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So the candidates ....

Seer Council with Farseer and Baron
Harliestar with Vect, Karandras and Eldrad
Grotstar with Urien and Baron
Beastpack with Eldrad, Vect and Baron

Seer council in allied list can work well on bikes or on foot. It can be toned down to be the lest expensive of the options and hits like a ton of bricks

Harliestar lists are well known - they are tough as nails but they are also very expensive once you ahve aded in all the HQs.

Grotstar is not cheap and under the radar as it is the slowest of the options. But S7 Grots with T5/W3 and a lot of attacks are no joke. The abberation alone has seven attacks on the charge with scissorhands (furious charge and FNP). They can handle most anything.

The Beastpack has become famous. I've tested it and it is hard as nails to take down. The pack is not too expensive - it is the HQ characters that quickly start to add up.

Wraithstar is merging as the new contender with Eldard and Baron. Expensive as all get out and awful in cc but devastating when shooting 9 very short range though).



So let's discuss builds and see what the preferences are. It is understood that deathstars have inherent weaknesses. Any time you sink a lot of oints into one unit you need it to perform well on the table. Generally at 1850 they are a third of your points wrapped up as a package for your opponent to target. So what has been working?

Both beast packs and grot stars have won at tournaments. Harliestar had some early successes until people cottoned on. Of course, this an aissue with ant deathstar. When you have never seen one like it you can misplay against it. As it becomes better known, lists are prepared to take it on. So would you even consider playing a deathstar at all and if you did how would you build a list to protect it? They are all vulnerable to alpha strike ( why Vect is in a few of them). Farseer/Eldrad need to cast their powers for a few of these before they get targeted ( the exception is grot star which does not rely on fortune or divination). So what say you?

Wraith guard eldrad

WG+ eldrad is terrible. Get anything in melee and the whole unit is useless.

As of now, the best is almost certainly Beasts(5x masters, 8x razorwing, 1x clawed fend)+ Baron+2x Jetbike farseers for invis and doom. Gives you survivability, stupidly high killing power, decently cheap for a deathstar (~550), and fast. With correct positioning of ICs, this unit fears nothing.

It also

Baron is in the Wraithstar for hit and run. The squad is over 600 points though. So it is not the over if they end up in melee. They hit and run and shoot you to bits.

The beastpack also is exoensive once you have added three HQs to it - again over 600 points

My favorite is the Grotstar whcih runs around 450 points.

 felixcat wrote:


Beastpack with Eldrad, Vect and Baron


The Beastpack has become famous. I've tested it and it is hard as nails to take down. The pack is not too expensive - it is the HQ characters that quickly start to add up.

The beastpack is awesome. It is so cheap you can run a second pack to run up behind the first one. If the first pack takes too many wounds you shift the expensive characters to the reserve pack and you are good to go.

I've been fairly successful against the Grotstar and Harliestar, though the version of the Harliestar I played against was suboptimal in many respects. Of those two I think the Grotstar is definitely stronger/more all-comers, given that the counters to it (strength 10) are rare whereas the counters to the Harliestar (Ignores Cover and LoS sniping) are not that uncommon.

Overall I think Seer Councils are the best of the above options, though they all have some bad matchups and IMO will be less reliable than simply running a more balanced list.

How do you figure the beast pack is cheap?

Eldrad 210
Baron 105
Vect 240
Beast pack 240

That's cheap? That is 695 points.

With Grotstar
Urien 190
Baron 105
8 Uber Grotesques w/ upgrades 345

This is also expensive at 645 points.

There are no cheap deathstars really.

The grotstar can also take a phoenix lord for extra oomph. Albeit expensive, You gain fearless and another power body. Maugan ra for shooting, fuegan and karandras for extra cc power.

I actually wrote a blog post comparing them not too long ago. I personally run and love the Seer Council on bikes (both the article and my bat reps are on my blog if people are interested).

I think the Seer Council, while perhaps the most expensive, is the best. I'm currently running.

Farseer on bike, 4 cheapest powers, spirit stones
Farseer on bike, fortune, runes of warding
4 Warlocks on bike with Destructor
1 Warlock on bike with Enhance
1 Warlock on bike with Embolden
Baron

While the total cost is 755 points, I have never lost the entire unit. In addition, they can take on almost anything. I've started to take Embolden in case of a crazy warp storm table result and to save points. One thing that I've found--hit and run is absolutely essential.

Overall, the Council has speed (huge), versatility (can kill hordes with Destructor, tough MCs with tons of fleshbane attacks), and durability (re-rollable 2++). I didn't find as good of a balance with the other deathstars that I tried out.

