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 Manchu wrote:
Being accused of rape is not really as unlikely as getting hit by a meteor or mauled by a tiger at the zoo. Can you please reign in the rhetoric a bit?

You can dismiss Testify's point that written consent is no less problematic than verbal but how about addressing his point that "not raping is pretty damn easy" might be merely conclusory?

Ok. Secret formula for not being a rapist:

-Only have sex with people who are in state of mind where they can consent. They're not black-out drunk, high on drugs, asleep or underage.
-You are not threatening, blackmailing, restraining (without getting consent to do so), or otherwise preventing the person from withdrawing consent.
-Only have sex with people who clearly communicate they wish to be having sex. This can either be verbally "Please [Censored] me, until I [Censored] all over your [censored]" or in some other fashion, such as vigorously and enthusiastically thrusting their genitals into/on your own.
-If you're having sex and someone appears to become withdrawn during the act, stays still, becomes quite or otherwise ceases whatever confirmation of consent you were getting before stop the sex and re-confirm they are giving consent. "Are you OK" ,"would you like me to keep going". If you receive an affirmative response, continue to the activity. If you get no response, or a negative response stop.

-If you feel your self incapable of doing any of the above, don't have sex.

Congratulations, you are now a not-rapist.

I'm sure that's just how a lot of rapists remember it happening.

What's with pretending that it's impossible for someone to be the victim of a false rape accusation?

It's happened once or twice, according to my Google-fu.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm sure that's just how a lot of rapists remember it happening.

Not really. Rapists will tend to self-report failing to do one or more of those things when you leave the word "Rape" out of the survey. That is, if you ask a rapist something like "Have you ever had sex with someone while she was totally blacking out?" he'll say yes. If you ask him "Have you ever used alcohol to rape someone" that same person with say no (obviously). In either case he doesn't see himself as rapist and will likely cry about her pulling the presto-chango should anyone ever come forward on it, even though he clearly is a rapist.

Honestly the "accidental rape" trope is part of what's doing so much damage. If only 6% of men commit rape/sexual assaults, how are as much as 20% winding victims of rape or sexual assault? It's that these dudes have multiple victims. These sorts of predators are habitual offenders who go unreported, because this odd sort of skepticism and shame some folks seem to insist on approaching rape victims with.

EDIT: Even if they did think they went through all those steps, it still doesn't' change anything.. If you're able to delude yourself into thinking someone is fething you with a passion while they're lying their wishing it would stop, you're as dangerous as any knife-wielding maniac out there.

 Monster Rain wrote:
What's with pretending that it's impossible for someone to be the victim of a false rape accusation?

It's happened once or twice, according to my Google-fu.

Hey it's happened once or twice, it's the big issue here!

I'm not saying it's impossible, certainly human beings have done all sorts of twisted things to each other including willful, knowing false accusations of all stripes. That said some things happen infrequently enough that it isn't really something you or people you're advising should be worried about it. It's certainly not at all a useful perspective to be coming at the issue of rape from.

I'm not sure I understand your point about the "accidental rape trope" in relation to serial or "predator" rapists. It seems to me that cases in which the alleged perpetrator is the only common denominator between two otherwise unrelated incidents of sexual assault is not what we're talking about. Nor are we really talking about the incidence of all rape. The issue here is sexual contact involving people of middle school through college age.

 Chongara wrote:
Hey it's happened once or twice, it's the big issue here!

"Once or twice" was a deliberate understatement for rhetorical effect.

I think you knew that, though.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not sure I understand your point about the "accidental rape trope" in relation to serial or "predator" rapists. It seems to me that cases in which the alleged perpetrator is the only common denominator between two otherwise unrelated incidents of sexual assault is not what we're talking about. Nor are we really talking about the incidence of all rape. The issue here is sexual contact involving people of middle school through college age.

A woman will be far less likely to report a sexual assault if she feels any of the following true:

A) She will be called a liar.
B) She will be told she was "Asking for it"
C) She will otherwise face shame for making the report.


