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asbarks wrote:
3 die? It is possible for three to die, but in one turn of shooting you are only inflicting half of that on average.

Don't forget prescience, and the fact that the flamers will never catch the Interceptors.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Deathreaper wrote:8 storm bolter shots and a Psycannon can easily take out 4 Flamers. 3 die to the first turns shooting and the remaining one dies after killing 1-2 GK's.

I have done it, as that is a favorite unit of an opponent of mine.

I'm not sure about easily.

8 Str5 shots.
4 Str7 shots.

6 hits, 3hits, about.
4-5 wound,2-3 wound. We'll say 7 wounds. Than they get a 5++. That will negate 2 of those, and bam only killin 2.5.

I always have Prescience up from Inquisitor Coteaz who is with the unit as well. (I know it is more points, but in my experience that is the squads as they are on the table).

Factor that in and see what you come up with. (Sometimes I even have the divination power that forces them to re-roll successful saves, but for this only factor in coteaz and Prescience, you will see why I kill 3.

Plus do not forget that I can move away from the flamers if they have not deviated into my Warp Quake.

asbarks wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


I'm not sure about easily.

8 Str5 shots.
4 Str7 shots.

6 hits, 3hits, about.
4-5 wound,2-3 wound. We'll say 7 wounds. Than they get a 5++. That will negate 2 of those, and bam only killin 2.5.

Storm bolters are s4

Psybolt Ammo.

Learn to fear it.

 TheCaptain wrote:

asbarks wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


I'm not sure about easily.

8 Str5 shots.
4 Str7 shots.

6 hits, 3hits, about.
4-5 wound,2-3 wound. We'll say 7 wounds. Than they get a 5++. That will negate 2 of those, and bam only killin 2.5.

Storm bolters are s4

Psybolt Ammo.

Learn to fear it.

Ah, but for that price, the squad is bumped up to 130 points, which is about the equivalent of 6 flamers. I have factored in the psybolt ammo and preferred enemy (daemons) and it comes out to 5 wounds instead of 3, killing 2 and a half flamers. Now with 4 still left after a turn of shooting, they still don't quite match up. I mean yes, they can try to run away, but keep in mind that these flamers are jump infantry and can run, so that's an average of 15.5" of movement with around a 20" move and flame. It still factors out to only about a turn of shooting where they will down 2 and a half, but the remaining four will get a chance to flame them

asbarks wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

asbarks wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


I'm not sure about easily.

8 Str5 shots.
4 Str7 shots.

6 hits, 3hits, about.
4-5 wound,2-3 wound. We'll say 7 wounds. Than they get a 5++. That will negate 2 of those, and bam only killin 2.5.

Storm bolters are s4

Psybolt Ammo.

Learn to fear it.

Ah, but for that price, the squad is bumped up to 130 points, which is about the equivalent of 6 flamers. I have factored in the psybolt ammo and preferred enemy (daemons) and it comes out to 5 wounds instead of 3, killing 2 and a half flamers. Now with 4 still left after a turn of shooting, they still don't quite match up. I mean yes, they can try to run away, but keep in mind that these flamers are jump infantry and can run, so that's an average of 15.5" of movement with around a 20" move and flame. It still factors out to only about a turn of shooting where they will down 2 and a half, but the remaining four will get a chance to flame them

That's why you don't shoot flamers with a five man strike squad. Flamers still aren't that spectacular. Just better than a half-strength strike squad.

 TheCaptain wrote:

That's why you don't shoot flamers with a five man strike squad. Flamers still aren't that spectacular. Just better than a half-strength strike squad.

Ah but here I'm trying to prove that they are. Units that can deal with them are few and far between. I honestly can only think of one or two units in the game that can deal with them effectively. Why don't you think they are that amazing? They are decent on paper, but it is their points cost that makes them really spectacular. Not trying to be a douche/start a hate war, but i really think they are just broken.

The Interceptors are Jump infantry as well. so the Flamers will just die tired.

The Interceptors and the Strikes are different so I will do the Interceptors first.
You said "5 interceptors with a psycannon is 110, while 5 flamers are 115 points"

The flamers deep strike and are outside of 12 inches.
The interceptors Jump to just barely within 24 inches and they all fire. rinse and repeat.

8 Str4 shots and 2 Str 7 shots. 5.28 S4 hits, and 1.2 S7 hits.
2.64 S4 wounds 1.008 S7 wounds
after saves:
1.74 wounds +0.665 wounds for a total of 2.41 wounds per round of average fire, the Flamers never reach the interceptors and die in an average of 5 turns shooting without outside influence.

Now for the Strike squad.
8 Str4 shots and 4 Str 7 shots. 5.28 S4 hits, and 2.64 S7 hits.
2.64 S4 wounds 2.21 S7 wounds
after saves:
1.74 wounds +1.45 wounds for a total of 3.19 wounds per round of average fire.

If they land further away from the warp quake.

If they scatter into the warp quake then they may die or be well out of range for a good long while.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Interceptors are Jump infantry as well. so the Flamers will just die tired.

