no language barrier. Regardless of what language, the sentence structure states that the Independent character (object of interest) has a mark of chaos. It then goes on to say that he/she cannot join a unit that has a different mark than him/her (possessive). Abaddon has the Mark of Khorne, The Mark of Tzeentch, The mark of slaanesh, and the mark of nurgle. He has allllllllll fooooooooouuuuur of them. This means that as long as the unit he wants to join has the same mark he does, he can join them...

chances are if you cannot process this tiny bit of info, it really doesnt matter because in a month or two you will be shown the light from the GW officials and you'll no choice but to accept that read far too much into things and try to see something that isnt there... take a deep breath and relax... at they arent as rough as necrons lol

"A model or unit may only purchase one Mark of Chaos. An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit
with a different Mark of Chaos. pg 30 C: Chaos Space Marines

Beings Abigail has MoK,MoN,MoT,MoS I could see him having a hard time joining any marked unit.

For example Abby tries to join Plague Marines, however he has Marks of T/K/S as well as N which prevent him from joining. It appears as an IC can only join if it's N to N, S to S, etc.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

This means that as long as the unit he wants to join has the same mark he does, he can join them...

That is absolutely not what it means.

In fact that is the exact opposite what it means.

Warlord - you have parsed the exact opposite meaning out of that sentence to what is written.

Abby has MoK, MoN, MoS, MoT. He tries to join a unit with MoK.

Is MoK different to MoK? No
Is MoN different to MoK? Yes. Stop. He cannot join.

Too bad sentence structure is lost on some people...

This is Abby attempting the action:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join"

This is the unit that is being joined:
"a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

its a simple sentence stating that an independent character cannot join a unit that has a different mark than he does.
It makes too much sense people.

either way Im tossing in the towel... if you dont get it, its because you dont want to understand and want to make the game difficult for everyone. have fun drinking crushed glass

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Too bad sentence structure is lost on some people...

This is Abby attempting the action:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join"

This is the unit that is being joined:
"a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

its a simple sentence stating that an independent character cannot join a unit that has a different mark than he does.
It makes too much sense people.

either way Im tossing in the towel... if you dont get it, its because you dont want to understand and want to make the game difficult for everyone. have fun drinking crushed glass

Ok than your Logic

Abby will be our IC.
Our unit will be Khorne Besterkers.

Abby has MoN, Zerks have MoK. Abby cannot join because the unit has a different mark.

WarlordRob117 wrote:Too bad sentence structure is lost on some people...

Yes, you apparently.

WarlordRob117 wrote:This is Abby attempting the action:
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join"

Yes, and he has 4 marks

WarlordRob117 wrote:This is the unit that is being joined:
"a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

Any unit he joins WILL have a different mark of chaos to Abby, as Abby has MoN and Khorne Bezerkers have MoK. If you decide to only loiok at Abbys MoK, why? You certainly have no rules allowance to do so.

WarlordRob117 wrote:its a simple sentence stating that an independent character cannot join a unit that has a different mark than he does.
It makes too much sense people.

Yes, and Abby will always have a differnt mark to any unit he joins. Always

It is VERY simple, so not quite sure how youre managing to mangle it.

WarlordRob117 wrote:either way Im tossing in the towel... if you dont get it, its because you dont want to understand and want to make the game difficult for everyone. have fun drinking crushed glass

Nope, as amply proven you have failed in parsing a simple sentence

"Any unit he joins WILL have a different mark of chaos to Abby, as Abby has MoN and Khorne Bezerkers have MoK. If you decide to only loiok at Abbys MoK, why? You certainly have no rules allowance to do so."

Who says you do? you have no rules stating you cant apply it as such... look its easy, we'll even use fingers, and we only need four.

You guys wanna use mark of nurgle right? cool cool no problem

he wants to join a unit of berzerkers right? even better

cant join them because of mark of nurgle right? gotcha too easy...

does he have another other marks? oh he does you say? what else does he have?

He also has mark of tzeentch? does that help? certainly not

What about the mark of slaanesh? wont do either huh? thats cool

Does he have the mark of khorne? no? oh you said yes? so that would mean he and the berzerkers have the same mark? Imagine that....

gosh I should be an elementary school teacher woot!

enjoy your tea and crumpits and take a chill pill buddy...

So, again you have managed to make up rules

You cannot join a unit with a different mark to the IC

Abby has MoN. That is different (as in, not the same thing - in case you have misunderstood what "different" means) to the MoK on the Bezerkers.

Meaning he cannot join. Done.

You have no rule allowing you to only consider the marks he has that are the same as the unit. THe criteria is that he has a different mark and, if so, he cannot join. Once this criteria is met he cannot join.

You should not be an elementary school teacher, certainly not in parsing simple English sentences, as you have ignored the actual rule and replaced it with something you made up.

didnt actually do that, you must not like how simple a thought process it is...

doesnt really affect me since I dont use the character, but Im gonna LMAO, long, hard, and loud when you know exactly whats going to happen happens. but thats ok, you said done. That must mean the conversations over.

and whats with parsing? you must be from birmingham

It does not require him to have the same mark

It prohibits him if he has A (singular) different mark. He will always have 3 different marks. He is never aloowed to join a marked unit.

He has K, T, N, S

to join a K unit he cannot have N, T, S
to join a T unit he cannot have N, K, S
to join a S unit he cannot have N, T, K
to join a N unit he cannot have T, K, S

now do you understand the issue? He cannot have A (singular again) different mark, he has 3 different, he is prohibited 3 times.