The "Accidental Rape' trope plays heavily into A & B particularly B. She hears about "Oh some guy had sex and later the girl decides she didn't want to, what a bitch." and she's afraid of being seen that way, it's a real fear. Making a rape accusation hardly has zero social costs for the victim (again all the more reason not to make false accusations). Because of this women are far less likely to report being sexually assaulted than they would if things like the "Accidental Rape" trope weren't so commonplace. When the rape doesn't go reported, it has no chance of being pursued . When it isn't pursued the predator is free to rack up more victims and continue his habitual assaults unhindered.

This is particularly true in exactly the age range you're talking about. Where people are frequently exposed to risk factors (such as alcohol), are in close-knit social circles with plenty of opportunity for shame, and these young women are less secure and confident than they might be later in life. It's the perfect recipe for under reporting, and therefore easy habitual offending by the small group of predators.

Is being accused of a crime falsely horrible? Yes. Should it be treated as seriously as any other crime when it comes to light? Yes. Should we close our minds to the possibility of it happening? No.

Is it prevalent enough to warrant any special kind of fixation on that point "Warn your sons before they go out"? No. Especially when this particularly cultural nuggets is already exaggerating an existing problem.

To clarify, you mean that people in this age range are at greater risk of underreporting rape not that they are at greater risk of being raped?

Why are such trivialities as rape, abortion and gay marriage considered major issues? Leave rape the way it was, allow abortions to anyone who wants one, and let gays marry. Then we can start tackling real issues, like the environment, the economy, the educational system, unemployment, alternative energy, etc.

 Manchu wrote:
To clarify, you mean that people in this age range are at greater risk of underreporting rape not that they are at greater risk of being raped?

My understanding is that it is both, at least when it comes to the sort rape that people try to sweep away as "Accidental". Particularly for college-aged women. The thing is that the low amount of formal reports or complaints (relative to the total number of actual assaults), makes it easier for further assaults to take place, thus also making the risk of assault higher than it would be if it was reported better. The first problem feeds the second.

The incidence of both rape and false rape need to be compared with the overall rate of sexual relations that happen naturally and pleasantly for both partners, which is millions of times a week.

False rape certainly occurs, but the rate of prosecution and conviction is far lower than for actual rape.

In fact you are probably more likely to be a victim of male rape than of false female rape.

I think that's immaterial, KK. The perceived problem is not specifically or even primarily conviction on a false accusation but rather just the overall social costs of being accused. The incidence of false accusation is actually poorly understood despite strong claims ITT to the contrary. But in the absence of a compelling picture of incidence, there has grown up a culture of fear. I won't deny the misogynistic overtones it entails much less attempt to excuse them. At the same time, simply rejecting the concern is really foolish.

The concern needs to be qualified: women are not out to get men and men are not out to get women. That has to be a first principal. As things stand, there is also a misandrous culture of fear that every man is potentially a rapist and I think our understanding of the incidence of actual rape is at least a bit better than that. As Chongara points out, we're almost always talking about patterns of behavior not some once-in-a-lifetime misunderstanding when it comes to actual rape.

Going back to the politician's remark, the idea that "some women rape easy" can certainly be seen as an attack on women generally. It fits into the "women are out to get us" mentality that, if we're honest, is pretty ubiquitous. His dad was saying, a woman that you want to marry is the only one you can trust as far as sexual intimacy is concerned. But what I keep coming back to is, what if this isn't actually an issue of fear or hatred of women and it's actually just a matter of concerned parenthood. So, for example, had that father been talking to a daughter, it's not a stretch to imagine him saying "some boys just want to use you so it's best not to have sex until you're married." I guess that statement could fit into a ubiquitous "men are out to get us" mentality. But with that one, we seem more willing to say that the real concern is parental rather than misandrous.

I propose that it is not immaterial.

If the incidence of happy sexual relations is several orders of magnitude higher than the incidence of rape, and the incidence of rape is several orders of magnitude above the incidence of false rape accusation, then men have little to worry about.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I propose that it is not immaterial.

If the incidence of happy sexual relations is several orders of magnitude higher than the incidence of rape, and the incidence of rape is several orders of magnitude above the incidence of false rape accusation, then men have little to worry about.

