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 Trondheim wrote:
Now I may be simple minded, but I hate to ask why some people go to such lengths to claim that you need to assemble a model in a certain way, and to be honest. Who actually would refuse to play someone if their LR had the guns mounted at the back or front? Seriously if this is such a huge problem I think people may need to get out more.

On topic : If you ask me it maters not, front or back is just a mater of personal taste I suppose.

This. I see this a lot in rules arguments and model arguments (usually model arguments). The classic internet tough guy syndrome. People act all tough and debate this on the internet, but in real life wouldn't actually do anything about it (except maybe vent about it on the internet later)

I've seen it both ways. It makes sense for them to be in front, after all like you say, who wants to embark/disembark in front of those guns?!

I don't think it provides an unreasonable advantage, as it's an option provided by GW. Like others have said, anyone that whines over 1-2 inches isn't going to be fun to play with anyway. They're probably just not very confident in their skills and list.

This doesn't even count as a conversion. I imagine the same applies for Rhinos with the turret positioned more towards the front too.

The only MFA that I'd be concerned with is something that could DRAMATICALLY change the possible outcome of a game, which as far as I can see, won't.

Complaining about it would be extremely unreasonable and nitpicky I think. I have a pretty down to earth view on things like this and legitimate conversions. If there's no real effect on gameplay, what difference could it make? Part of this hobby is using imagination! All my side sponsons will be to the front once mine come in.

these people who are complaining about sponsons being mounted up, when that is cleary the way to do it for some models...


are my guardsmen converted to be death cult assasins modelling for advantage as well?

after all, the 15$ a pop metal figs, of which there are only two poses, only come with swords,

and here I am putting axes and maces on the death cult assasins

is that going to shatter the game for you as well?

easysauce wrote:
these people who are complaining about sponsons being mounted up, when that is cleary the way to do it for some models...


are my guardsmen converted to be death cult assasins modelling for advantage as well?

after all, the 15$ a pop metal figs, of which there are only two poses, only come with swords,

and here I am putting axes and maces on the death cult assasins

is that going to shatter the game for you as well?

Totally, because you MFA and it isn't stated in the BRB that you are allowed to!
/Endsarcasm

So if placing the weapons on the front is MFA, is deploying a landraider backwards Placing for advantage?

It's an armour 14 box. It really in no way matters at all.

If one must follow the "model kit instructons" I suggest you try to build a Dakkajet with 3 supashootas.

You'd have to build a plane with the wings from another plane. That would break these... rules?

I dunno, I never did figure out where the storm bolter is meant to attach on a Sisters rhino.

Plenty of official GW examples have the guns on the front spot.

In fact, the original concept art for the current generation Land Raider had them on the front.

The old school Land Raiders had the guns forward of the doors too.


It's just that at some point, some moron building the first studio set pieces didn't think for a second about how ludicrous it would be to have weapons on an assault transport that couldn't be fired as the assault troops disembarked.


Put them on the front, and then sucker punch the first dude who tries to say you're cheating.

Tell him I said it was okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgf wrote:

Best part about the internet nothing ever goes away Original LR Crusader box.

https://www.google.com/search?q=land+raider+crusader+box&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=m5d&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=tuc5UeK3OofX2QXdpoDIDA&ved=0CDMQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=922#imgrc=ocQ4ZzvbcbvSwM%3A%3BWupeKQkr7WPhiM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi.ebayimg.com%252Ft%252Fspace-marine-land-raider-crusader-older-box-nib-%252F00%252Fs%252FMTIwMFgxNjAw%252F%2524T2eC16VHJHYE9nzpeDFwBQlznd68O!~~60_35.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Fspace-marine-land-raider-crusader-older-box-nib_W0QQitemZ121013516563QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS%253AB%253ASRCH%253AUS%253A101%3B300%3B225

I actually still have that box. Bought the LRC way back when it was very first released because I thought it looked so cool.

It has a bunch of bits stored in it.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Plenty of official GW examples have the guns on the front spot.

Except none of that matters.

