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You may have been confusing "too good" with "only good thing", my friend : ]

 daedalus wrote:
I think that the problem here is that people are not realizing just how amazing FMC are. Crazy amounts of movement, 1 in 6 chance of hitting the damn thing, and it can drop out of flying to assault at any round? Sign me up.

Some other food for thought. A lot of people have been lamenting 'losing' their 2 DPs that they ran with their CSM army. As that was the automatic build that everyone took, doesn't that maybe mean that DP were a little too good?

They get grounded too easy. All you need are 3 gakky units to shoot and 'hit' and they are down and probably taking a wound. I would much rather be taking a flyer that can vector strike than a 230 pt. flying DP. Of course, I am probably just too risky flying them into enemy lines where they can get shot... however it really doesn't take much. A few stormbolters from drop pods... some markerlights....

Taking 2 DP's was the only good HQ build in the last codex that thanks to T5 Eternal warrior, wouldn't just die to a missile shot.

And now we don't even have that, in fact the only eternal warrior unit in the book is Abaddon.

Daemon Princes were ridiculously good in 5th, and we all know it.

Have you guys considered that GW may be trying to balance the books? Unlikely, but it has to start somewhere after all.

And if you don't like the book, go counts as. I've seen plenty of Chaos Counts as BA, SW and C:SM.

 Meade wrote:


They get grounded too easy. All you need are 3 gakky units to shoot and 'hit' and they are down and probably taking a wound. I would much rather be taking a flyer that can vector strike than a 230 pt. flying DP. Of course, I am probably just too risky flying them into enemy lines where they can get shot... however it really doesn't take much. A few stormbolters from drop pods... some markerlights....

You have a 5.5% chance of getting hit and grounded by a shot, assuming no skyfire. You can also take invul saves against that S9 hit, meaning that your odds of getting hit and then wounded from the S9 grounding hit(assuming 5++) is 3.7%. If you're letting 3 units snapshot into your 24" moving death machine, then I'd say you are just a little too risky.

On the topic of point costs, I pay 230 for a flying Hive Tyrant. I don't have a CSM codex with which to compare the DP stats from on me right now, but I'm pretty sure the only thing the Tyrant has going for it over the DP is the S6. I still have to dump 15-30 more points into the Tyrant to make him decent.

Taking 2 DP's was the only good HQ build in the last codex that thanks to T5 Eternal warrior, wouldn't just die to a missile shot.

Was the only great build. You still had Abbadon. I actually saw a sorcerer or two occasionally, but I agree that those weren't really worth it.

Really, they just did the thing they do in every codex: Knee-jerk the best thing way back and make all the other stuff better. It's done rather blatantly in Nids.

I'd bet raptors are actually somewhat worth taking now. I wouldn't know, not owning the 6th ED codex, but it's a fairly safe bet that they got at least somewhat better.

 daedalus wrote:
I think that the problem here is that people are not realizing just how amazing FMC are. Crazy amounts of movement, 1 in 6 chance of hitting the damn thing, and it can drop out of flying to assault at any round? Sign me up.

Exactly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Meade wrote:
Taking 2 DP's was the only good HQ build in the last codex that thanks to T5 Eternal warrior, wouldn't just die to a missile shot.

Lack of EW is valid as a complaint, imo.

 daedalus wrote:


You have a 5.5% chance of getting hit and grounded by a shot, assuming no skyfire. You can also take invul saves against that S9 hit, meaning that your odds of getting hit and then wounded from the S9 grounding hit(assuming 5++) is 3.7%. If you're letting 3 units snapshot into your 24" moving death machine, then I'd say you are just a little too risky.

Maybe, but considering that most small arms are 24-36 inches, and the Prince is mainly a CC machine and needs to fly close to do anything, it is hard to avoid this. Your math is incredibly misleading, btw. Yes one shot has that chance, so what? A clearer way of putting it is to say: you need 3 units, all of which put out about 6 shots or 3 twin linked (disregarding skyfire), and you will on avg. ground a daemon prince, a little less than 2/3 chance to wound him. That is not super reliable. Most armies can put out those small arms shots and unless you hide in the corner and do nothing, you will eat them.

On the topic of point costs, I pay 230 for a flying Hive Tyrant. I don't have a CSM codex with which to compare the DP stats from on me right now, but I'm pretty sure the only thing the Tyrant has going for it over the DP is the S6. I still have to dump 15-30 more points into the Tyrant to make him decent.

The Hive Tyrant is more of a beast, hands down. For 230 pts you get T6 (huge difference between T6 and T5), and you have the option to pay for an armored shell, and you get psychic powers on the biomancy chart for free.

