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Nah,

We use genetic engineering to make stuff fluorescent coz it looks cool (the fact it's also useful is just a useful by-product)

Well that's my first serious contribution to the development of the races - glow in the dark kittens

Up to above £40,000 now and 340 backers at the time of writing. But, this is still going to need a lot more, and I think most importantly more reasoned input from people who would like to contribute in the development.

I think well worth £1 to become a backer, and see if you can add something to the discussion. That's the keystone of this Kickstarter campaign I feel and I hope the community can try and make the most of it!

I was put off by the 'it's hard SF' claims too, as I mentioned in the other thread, because they clearly weren't true... which made me think that the game is being put together by people who have more buzz-words that they don't really understand, than they do vision, or ideas. I hope to be proven wrong, but it's a pretty faint hope right now.

I can't bring myself to be excited about this Kickstarter. The premise sounds OK, but not particularly spectacular. But with no minis (even prototypes) about, there's absolutely no draw for me.

First backed Kickstarter and I am looking forward to this very much.

Interesting concept.

I would very much like to get in on the development of a game, and have a hand in its evolution- and for the record- Rick Priestly hasn't put out too many dogs for games in his times at bat. He's a good egg, and one of the few Game designers I know that is consistent in quality.

I'm also with the consensous that its a heck of a project and worth a little money to get in on.

Not too jazzed on some of the races, I have a few of my own recommendations- if there is any interest.

I'm in.

Wow Dakka - I'll remember to link this any time someone gets upset at GW for being a miniature company and not a game company.

Luckliy we do know we will be seeing greens before this KS ends - and I hope they are absolutely terrific so everyone can be happy (though of course you can't please everybody). I really hope this will all work. Rick has a long, long long history of making games. He was doing it before 40k, and has created quite a few gems since. John S has a long history of creating, managing, or selling some of the best minis around the globe. Just look at how well Warlord Games is doing. I do not know about Rik, but he seems to be the computer/graphics (?) guy. This is different than a lot of KS that we have seen recently. This is truly a "need funding for a project type thing". Sorry, but I'm more excited to put in on this one than any of a huge group of the "pre-selling" ones that we have seen that still have to get stuff to people...in many cases many months late! I have no doubts it will be a cool game, I just hope the artist and scultptors can make this one great...after all reading this there are a lot of us who only care about the minis....

And "Hard" science fiction is very different things to different people. For me, if it does not explore social interactions/reactions or the way societies intermingle (or don't) it is almost always sci-fi instead of science fiction. Best example that most people can relate to is Armageddon vs. Deep Impact, one is science fiction, the other a sci-fi story. Of course, the one that made more money and was a bigger movie may not be the cutting edge science fiction one either........cough cough. If Rick, Rik and John can figure out a way to bring even a remote feeling of that science fiction edge it will be great.....they may do this by: special scenarios, various racial traits, racial tensions, even down right hatreds (imagine pandogs running into pancats....etc.) And hopefully they can incorporate this all into a story that can change and mutate with the flow of the game.

And judging from what is going on the forums, Rick seems to have a pretty good idea about the "kernel" of the rules, but will be willing over the development period to work with backers to basically playtest and find the best solutions for the many variations and situations we can get into. The backers are also going to be able to talk about some of the things that excite them the most....and influence what may come out sooner than other things....just read the forums and you find ideas like head/cloack/weapon kits to be added to things for modellers. And discussions of even nano-fashionology© and how it could affect your army. I don't think the backers are going to do all of the work (or even a fair share of it to be honest - I think Rick and Rik are going to have quite a few nights burning the late night candle) but the most important thing the backers can do is help influence the direction of the background and rules....in other words we have a company that is asking us what we would like to see, is willing to direct its development along or into those lines, and wants feedback on the basic structure and the ability to suggest playtest info from you into their final rules. Now where on Dakka have I heard people crying out for this?

I'm incredibly excited about this one. In fact I jumped the gun and started the old thread as soon as I got info on this from facebook. And I backed as soon as I could.....hoping we can get enough people happy with the content and the promise of this one that we hit (or even easily hit) the goal.