As much as it seems to upset some of you, Peregrine is right. If there are clear instructions for where to put the sponsons, then that is where they go. Simple as that.

The only concise arguments I've seen are "Well, that's TFG behavior" and "Well, look at this picture of it done the other way!" but ask yourself if pictures and concepts of rudeness supersede actual building instructions. They may be more important morally, but instructions are instructions. If you do not follow the instructions, you are (by definition) modeling for advantage.

MFA is MFA. It seems that Dakkadakka gets pretty upset at the idea of MFA being called on them, but its a very real thing. If you are called for MFA, you have to use measurements as if the model were modeled properly.

-TheCaptain

Ps. 2" may not seem like much, but next time you get shot with a flamer, allow the guy to move it further into your ranks up to 2". You'll notice a difference

Because this isn't in YMDC I'm going to chip in my tuppence worth.
Assemble the model with the sponsons either front or back, and if anyone kicks up a stink about it in a friendly game roll a dice for it. 1-3 your opponent is right, 4-6 you are. Otherwise ask the TO for a definitive ruling.

I'm still waiting the rule quote which says that assembly instructions are part of the rules but the modelling section isn't.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm still waiting the rule quote which says that assembly instructions are part of the rules but the modelling section isn't.

Does the modeling section say "Sponsons can go anywhere you please?"

Because assembly instructions are rules for how to put together the models, and the models are included in the rules of 40k. If you break the "modeling rules", then that isn't a model allowed by the rules.

Modeling instructions are a GW publication telling you how to do something in order to use said model in a game of 40k. If you think those aren't clearly rules, then well...You might not be right.

Edit:

To be clear, in a game, I could never care less about anything than MFA. Put your sponsons wherever you want. I've seen someone put heavy bolter sponsons from a Valkyrie in the Back hatch so that it poops out HB rounds. Played him happily.

But this thread isn't about what you'd do, or what would matter to you. It's a black-and-white discussion of "Is it MFA or not".

Well we're no closer to a decisive result. And now I am a scared to leave my basement gaming area. Think Howard Hughes with uncut finger nails surrounded by 40k minis.

 TheCaptain wrote:


Does the modeling section say "Sponsons can go anywhere you please?"

It has plenty of examples and instructions on building models differently than by the instructions that come in the boxes, so, implicitly, yes.

Because assembly instructions are rules for how to put together the models, and the models are included in the rules of 40k. If you break the "modeling rules", then that isn't a model allowed by the rules.

I think they're more like suggestions...

Modeling instructions are a GW publication telling you how to do something in order to use said model in a game of 40k. If you think those aren't clearly rules, then well...You might not be right.

So modelling section is rules?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Plenty of official GW examples have the guns on the front spot.

Except none of that matters.

As much as it seems to upset some of you, Peregrine is right. If there are clear instructions for where to put the sponsons, then that is where they go. Simple as that.

The only concise arguments I've seen are "Well, that's TFG behavior" and "Well, look at this picture of it done the other way!" but ask yourself if pictures and concepts of rudeness supersede actual building instructions. They may be more important morally, but instructions are instructions. If you do not follow the instructions, you are (by definition) modeling for advantage.

MFA is MFA. It seems that Dakkadakka gets pretty upset at the idea of MFA being called on them, but its a very real thing. If you are called for MFA, you have to use measurements as if the model were modeled properly.

-TheCaptain

Ps. 2" may not seem like much, but next time you get shot with a flamer, allow the guy to move it further into your ranks up to 2". You'll notice a difference

Yet some of the model variants instructions tell you to put them in the front

Rules are not the same as instructions. And the modeling instructions are not telling you how to use something in a game of W40k, they are advising you on how to build a plastic model.

Why am I willing to bet that some of the people insisting on instructions being followed here are the same people who insist FW is not legal...

Hang on, and forgive me if I am wrong here but I have heard extensive arguments from people on here that Forgeworld is not official due to not mentioning it in the BRB. There is no mention of model assembly instructions being "rules".

Again I was worried about the perceived placement parts of my model in question. The intention was never to MFA. I was concerned with the perception that it might give others as to m play style.

