Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Plonka - as pointed out, thisi s a Jump MC. This therefore fits under the "all types of" allowance. Hence the conversation about WMS.

They are allowed, but are still held to the standard that they must be able to be placed. WMS does not overrule the requirement that the model still be able to be placed. Lack of actual area to place the model is not trumped by WMS. If there is area for the model to be placed, but let's say there is a molded ammo crate there that makes placement of the model unstable, WMS would then kick in.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
They are allowed, but are still held to the standard that they must be able to be placed. WMS does not overrule the requirement that the model still be able to be placed. Lack of actual area to place the model is not trumped by WMS. If there is area for the model to be placed, but let's say there is a molded ammo crate there that makes placement of the model unstable, WMS would then kick in.

... which is what people have been saying. The response that started all this said,

Can the model physically be placed because it's base will fall off? If the base has room but cannot fit without falling, it's wobbly model syndrom.

To which Crablezworth went off saying WMS was evil and wrong and incorrectly cited rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
They are allowed, but are still held to the standard that they must be able to be placed. WMS does not overrule the requirement that the model still be able to be placed. Lack of actual area to place the model is not trumped by WMS. If there is area for the model to be placed, but let's say there is a molded ammo crate there that makes placement of the model unstable, WMS would then kick in.

... which is what people have been saying. The response that started all this said,

Can the model physically be placed because it's base will fall off? If the base has room but cannot fit without falling, it's wobbly model syndrom.

To which Crablezworth went off saying WMS was evil and wrong and incorrectly cited rules.

I thought he was arguing against something else.

If the model can be placed, but in being placed is likely to fall over, WMS kicks in. If the model cannot even be placed, such as the MS Paint pic that showed the toes barely grasping onto a broken edge of an upper floor of ruins, WMS does not kick in.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
They are allowed, but are still held to the standard that they must be able to be placed. WMS does not overrule the requirement that the model still be able to be placed. Lack of actual area to place the model is not trumped by WMS. If there is area for the model to be placed, but let's say there is a molded ammo crate there that makes placement of the model unstable, WMS would then kick in.

... which is what people have been saying. The response that started all this said,

Can the model physically be placed because it's base will fall off? If the base has room but cannot fit without falling, it's wobbly model syndrom.

To which Crablezworth went off saying WMS was evil and wrong and incorrectly cited rules.

Stop with the strawman. Please.

 Crablezworth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
They are allowed, but are still held to the standard that they must be able to be placed. WMS does not overrule the requirement that the model still be able to be placed. Lack of actual area to place the model is not trumped by WMS. If there is area for the model to be placed, but let's say there is a molded ammo crate there that makes placement of the model unstable, WMS would then kick in.

... which is what people have been saying. The response that started all this said,

Can the model physically be placed because it's base will fall off? If the base has room but cannot fit without falling, it's wobbly model syndrom.

To which Crablezworth went off saying WMS was evil and wrong and incorrectly cited rules.

Stop with the strawman. Please.

Strawman? Citation needed.

Happyjew wrote:And we are talking about a Jump MC, which per your post are allowed.

Agreed. They still need to be physically placed on the level of ruin, as the rule clearly states.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Plonka - as pointed out, thisi s a Jump MC. This therefore fits under the "all types of" allowance. Hence the conversation about WMS.

They still need to be physically placed on the level of ruin, as the rule clearly states.
WMS does not circumvent this.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:They are allowed, but are still held to the standard that they must be able to be placed. WMS does not overrule the requirement that the model still be able to be placed. Lack of actual area to place the model is not trumped by WMS. If there is area for the model to be placed, but let's say there is a molded ammo crate there that makes placement of the model unstable, WMS would then kick in.

QFT, however, the area has to be able to hold the model so WMS does not 'kick in' if you or anyone else has to prop it up.
Please note, I'm not introducing assumptions like 'moulded crate' to support my argument. I'm talking about the rules, which say it has to physically fit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
They are allowed, but are still held to the standard that they must be able to be placed. WMS does not overrule the requirement that the model still be able to be placed. Lack of actual area to place the model is not trumped by WMS. If there is area for the model to be placed, but let's say there is a molded ammo crate there that makes placement of the model unstable, WMS would then kick in.