The Interceptors and the Strikes are different so I will do the Interceptors first.
You said "5 interceptors with a psycannon is 110, while 5 flamers are 115 points"

Sorry, i was talking about strike squads, 5 with a psycannon is 110, and with psybolt ammo is 130

5 interceptors with psybolt and psycannon is 160, which is about 7 flamers

The flamers deep strike and are outside of 12 inches.
The interceptors Jump to just barely within 24 inches and they all fire. rinse and repeat.

8 Str4 shots and 2 Str 7 shots. 5.28 S4 hits, and 1.2 S7 hits.
2.64 S4 wounds 1.008 S7 wounds
after saves:
1.74 wounds +0.665 wounds for a total of 2.41 wounds per round of average fire, the Flamers never reach the interceptors and die in an average of 5 turns shooting without outside influence.

Now for the Strike squad.
8 Str4 shots and 4 Str 7 shots. 5.28 S4 hits, and 2.64 S7 hits.
2.64 S4 wounds 2.21 S7 wounds
after saves:
1.74 wounds +1.45 wounds for a total of 3.19 wounds per round of average fire.

If they land further away from the warp quake.

If they scatter into the warp quake then they may die or be well out of range for a good long while.

Well you have to keep in mind that the flamers and interceptor squad are not moving at the same time. One turn they will be about 20-24" away while they shoot the flamers, the next turn the flamers will move and then run, to get within 4.5-8.4" away, then the next turn the interceptor squad will move 12" away and shoot, landing them 16.5-20.5" away, which is exactly in the flamers kill zone. The next turn the flamers will flame the interceptor squad. So the interceptor squad would get about two reliable turns of shooting, which lands about 4 flamers dead, leaving 3 to flame for points equivalent, still being able to wipe the whole squad given if they can each place their template over three models, which again is liberal.

If they get a good run roll, sure, but the interceptors can just shunt really far, and the flamers will not catch them.

The flamers must be outside of 12 inches due to warp quake.

So the interceptors jump 12 inches away from the closest flamer and now all interceptors are just barely within 24 inches of the one flamer that dies to shooting this round.

The flamers then jump 12 and run 1-6 for a total of 13- 18 for a total of 11 to 6 inches away. if 6 they Shunt to barely within 24 and shoot them again, killing more flamers, if 11 away they normal jump killing more flamers.

The Flamers do not win this fight.

Well let's look at their other gun that they have. Assuming that the interceptor squad will shoot first (which could go either way here, i'm giving them the benefit of the doubt), they will inflict 4 wound on 7 flamers (points equivalent), leaving them with 5 guys left, those 5 guys will move 12"(just to be in range of their other weapon), and will kill 1.7 guys (15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.7 unsaved) Assuming that .7 of a wound didn't actually go through, because i don't want to start rounding up, there will be 4 GKs left. The next turn the interceptors will only put 1.5 wounds on the flamers, leaving them with 4 guys left, who will then move and shoot their gun, killing another 1.3. Now there are a total of 3 wound inflicted against them., leaving a total of 2 gks against 3 and a half flamers. Assuming the psycannon hasn't died yet, they will inflict 2 more wounds, leaving 2 and a half flamers, who will then proceed to kill another GK. Then assuming the psycannon hasn't died yet, it will inflict another wound (let's assume the wound went on the flamer that was already wounded, for simplicity), leaving 2 flamers, who will then inflict .7 wounds. Assuming the psycannon GK didn't die, the psycannon will then inflict another wound on the flamers, leaving one and a half flamers, who will then inflict another .7 wounds, which will on average wipe the squad.

This is giving a lot of the benefit of the doubt to the GKs (first round of shooting, the psycannon was the last man standing, and all of the the .7 wounds didn't round)

The GKs just don't win.

 The Obsidian King wrote:
Enough of this foolishness.

KHORNE BERZERKERS.

After wiping out my friend who went full berzerker using only hotshots, I laugh at you.

 captain collius wrote:
TH/SS deathwing command squad with CML - 2 missile shoting fearless assault terminators with FNP +1 attack Fearless And can deepstrike turn 1.

we have a winner i was going to say hammernator but this is even better

 Ailaros wrote:


The only times I've ever seen this the story always goes the same way:

1.) doom shows up, offs a few infantry models, puffs up to W10.

2.) doom is immediately killed by a meltagun or a lascannon in return.

Without eternal warrior, the doom is pants.

Doom has psychic powers. He can now get ID protection with either iron arm or Endurance. He is also 90 points and the only model that can wound your opponent in HIS shooting phase. Also, if he ever lives a turn and assaults a squad without a fist.....Even with a fist you are looking at <1 in 3 chance to kill him per assault phase while he leeches more. He also is a character and can challenge to single out that fist.


Also, we were not considering forgeworld. Otherwise, Warp hunters may well take the cake. Those necron buggers are strong as hell, but dont do much in melee with S4. They can tarpit forever, but they are decently expensive for a tarpit. Scary in MSU, but if they do that they arent taking wraiths.

Based upon the meta of today, and my personal experience

- Screamers

- Vendetta

- Flamers

- Wraiths

- Grey Hunters

- Eldrad

- Celestine

- Zombie Cultists

- Plague Marines