The only thing about this that concerns me is the lack of initial greens. Love the idea of making the rules and stats inter compatible between mass combat, skirmish and RPG games.

Sorry, creative ideas don't start coming until I know what kind of background I'm playing with.

Well, you normally have to buy rules before you've played the game, based only on limited information from a website, back cover, or if you're lucky actually flipping through the book. Or you wait and read some reviews online, which are normally biased. In any case, given all the great and extremely fun rules Rick has created, I think this has a much better chance of being a good game than most already finished games I've paid money for in the past.

Understandably, a lot of miniatures gamers are all about the miniatures. And I can see not wanting to pledge for miniatures if you don't have any idea what they'll look like. So, if you like the idea, start out by pledging for the rules. Later on, when they've shown some concepts, you can decide if you want to pledge more for the miniatures, or use different ones, or wait until they are finished after the kickstarter to decide if you want to buy them retail. No harm in that. Though some people will pledge for the miniatures based on the history of the sculptors, like many are so willing to give the game a chance based on the track record of the author.

I've written a bit of fan fiction about some of the ideas in the background, as I understand them. Let me know what you think:

Sephareem gazed absently at his reflection in the polished stone surface before him. His bright green eyes were outlined with purple dye, and set in a long face of scaly orange skin topped with spindly shafts of quill-like hair standing up on end. He was beginning to think he might just look a bit ridiculous. This look had been the height of fashion when Sephareem had left his Concorde homeworld, but that was a long time ago now, and he thought, hoped, that the obsession with towering hair had been a passing fad.

Not that it mattered out here. He had left his mundane life on his homeworld so that he could do something more fulfilling than competing with other NuHumans to see who could best keep up with the latest fashions. Slowly, a faint suggestion, like a gentle pressure in the front of his elongated skull, forced Sephareem's attention back to the strange symbols carved into the smooth stone surface. Studying the ancient ruins on this long-forgotten world was undoubtedly of value to the shard. However, it clearly was not sating whatever unfulfilled desire had driven him to leave the comfort of his home for this life of-

He froze. There were others in the sprawling temple complex. One of the drones had just spotted them, a ragtag group of Pansimians, devolved Revers, and other undesirables. Freebooters. Pirates. They were here to pillage ancient artifacts for their own gain, in stark contrast with his desire to recover them for the benefit and improvement of the Shard. This could not be allowed. These brutes must be stopped.

Suddenly he felt a twist, like a knot deep in the core of his being, at the thought of what was to come. He had never before in his life known any kind of violence, or even the thought of it. He had spent his life under the protection of the IMTel, cradled in the safety of the Shard, but out here... Other Panhuman species might recognize the feeling as anxiety, but it was as unfamiliar to Sephareem as the markings on these ancient stones. A slight tingling intruded into the back of Sephareem's mind, and the twisting feeling was gone. Anxiety is for those who do not yet know what they will do, and worry they will do wrong. Sephareem knew exactly what he would do. He would enact the will of the IMTel, the network of intelligence that guided all, which could not be wrong.

Slowly, almost with a casual indifference, Sephareem drew his standard issue sidearm and proceeded down the crumbling passageway. The entire expedition party of scientists, researchers, and various drones all moved in concert towards their enemy. They were directed by the Integrated Machine Intelligence network formed of the countless nanomachines that saturated everything around them. Sephareem did not think about what would happen. The IMTel already had a plan to deal with the looters. He had only to do as it required of him.

Also, did anyone else mention this?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/01/interview-rick-priestley-talks.html

Tethyr13 wrote:
And "Hard" science fiction is very different things to different people.

Nah, it's pretty much been hammered out in both academic and amateur circles for a good long time.

For me, if it does not explore social interactions/reactions or the way societies intermingle (or don't) it is almost always sci-fi instead of science fiction. Best example that most people can relate to is Armageddon vs. Deep Impact, one is science fiction, the other a sci-fi story.

There is an critical tradition of considering sci-fi as hack-work that doesn't qualify as real science fiction, so you're in good company with that distinction. The pejorative sci-fi is what I would simply call space fantasy or futuristic fantasy if space isn't involved, but higher tech is.