Any way you go about this, you just won't see DP's on the field anymore, if it's not a beer-and-pretzels type game that is. For 250 pts. I could ally with a Bloodthirster, w/ T6, EW, 3+,4++ sv, or a Lord of Change, w/bolt to shoot down fliers, T6, EW, 3++ save. Who would not take those instead? And you could still take Lords or Sorcs. in your primary detachment to boot....

Was the only great build. You still had Abbadon. I actually saw a sorcerer or two occasionally, but I agree that those weren't really worth it.

Really, they just did the thing they do in every codex: Knee-jerk the best thing way back and make all the other stuff better. It's done rather blatantly in Nids.

I think DP's are still marginally useable and you can do some fun things with them. I'm happy to play with this codex, there are plenty of things I think are awesome but is it anywhere near perfect? No.

Nor should people complain when they build their list around the most uber-spammy thing they can get, and the new codex comes and invalidates it. If you play the game the way GW wants you to play it, just collecting things you think are cool and building your army around a theme that's fun, you might be somewhat protected from these things.

For instance, I just built what I thought was cool, I put huge blades on my rhinos. Now the codex came out, score! There are rules for that. I built some spawn that I hardly used last book, now score! I can use them.

You're just spanking it, man.

I don't want to see Special Characters turning into spawns (or Princes, for that matter), but there is no reason to try and suggest they be able to decline challenges. It's an army wide rule for all characters and ICs and is quite frankly fluffy and a cool mechanic. Since every squad comes with a built in champion now you don't have to worry too much about them being forced into disadvantageous challenges - just let the flunkie soak it up and move on.

Your army wide rules are lul. Give my troops infiltrate & stealth for a flat points cost? No limitations? That's just stupid. Should only be for Chosen / CSM and should be a points cost per squad or model basis, not a flat rate. Same goes for the other variants which should be restricted to fluffy armies that are actually asking for them aka Raptors = troops only for Nightlords and such.

I can't even begin on the rest. GL HF

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Daemon Princes were ridiculously good in 5th, and we all know it.

Have you guys considered that GW may be trying to balance the books? Unlikely, but it has to start somewhere after all.

And if you don't like the book, go counts as. I've seen plenty of Chaos Counts as BA, SW and C:SM.

So why start with an army already suffering from lack of fluff and then removing said fluff? Heck, most people are upset because of the same things, even the ones who enjoy the new codex such as myself, still think that a lot of unnecessary things happened for no reason... For instance, why do we have to buy arms for our CSMs? literally, they dont have CCW? You have to buy them a meatball-beater... even at 2points per model it was a complete waste to have written down... There was simply no reason to have it in there... CSMs still dont have a 5models = 1 SW and havocs are still useless over groups of 5 =/

They removed Lesser Daemon swarming and DS Swarming via said Lesser Daemons... Warp Talons (although albeit very pretty model) have an extremely useless ability to attempt a forced mishap upon the squad.. Why would you risk the suicide?.. Why would you encourage it? Blind isn't worth having your entire squad sent to the other end of the board, nor simply destroyed in a catastrophic event similar to being hurled into a sun =/

Sorry, forgot to add, *if you want to start balancing out the codecis, start with GKs...

 Meade wrote:

Maybe, but considering that most small arms are 24-36 inches, and the Prince is mainly a CC machine and needs to fly close to do anything, it is hard to avoid this. Your math is incredibly misleading, btw. Yes one shot has that chance, so what? A clearer way of putting it is to say: you need 3 units, all of which put out about 6 shots or 3 twin linked (disregarding skyfire), and you will on avg. ground a daemon prince, a little less than 2/3 chance to wound him. That is not super reliable. Most armies can put out those small arms shots and unless you hide in the corner and do nothing, you will eat them.

How do you get 24-36 inches for small arms fire? I would think specifically 12-24 as small arms range, as that's the long range for, well, small arms. Not sure where you're getting the extra 12" from. So then, the DP gets to choose what type of flying he is at the start of his movement, right? Okay, he moves up while doing whatever the FMC version of zooming is, up to the, say, 17"-19" mark. A squad now gets 10 shots on your DP, but in reality, it could be more like 8-9, depending on your sarge and if you packed that meltagun or that plasma gun. We'll assume 10 though. Your average at BS1 is 1.6 hits. Your first standard deviation gives you .5 to just over 4 hits. Those aren't too hard to resist with a grounding test.