I think I will default to what my LFGS community says, when we have this discussion in person.

I don't own a Land Raider so I just went and had a read of my old Ravenwing assembly instructions. I am faced with several problems;

1) It quite clearly states that plastic mould lines and injection markings should be removed using a modelling knife. Should I be automatically disqualified because I normally use clippers for some of these tasks, or just give my opponent bonus victory points?

2) Also, the instructions say the modelling knife should be sharp. Now, that leads to many smaller problems. GW sell a Hobby Knife, but not a Modelling Knife. Does a Hobby Knife count? If not, is acceptable to use non-GW equipment? What counts as a modelling knife anyway? I use a Craft Knife. Is this even the same thing? Also, my sharp knife is at my parents house for making terrain, and the only one I have left in my flat is not sharp. Should I refrain from removing mould lines at all? What about problem 1) above? Again, if I use an inappropriate knife, do I need my opponent's permission, or must I offer to concede? If not, how many victory points do I lose as a penalty for each infringement? Do I lose victory points for each inappropriately prepared model, or only a single penalty for the army as a whole?

3) If I make some cuts towards my fingers, do I lose victory points? Or only if I accidentally cut myself?

Please help!

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Well we're no closer to a decisive result. And now I am a scared to leave my basement gaming area. Think Howard Hughes with uncut finger nails surrounded by 40k minis.

Don't worry, most people won't bite you and will happily play with you no matter how you place the sponsons . (Unless you brag about your awesome tactical mind that told you to place them here to maximize the potential of the unit... but if you are the kind to brag about it, you deserve the cold looks people would give you, lol) If you want to be paranoid about it, follow the instructions given with the model.

I think that people are mostly arguing between "Modeling for Advantage" and "Modeling with Unintentional Advantage" because doing MFA implies that you are a WAAC player, which is pretty much an insult for many...

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Hang on, and forgive me if I am wrong here but I have heard extensive arguments from people on here that Forgeworld is not official due to not mentioning it in the BRB. There is no mention of model assembly instructions being "rules".

Again I was worried about the perceived placement parts of my model in question. The intention was never to MFA. I was concerned with the perception that it might give others as to m play style.

I think I will default to what my LFGS community says, when we have this discussion in person.

If anyone has a problem with LR sponsons in front show them picture of Forge World Mk II B raider that is intended to be used as standard LR. Sponsons in front is the only way it can be assembled.

 washout77 wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Plenty of official GW examples have the guns on the front spot.

Except none of that matters.

As much as it seems to upset some of you, Peregrine is right. If there are clear instructions for where to put the sponsons, then that is where they go. Simple as that.

The only concise arguments I've seen are "Well, that's TFG behavior" and "Well, look at this picture of it done the other way!" but ask yourself if pictures and concepts of rudeness supersede actual building instructions. They may be more important morally, but instructions are instructions. If you do not follow the instructions, you are (by definition) modeling for advantage.

MFA is MFA. It seems that Dakkadakka gets pretty upset at the idea of MFA being called on them, but its a very real thing. If you are called for MFA, you have to use measurements as if the model were modeled properly.

-TheCaptain

Ps. 2" may not seem like much, but next time you get shot with a flamer, allow the guy to move it further into your ranks up to 2". You'll notice a difference

Yet some of the model variants instructions tell you to put them in the front

All I'm saying is "Follow the instructions, or you're MFA"

Wherever they tell you to put then for said variant.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm still waiting the rule quote which says that assembly instructions are part of the rules but the modelling section isn't.

Does the modeling section say "Sponsons can go anywhere you please?".

The point where your "logic" collapses.

So, if the instructions are hard, uncompromising rules for how the model is supposed to be put together, are not the pictures of the models being used in games in official Games Workshop material not also hard, uncompromising rules for how the models are supposed to be used in the game?



I'll be waiting. We all will.


But nobody will blame you if you show yourself to the Thread Exit.

 Crimson wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


Does the modeling section say "Sponsons can go anywhere you please?"

It has plenty of examples and instructions on building models differently than by the instructions that come in the boxes, so, implicitly, yes.