Depends on the statistics though. US reports pop 20% - 25% of women have reported being raped in their lives. Thats a big damn number.

 Chongara wrote:


-Only have sex with people who are in state of mind where they can consent. They're not black-out drunk, high on drugs, asleep or underage.

Whoops. That's 90% of social events right there, especially amongst people who're sexually active.

 Chongara wrote:

-You are not threatening, blackmailing, restraining (without getting consent to do so), or otherwise preventing the person from withdrawing consent.

So again, only do something to someone once you have their explicit permission. That's...not terribly erotic.

 Chongara wrote:

-Only have sex with people who clearly communicate they wish to be having sex. This can either be verbally "Please [Censored] me, until I [Censored] all over your [censored]" or in some other fashion, such as vigorously and enthusiastically thrusting their genitals into/on your own.

Except a)Someone can rub themselves on you and still not want to have sex, b)some people, as already demonstrated, prefer it happening without them initiating it.

 Chongara wrote:

-If you're having sex and someone appears to become withdrawn during the act, stays still, becomes quite or otherwise ceases whatever confirmation of consent you were getting before stop the sex and re-confirm they are giving consent. "Are you OK" ,"would you like me to keep going". If you receive an affirmative response, continue to the activity. If you get no response, or a negative response stop.

Depends how into it you get...you may not always notice if the person you're with isn't "into it".

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I propose that it is not immaterial.

If the incidence of happy sexual relations is several orders of magnitude higher than the incidence of rape, and the incidence of rape is several orders of magnitude above the incidence of false rape accusation, then men have little to worry about.

Depends on the statistics though. US reports pop 20% - 25% of women have reported being raped in their lives. Thats a big damn number.

Oh god, I'm seeing Frazzled as the voice of reason in a thread. I think I may have a panic attack.

 Chongara wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I propose that it is not immaterial.

If the incidence of happy sexual relations is several orders of magnitude higher than the incidence of rape, and the incidence of rape is several orders of magnitude above the incidence of false rape accusation, then men have little to worry about.

Depends on the statistics though. US reports pop 20% - 25% of women have reported being raped in their lives. Thats a big damn number.

Oh god, I'm seeing Frazzled as the voice of reason in a thread. I think I may have a panic attack.

Agreed. When Frazzled is the voice of reason, its time to hide in a corner and start muttering "There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place..."

This thread has been really difficult for me to follow; are people really dis/agreeing or just misunderstanding one another? So, regarding Frazzled's response that up to 1/4 of women have reported being raped, I don't think KK is suggesting that rape is a less significant problem than we imagine but rather that, from a man's perspective, it is far more likely than not that the sexual encounters he experiences will not involve rape much less false accusations of rape. (Of course, that's not what I objected to, either: I objected to the idea that the allegedly minuscule incidence of conviction on false accusation is material.) And Frazzled, what do you think that 1/4 of all women reporting rape says about the overall incidence of rape? And what do you think that means with regard to what percentage of the population is doing the raping? We need a little more info before sagely nodding and patting each other on the back, I think.

 Manchu wrote:
This thread has been really difficult for me to follow; are people really dis/agreeing or just misunderstanding one another? So, regarding Frazzled's response that up to 1/4 of women have reported being raped, I don't think KK is suggesting that rape is a less significant problem than we imagine but rather that, from a man's perspective, it is far more likely than not that the sexual encounters he experiences will not involve rape much less false accusations of rape. (Of course, that's not what I objected to, either: I objected to idea that the allegedly minuscule incidence of conviction on false accusation is material.) And Frazzled, what do you think that 1/4 of all women reporting rape says about the overall incidence of rape? And what do you think that means with regard to what percentage of the population is doing the raping? We need a little more info before sagely nodding and patting each other on the back, I think.

Agreed.
To your points.
1. there is the always the chance of false accusations. It has occurred in the past. That is why the legal system with "reasonable doubt" as the legal standard is excellent. Assuming an intentional false accusation: I'd proffer thats actually really low, especially in the US.

2. To the statistic noted. I hope hope hope that is overstated in a major way, BUT A. I fear its not dramatically overstated; B. One is one damn too many.

