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Hmmm does her ability to nullify spells work on GK who buff themselves?
Or is their ability to cause ID and suck you into the sword, actually target the Grot/maly unit. Not to bad i guess.. Ill stick with my baron though, stealth d-grenades and hit and run do very well for me.

Pretty sure it works on force weapons but i could be wrong. I prefer baron/urien as my HQs with grots too but i guess malys is an option. Urien is so overpriced.

Lady Malys stops all psychic powers. Force Weapons, etc. She also nullifies the effects of Hammerhand, or any type of psychic power that effects her unit in any way. The Grotstar absolutely needs her.

Urien is there to answer challenges and make the Grots fearless with a bunch of pain tokens.

 Nivoglibina wrote:
And Helldrakes ruin a Wraithstars day anyway. I don't think it qualifies at all.

No way,

my list (1750):


Eldrad
Farseer with jetbike,stones, fortune, guide, doom

3 guardian jetbikes with shurikencannon
3 guardian jetbikes with shurikencannon
10 wraithgaurd with warlock (conseal)

5 firedragons with exarch (both powers)

3 warwalkers with scatterlasers

defenceline with quadgun

Dark eldar allies:

Baron

5 dark eldar warriors

5 beastmasters with 5 kyhmerea and 6 razorwing flock

When facing 3 helldrakes I go for the 4+ inv save (forboding). If eldrad doesnt get it I will protect the wraithgaurd with the baron + eldrad + farseer (fortune). Firedragon exarch with quadgun really hurts those helldrakes but if any of them comes within 12 inch of the wraithgaurd the will start falling down. When iam not getting 'foreboding' I would probably have the 'reroll saves" power so that Helldrake 5+ inv save also doesnt work as well. Wraithguard shooting with guide will hit at sum point.

Even when all 3 helldrakes come out of reserves and blast away..I got about 12 hits (3x4 models), thats gonna be 6 wounds that I can easily counter with my characters with inv save. Only my normal farseer will dodge a few bullets with "look out sir" to make sure he stay's alive.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Destructiors are a psychic power. by nature of psychic powers they can be dtw. There is no instance where a psychic test is required to dtw. It is stated as a psychic power. Also, it cannot overwatch via the faq for the same reason.

Sorry, i forgot to include that my 2nd paragraph was referring to the durability of wraithguard.

Seer councils are durable, but dont do damage. If you are taking all wytchblades (95% of people dont) then you are ineffective vs armor, especially transports since it takes 2 turns to kill the occupants if they can disembark. If you take spears you are ineffective at killing in melee since you average ~8 wounds, so 3 unsaved. Then we can go into dealing with opposing deathstars, which gets even more ugly when 2+ saves are thrown in.


I have denied hit and run via a tervigon's spawns. I also saw a nid player do that to beat a Eldar player who was using harlequins. rolled 11, placed them 6" away and ran them 6" to surround a harlequin squad that had just broke from a genestealer squad (this was 5th). Tervigon a gaunt squad, and another genestealer squad assaulted while hive guard and another gaunt squad blocked the other routes (without fnp gaunts were more of a liability in 5th so why would you assault with all the gaunt squads). Tbh, its not that hard since its a normal move that is restricted by the 1" rule. Bikes, however, ignore blocking units so they cannot be denied without a silly amount of work.

I think you may have missed the part in the rulebook where it states : " If a psychic power is targetted on an enemy unit, and the psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved".

Clearly, Deny the Witch cannot be used on Destructor because you do not roll for a psychic test to use that power, it just automatically happens. And Deny the Witch does most certainly require the person casting the initial spell to pass a psychic test before you can try to deny the witch.

This would appear very contentious. Deny the Witch states if the psychic test was passed and the target is an enemy unit, they can try to deny the witch. The Eldar FAQ states that Warlocks are level 0 and do no require a warp charge as they are always on. To me, this means Destructor does not use a Warp Charge and the Warlock automatically passes the psychic test as their power is always on. Additionally, you can't use Destructor on Overwatch, inferring because it is a psychic power.

