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Beastpack FTW - Baron and Council trying to get invisibility for support.

right but scissor hand is poison 2, and flesh gauntlet is poison 2 against most things. Rules for poison is it wounds on a fixed number unless a lower result would be required.

Grots are str7 on the charge, so against T5 things the flesh gauntlet is poison 2.. with rerolls. Add this combo to a farseer with a prescience.
Venom blade = 6 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time

Scissorhand = 7 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time

Flesh Gauntlet =6 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time. Causing ID... (for 15 points more than a venom blade, thumbs up IMO )

All 3 of these are great especially with a farseer and prescience.

Don't forget about liquifiers in the grot star

No doubt liquifier can hurt Meq and sometimes teq. But it can also get you out of charge range. The Grot is tough enough without one but it is a preference. I sometimes run it in a smaller squad at lower point levels but less often with the eight man squad.

Liquifiers are better with wracks/hemon on a raider. dropping those templates from any place on the hull is really good.

offtopic for a sec: Show of hands.. anyone ever pull off a kill on a 4-5 wound MC with a hexrifle.. man i dont think i have ever had a person as mad at me in tourney. when i wiped out his big bad tyrannid

I actually like Liquifiers on a Talos - SC and TL LG is my choice. I also use them on my gunboat Wracks as well. However, I included it in the Grot squad example asit is an option many take.

I've heard some hilarious stories of people using hexrifles. A friend used it in a wrack squad with a Haemie and killed Mephiston ... he rolled a 1 then a 6. But the chances of that are astronomical. It is a gimmicky weapon but it is okay on a haemie or in a wrack squad. Sniping is no problem ... you have a 50% chance to wound but your opponent can still make a cover or inv. save. Then he has to fail the characteristic test.

Rules for poison is it wounds on a fixed number unless a lower result would be required.

An aberation with Str7 is going to wound most models before they hit him on a 2+ regardless whether he uses venom blade, scissorhands or flesh gauntlet. He aslo has 6 or 7 attacks to do it. With rerolls usually (prescience in Tsilbar's list. That is pretty effective. They can plow through most squads and MCs if a gauntlet is used.

Tsilber wrote:
right but scissor hand is poison 2, and flesh gauntlet is poison 2 against most things. Rules for poison is it wounds on a fixed number unless a lower result would be required.

Grots are str7 on the charge, so against T5 things the flesh gauntlet is poison 2.. with rerolls. Add this combo to a farseer with a prescience.
Venom blade = 6 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time

Scissorhand = 7 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time

Flesh Gauntlet =6 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time. Causing ID... (for 15 points more than a venom blade, thumbs up IMO )

All 3 of these are great especially with a farseer and prescience.

but against T6 or T5 after the charge
Venom blade = 6 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time
Scissorhand = 7 attacks on the charge, 3's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time
Flesh Gauntlet =6 attacks on the charge, 3's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time.

and against T7 or T6 after the charge
Venom blade = 6 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time
Scissorhand = 7 attacks on the charge, 3's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time
Flesh Gauntlet =6 attacks on the charge, 4's to wound with rerolls to wound almost all the time.

and against T8 or T7 after the charge
Venom blade = 6 attacks on the charge, 2's to wound
Scissorhand = 7 attacks on the charge, 3's to wound
Flesh Gauntlet =6 attacks on the charge, 4's to wound

I agree, its either venom blade or Flesh Gauntlets

 JGrand wrote:

You may be able to hit and run, but the unit is I4, so 1/3 of the time you fail. Also, the unit can be surrounded by horde armies to deny the hit and run, as long as the surrounding guys are not locked in the melee with the WG (nids do this really well).

Uhh...the Baron is I6. For characteristic tests that apply to the unit, you use the highest value in the unit. So, you fail 16% of the time...

He also can reroll the test, so it's even less.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 JGrand wrote:

You may be able to hit and run, but the unit is I4, so 1/3 of the time you fail. Also, the unit can be surrounded by horde armies to deny the hit and run, as long as the surrounding guys are not locked in the melee with the WG (nids do this really well).

Uhh...the Baron is I6. For characteristic tests that apply to the unit, you use the highest value in the unit. So, you fail 16% of the time...

He also can reroll the test, so it's even less.

Baron only rerolls hit run & test if he is with a unit of hellions. Not in a Grot or beast pack death star. (Though i wish he did)

Tsilber wrote:

Baron only rerolls hit run & test if he is with a unit of hellions. Not in a Grot or beast pack death star. (Though i wish he did)

That's not what his rules actually say, nor is it in the FAQ/Errata.

"Master of the Skies: Sathornyx and any unit of HELLIONS he joins may reroll failed dangerous terrain tests. Also, when using THEIR hit and run rule, they can reroll both the initiative test and the dice to determine how far they move. "

the entire entry makes reference to the Baron joining a Hellions unit. The reroll to Initiative test says when using THEIR, it doesnt say when the baron uses his, or when hellions use theirs. It says when a Baron is in a unit of hellions, Their I test can be rerolled.

