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The problem isn't that the women who posted the incident was getting stares or comments, it was that some people decided it was ok to be rude to her and harass her because she chose to dress as a comic character and actually had the figure to pull it off. If you read what was said and done it was clear they were out of line, and went beyond just noticing she was wearing a 'sexy' outfit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:06:10
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Indeed. Reds8n posted her own words as published on Bleeding Cool:
But seriously just want to clear up something: an experience being treated like that at Comic Con has never happened to me before, which is why I was compelled to post and discuss it here. The vast majority of men I’ve encountered show respect to me and other cosplaying women- they ask before posing with me, they often ask before taking a picture at all, they don’t make lewd or derogatory comments and they follow my (and most ladies’) basic rules on touching:Your hands can be on the places they’d be if I was your Mama- if you wouldn’t touch your Mama there, you won’t be touching me there. And it’s nice to know that 99% of men would not play grab-ass with their mamas!
If you’re one of the respectful guys, thank you for doing what you do and for making cons that much more enjoyable and fun for everyone- I truly appreciate it and you.
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
AustonT wrote: Stop harassing me! I just want to buy some cheese and some butter in my totally normal grocery store attire.
AustonT wrote: I enjoy comic books and came to comiccon not dressed as a whore.
These are pretty poor substitutes for an actual argument about why what a woman wears in any given situation justifies otherwise degrading behavior on the part of people interacting with her.
Really you came up with people touching your models and you think THOSE are poor substitutes? I'd be amazed if I didn't already know you.
So could you please get down to brass tacks and tell me why you really think its okay to sexually harass women based on how they're dressed?
I think chicks that go to comic cons dressed in skimpy outfits know what they are inviting, and shouldn't be surprised when they get it. It's like the dudes from dancing bear complaining about sexual harrasment, ok maybe chippendale's would be better.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
Well, again, not condoning it, just really unsurprising. Frankly, the only thing here that caught me off guard was that this doesn't happen MORE. There's a lot of what I've seen at cons that I can only describe as animals someone bothered to clothe.
To be fair though, if you dress yourself up as what is obviously largely a sexual fantasy (i.e. an impractically skimpily clad woman), don't be surprised when people treat you like you're obviously a sexual fantasy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:20:12
Also, why the feth couldn't she just tell her cup size? I've had friends which I barely know tell me theirs...
Alternatively, she could've made a witty comment like 'tell me your size and I'll tell you mine'', and this would have defused the whole situation. She just seems to have put herself in a situation and not know how to navigate it properly.
I fear the slut quality control is slipping these days.
Also, Boooooobs. With a capital B.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:19:14
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
AustonT wrote: they are inviting, and shouldn't be surprised when they get it. It's like the dudes from dancing bear complaining about sexual harrasment, ok maybe chippendale's would be better.
They aren't inviting humiliation, or to be touched without permission, or verbally harassed, just like anyone else at the convention. They expect stares, to be stopped and asked for photos, and, oddly, to be treated with the same respect that everyone else there is expecting.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
AustonT wrote: they are inviting, and shouldn't be surprised when they get it. It's like the dudes from dancing bear complaining about sexual harrasment, ok maybe chippendale's would be better.
They aren't inviting humiliation, or to be touched without permission, or verbally harassed, just like anyone else at the convention. They expect stares, to be stopped and asked for photos, and, oddly, to be treated with the same respect that everyone else there is expecting.
Im sure when they unzip their latex half way they look in the mirror and say "Today I will be respected."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:23:04
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
AustonT wrote: Really you came up with people touching your models and you think THOSE are poor substitutes?
As noted on the tin, I used the example to emphasize the objectification that was already being assumed. It's transparently petty to ignore that so I'll assume it sailed over your head despite having made it explicit.
AustonT wrote: I think chicks that go to comic cons dressed in skimpy outfits know what they are inviting, and shouldn't be surprised when they get it. It's like the dudes from dancing bear complaining about sexual harrasment, ok maybe chippendale's would be better.
daedalus wrote: To be fair though, if you dress yourself up as what is obviously largely a sexual fantasy (i.e. an impractically skimpily clad woman), don't be surprised when people treat you like you're obviously a sexual fantasy.