Not saying your interpretation is incorrect, but contentious. I've never played it by your interpretation nor seen anyone else play it where you cannot try to deny the witch against Destructor. I don't think either interpretation is very clear, but one interpretation is a very significant advantage for the Seer Council and as a personal philosophy, when in doubt, use the least advantageous interpretation. This particular rule is a huge reason why I'm not overly sold on using a Seer Council. I've had better success with the Harliestar, Wraithstar and have been victim of the Beastpack combo.

I've played a lot with the Harliestar and a few things emerged.
-Eldrad is slow and it takes quite a bit of thought for getting Harlies where they need to go. I've opted to prefer a Farseer on bike as he is now more mobile and has fleet.
-With Vect, I've run into several occasions where Vect kills so many models, that it becomes impossible for the Harlies to swing at the their initiative because they cannot get into b2b with any other models. However, Vect is still super good, but nearly too good with the Harlies.
-I don't really have to get across the entire board to be effective. Having this unit get to the center of the table is usually far enough.
-I like the unit a lot, but you really need several Jetbike units to be your scoring units. Your army really needs to be build around any of these Deathstarts.

Of late, I am liking the Wraithstar. Baron/Eldrad/10 WG/Spiritseer w/ Conceal has been really good. I enjoy that I have a shooting unit that has significant AP2 and with Guide cast, is a threat to any flier in the game. The Baron's Defensive Grenades, Hit and Run, and Fortuned Shadowfield really keeps this unit from being decimated in assault and their return fire is quite dangerous. IG blob units don't really care about Wraithcannons, but again, you have to build your army around any deathstar's weakness.

Not knocking a bikecouncil, but I've opted for the least advantageous interpretation regarding DtW and Destructor, which significantly reduces their effectiveness. I also locally face SW Rune Priests and having Fortune or Invisibility nullified without any real chance to recast it is devastating to this unit. YMMV depending on what you locally face. Additionally, a GK Stormraven screws this unit which is hugely game changing. I'd have to pray my Dragon/Quad Gun can drop the Stormraven immediately. They are good, but the game really hangs in the balance with that one cirmcumstance.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Lady Malys stops all psychic powers. Force Weapons, etc. She also nullifies the effects of Hammerhand, or any type of psychic power that effects her unit in any way. The Grotstar absolutely needs her.

Urien is there to answer challenges and make the Grots fearless with a bunch of pain tokens.

Im pretty sure any time a GK player targets himself with a spell (hammer hand). Malys is powerless to stop it. She isn't ngal stormcaller. The Spell has to target her unit. Furthermore Thats why i have a farseer in the unit/on the board. GK have to make 3d6 leadership. It shuts down a lot of spells.

I like the idea of malys. but i like the idea of urien ignoring d3 attacks on his squad. The baron hiding in the back of the pack, and then using his full skyboard movement to jump to the front buying you 2 extra inches. Urien has a great weapon, and baron on the charge... str 7? str6 hammer of wrath?

Baron gives hit and run as well all know, but most importantly defense grenades and stealth. 4 + cover save on grots terrain hopping is really good. I know they are slow.. i understand but there just a big screen/diversion while you DL and Poison everything on the board anyway... i mean anyone who plays you must know that by now.

I wouldnt say Malys is a must, i have done great without her, and i know ordosean rolls people without here well with his DE-star

I'll let sean play devil's advocate but I believe he is changing his deathstar up a bit. Here is what we have not discussed ...
We are building the deathstar - but we have not really asked what we need to support it. The house needs a foundation. When I played Sean's list ( admittedly I tweaked it) I was not all that happy with the support units. His list is predicated on running a lot of foot units and an AGL. He uses GJBs ( a unit i consuider mediocre at best) coming in from reserves to grab objectives.
Here is what a tournament DE/Eldar list uses without a deathstar ...

1) Defnitely a farseer ... sometimes with just one power and runes ...
2) Venoms or raiders witjh wariors ( occasionally wracks and haemie) - 4 or 5
3) Guardian defenders in a wave serpent or on foot ... shuriken cannons on wave serpent / scatterlasers on foot - 1-2
4) Truborn or fire dragons
5) Razorwings and ravagers
6) Sometimes a bastion or AGL

So what do you use which the various types of deathstars to be competitive

 Sarigar wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Destructiors are a psychic power. by nature of psychic powers they can be dtw. There is no instance where a psychic test is required to dtw. It is stated as a psychic power. Also, it cannot overwatch via the faq for the same reason.