With regards to the fact that you seem to think it's a problem that 3 units shooting into a DP will tear it up, I'm not sure how to respond. Frankly, I can't really think of anything that 3 full units firing into wouldn't tear to shreds. That's not a problem with the DP.

The Hive Tyrant is more of a beast, hands down. For 230 pts you get T6 (huge difference between T6 and T5), and you have the option to pay for an armored shell, and you get psychic powers on the biomancy chart for free.

Any way you go about this, you just won't see DP's on the field anymore, if it's not a beer-and-pretzels type game that is. For 250 pts. I could ally with a Bloodthirster, w/ T6, EW, 3+,4++ sv, or a Lord of Change, w/bolt to shoot down fliers, T6, EW, 3++ save. Who would not take those instead? And you could still take Lords or Sorcs. in your primary detachment to boot....

I don't have a CSM codex on me right now to compare bit for bit, but for the fact that there really isn't that much S10 in the game, I think that the panic about it getting instakilled is really overblown. Also, if I pay for the (expensive) armored shell on the flyrant, I can't take wings. Finally, I have no invul save on the Flyrant, which is probably at least as huge a difference as there is between T5 and T6.

Just some random brain-farting (new stuff to fix some of the "odd things"):

CHAOS ARTEFACTS

Armour of the Eternal War – 25 points: A model can replace his power armour with the Armour of Eternal War. Confers a 3+ armour save and the Eternal Warrior special rule.

Kai Gun – 25 points: This is a ranged weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
18” User D6 Assault X*
*The Kai Gun gets one shot for every Attack on the profile of the user.

Mark of Malal – 15 points: Chaos Lords only. The character gains +1WS, +1I, +1W and the Hatred (Chaos) and Preferred Enemy (Chaos) special rules. He confers these special rules to any unit he joins. However, the character cannot roll on the Chaos Boon table for any reasons and counts as having a Mark (so he cannot take other Marks or join units with any of the Marks).

Rune of the Exalted – 25 points: Gives +1 to the character’s rolls on the Chaos Boon table.

Staff of Change (Mark of Tzeentch only) – 35 points: This is a melee weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
- +2 4 Melee, Daemon Weapon, Concussive
It can be also used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
12” 8 1 Assault 1, Transmutation
Transmutation: A model wounded by the Staff of Change’s ranged profile must immediately succeed on a Toughness test or it is removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed and is replaced by a Spawn under the Chaos player’s control. Treat it as if the model would suffer a ‘Spawnhood’ result on the Chaos Boon table.

The Blissgiver (Mark of Slaanesh only) – 40 points: This is a melee weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
- User 2 Melee, Daemon Weapon, Instant Death

Daemon Orb – 20 points: This is a ranged weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
6” 10 1 Assault 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot!, One Use Only

Machirepator – 30 points: Warpsmith only. The Machirepator may be used once per battle, at the beginning of the player’s own turn. Choose a non-flyer vehicle within 12” of the Warpsmith: the vehicle is immediately restored to full Hull Points and repairs all Immobilised and Weapon Destroyed damage results.

Chroxnoss Fleshmetal – 35 points: Warpsmith only. Weapons with an Armour Piercing value of 2 cannot penetrate the Warpsmith’s armour – he can take armour saves against these weapons as normal. In addition, weapons with the Fleshbane or the Poisoned special rule could only wound the Warpsmith on a roll of 6, regardless of their Strength or special modifier.

MARKS OF CHAOS

Mark of Undivided Chaos – 2 points per model/20 points: Models with the Mark of Undivided Chaos have the Adamantium Will and Night Vision special rules. Additionally, a Psyker with the Mark of Undivided Chaos must generate at least one of his powers from the Undivided Discipline (see below).

ICONS OF CHAOS

Icon of Chaos Glory – 10 points: Units with the Mark of Undivided Chaos only. When determining assault results, add two to your total for each friendly units with an icon of chaos glory locked in that combat. This bonus stacks with the normal +1 provided by the presence of Chaos Icons.

Icon of Deception – 20 points: All models in a unit equipped with an icon of deception have the Infiltrate and Acute Senses special rules.

UNDIVIDED DISCIPLINE:

Primaris Power - WARP LIGHTNING
Warp Charge 1, Witchfire
Range Strength AP Type
18” 8 5 Assault D6

1-2 - MINDSCOURGE
Warp Charge 1, Focused Witchfire
Range Strength AP Type
6” 6 2 Assault 1, Ignore Cover Saves, Psybane
Psybane: Enemy Psykers hit by the Eye of Chaos reduce their Mastery Level by 1 (to the minimum of 0) for a full Game Turn.