If they want to amp up the science fiction side of things, they need to find ways to explore the implications of the technology in their setting. Primarily through the background fiction, though also through rules and scenario design.

I'm incredibly excited about this one. In fact I jumped the gun and started the old thread as soon as I got info on this from facebook. And I backed as soon as I could.....hoping we can get enough people happy with the content and the promise of this one that we hit (or even easily hit) the goal.

I want this project to be successful. And I've come to grips long ago that truly hard science fiction hasn't been widely popular for a long, long time and may never be again. A space fantasy universe with some science fiction elements is probably the way to get the broadest appeal.

Sounds good Albino Squirrel! Actually most of the discussion going on on the forums right now is regarding the background for the various species, and especially about the PanHumans - I guess they are the concept that needs the most formation, so why not post your ideas over there if you haven't done so already?

I like this bit from the interview on BoLS

Is it an IGOUGO system along the lines of 40K?

Nope - the basic turn sequence is by alternating unit activation and individual units can be activated multiple times during a turn up to the total number of activations set for that turn - called the escalation level. As individual units take actions this can trigger reactions - such as a firefight or close quarter fighting - or opposing units can test to react with opportunity fire, return fire, and various moves including going to ground. Friendly units can also attempt supporting actions so that groups of units act together rather than in penny packets. So - no - it's certainly not an IGOUGO system - it's a fully integrated activation sequence that keeps the pace flowing and makes sure both sides are fully involved at all times.

Sounds rather like the system used for Starship troopers? Or perhaps close combat in FoW?

It actually sounds a lot like Bolt Action or Warpath, but with extra reactions added on.

It sounds really, really good actually. I hate games where one side sits and waits and waits like 40k.

 Pacific wrote:
Sounds good Albino Squirrel! Actually most of the discussion going on on the forums right now is regarding the background for the various species, and especially about the PanHumans - I guess they are the concept that needs the most formation, so why not post your ideas over there if you haven't done so already?

This is a great point, while not everyone is happy with the concept art that is the best reason to get involved now, you can have your say over on the forums even if you're holding out on backing until you see something more to your fancy, odds are much better of seeing something you life if you get involved in the creative process.

Regarding Hard SciFi:

Think of Firefly, BSG, Perry Rhodan, Stargate etc. and you still can have such a multitude of things in it that it boggles the mind.

Regarding style of play:

If you think of AT-43 and Dust you have some elements that are also part of GoA though it is an way improved version with a d10 and a different focus

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Regarding Hard SciFi:

Think of Firefly, BSG, Perry Rhodan, Stargate etc. and you still can have such a multitude of things in it that it boggles the mind.

Really? I think Hard Sci-Fi would really rule out the possibility of faster-than-light-travel. Hell, 'classic' Hard SciFi like Tau Zero essentially take their name from the troubles presented by "hard-sci-fi" space travel.

I think to most people outside of the very specific niches, 'hard' sci fi would amount to something like firefly or the reimagined battlestar. Which is probably the sort of vibe that they're going for. Not the stricter definitions of the phrase...

Truly hard science fiction hasn't been widely popular for a long time. It's a larger niche than miniature gaming, but it still doesn't have broad appeal.

Harder than space fantasy would be nice, but I don't think the background fiction to a miniature game is likely to get to the level of hard SF.

A short story about a panhuman intelligence agent getting reconstructive surgery via nanites so he can infiltrate the xenophobic religious panhuman race would be a good place to start adding some hard SF (and some soft science fiction in the form of the religio-social structure of the target) in the GoA universe though.

I see room for hard SF, but I see it being elements here and there as the game needs a broader appeal.

For definitions of Sci Fi, look here: the Kheper Scale.

I think that for a lot of people, leaving aside snootiness and whatnot, when they say 'I want hard sci-fi' what they mean is that they want the feel of hard sci-fi. So they don't care much about the technological underpinnings, but they want the universe to look and feel like Aliens, which wasn't hard sci-fi - but which did feel hard (oer).