Sorry, i forgot to include that my 2nd paragraph was referring to the durability of wraithguard.

Seer councils are durable, but dont do damage. If you are taking all wytchblades (95% of people dont) then you are ineffective vs armor, especially transports since it takes 2 turns to kill the occupants if they can disembark. If you take spears you are ineffective at killing in melee since you average ~8 wounds, so 3 unsaved. Then we can go into dealing with opposing deathstars, which gets even more ugly when 2+ saves are thrown in.


I have denied hit and run via a tervigon's spawns. I also saw a nid player do that to beat a Eldar player who was using harlequins. rolled 11, placed them 6" away and ran them 6" to surround a harlequin squad that had just broke from a genestealer squad (this was 5th). Tervigon a gaunt squad, and another genestealer squad assaulted while hive guard and another gaunt squad blocked the other routes (without fnp gaunts were more of a liability in 5th so why would you assault with all the gaunt squads). Tbh, its not that hard since its a normal move that is restricted by the 1" rule. Bikes, however, ignore blocking units so they cannot be denied without a silly amount of work.

I think you may have missed the part in the rulebook where it states : " If a psychic power is targetted on an enemy unit, and the psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved".

Clearly, Deny the Witch cannot be used on Destructor because you do not roll for a psychic test to use that power, it just automatically happens. And Deny the Witch does most certainly require the person casting the initial spell to pass a psychic test before you can try to deny the witch.

This would appear very contentious. Deny the Witch states if the psychic test was passed and the target is an enemy unit, they can try to deny the witch. The Eldar FAQ states that Warlocks are level 0 and do no require a warp charge as they are always on. To me, this means Destructor does not use a Warp Charge and the Warlock automatically passes the psychic test as their power is always on. Additionally, you can't use Destructor on Overwatch, inferring because it is a psychic power.

Not saying your interpretation is incorrect, but contentious. I've never played it by your interpretation nor seen anyone else play it where you cannot try to deny the witch against Destructor. I don't think either interpretation is very clear, but one interpretation is a very significant advantage for the Seer Council and as a personal philosophy, when in doubt, use the least advantageous interpretation. This particular rule is a huge reason why I'm not overly sold on using a Seer Council. I've had better success with the Harliestar, Wraithstar and have been victim of the Beastpack combo.

I've played a lot with the Harliestar and a few things emerged.
-Eldrad is slow and it takes quite a bit of thought for getting Harlies where they need to go. I've opted to prefer a Farseer on bike as he is now more mobile and has fleet.
-With Vect, I've run into several occasions where Vect kills so many models, that it becomes impossible for the Harlies to swing at the their initiative because they cannot get into b2b with any other models. However, Vect is still super good, but nearly too good with the Harlies.
-I don't really have to get across the entire board to be effective. Having this unit get to the center of the table is usually far enough.
-I like the unit a lot, but you really need several Jetbike units to be your scoring units. Your army really needs to be build around any of these Deathstarts.

Of late, I am liking the Wraithstar. Baron/Eldrad/10 WG/Spiritseer w/ Conceal has been really good. I enjoy that I have a shooting unit that has significant AP2 and with Guide cast, is a threat to any flier in the game. The Baron's Defensive Grenades, Hit and Run, and Fortuned Shadowfield really keeps this unit from being decimated in assault and their return fire is quite dangerous. IG blob units don't really care about Wraithcannons, but again, you have to build your army around any deathstar's weakness.

Not knocking a bikecouncil, but I've opted for the least advantageous interpretation regarding DtW and Destructor, which significantly reduces their effectiveness. I also locally face SW Rune Priests and having Fortune or Invisibility nullified without any real chance to recast it is devastating to this unit. YMMV depending on what you locally face. Additionally, a GK Stormraven screws this unit which is hugely game changing. I'd have to pray my Dragon/Quad Gun can drop the Stormraven immediately. They are good, but the game really hangs in the balance with that one cirmcumstance.

But the Eldar codex states "A Warlock's power is available permanently, so he does not need to take a psychic test to use it."

Because of the wording of that one line, you cannot deny the witch on destructor. Because there is no psychic test to use the power. And to deny the witch a psychic test must be passed. Since no test is taken, no deny the witch is allowed.