3-4 -WARPTIME
Warp Charge 1, Blessing
The psyker may re-roll any dice as long as this power is in effect

5-6 - DARK SUMMONING
Warp Charge 2, Conjuration
Range 12”, roll on the table below to determine the type and composition of the summoned unit:
2D6|Summoned Unit
2 2D6 Cultists with autopistols and close-combat weapons
3 2D6 Cultists with autoguns
4 2D3 Spawns
5 1D3+2 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns
6 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a flamer
7 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a heavy bolter
8 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a meltagun
9 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a missile launcher (with frag and krak missiles)
10 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a plasma gun
11 1D6 Possessed
12 1D6 Warp Talons

So basically buff everything while costing less or tacking on a tiny amount of points for the increase? I would never play anything like this. You got a new codex and it isn't stupidly overpowered and broken. Boo hoo.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Daemon Princes were ridiculously good in 5th, and we all know it.

Have you guys considered that GW may be trying to balance the books? Unlikely, but it has to start somewhere after all.

And if you don't like the book, go counts as. I've seen plenty of Chaos Counts as BA, SW and C:SM.

GoliothOnline wrote:
So why start with an army already suffering from lack of fluff and then removing said fluff?

Never said anything about fluff bro.

Heck, most people are upset because of the same things, even the ones who enjoy the new codex such as myself, still think that a lot of unnecessary things happened for no reason... For instance, why do we have to buy arms for our CSMs? literally, they dont have CCW?

The Space marines would like a word with you. They can use Bolters and Pistols, but the mystery of the close combat weapon is beyond a humble tactical marine.

You have to buy them a meatball-beater... even at 2points per model it was a complete waste to have written down... There was simply no reason to have it in there...

well there is if you want them to have that +1 attack for CCW+ Pistol. MoK squads would use it quite nicely.

CSMs still dont have a 5models = 1 SW and havocs are still useless over groups of 5 =/

Havocs were always useless above 5 dudes. Far too expensive, and they were never a "competitive" choice. And I thought the 5th ED codex allowed five dudes and a meltagun kind of squads. If that's changed then it seems irritating, but nothing to get your pants in a knot over.

They removed Lesser Daemon swarming and DS Swarming via said Lesser Daemons

Take allies then?

Warp Talons (although albeit very pretty model) have an extremely useless ability to attempt a forced mishap upon the squad.. Why would you risk the suicide?.. Why would you encourage it? Blind isn't worth having your entire squad sent to the other end of the board, nor simply destroyed in a catastrophic event similar to being hurled into a sun =/

Then don't use it. I'm not sure on how blind works, but if it's that bad then don't use it, or don't take Warp Talons. Use them as raptors instead.

Sorry, forgot to add, *if you want to start balancing out the codecis, start with GKs...

**codecise.

Wow, a pop at Grey Knights. How original. Newsflash, codex creep isn't new. people complain about it, then when a balanced book comes out (i.e. there's no gimmick that's immediately found) people get butthurt. GW really can't do right by anyone, can they? It's too early to complain about this. Maybe in a month or two when no one can win a game as Chaos then your tears will be validated.

I applaud any effort of creativity but feel it may be better spent on how to make it work?

Anything new I tend not to like because it is change and I do not know it. I see many try to change things and suffer from "over adjustment" and break more things.

It appears balanced to the point that nothing "leaps out at you" as a must pick choice.

To play nice my suggested changes:

Cost a plain Defiler the same as a Leman Russ or a very slight markup.

Remove the "cannot fire the same weapon in the next turn" for Obliterators OR give them the skyfire missiles for the same price or no-one may pick these guys again.

GoliothOnline wrote:

Sorry, forgot to add, *if you want to start balancing out the codecis, start with GKs...

They did this already. It was called 6th edition.

 daedalus wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

Sorry, forgot to add, *if you want to start balancing out the codecis, start with GKs...

They did this already. It was called 6th edition.

Oh yeah because GK are really balanced now

They ALL still get Deny The Witch at at least +1, their power weapons were nerfed just about as much as every other army's, and their melee in metal boxes got nerfed as much as other armies, right?

 felixander wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

They did this already. It was called 6th edition.

Oh yeah because GK are really balanced now

They ALL still get Deny The Witch at at least +1, their power weapons were nerfed just about as much as every other army's, and their melee in metal boxes got nerfed as much as other armies, right?

Wrong. Their power weapons and metal boxes were nerfed the same way as every other army. It's disingenuous to say as much. It's subtle, but there's a difference. The only other vehicle that got nerfed as much as the GK ones are Eldar Falcon with Holo-Fields.