... which is what people have been saying. The response that started all this said,

Can the model physically be placed because it's base will fall off? If the base has room but cannot fit without falling, it's wobbly model syndrom.

To which Crablezworth went off saying WMS was evil and wrong and incorrectly cited rules.

I see nobody going crazy saying WMS is evil, just that it does not apply here.
I see Crablezworth's point here, which is that WMS does not allow models to defy gravity or circumvent the rule of actually fitting onto the ruin upper levels.
I agree with Crablezworth.

Please people, I appeal to your sense of reason. This is really silly.
If the model cannot be placed on the ruin level, it cant fit.

There is no holding it there to make it fit. There is no defying gravity. It is here to prevent models being broken.
WMS is clearly designed as a rule that still requires the model to be able to 'fit' into the area, in this case a 1st/2nd level of a ruin.
Honestly, I dont know of any ruins that fit a MC, never mind a Dreadknight (Which the OP is specifically talking about).

 plonka2000 wrote:
There is no holding it there to make it fit.

Citation needed.

 plonka2000 wrote:
WMS is clearly designed as a rule that still requires the model to be able to 'fit' into the area, in this case a 1st/2nd level of a ruin.
Honestly, I dont know of any ruins that fit a MC, never mind a Dreadknight (Which the OP is specifically talking about).

and the Dreadknight does fit into that ruin, its base is somewhat supported by the ruin, it can also be moved over a bit to balance the base on that ruin a bit better. it also helps if the base is weighted.

 plonka2000 wrote:
I see nobody going crazy saying WMS is evil, just that it does not apply here.

But it can.

I see Crablezworth's point here, which is that WMS does not allow models to defy gravity or circumvent the rule of actually fitting onto the ruin upper levels.

Cite the statement before Crablezworth's first post in the thread that says a model can defy gravity or does not need to fit.
And then Crablezworth went off on the incorrect assumption that WMS only applies if nudging the table would make the model fall.

Please people, I appeal to your sense of reason. This is really silly.
If the model cannot be placed on the ruin level, it cant fit.

There's a difference between not being able to be placed because there's a crate in the way, and the base not fitting whatsoever.

There is no holding it there to make it fit. There is no defying gravity. It is here to prevent models being broken.
WMS is clearly designed as a rule that still requires the model to be able to 'fit' into the area, in this case a 1st/2nd level of a ruin.
Honestly, I dont know of any ruins that fit a MC, never mind a Dreadknight (Which the OP is specifically talking about).

I know of quite a few. I've put Tervigons on the second level of some ruins - and Flyrants.

What about that?

... Sure - why not?
It's possible in some cases. Not in all cases.

You fit a trygon on the second level of a ruin?



I guess it is indeed possible as all ruins are built differently, I just struggle with that.

Is that a FMC? Then pretty sure it cannot even be on the upper levels of a ruin anyway.

Btw, I am not saying that an ammor crate is in the way of placing a model, I am saying that by placing it on the ammo crate you create the situation of the model being placed, but unstable and hence WMS could be implemented.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Is that a FMC? Then pretty sure it cannot even be on the upper levels of a ruin anyway.

It can if both opponents agree that it can - it's in the oft quoted rules for ruins. Walkers can too.

Btw, I am not saying that an ammor crate is in the way of placing a model, I am saying that by placing it on the ammo crate you create the situation of the model being placed, but unstable and hence WMS could be implemented.

Which is exactly what I've said. So we agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:
You fit a trygon on the second level of a ruin?

I guess it is indeed possible as all ruins are built differently, I just struggle with that.

Like I said - I've put Tervigons on the 2nd level of a ruin. In this case it was a single story building that the rear had been blown off. Had ~3/4 of the building left and solid internal structural support, so my opponent and I agreed to allow MCs and walkers up there. There's literally zero reason a Trygon couldn't have fit up there.

The Tervigon was chasing a Dreadnaught for a meal. The Tervigon won.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Stop with the strawman. Please.

Stop with the incorrectly citing logical fallacies, and actually support your argument with anything other than "because i said so"

If the base can fit, and would fall off, then WMS kicks in. Physically fitting has no requirement for "must be able to support itself with no external help" because, well, thats not what the phrase means.

 Crablezworth wrote:


What about that?