 Compel wrote:
I think to most people outside of the very specific niches, 'hard' sci fi would amount to something like firefly or the reimagined battlestar. Which is probably the sort of vibe that they're going for. Not the stricter definitions of the phrase...

Um. Well, Wikipedia (rightly IMO) brands both Firefly and Battlestar Galactica as 'Space Opera'. They have all the woosh of phew-phew laser guns, artificial gravity without any good technological explanation, no space-travel hazards whatsoever (even outside FTL), etc.., etc..

Don't think Wikipedia is a very specific niche.

And it's not like these series even attempt to ground things in technology in ways that would allow you say they are, perhaps, "imperfect" hard-sci-fi that's been trying to get their but took some liberties on the way. They are space-adventure stories of the most "soft sci-fi" kind. They don't want to be anything other than that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
For definitions of Sci Fi, look here: the Kheper Scale.

I think that for a lot of people, leaving aside snootiness and whatnot, when they say 'I want hard sci-fi' what they mean is that they want the feel of hard sci-fi. So they don't care much about the technological underpinnings, but they want the universe to look and feel like Aliens, which wasn't hard sci-fi - but which did feel hard (oer).

Yes and no. I think Alien/Aliens was more or less a "hard-sci-fi" (of the non-ultra-nerd-variety) where it mattered, at the heart of the story of the confrontation of human vs. Alien.

Yes, they threw hard-sci-fi out of the window to set things up for the plot, such as giving the cast a FTL-jaunt across the universe into the action. But it's not integral to the story either.

But things like Firefly/Battlestar Galactica don't attempt to emulate a hard-sci-fi feel, even with liberties taken to make the story work. The head-on indulge in phew-phew laser-duels of Buck 'The Duke' Rogers in Space. The funk is what drives their stories.

[edit]

That Kheper Scale thing also puts Firefly into the category of Very Soft Sci-Fi

 Charles Rampant wrote:
For definitions of Sci Fi, look here: the Kheper Scale.

I think that for a lot of people, leaving aside snootiness and whatnot, when they say 'I want hard sci-fi' what they mean is that they want the feel of hard sci-fi. So they don't care much about the technological underpinnings, but they want the universe to look and feel like Aliens, which wasn't hard sci-fi - but which did feel hard (oer).

Yes I think that's what I would probably go with as well. Something like Firefly I thought of as Cowboys in Space, and more of a softer sci-fi (i.e. as was said about BGS, it was more about the plot and characters rather than the science behind it).

I could see this possibly having elements of someone like Peter F Hamilton or Iain M Banks (Culture series) - where you can tell some thought has gone into something being feasible or not, an extension of tropes that are in our own societies when extended into the future, rather than just 'X is fighting X, and has giant robot plasma arms cause it looks cool'. So, perhaps something more like Infinity (admittedly easier because it is in the near future) rather than Warhammer 40k or Warpath.

Actually, come to think of it I think this is a necessity - if there is going to be a link between player games and the affects on the game universe, there has to be some kind of causal link (and believability) in the way things work and connect with one another. The moment a hero holds up an attack on a mountain pass 'for one hundred days or nights' or 'carves a name onto the losers heart' then that impression will be shattered.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Regarding Hard SciFi:

Think of Firefly, BSG, Perry Rhodan, Stargate etc. and you still can have such a multitude of things in it that it boggles the mind.

Really? I think Hard Sci-Fi would really rule out the possibility of faster-than-light-travel. Hell, 'classic' Hard SciFi like Tau Zero essentially take their name from the troubles presented by "hard-sci-fi" space travel.

Faster-than-light-travel : space time distortion, quantum tunnelling, special relativity, ...

Why wouldn't it fit into a hard scifi setting.

edit:
Oh you mean the system used in BSG, ok that's another thing :p I just tought travelling faster than light !

Actually NASA started a programm just a few weeks ago that has as its goal the development of an faster-than-light-drive. And that was no joke by NASA.

Some poeple seem to mix up todays technological level with hard scifi.