GK relied on armor ignoring weapons in melee to make up for the lack of AP2 outside of henchmen. Now, that functionality is removed. Additionally, for as obnoxious as Fortitude could get in 5th, it's now a minor thing that I frankly wish I could remove to get my 5 points back.

And a 16.6% improved chance to resist a PSA: Is that really something to be that upset about?

At any rate though, this isn't supposed to be about GK. Start a new thread if you think we should bicker about GK. This is supposed to be about indestructible Daemon Princes, Eternal Warrior for peanuts, and getting free models with zero drawback.

 daedalus wrote:

 felixander wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

They did this already. It was called 6th edition.

Oh yeah because GK are really balanced now

They ALL still get Deny The Witch at at least +1, their power weapons were nerfed just about as much as every other army's, and their melee in metal boxes got nerfed as much as other armies, right?

Wrong. Their power weapons and metal boxes were nerfed the same way as every other army. It's disingenuous to say as much. It's subtle, but there's a difference. The only other vehicle that got nerfed as much as the GK ones are Eldar Falcon with Holo-Fields.

GK relied on armor ignoring weapons in melee to make up for the lack of AP2 outside of henchmen. Now, that functionality is removed. Additionally, for as obnoxious as Fortitude could get in 5th, it's now a minor thing that I frankly wish I could remove to get my 5 points back.

And a 16.6% improved chance to resist a PSA: Is that really something to be that upset about?

At any rate though, this isn't supposed to be about GK. Start a new thread if you think we should bicker about GK. This is supposed to be about indestructible Daemon Princes, Eternal Warrior for peanuts, and getting free models with zero drawback.

They get Daemonhammers for free which have been FAQed to being AP2.

BUT I'll agree with the last part of what you said. This thread should be about how the Chaos Codex isn't broken enough and needs to be buffed into oblivion!

 Sephyr wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As has been noted, you want a FMC with way more options than any other in the game to also be cheaper than any other in the game. I'm afraid there's nothing we can add; that's crazy.

Let me introduce you to the Dreadknight. It has less options than the DP mostly because it comes out of the gate with an armor save and Invulnerable save that no DP can match however many points you sink into it, and also higher Toughness and Leadership. The only point in which it loses to a DP is that it can never be a flying MC; it is superior in every other regard, and usually far cheaper than a Daemon Prince.

Worse WS, worse I, less attacks and the same Invulnerable Save as a Daemon Prince. With a Personal teleporter it's 205 points, which is not "far cheaper" than a Daemon Prince with PA and wings. You also missed out the insignificant part about Daemon Princes having access to Biomancy.

CSMs don't need fixed, you just need to learn to play the new Codex.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
CSMs don't need fixed, you just need to learn to play the new Codex.

Alright what part of the damned proposed rules thread don't people understand..... you know what I'm done, if a MOD can lock this thread that would be great because people don't know how to read and its not worth my time. I know I originally created this topic but if every 3rd post is like this there's no point... thank you.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
CSMs don't need fixed, you just need to learn to play the new Codex.

Alright what part of the damned proposed rules thread don't people understand..... you know what I'm done, if a MOD can lock this thread that would be great because people don't know how to read and its not worth my time. I know I originally created this topic but if every 3rd post is like this there's no point... thank you.

I wonder why ever 3rd post is saying that.. ..... OH because maybe it's true!

I understand that you aren't happy with it but that doesn't mean it needs changes, and as everyone is saying, the changes you're trying to put in are ridiculously over powered and undercosted. If you truly want to make changes to play with your local group then first wait a week or so for everyone to stop whining about how the new Dex isn't over powered as they wanted it, then really sit down and present reasonable changes for people to review. When you say you want to make everything even better for minor or even REDUCED costs... you're setting yourself up for this. The new Codex is definitely competitive and seems like it will be fun.

Just because a Codex is new and (seemingly) balanced doesn't mean that it can't be improved or changes suggested.

Even this brand new Codex has units and options that are clearly weak and could be improved, or large factions that are poorly represented and could be better accounted for.

I'm not saying I agree with the OP's suggestions (particularly on the Prince) but there is already room for improvement and changes in the new Codex IMHO.