Actually if MCs are allowed in the upper levels by agreement, then you will find the Trygon can go places most others cannot. Those spiky bits make for wonderful tools to hold onto walls to hold it in place.

I guess this seems to be the way it is in some eyes



I dissagree with an opponent attempting moves similar to that and saying wobbly model syndrome.

Cite where someone has said that.
You're trolling us now.

rigeld2 wrote:
Cite where someone has said that.
You're trolling us now.

Does a model need to be able balance tenuously before wobbly model syndrome can be applied?

 Crablezworth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Cite where someone has said that.
You're trolling us now.

Does a model need to be able balance tenuously before wobbly model syndrome can be applied?

Yes. As we've said multiple times. You're the one that disagreed with that.

And yet still balance on its own right, no hand holding it there?

 Crablezworth wrote:
And yet still balance on its own right, no hand holding it there?

Oddly enough I've balanced a DreadKnight on the landing pad at our LGS just to prove the point. It's now a valid move and I have saved many models from being smashed

If the terrain is not impassable, the physical model is completely irrelevant for whether or not you can place it there. Pg 99 bottom right corner supports this.

All you need to do is;
1) Can the unit type access that level?
2) Can the base of the model fit (As in, is there enough base for the base to stay on by itself, generally 50%+ but you and your opponent can come to an agreement)?

How much space do you need to be able to qualify?

What would happen if the unit on the 2nd level totally filled the level, could anything assault them?

-Matt

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
If the terrain is not impassable, the physical model is completely irrelevant for whether or not you can place it there. Pg 99 bottom right corner supports this.

All you need to do is;
1) Can the unit type access that level?
2) Can the base of the model fit (As in, is there enough base for the base to stay on by itself, generally 50%+ but you and your opponent can come to an agreement)?

Right and what about a ruin where the rules make specific mention of a unit having to be able to physically fit?

HawaiiMatt wrote:
How much space do you need to be able to qualify?

What would happen if the unit on the 2nd level totally filled the level, could anything assault them?

-Matt

View assaults into ruins.. There is an exception... if the models occupy the floor completely you can still assault them.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
If the terrain is not impassable, the physical model is completely irrelevant for whether or not you can place it there. Pg 99 bottom right corner supports this.

All you need to do is;
1) Can the unit type access that level?
2) Can the base of the model fit (As in, is there enough base for the base to stay on by itself, generally 50%+ but you and your opponent can come to an agreement)?

Right and what about a ruin where the rules make specific mention of a unit having to be able to physically fit?

Indeed, the rules do state that the model has to be able to be physically placed on the level (especially with monstrous creatures and the like).

 Tomb King wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
How much space do you need to be able to qualify?

What would happen if the unit on the 2nd level totally filled the level, could anything assault them?

-Matt

View assaults into ruins.. There is an exception... if the models occupy the floor completely you can still assault them.

Ah, I missed it. The exceptions in bold don't cover it, but the text below that (page 101) does cover not enough room for a model to make it into base to base.

So it looks like while assaulting, not having enough room doesn't matter/being able to fit doesn't matter.
To stand in the ruin you have to be able to be physically placed there (page 98), but you can assault units in spaced you don't fit (page 101). I guess you'd have to consolidate out if you win.

Also worth noting if the ruin "is sturdy looking" monsters and walkers should be able to enter (page98).

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:


Also worth noting if the ruin "is sturdy looking" monsters and walkers should be able to enter (page98).

-Matt

Right but that's not an entitlement, it's not something to spring on an opponent mid game. Talk about it pre game as part of the pre game terrain discussion. If you and your opponent can't agree, the best solution is just 4+ it.



Bottom line, people play terrain differently. At some flgs's and clubs or in certain areas/regions there may be a prevading culture of how terrain is played and that may become the assumed standard, it's natural for anyone to feel the way they usually play terrain is the "right" way, I'm no different. I tend to stick to the same circle of opponents because we have similar tastes when it comes to board setups and how terrain will function. With that said, never assume, always discuss everything pre game, you might not agree on everything in the pre game discussion, if that's the case flip a coin or 4+ it.

Page 101 middle paragraph on right side of page main rule book. Check it out. This to me says he could assault. /shrug. That's how I'd play it and the guys in the ruins would pile into him.