Most of the technology in BSG and and Firefly are not that difficult to explain most of the knowledge and technology we even posses today. One of our main problems today is mainly the energy source that delivers enough energy to drive such vessels. But with ITER (Tokamak, 1st generation reactor) and Wendelstein VII (Stellerator, 2nd generation) fusion reactors being tested and improved such energy sources are only a matter of time not if.

Oh and the modern BSG did not use any futuristic weapons. Nearly all weapons were ballistic systems and ships were protected by armor rather than shields. Also the vector-drive systems of the smaller ships are already in use in a more primitive form in space shuttels and SU-37/Typhoons military-jets. The battles were very reminiscent of the battles we know from WWII attacks on carriers or battleships.

Do they mean 'hard fiction' as in darker, grittier rather than hard science?

Nope, more like in derived from todays technology but with some fictional leeway.

In the end it´s science fiction and not todays science fact.

So far from whats on hand? There are more then enough actions starting that we have a good jumping off point to get in on the ground floor with. Even with the conversation at hand, we can add in the Gibson, Ellison, Abrahms stuff in along for the ride.

The humanoid races seem to be evolving pretty well, yet I see a good nitch for additional races, such as the larger humans because of the lighter gravety on the plant, the smaller ones, based on the feeble diet, the scrounging space pirate scavengers, the slaver race that is looking for slave stock, etc.etc.etc.....

Not to mention the supercomputer using humans as the rats in a giant maze, and evolution experiments, or the souless frankenstien abomination.

Theres an ongoing thread going on from some holier then thou cat, but I'd like to see a few evil devil women, or some just plain arbitrarily mean ones that are just going to kill stuff ala Hostel.
Stacked to the gills, but ready to kill. Maybe even some that make a few skinsuits, or some ripped off face masks.

Maybe even some of these hard evil wenches with some cyber implants that are evolved and use the computer in a symbiotic relationship, maybe even a collective conciousness thing going.

More they attack, the harder they are to kill sort of Hulk thing going on.

All in all, there seems already a great amount of play in the discussion, and it seems also to be going in a pretty good direction as well.

All those in favour of "space fantasy" with "hard sci-fi elements" say, aye...

What’s going to happen here? Will we get hard-, nearly-hard-, or completely flaccid sci-fi? Or will we be subjected to a product that appeals to the masses?

To use one of my favourite footballing expressions, at the end of the day, whilst I am sure there is every good-willed intention of making the game “hard sci-fi”, what will probably happen is that it will end up primarily containing elements that have mass appeal. Hopefully this falls well short of battle-armoured super-human gene-enhanced space Vikings (and I am sure it will)! I reckon they'll sneak in at least some hard(ish) sci-fi.

At the end of the end of the day (eh?) presentation is Number One: it needs to look good. So, the miniatures need to be [expletive deleted]-ing awesome, the rulebook has to be superbly laid-out, with pant-wettingly incredible cover art, superb concept designs, the stories need to be written to a very high-calibre, no spelling/grammar mistakes etc etc and so on and so forth blah blah blah…

Whilst I – like most, I imagine – have some reservations, I am in fact very keen on the project and the idea behind it. The road ahead will no doubt be long and arduous (and paved with fools, cynics and those nasty little unoriginal ideas), but I’m up for walking it.

Bring it…

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
In the end it´s science fiction and not todays science fact.

this +1

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Sorry, agustin what about genetic engeneering is not hard scifi?

The part where they let furries anywhere near the DNA splicing consoles.

I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the 'online' concept here:

If, as they say, how those 'online' campaigns go will dictate what models come out, who has access to new stuff, etc, what is to prevent a massive 'runaway leader' scenario similar to 40k, where 80% of your people are playing a single race (Space Marines) that always gets updates, new toys, etc, and the other 20% are left languishing for new stuff (Eldar, Nids)?

I love the 'notion' of the online world wide campaigns, but I'm still just a bit confused by it all. Maybe I'm just thick.

Also...and I hate to be 'that guy'.... but how are the gene modified races in this game different than the ones done for the Nomads in Infinity?

Regardless, I'm interested. I'll need to see more before dropping some cheddar, but I've got it starred.