My suggestion: don't work on a codex to replace the current one, make something new to represent something more specific like Codex: thousand sons or Codex: Alpha legion. And some entries would refer to the normal chaos codex, like the ones for loyalists do. It wouldn't step on so many toes and still get the job done.... and easier to justify to people you want to play with, because it's more of a fan-made expansion to what GW puts out.

 daedalus wrote:

How do you get 24-36 inches for small arms fire? I would think specifically 12-24 as small arms range, as that's the long range for, well, small arms. Not sure where you're getting the extra 12" from. So then, the DP gets to choose what type of flying he is at the start of his movement, right? Okay, he moves up while doing whatever the FMC version of zooming is, up to the, say, 17"-19" mark. A squad now gets 10 shots on your DP, but in reality, it could be more like 8-9, depending on your sarge and if you packed that meltagun or that plasma gun. We'll assume 10 though. Your average at BS1 is 1.6 hits. Your first standard deviation gives you .5 to just over 4 hits. Those aren't too hard to resist with a grounding test.

Small arms fire = bolters firing 24", hvy bolters, fire warriors, big shootas, etc. Anything that's twin linked every shot has a 1/3 chance to hit.

Every unit that hits with at least one shot has 1/3 chance to succeed in grounding. So 3 units firing that many shots will probably ground him. That's my math.

With regards to the fact that you seem to think it's a problem that 3 units shooting into a DP will tear it up, I'm not sure how to respond. Frankly, I can't really think of anything that 3 full units firing into wouldn't tear to shreds. That's not a problem with the DP.

 Meade wrote:


That is what it takes to ground him, at which point he's probably taking a wound. Not 'tear him up' (your words not mine). It's not much.

So you're not arguing that they would even wipe him out or cause serious damage, merely that they would ground him? Frankly, I would HOPE three units could. Again, if you think three units firing all of their guns into one model shouldn't be able to register some sort of effect on that single model, I'm really not sure what to say at this point. Otherwise, welcome to Codex: Tyranids.

it's not overblown. I play Tau quite a bit, you have plenty of S10 in CC, you have Vindicators, you have a huge amount of Necron Doom Scythes out there. All Necrons have to do is ground the daemon prince, Which is mad easy for necrons with all their little guns sticking off their vehicles, and hit it with a Death Ray.

And have all of those guns in right places. The board is a big place, and sure, 24" is a pretty big bubble, but you move 24" every round if you want. Sounds like you might be getting outmanuvered by slower units.

T6 is huge, it's what MC's should get. T5 is weak. T5 means you can be taken out by bolters and lasguns, not to mention the S5 stuff. T6, you at least need 6's to wound.

Lasguns have the same odds to turn T5 as T6. Otherwise you're right. Bolters have a slightly improved chance to hit T5 vs T6.

Okay even without armored shell, you get T6 and 2 Biomancy powers for the same cost as, DP with no powers? No the invl sv does not make up for that. It still leaves the DP vulnerable to small arms and S10.

We might have to agree to disagree on this part. You can count on your 5+. I can't count on having the biomancy powers I hope I'll have for that game.

I've used Daemon Princes as FMC's using the 6E rules and now using the new Chaos rules, and so far I am not impressed at all. Making one that's halfway decent with psychic powers costs the same as Abaddon... who does so much more for his points. Again, there's just nothing to justify not taking a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change instead now. And taking a flyer is so much more reliable due to the derpy grounding tests and better guns to fire from the air with.

Okay, well, NOW we're getting somewhere. Were you playing against Tau at the time? Did he actually get IDed? What all happened with him?

 daedalus wrote:

So you're not arguing that they would even wipe him out or cause serious damage, merely that they would ground him? Frankly, I would HOPE three units could. Again, if you think three units firing all of their guns into one model shouldn't be able to register some sort of effect on that single model, I'm really not sure what to say at this point. Otherwise, welcome to Codex: Tyranids.

He's flying. I could be taking a flyer, or a tank, and it would be impossible for those same units to do anything. So no, it depends what units are firing at what. Guys with little flashlight laser guns can't do anything to a land raider, can they? But they can hurt my DP by grounding, and he costs more than a land raider. Yeah, I realize there's more manouverability with FMC's. But compared to what's out there, DP's just cost so much and are not focused enough in their roles.

And have all of those guns in right places. The board is a big place, and sure, 24" is a pretty big bubble, but you move 24" every round if you want. Sounds like you might be getting outmanuvered by slower units.

The issue is more that I need to get close in order to get into CC, or fly over the enemy for vector strike, for my DP to be effective. You can stay 24 inches away from the enemy, and do what? cast your gakky pyschic powers that a sorcerer could do for half the price?

We might have to agree to disagree on this part. You can count on your 5+. I can't count on having the biomancy powers I hope I'll have for that game.