I cant see that entry being referenced as Barons or Hellions on their own. I guess, best of luck getting a judge to side favorably.

Tsilber wrote:
"Master of the Skies: Sathornyx and any unit of HELLIONS he joins may reroll failed dangerous terrain tests. Also, when using THEIR hit and run rule, they can reroll both the initiative test and the dice to determine how far they move. "

the entire entry makes reference to the Baron joining a Hellions unit. The reroll to Initiative test says when using THEIR, it doesnt say when the baron uses his, or when hellions use theirs. It says when a Baron is in a unit of hellions, Their I test can be rerolled.

I cant see that entry being referenced as Barons or Hellions on their own. I guess, best of luck getting a judge to side favorably.

I can see it being applied to the Baron alone. He is not required to join a unit of Hellions. Their in this case can include the plural or the singular, made plural because it makes more sense more often than the singular.

I wish it were true... but the entry makes reference to him joining a unit of hellions and then references "their" (meaning him and his unit)

By the way you are explaining, then you are also claiming a unit of Hellions without the baron can re-roll Initiative test for hit and run....

I guess we can agree to disagree, as i said though Best of luck having a Judge or T.O. siding in your favor.

Exergy -- for what it's worth, your a smart guy and often I agree with you.
In this case though, I think Tsilber is spot on.

Tsilber wrote:
"Master of the Skies: Sathornyx and

That word means he has these rules, as does Hellions he is joined with. It's pretty much the definition of "and".

In this entry the word "and" is refereeing to the 2 combined....
if it was meant other way why does it even need to say "and a unit of hellions" ... i mean if the baron has the rule regardless.. why bother referencing hellions?

Wouldnt it just say

"Baron and any unit he joins"

"Baron may reroll his initiative test..."

I know it was written in 5th edition, i understand hit and run worked differently. But it is still rules as written. I guess we can debate it back and fourth or just agree to disagree. I see the point you are making, but if that Baron isnt with hellions the reroll is not happening on any table im playing on. To me it seems like exploiting the rules.

Anyway i guess we all agree however that a Baron needs to be in any deathstar DE unit weather Grots or Beast

Im actually in the camp that does believe that baron can reroll the tests no matter who he is with... and Ive never had anyone tell me other wise in tournaments or whatnot.

Tsilber wrote:

Anyway i guess we all agree however that a Baron needs to be in any deathstar DE unit weather Grots or Beast

And Im actually moving away from using baron at all. Partly because of the above argument and also over reliance on hit and run, and most of the time not needing it. I miss the grenades but so far it hasnt had a huge impact. He is ridiculously useful and helpful for his points cost, but I've been trying out some slightly more badass choices.

Also whenever Im in a restricted force org event... like a team event that only allows one HQ choice, I choose Vect over Baron anyway.

OrdoSean wrote:
Im actually in the camp that does believe that baron can reroll the tests no matter who he is with... and Ive never had anyone tell me other wise in tournaments or whatnot.

Tsilber wrote:

Anyway i guess we all agree however that a Baron needs to be in any deathstar DE unit weather Grots or Beast

And Im actually moving away from using baron at all. Partly because of the above argument and also over reliance on hit and run, and most of the time not needing it. I miss the grenades but so far it hasnt had a huge impact. He is ridiculously useful and helpful for his points cost, but I've been trying out some slightly more badass choices.

Also whenever Im in a restricted force org event... like a team event that only allows one HQ choice, I choose Vect over Baron anyway.

Oh man, thought we were gonna have epic Beast-star VS. Grot-star Grudge match Saturday at the tourney! hmmm i wonder what you gonna stick in that beast unit. If i were a betting man id say lelith, maybe a succy. We will see..

Haha we are still going to have the showdown... though I was kinda looking forward to playing your new demon stuff.

Its still a beast star without Baron.

Beaststar kind of needs Vect. Grotstar does not. You know I played your list (with tweaks) Sean and found that I was more comfortable with Grotstar. It is more forgiving when you play as badly as I do at times.

What about this for Wraithstar:
Baron
Farseer with guide
Warlock with Conceal
10 Wraithguard
... With a Wraithseer close behind.

That gives you a 4+ FNP against weapons that would normally get past the Stealth coversave, plus -1 to any coversaves means this unit becomes much more suited at countering enemy Deathstars.

As far as I see it, being a ranged unit actually gives it huge benefits, but needs to be used differently: while the other Deathstars are essentially brawlers who for the most part just slam forward, I see this unit more as something to chop the head off the scariest enemy unit out there. If you get tar-pitted, simply pull out and Scatter Laser then with your anti-infantry men while your Wraithstar marches on to neutralise the juicy targets...

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
What about this for Wraithstar:
Baron
Farseer with guide
Warlock with Conceal
10 Wraithguard
... With a Wraithseer close behind.