The problem isn't that she was surprised, although she was. (According to her, the vast majority of men who actually attend comic conventions are apparently more respectful of women than either of you.) The issue is that the probability of someone acting like a scuzzbag doesn't really have anything whatsoever to do with its justification.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kovnik Obama wrote: She just seems to have put herself in a situation and not know how to navigate it properly.
I fear the slut quality control is slipping these days.
Sometimes I can't take Chongara seriously. Then I read stuff like this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AustonT wrote: Im sure when they unzip their latex half way they look in the mirror and say "Today I will be respected."
No, clearly they say "maybe today's the day that AustonT will finally notice me and maybe even cop a feel."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:26:58
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
The rub is whether or not she would still be complaining if she got that kind of attention from a bunch of men whom she thought were very attractive. I would say she was looking for attention, and just became pissed off and disgusted when it wasn't from the kind of people she wanted it to be. Otherwise I assume she would have played coy instead of angry.
I see this with girls at clubs all the time. If you're hot it's not unwanted attention, if you're not it is.
AustonT wrote: Im sure when they unzip their latex half way they look in the mirror and say "Today I will be respected."
I know I do. I don't understand how dressing as Catwoman for a comic convention means you can be gak on and treated as more of an animal and less of a person. I can recognize that a person can be sexy and still be a person at the same time. It really isn't that difficult.
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
The rub is whether or not she would still be complaining if she got that kind of attention from a bunch of men whom she thought were very attractive. I would say she was looking for attention, and just became pissed off and disgusted when it wasn't from the kind of people she wanted it to be. Otherwise I assume she would have played coy instead of angry.
I see this with girls at clubs all the time. If you're hot it's not unwanted attention, if you're not it is.
Not sure if sarcasm or misogyny...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:30:19
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ratbarf wrote: I see this with girls at clubs all the time. If you're hot it's not unwanted attention, if you're not it is.
I don't think that is relevant to this situation AT ALL. There's nothing on the face of this situation to lead us to believe she'd welcome the cup size question from any other stranger. So there's an assumption at play here -- ask yourself what it is.
Manchu wrote: The problem isn't that she was surprised, although she was. (According to her, the vast majority of men who actually attend comic conventions are apparently more respectful of women than either of you.)
That's... almost accusatory. I do not believe I've ever been disrespectful of women. I'm just completely unsurprised that others are, especially when they present themselves as an object of sexual fantasy. Objectify yourself, and others will too.
The issue is that the probability of someone acting like a scuzzbag doesn't really have anything whatsoever to do with its justification.
Quite, but we all already knew that. See step 1. Especially the bit about social ineptitude
What a load of sexist, patriarchal, misogynistic bs, Manchu and maybe one other person excepted. If Manchu wasn't already in this thread, I'd have reported the lot of you for offensive language. I mean, we've got slut-shaming, victim blaming (including from a poster that appears to be a woman, at which the mind boggles), and even a touch of 'what about the menz'.
Attitudes and thoughts like the ones expressed by mattyrm, AustonT et al are the reason women don't game as much. They have every right to go to a con in whatever the hell outfit they choose, for whatever reason they choose, just as you do, without being subjected to this kind of vile harassment. It is not a woman's fault if a man is sexist towards her, it is the man's fault for being sexist towards her.
I'm just gonna repeat that last bit, in case you missed it the first time round:
It is not a woman's fault if a man is sexist towards her, it is the man's fault for being sexist towards her.
Dragonlover
EDIT: fethed a name up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:38:27
Mind you, I'm not defending them, just chuckling at the ridicule of the whole situation:
Using the lovely mother analogy... what would happen if you touched "your momma's" ass or if she EVEN sensed you were THINKING about it?... It usually would go SLAP, no? I doubt someone's mother would run off and whine about it in the news...
There is always the probability of some arse going way overboard in his actions when confronted with an atractive woman in skimpy clothing, and no I do not condone those actions.
Heresy begets Retribution... and sometimes a kick in the nuts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:41:12
I don't think that is relevant to this situation AT ALL. There's nothing on the face of this situation to lead us to believe she'd welcome the cup size question from any other stranger. So there's an assumption at play here -- ask yourself what it is.