You would trade 2 biomancy powers and t6 for a 5+ invul? Not a great trade. You use the armor to make your saves most of the time anyway. Most of the time anti-tank stuff is focused on other things, and DP's die to small arms fire, plasma and autocannons.

Okay, well, NOW we're getting somewhere. Were you playing against Tau at the time? Did he actually get IDed? What all happened with him?

 Meade wrote:

He's flying. I could be taking a flyer, or a tank, and it would be impossible for those same units to do anything. So no, it depends what units are firing at what. Guys with little flashlight laser guns can't do anything to a land raider, can they? But they can hurt my DP by grounding, and he costs more than a land raider. Yeah, I realize there's more manouverability with FMC's. But compared to what's out there, DP's just cost so much and are not focused enough in their roles.

That's exactly how I felt when I found how new Nids were max T6. It's frustrating, but I've coped with it. Just one of those inadequacies of MCs. Believe me, you're preaching to the choir here, but fixing that calls for revamping MCs, not just bandaging DPs.

The issue is more that I need to get close in order to get into CC, or fly over the enemy for vector strike, for my DP to be effective. You can stay 24 inches away from the enemy, and do what? cast your gakky pyschic powers that a sorcerer could do for half the price?

I was assuming it would be possible to find a place such that a minimum of the opponent's army can fire upon you for occupying. The 12"+2d6 move/assault on the turn you drop out of flying helps also.

You would trade 2 biomancy powers and t6 for a 5+ invul? Not a great trade. You use the armor to make your saves most of the time anyway. Most of the time anti-tank stuff is focused on other things, and DP's die to small arms fire, plasma and autocannons.

For better worse, yeah, I think I would for the most part. A lot of biomancy is great assuming you have to survive long enough to get into melee. The trick is managing that second part. And there is nothing for anti-tank to focus on EXCEPT MCs in a Nid army.

I guess it's just a matter of perspective. I wonder how far having two DPs would go as far as disarming small arm target opportunity.

Was playing Tau, did not get IDed, because he was lucky enough to get Iron Arm (there was allied farseer with runes of warding). Otherwise would have been. And I had to swoop him in from reserve in the corner of the board just to avoid the quad-gun. He took out one squad of Suits and then died to various things, including perils. He did not come close to making his points back. I came close to winning the game turn 5 but lost as it went on to turn 6. Would have been better off taking more Nurglespawn. They are T6 at least.

I think I could maybe still use DP's, but I wouldn't take much upgrades at all and use him in a list that has a lot of other fast, hard hitting stuff so he's not alone... but even then I'm probably better off with a biker lord or something.

Death by perils is annoying. That's always been one of the things that's annoyed me about daemons: Why do they even have perils? Frustrating that you didn't do better, but I guess with a quad-gun and Tau, you've kind of got the deck stacked against you (never thought I'd be saying that about Tau). I'd be interested to see how well two DPs do against a situation like that, not that I'm demanding you run them or anything.

I know how you feel about FMC. I've literally had my Nids bounce off a Meched up BA list, causing literally no casualties because they were able to shoot my Flyrants out of the sky and then nothing else could get close enough to cope. The point of the anecdote though was that I was counting on the Flyrants to get close enough to be able to start hitting the mech before everything else moved in, and it ended up being folly because those were target priority because they were the only thing in immediate range of causing harm. FMC are awesome until they get hit, then everything starts to go to pieces. I think there's a particular amount of finesse that is required in using them, much like most subpar HQs nowadays (hi Crowe!), and it's just much easier to write them off and go for that 80 point sorcerer or some other obviously simpler to use unit, but I still don't think that means that you have to make the guy who is situationally awesome always awesome, because then he becomes situationally broken.

 daedalus wrote:

That's exactly how I felt when I found how new Nids were max T6. It's frustrating, but I've coped with it. Just one of those inadequacies of MCs. Believe me, you're preaching to the choir here, but fixing that calls for revamping MCs, not just bandaging DPs.

Death by perils is annoying. That's always been one of the things that's annoyed me about daemons: Why do they even have perils? Frustrating that you didn't do better, but I guess with a quad-gun and Tau, you've kind of got the deck stacked against you (never thought I'd be saying that about Tau). I'd be interested to see how well two DPs do against a situation like that, not that I'm demanding you run them or anything.