That gives you a 4+ FNP against weapons that would normally get past the Stealth coversave, plus -1 to any coversaves means this unit becomes much more suited at countering enemy Deathstars.

As far as I see it, being a ranged unit actually gives it huge benefits, but needs to be used differently: while the other Deathstars are essentially brawlers who for the most part just slam forward, I see this unit more as something to chop the head off the scariest enemy unit out there. If you get tar-pitted, simply pull out and Scatter Laser then with your anti-infantry men while your Wraithstar marches on to neutralise the juicy targets...

Just way too slow imo.

To me, it's down to Beast, Harlies or JetSeer due to their mobility.

And Helldrakes ruin a Wraithstars day anyway. I don't think it qualifies at all.

Regarding speed - 1) You don't need to be in close combat with the enemy - with a move you have an 18" threat bubble with cannons of doom

Regarding Helldrakes - that's where the Wraithseer comes into its own; granting a 4+ FNP means that to kill a Wraithguard needs a 4+ to wound, followed by a 4+ FNP. That's better than the Harlistar and as good as the fortuned Seer Council.

Put fortune on the Wraithguard as well you've got a unit with the following:

Toughness 6
3+ save/4+ cover save re-rollable
4+ FNP

I don't know of anything else that has that kind of durability against all types of weapons...

My Harliestar is better

Vect
Archon, Agoniser, Huskblade, Soultrap, Combat Drugs, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shadowfield
Farseer, Runes, Fortune
10 Harlequins, Kisses, 1 Shadowseer

Much more redundancy if 1 Shadowfield fails. It destroys virtually anything in assault, and the extra Shadowfield is epic.
Challenges are no problem with this build, and you can guard against torrent of fire from multiple angles.

BUT I believe Harliestar's will be RIP once the new Eldar book hits, because GW will almost certainly nerf\change fortune.

My take on the harliestar: instead of Eldrad being with the harlies, have him in a guardian squad so he can still cast fortune at a distance and maybe have an Avatar in there to make em all fearless in case the enemy tries to take out Eldards goup. (Idk about DE so you can fill in from there)

And for you folks running the Grostar, you NEED Lady Malys if you are serious. I wouldn't run it without her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GTKA666 wrote:
My take on the harliestar: instead of Eldrad being with the harlies, have him in a guardian squad so he can still cast fortune at a distance and maybe have an Avatar in there to make em all fearless in case the enemy tries to take out Eldards goup. (Idk about DE so you can fill in from there)

That won't work. Eldrad or the Farseer needs to be inside the Harliestar. And after many playtest games, the Farseer is the way to go. From a cost perspective and because he has fleet.

Well if wraithstar is slow so is the grotstar. And I run mine without Lady Malys ... I have enough points invested with Urien and the Baron. Works fine.

Now I've seen a few successful wraithstar lists at 1500 - 1850, I'm not sure what they running in the States but up North thit is common to see

Wraithstar w/ Fortune Seer and Baron (spiritseer conceal)
with
Archon , 6 Incubi in a Raider.

The troops are filled by a few KW squads in venoms and some guardians defenders w/scatterlasers.

Heavy is a mix of razorwings and ravagers.

At 1850 you can even fit an AGL in. So you have some flyer defense, decent against horde, some mobility and one of the toughest troop choices around. Harliestar troops are weak. The list falls almost entirely on the Harliestar and it has very weak flyer defense. Beast sytar is better but still little flyer defense. Both rely on getting into cc and ignoring flyers. Heldarkes hurt anybody as do manticores, Stromravens, vindicators et all. if you don't use cover properly and have no defense against them of course you fail t times. But these lists have been winning at tournaments so I don't discount them as quickly as some seem to. .

It's a little troop light but the wraithstar can control the center table quite well and with reserves coming in and plenty of gunboats it is not an easy list to defeat. Decent TAC list IMHO.

Whats the theory behind Lady Malys in a Grot star?

Also, eldar codex spells (conceal, fortune, ect.) dont work on dark eldar do they?

They do not. Fortune is on the eldar unit. It does work on the Baron though.

Not sure either. I would like to hear the your justification behind it. I know the Malys-star. Malys has her uses as a pre-game deployment changer, nullifier of offensive unit targeting psy powers and a great leadership of 10. The 4++ is helpful as are the plasma grenades but how often do Grots get the charge. So really she is there to stop force weapons (GK) and the new witchfires etc. I like her. I get she is protected by the Grots and the unit will be tougher to kill. But the Baron and Urien also add a lot of utility and the unit is still tough to kill. Urien can stay in a challenge all game, lol. He is great warlord. The Baron ... well helps deployment roll, stealth, hit and run. So Malys better? I would put her with beast pack before a grot squad ... now a seer or eldrad invisibility, vect for preferred enemy and fearless and malys for psychic defense with eldrad ... wow ... that would be near untouchable. Who needs Baron in it. Costs a bit more than the Baron though.