Baharroth for Fearless, S4 power weapons, and keep up speed.
Baron for (all the stuff he has for only 105pts.
5 BMs and assorted Razorwings and Khymerae.
Pray there are no HellTurkeys.
???
Profit?

Sad part is Bahrroth almost costs more by himself than almost the whole beastpack.

Tsilber wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
Lady Malys stops all psychic powers. Force Weapons, etc. She also nullifies the effects of Hammerhand, or any type of psychic power that effects her unit in any way. The Grotstar absolutely needs her.

Urien is there to answer challenges and make the Grots fearless with a bunch of pain tokens.

Im pretty sure any time a GK player targets himself with a spell (hammer hand). Malys is powerless to stop it. She isn't ngal stormcaller. The Spell has to target her unit. Furthermore Thats why i have a farseer in the unit/on the board. GK have to make 3d6 leadership. It shuts down a lot of spells.

I like the idea of malys. but i like the idea of urien ignoring d3 attacks on his squad. The baron hiding in the back of the pack, and then using his full skyboard movement to jump to the front buying you 2 extra inches. Urien has a great weapon, and baron on the charge... str 7? str6 hammer of wrath?

Baron gives hit and run as well all know, but most importantly defense grenades and stealth. 4 + cover save on grots terrain hopping is really good. I know they are slow.. i understand but there just a big screen/diversion while you DL and Poison everything on the board anyway... i mean anyone who plays you must know that by now.

I wouldnt say Malys is a must, i have done great without her, and i know ordosean rolls people without here well with his DE-star

Technically if you read the Lady Malys ruling, Hammerhand is blocked as well. While the GK squad does target itself, the psychic power still effects Lady Malys unit with a higher strength rating. RAW, her ruling stops it.

With all of the massive Psychic Powers in 6th, enfeeble, hallucination, Grey Knights etc, you need Malys.

The grey knights are buffing their unit... Even when they active the ID weapons, they are targeting their own unit. Hmmm.. wording seems weird..

But its like saying if an enemy unit cast prescience on themselves, if they were to shoot at a lady malys unit they would not get rerolls...

I dont have a rulebook handy, but a blessing i believe clearly says you target your own unit.

I guess another one of those scenarios wishing the best of luck a judge rules in your favor.

As for a "need" Baron, vect, urien, are all much better imo.. specially if you run a farseer.. he makes anything on the board casting a spell roll 3 dice. Clear cut. As said i run Baron, Urien, farsee , grot star. And it has been amazing for me. So if it isnt "broken" (as in failing not over powered lol) dont fix it.

Baharroth for Fearless, S4 power weapons, and keep up speed.
Baron for (all the stuff he has for only 105pts.
5 BMs and assorted Razorwings and Khymerae.

Explain why you add a 200+ character to the unit that grants hit and run when you already have it? He would be better with Urien and Grots but really is not needed anywhere.

Off-Topic:

The first time I saw the term "Grotstar", I thought it was an Ork unit. Now, as I read through this thread, I can't get the image of a horde of defiant ork grots out of my head.

I apologize, please continue.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Destructiors are a psychic power. by nature of psychic powers they can be dtw. There is no instance where a psychic test is required to dtw. It is stated as a psychic power. Also, it cannot overwatch via the faq for the same reason.

Sorry, i forgot to include that my 2nd paragraph was referring to the durability of wraithguard.

Seer councils are durable, but dont do damage. If you are taking all wytchblades (95% of people dont) then you are ineffective vs armor, especially transports since it takes 2 turns to kill the occupants if they can disembark. If you take spears you are ineffective at killing in melee since you average ~8 wounds, so 3 unsaved. Then we can go into dealing with opposing deathstars, which gets even more ugly when 2+ saves are thrown in.


I have denied hit and run via a tervigon's spawns. I also saw a nid player do that to beat a Eldar player who was using harlequins. rolled 11, placed them 6" away and ran them 6" to surround a harlequin squad that had just broke from a genestealer squad (this was 5th). Tervigon a gaunt squad, and another genestealer squad assaulted while hive guard and another gaunt squad blocked the other routes (without fnp gaunts were more of a liability in 5th so why would you assault with all the gaunt squads). Tbh, its not that hard since its a normal move that is restricted by the 1" rule. Bikes, however, ignore blocking units so they cannot be denied without a silly amount of work.