I know how you feel about FMC. I've literally had my Nids bounce off a Meched up BA list, causing literally no casualties because they were able to shoot my Flyrants out of the sky and then nothing else could get close enough to cope. The point of the anecdote though was that I was counting on the Flyrants to get close enough to be able to start hitting the mech before everything else moved in, and it ended up being folly because those were target priority because they were the only thing in immediate range of causing harm. FMC are awesome until they get hit, then everything starts to go to pieces. I think there's a particular amount of finesse that is required in using them, much like most subpar HQs nowadays (hi Crowe!), and it's just much easier to write them off and go for that 80 point sorcerer or some other obviously simpler to use unit, but I still don't think that means that you have to make the guy who is situationally awesome always awesome, because then he becomes situationally broken.

Yes, it's a problem I have with the FMC grounding tests mainly, I feel they should be more like 1/6 to fail, or you take them when you actually take a wound. But they could just make the wings cheaper and I'd be happy with that. I could run two DP's, of course, but they are so expensive we are talking about 1/4 of my army right there, just in those DP's. Even if one gets into combat that's what, one unit he kills before he dies to massed bolter fire? I mean I used to run them with Lash and just flew around staying relatively safe in the air, that was somewhat viable but no more, sadly. Like I said, there's always exceptions and ways to make things work but I really have the feeling that DP's are for fun games now and when I really need something I can rely on to win, I will just balk at taking them. For now I have no choice those are the models I have so I will use them.

My Suggestions:


HeadQuaters
Characters in general: Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles and Sorcerers(master 1-2) are 3 for 1 HQ choice.

Warpsmiths get preferred enemy vehicles and cost 10 points more.
Can take bikes(20pts)

Dark Apostles: at the begging of a chaos turn can force any unit with ATSSNF within 12" to take a ld test on 3d6, if they fail they lose ATSSNF until the start of the next chaos turn.
Can take jump pack(15pts) or terminator amror(20pts)

Sorcerers can only be masterly lvl 2.

Add in a Greater Sorcerer with +1 BS, +1 W, +1A and masterly lvl 2 for 105pts, can upgrade to lvl3 for 25 points, same options as sorcerer.

DP, benefit from marks, EW and nothing else.

Elite
Mutilators: Increased unit size to 5. Make Fearless. Increased base invunerable save to 4++(meaning MoT would have 3++)

Possessed should cost 23ppm not 26.

Bezerkers cost to 17ppm

Noise Marines cost to 16 ppm, blastmaster to 20 ppm.

plague marines 25ppm (Sorry)

TSons to 21ppm

Chosen: reduce cost of special close combat weapons. Single weapons by 5 pts, pair by 10 points. (30 points for a pair of lightning claws, seriously?)

Troops
Cultists should be able to exchange pistol and CCW for an autogun for free

Fast Attack
Bikes costs UPPED to 21ppm(sorry) and VotlW to 2ppm

Raptors cost reduced to 16ppm and VotlW to 1ppm

Spawn to 35ppm (Sorry)

Warptalons. scatter only 1d6 when DSing, come with grenades(frag, krak, and defensive)

Helldrake to 150pts or Vector strike to str9. Its a giant mechanical firebreathing robot, if it hits it is gonna tear something up.

HeavySupport
Forgefiend base cost to 150 points

Mauler fiend assault grenades.

Defiler AV13 on the front

Oblitorators, +1ld, still not fearless




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spartan089 wrote:

Special Rules

Chosen Sons of Chaos: Special characters are immune to the daemon prince/spawn rolls on the chaos boon table in addition to being able to decline challenges.

Chaos Lords and Sorcerers may purchase the following army wide special rules (Special characters may not); only one special rule may bought per army list:

Darkness approaches: troops have the fear & night vision special rules - 35 points

From the shadows: troops have the stealth & infiltrate special rules - 45 points

Scorch the earth: chaos bikers may be taken as troop choices - 65 points

Death from above: chaos raptors may be taken as troop choices - 55 points

fear is worth more than 35 points for a universal special rule. not everyone is SM.
Stealth alone is worth WAY more than 45 points for a universal special rule

I prefer to keep things congruant with the current, chaos lord gets the mark to unlock things.
all upgrades are 15points and cannot be combined with marks and cannot join marked units.

night lords: night vision on lord, raptors are troops, if warlord ALL units get night vision, automatic fear warlord skill

word bearers: zealot special + crusader special rule, cultists do not give up VP if killed, if warlord all champions can add +1 to one die on the chaos boon roll.

alpha legion: infiltrate, stealth(on lord only), non zombie cultists can infiltrate(not CSM), if warlord automatic infiltrate warlord skill

iron warriors: preferred enemy vehicles. 1 demon engine can be taken as troops, if warlord may shatter defenses on any terrain, including purchased terrain and not in enemy deployment zone.