That women like the attention of men they find attractive? And that cup size is a common flirting technique?
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Yes. Ignore google translator 90% of the time with Latin phrases.
According to a Latin teacher I know: Culpa victimum
Attitudes and thoughts like the ones expressed by mattyrm, daedalus et al are the reason women don't game as much. They have every right to go to a con in whatever the hell outfit they choose, for whatever reason they choose, just as you do, without being subjected to this kind of vile harassment. It is not a woman's fault if a man is sexist towards her, it is the man's fault for being sexist towards her.
Heh, what if the roles were reversed? I mean, if I show up to comicon in a speedo or what have you, I expect to be objectified, hell, that's possibly what I'm looking for. For me to then get angry when a bunch of fat girls ask me how long my schlong is kind of hypocritical. I mean, they can clearly see it, it's a speedo.
Manchu wrote: The problem isn't that she was surprised, although she was. (According to her, the vast majority of men who actually attend comic conventions are apparently more respectful of women than either of you.)
That's... almost accusatory. I do not believe I've ever been disrespectful of women. I'm just completely unsurprised that others are, especially when they present themselves as an object of sexual fantasy. Objectify yourself, and others will too.
You're right, maybe I did make an assumption about your argument so let's set the record straight here:
When you say you are not surprised that someone acted this way to her, are you saying that
(1) after all, some people are totally awful
-OR-
(2) after all, she totally had it coming
?
From what you've said so far*, I'd guess you mean both. Trouble is, the second option there totally overwhelms the first: "awful people are awful to people who deserve it."
*As in this:
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Step 3: I blame the victim.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:54:32
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Yes. Ignore google translator 90% of the time with Latin phrases.
According to a Latin teacher I know: Culpa victimum
I'll keep that in mind, also, I just wanted an excuse to post this slightly OT video.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:52:07
Ratbarf wrote: Heh, what if the roles were reversed? I mean, if I show up to comicon in a speedo or what have you, I expect to be objectified, hell, that's possibly what I'm looking for. For me to then get angry when a bunch of fat girls ask me how long my schlong is kind of hypocritical. I mean, they can clearly see it, it's a speedo.
So you've made up a ridiculous situation out of nothing and expect that to be an argument in a discussion about reality?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 16:55:59
Attitudes and thoughts like the ones expressed by mattyrm, daedalus et al are the reason women don't game as much. They have every right to go to a con in whatever the hell outfit they choose, for whatever reason they choose, just as you do, without being subjected to this kind of vile harassment. It is not a woman's fault if a man is sexist towards her, it is the man's fault for being sexist towards her.
Heh, what if the roles were reversed? I mean, if I show up to comicon in a speedo or what have you, I expect to be objectified, hell, that's possibly what I'm looking for. For me to then get angry when a bunch of fat girls ask me how long my schlong is kind of hypocritical. I mean, they can clearly see it, it's a speedo.
Except she didn't just wear a Speedo, which isn't a costume by the way, she wore a costume. The questions should have been about the costume.
@Manchu: See, the argument I got from him was neither of those, but that women will let men they think are attractive treat them badly, but not ones they are attracted to. Essentially women are mean to most men, but will tolerate rich or handsome men to get attention.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From what you've said so far, I'd guess you mean both. Trouble is, the second option there totally overwhelms the first: "awful people are awful to people who deserve it."
I'm trying to say that most people are totally awful. That's the fundamental issue here. It's not her fault that most people are totally awful. I'm courteous to women to a fault.
I just don't understand why you would put yourself in the lion's den assuming you knew that some people (who are stereotypical for that kind of venue) are totally awful.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I wouldn't dress like that, were I an attractive con-going female.
I also blame myself if I forget to lock my car doors and get my car cleaned out. I assume that, until proven otherwise, every person I encounter is an exemplary paragon of everything bad in humanity, until proven otherwise.
When I was tournamenting in Austin a few times back when dinosaurs roamed, the Wife would show up around lunchtime with lunch. The crowd would just stop for a second.
Well you know how gamers love their lunches.
This is true.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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