I think you may have missed the part in the rulebook where it states : " If a psychic power is targetted on an enemy unit, and the psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved".

Clearly, Deny the Witch cannot be used on Destructor because you do not roll for a psychic test to use that power, it just automatically happens. And Deny the Witch does most certainly require the person casting the initial spell to pass a psychic test before you can try to deny the witch.

This would appear very contentious. Deny the Witch states if the psychic test was passed and the target is an enemy unit, they can try to deny the witch. The Eldar FAQ states that Warlocks are level 0 and do no require a warp charge as they are always on. To me, this means Destructor does not use a Warp Charge and the Warlock automatically passes the psychic test as their power is always on. Additionally, you can't use Destructor on Overwatch, inferring because it is a psychic power.

Not saying your interpretation is incorrect, but contentious. I've never played it by your interpretation nor seen anyone else play it where you cannot try to deny the witch against Destructor. I don't think either interpretation is very clear, but one interpretation is a very significant advantage for the Seer Council and as a personal philosophy, when in doubt, use the least advantageous interpretation. This particular rule is a huge reason why I'm not overly sold on using a Seer Council. I've had better success with the Harliestar, Wraithstar and have been victim of the Beastpack combo.

I've played a lot with the Harliestar and a few things emerged.
-Eldrad is slow and it takes quite a bit of thought for getting Harlies where they need to go. I've opted to prefer a Farseer on bike as he is now more mobile and has fleet.
-With Vect, I've run into several occasions where Vect kills so many models, that it becomes impossible for the Harlies to swing at the their initiative because they cannot get into b2b with any other models. However, Vect is still super good, but nearly too good with the Harlies.
-I don't really have to get across the entire board to be effective. Having this unit get to the center of the table is usually far enough.
-I like the unit a lot, but you really need several Jetbike units to be your scoring units. Your army really needs to be build around any of these Deathstarts.

Of late, I am liking the Wraithstar. Baron/Eldrad/10 WG/Spiritseer w/ Conceal has been really good. I enjoy that I have a shooting unit that has significant AP2 and with Guide cast, is a threat to any flier in the game. The Baron's Defensive Grenades, Hit and Run, and Fortuned Shadowfield really keeps this unit from being decimated in assault and their return fire is quite dangerous. IG blob units don't really care about Wraithcannons, but again, you have to build your army around any deathstar's weakness.

Not knocking a bikecouncil, but I've opted for the least advantageous interpretation regarding DtW and Destructor, which significantly reduces their effectiveness. I also locally face SW Rune Priests and having Fortune or Invisibility nullified without any real chance to recast it is devastating to this unit. YMMV depending on what you locally face. Additionally, a GK Stormraven screws this unit which is hugely game changing. I'd have to pray my Dragon/Quad Gun can drop the Stormraven immediately. They are good, but the game really hangs in the balance with that one cirmcumstance.

But the Eldar codex states "A Warlock's power is available permanently, so he does not need to take a psychic test to use it."

Because of the wording of that one line, you cannot deny the witch on destructor. Because there is no psychic test to use the power. And to deny the witch a psychic test must be passed. Since no test is taken, no deny the witch is allowed.

I understand your logic and didn't say you were wrong. My statement is that it is contentious. It is a 4th edition codex that they are shoehorning the rules to fit into 6th edition. The FAQ states a Warlock is Mastery level 0 - Warlocks don't need Warp Charges to activate their powers, as they are always on. Again, I get your logic, I simply don't play it that way and have not seen anyone try to play it in the manner you describe. I interpret that it it clearly a psychic power which is trying to target an enemy unit and they would get the deny the witch roll. You are correct that the trigger is successfully passing a psychic test, but the way GW is ambiguous, I interpret the power being 'always on' as there is no need to roll and is assumed they auto pass any required psychic test.

Not saying GW rules are logical or that my interpretation is completely logical, but I do default to the less advantageous interpretation of a rule to ensure myself and my opponent have a good game. Would I like to use Destructors and not allow my opponent to make a Deny the Witch roll? Sure. But, I'll wait for GW to give me an FAQ clarifying this point, or, wait until the new codex comes out.