3. I believe in absolute capital punishment for the crime.

According to the always reliable statistics found on Wikipedia the 2010 rate for rape in the United States is 27.3 per 100,000 of the population. (I would assume that 100,000 counts both men and women, so it the majority of rapes are male on female then you could probably imply that the rate is actually higher if you only take women into consideration.)

Now other statistics say that between 75-95% of rapes go unreported, and if that is correct then we have a number that is not looking very pretty and we could end up with 400-500 rapes per 100,000 of the population, which is still only 0.5% of people. Now even if you assume that almost all rapes are male on female and that half the population is female that would "only" end up with 1% of the population getting raped if you try to adjust the numbers for women and unreported rapes.

But then other statistics and studies at colleges come up with anywhere between 10-25% of women reporting being raped at some point in their lives, and another study found that 4.7% experienced rape or attempted rape each year. Which is a very different number than the rapes/100,000 people. Of course statistics are very hard to make sense of sometimes, and methods can lead to very different results.

Other studies find that 1 out of 6 women will experience some form of sexual assault, including childhood abuse. Which should make us wonder how something like this could be this prevalent. Does this include women who feel like they have been assaulted? Almost 50% of rapes involve alcohol by both parties, so while things might have gotten hot and steamy the woman could easily be quietly saying "no....no..." and the guy just keeps going. Which could easily result in a woman not reporting it because she 'knows' that "I was drunk, I took him home, everybody is going to say it was my fault, we made out, I didn't mean for it to lead to sex, but who will believe me". So for legal purposes and for the way she feels, it could very easily be rape to her.

Which is why we need a lot of education of young guys that no = no.

Anyway, glad this didn't get locked, good discussion going on.

Okay but what about:

- If 25% are reporting rape, how many are being raped overall (i.e., reporting and non-reporting)? I'm not asking for an exact figure but a ballpark -- are we talking 30% or 50% or 65% or more?

- Whatever number you come up with for the above, what percentage of the population do you think is responsible? (again, ballpark)

Same questions for Chongara and whoever else cares to weigh in.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I propose that it is not immaterial.

If the incidence of happy sexual relations is several orders of magnitude higher than the incidence of rape, and the incidence of rape is several orders of magnitude above the incidence of false rape accusation, then men have little to worry about.

Depends on the statistics though. US reports pop 20% - 25% of women have reported being raped in their lives. Thats a big damn number.

That seems ludicrously high, are you telling the truth? Hard to read the truth in the eyes of a wiener dog. Especially one with a penchant for trolling.

I doubt it's that high in many other places...

 d-usa wrote:
According to the always reliable statistics found on Wikipedia the 2010 rate for rape in the United States is 27.3 per 100,000 of the population. (I would assume that 100,000 counts both men and women, so it the majority of rapes are male on female then you could probably imply that the rate is actually higher if you only take women into consideration.)

Now other statistics say that between 75-95% of rapes go unreported, and if that is correct then we have a number that is not looking very pretty and we could end up with 400-500 rapes per 100,000 of the population, which is still only 0.5% of people. Now even if you assume that almost all rapes are male on female and that half the population is female that would "only" end up with 1% of the population getting raped if you try to adjust the numbers for women and unreported rapes.

But then other statistics and studies at colleges come up with anywhere between 10-25% of women reporting being raped at some point in their lives, and another study found that 4.7% experienced rape or attempted rape each year. Which is a very different number than the rapes/100,000 people. Of course statistics are very hard to make sense of sometimes, and methods can lead to very different results.

Other studies find that 1 out of 6 women will experience some form of sexual assault, including childhood abuse. Which should make us wonder how something like this could be this prevalent. Does this include women who feel like they have been assaulted? Almost 50% of rapes involve alcohol by both parties, so while things might have gotten hot and steamy the woman could easily be quietly saying "no....no..." and the guy just keeps going. Which could easily result in a woman not reporting it because she 'knows' that "I was drunk, I took him home, everybody is going to say it was my fault, we made out, I didn't mean for it to lead to sex, but who will believe me". So for legal purposes and for the way she feels, it could very easily be rape to her.