Because assembly instructions are rules for how to put together the models, and the models are included in the rules of 40k. If you break the "modeling rules", then that isn't a model allowed by the rules.

I think they're more like suggestions...

Modeling instructions are a GW publication telling you how to do something in order to use said model in a game of 40k. If you think those aren't clearly rules, then well...You might not be right.

So modelling section is rules?

"Implicitly" and "I think"?

You're interpreting now. Which is all fine, and leads to friendlier games, but when you try to add your own interpretation to GW's rules, things get fuzzy. Like this thread.

Everyone thinks you should be able to put sponsons wherever. Which is fine. But the instructions tell you where to put them. Those are the rules. Whether you care or not is another thing entirely.

 TheCaptain wrote:
All I'm saying is "Follow the instructions, or you're MFA"

That has no basis in the rules.

Unless you have a page and graph reference.

 TheCaptain wrote:

"Implicitly" and "I think"?

You're interpreting now. Which is all fine, and leads to friendlier games, but when you try to add your own interpretation to GW's rules, things get fuzzy. Like this thread.

Everyone thinks you should be able to put sponsons wherever. Which is fine. But the instructions tell you where to put them. Those are the rules. Whether you care or not is another thing entirely.

So instructions are rules (somehow), modelling section says you can alter your models and kit-bash, but this is not rules (somehow)?

This thread has, if nothing else, been invaluable in that it shows me who should be on my ignore list for having opinions too silly to bother reading.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 washout77 wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Plenty of official GW examples have the guns on the front spot.

Except none of that matters.

As much as it seems to upset some of you, Peregrine is right. If there are clear instructions for where to put the sponsons, then that is where they go. Simple as that.

The only concise arguments I've seen are "Well, that's TFG behavior" and "Well, look at this picture of it done the other way!" but ask yourself if pictures and concepts of rudeness supersede actual building instructions. They may be more important morally, but instructions are instructions. If you do not follow the instructions, you are (by definition) modeling for advantage.

MFA is MFA. It seems that Dakkadakka gets pretty upset at the idea of MFA being called on them, but its a very real thing. If you are called for MFA, you have to use measurements as if the model were modeled properly.

-TheCaptain

Ps. 2" may not seem like much, but next time you get shot with a flamer, allow the guy to move it further into your ranks up to 2". You'll notice a difference

Yet some of the model variants instructions tell you to put them in the front

All I'm saying is "Follow the instructions, or you're MFA"

Wherever they tell you to put then for said variant.

Not always. In the case this exists, and im not gonna argue that point, is making any other pose for models besides how it tells me in the instructions MFA too? I haven't looked at IG instructions in a while, I don't really need it to build a guardsman anymore, but I don't think it tells you that you can/how to put on a melta-gun. Then again, it could (I haven't looked in a while, and I don't have a copy).

Anywho, im not getting too deep in this. To me, no one I have ever seen has ever argued the position of a LR sponson in person. No one who has ever done it as well, including me, has ever seen significant benefit from it (usually because you get about an 1" forward and no where else ).

Lastly, the only variant that it could possibly make a difference (the flamer) tells you to put it in the front so...this argument is kinda moot

only thing I care about is WYSIWYG and model size/height...


if your dreadknight or flyers are somehow only 2" off the ground,

I may have a curb I ask you to kiss


in 14 years of playing 40k... I have only gone up against 1 land raider ever.....

and it survived 1 turn, so im not too worried about there being two options for the sponsons...


also, what are instructions? my figs dont come with these ins truck sions.... does that mean when I assemble them I am MFA too?

easysauce wrote:
truck sions

New Ork vehicle?

easysauce wrote:

Also, what are instructions?

I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, but this tickled me.

Seriously, I don't think I've ever read the silly piece of paper that comes with my cool models.

Edit: Actually I did need to look at the Drop Pod instructions after scratching my head for a couple of seconds.

I think your fine. GW encourages us to convert and alter the models for variety.

One thing that does suck was you ruined my idea. I wanted to loot a landraider and stick a big cannon on top for my orks looted wagon and now I can't :(. Never thought about the KFF thing.