Which is why we need a lot of education of young guys that no = no.

Anyway, glad this didn't get locked, good discussion going on.

Your stats don't work. Thats per year, and as noted reported in a specific category (and its wiki). Other stats show much, much higher levels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 4oursword wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I propose that it is not immaterial.

If the incidence of happy sexual relations is several orders of magnitude higher than the incidence of rape, and the incidence of rape is several orders of magnitude above the incidence of false rape accusation, then men have little to worry about.

Depends on the statistics though. US reports pop 20% - 25% of women have reported being raped in their lives. Thats a big damn number.

That seems ludicrously high, are you telling the truth? Hard to read the truth in the eyes of a wiener dog. Especially one with a penchant for trolling.

I doubt it's that high in many other places...

Why on earth would I be trolling? I have a wife and a daughter.
I have no interest in the stat being high, indeed, it would be an epic wish it were low (better nonexistent).
I'd pull stats but am at work.

 Manchu wrote:
Okay but what about:

- If 25% are reporting rape, how many are being raped overall (i.e., reporting and non-reporting)? I'm not asking for an exact figure but a ballpark -- are we talking 30% or 50% or 65% or more?

I may have misread Frazzled, earlier. My understanding is that around 20% (perhaps just under) of women experience a rape or major sexual assault at some point their lives. The formal reporting of this, say to authorities is much lower, while reporting rates in anonymous studies or other places women feel protected are closer to the actual numbers.

If you include inappropriate behavior that doesn't reach the level of rape or a major assault I'd wager the number gets damn high (majority of women). Dude copping a feel, or being too forceful etc.. Though that particular thought is just my opinion. It's not based on anything I've heard by way of a study or whatever.

- Whatever number you come up with for the above, what percentage of the population do you think is responsible? (again, ballpark)

5-6% of the population according to what I've seen in the past. They're usually repeat offenders, admitting to 5-7 rapes each which matches well with the numbers above assuming some are repeat victims. I've seen some numbers that went as high as 12%, however those tended to be numbers that looked at narrower populations such as military recruits and I didn't put much stock in them personally.

I

 d-usa wrote:
... it could very easily be rape to her.

There's that issue again, which is the central one. In some ways, we're not really concerned about statistics and probabilities (thanks for reminding us that they don't necessarily help) but rather matters of definition, like how material a victim's perception of assault is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chongara wrote:
Though that particular thought it is just my opinion. It's not based on anything I've heard by way of a study or whatever.

It sounds like a reasonable opinion to me. Generally, I think we have a lot of unwanted, sexualized contact (whether verbal or physical) and that reality, quite apart from statistical analysis, reporting, or convictions, is what motivates parents to tell their girls that boys will rape them and tell their girls that boys will accuse them of rape (one can imagine, even within the same household).

 Chongara wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Okay but what about:

- If 25% are reporting rape, how many are being raped overall (i.e., reporting and non-reporting)? I'm not asking for an exact figure but a ballpark -- are we talking 30% or 50% or 65% or more?

I may have misread Frazzled, earlier. My understanding is that around 20% (perhaps just under) of women experience a rape or major sexual assault at some point their lives. The formal reporting of this, say to authorities is much lower, while reporting rates in anonymous studies or other places women feel protected are closer to the actual numbers.

If you include inappropriate behavior that doesn't reach the level of rape or a major assault I'd wager the number gets damn high (majority of women). Dude copping a feel, or being too forceful etc.. Though that particular thought it is just my opinion. It's not based on anything I've heard by way of a study or whatever.

- Whatever number you come up with for the above, what percentage of the population do you think is responsible? (again, ballpark)

5-6% of the population according to what I've seen in the past. They're usually repeat offenders, admitting to 5-7 rapes each which matches well with the numbers above assuming some are repeat victims. I've seen some numbers that went as high as 12%, however those tended to be numbers that looked at narrower populations such as military recruits and I didn't put much stock in them personally.

I

This.

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
According to the always reliable statistics found on Wikipedia the 2010 rate for rape in the United States is 27.3 per 100,000 of the population. (I would assume that 100,000 counts both men and women, so it the majority of rapes are male on female then you could probably imply that the rate is actually higher if you only take women into consideration.)

Now other statistics say that between 75-95% of rapes go unreported, and if that is correct then we have a number that is not looking very pretty and we could end up with 400-500 rapes per 100,000 of the population, which is still only 0.5% of people. Now even if you assume that almost all rapes are male on female and that half the population is female that would "only" end up with 1% of the population getting raped if you try to adjust the numbers for women and unreported rapes.

But then other statistics and studies at colleges come up with anywhere between 10-25% of women reporting being raped at some point in their lives, and another study found that 4.7% experienced rape or attempted rape each year. Which is a very different number than the rapes/100,000 people. Of course statistics are very hard to make sense of sometimes, and methods can lead to very different results.

Other studies find that 1 out of 6 women will experience some form of sexual assault, including childhood abuse. Which should make us wonder how something like this could be this prevalent. Does this include women who feel like they have been assaulted? Almost 50% of rapes involve alcohol by both parties, so while things might have gotten hot and steamy the woman could easily be quietly saying "no....no..." and the guy just keeps going. Which could easily result in a woman not reporting it because she 'knows' that "I was drunk, I took him home, everybody is going to say it was my fault, we made out, I didn't mean for it to lead to sex, but who will believe me". So for legal purposes and for the way she feels, it could very easily be rape to her.

Which is why we need a lot of education of young guys that no = no.

Anyway, glad this didn't get locked, good discussion going on.

Your stats don't work. Thats per year, and as noted reported in a specific category (and its wiki). Other stats show much, much higher levels.

They could still work though. If we go with 1% each year, then it wouldn't be that hard to get to 25% over 30-40 years.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
According to the always reliable statistics found on Wikipedia the 2010 rate for rape in the United States is 27.3 per 100,000 of the population. (I would assume that 100,000 counts both men and women, so it the majority of rapes are male on female then you could probably imply that the rate is actually higher if you only take women into consideration.)

Now other statistics say that between 75-95% of rapes go unreported, and if that is correct then we have a number that is not looking very pretty and we could end up with 400-500 rapes per 100,000 of the population, which is still only 0.5% of people. Now even if you assume that almost all rapes are male on female and that half the population is female that would "only" end up with 1% of the population getting raped if you try to adjust the numbers for women and unreported rapes.

But then other statistics and studies at colleges come up with anywhere between 10-25% of women reporting being raped at some point in their lives, and another study found that 4.7% experienced rape or attempted rape each year. Which is a very different number than the rapes/100,000 people. Of course statistics are very hard to make sense of sometimes, and methods can lead to very different results.

Other studies find that 1 out of 6 women will experience some form of sexual assault, including childhood abuse. Which should make us wonder how something like this could be this prevalent. Does this include women who feel like they have been assaulted? Almost 50% of rapes involve alcohol by both parties, so while things might have gotten hot and steamy the woman could easily be quietly saying "no....no..." and the guy just keeps going. Which could easily result in a woman not reporting it because she 'knows' that "I was drunk, I took him home, everybody is going to say it was my fault, we made out, I didn't mean for it to lead to sex, but who will believe me". So for legal purposes and for the way she feels, it could very easily be rape to her.

Which is why we need a lot of education of young guys that no = no.

Anyway, glad this didn't get locked, good discussion going on.

Your stats don't work. Thats per year, and as noted reported in a specific category (and its wiki). Other stats show much, much higher levels.

They could still work though. If we go with 1% each year, then it wouldn't be that hard to get to 25% over 30-40 years.

Your use of facts and logic have no place here.

I think that part of the problem with believing that 25% of women have reported sexual assault could be that when we think "rape" we think of the classical violent rape that is often seen in the movies.

And while I am sure that this form of rape does happen way too often, rape is also any unwanted and forced sexual contact even if it is not violent.

 d-usa wrote:
I think that part of the problem with believing that 25% of women have reported sexual assault could be that when we think "rape" we think of the classical violent rape that is often seen in the movies.

And while I am sure that this form of rape does happen way too often, rape is also any unwanted and forced sexual contact even if it is not violent.

Yep