To start, no one takes vect or eldrad with beast packs. They slow the whole unit down and are ineffective for their point cost. Two bike seers perform much better since you can go for invis with one and keep doom. That cuts the points down to ~550 like i said

Bike council runs the risks of not seeing invis, enemy having eldar, nid, or SW psychic defense, and are very mediocre in melee. Even a 3+ save MC is going to take multiple rounds of combat to take care of. Also prone to losing a farseer during the game, which makes the whole unit much less difficult to kill. Also, losing any of the warlocks loses a lot of the units power. Finally, DTW can be taken against destruction, meaning you can get a 4+ DTW with any level 1 psyker. Too many chances with this unit to put it at the top.

Do the math on nob bikers, TW cav with two TH, smiting DWK, or anything S8+ vs WG. Either barron or eldrad are going to be challenged away, giving you the choice to lose your needed IC's inv or just lose some of the WG. If either IC dies, that unit turns into a joke. You may be able to hit and run, but the unit is I4, so 1/3 of the time you fail. Also, the unit can be surrounded by horde armies to deny the hit and run, as long as the surrounding guys are not locked in the melee with the WG (nids do this really well). Finally, we are talking about >600 points in a unit with 12" range, 1 target per turn, no real melee ability to disorganized charge multiple units, or any ability to rapidly relocate them. No transport can hold them, and they are a good portion of your army when the eldar codex already suffers with keeping troops alive. The enemy can just play the objectives and win.

Every other deathstar here has melee ability allowing you to take on multiple targets at once. Also they are significantly faster except for grotesques, which are much cheaper.

 felixcat wrote:

How do you figure the beast pack is cheap?

Eldrad 210
Baron 105
Vect 240
Beast pack 240

That's cheap? That is 695 points.

With Grotstar
Urien 190
Baron 105
8 Uber Grotesques w/ upgrades 345

This is also expensive at 645 points.

There are no cheap deathstars really.

you can easily run

Eldrad 210
Baron 105
Vect 240
Beast pack-1 240
Beast pack-2 240
~ 935 points.

This greatly decreases the vunerability of the beast pack. If you lose a bunch of razorwing flocks in Beast pack 1 then you move your characters over to beastpack 2 and you havent lost any effectiveness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zephoid wrote:
To start, no one takes vect or eldrad with beast packs. They slow the whole unit down and are ineffective for their point cost. Two bike seers perform much better since you can go for invis with one and keep doom. That cuts the points down to ~550 like i said

perhaps you havent read the rules for 6th edition, but they DO NOT slow the pack down, they just require a conga line with a few useless beast masters. Vect's PE and fearless are all you careabout. Him munching Meq is a bonus but not what you take him for. Eldrad's ok in combat, but again, you take him for his psykic powers that he can cast from way back.

To start, no one takes vect or eldrad with beast packs. They slow the whole unit down and are ineffective for their point cost. Two bike seers perform much better since you can go for invis with one and keep doom. That cuts the points down to ~550 like i said

Chaining out solves this. It isn't amazing, but it's workable.

Bike council runs the risks of not seeing invis, enemy having eldar, nid, or SW psychic defense, and are very mediocre in melee. Even a 3+ save MC is going to take multiple rounds of combat to take care of. Also prone to losing a farseer during the game, which makes the whole unit much less difficult to kill. Also, losing any of the warlocks loses a lot of the units power. Finally, DTW can be taken against destruction, meaning you can get a 4+ DTW with any level 1 psyker. Too many chances with this unit to put it at the top.

I believe that with four rolls, a Farseer has something along the lines of an 80% chance of getting Invisibility. However, I have found that with the Baron, it isn't always necessary. You gain a 2++ re-rollable just through his presence.

Eldar psychic defense isn't bad if you take Runes of Witnessing, Embolden, or both (and you should have at least one). Space Wolf defense must be avoided, but I've been able to do so. Premeasuring helps alot.

I run 8 members in my Council (not including the Baron). On the charge, that's 24 attacks. If I hit enemies on 3's, then I'm averaging about 13 wounds, which means a 3+ save enemy takes about 4 wounds. If I hit on 4's, then I average about 10 wounds, which means about 3 wounds on 3+ save enemies. So, you kill the standard 4-5 wound, 3+ save MC in about two player turns. Coincidentally, this is exactly what you want to do.

Though I thought that you could, you actually cannot DTW against Destructors, as no psychic test is taken.

Problems debunked.

Do the math on nob bikers, TW cav with two TH, smiting DWK, or anything S8+ vs WG. Either barron or eldrad are going to be challenged away, giving you the choice to lose your needed IC's inv or just lose some of the WG. If either IC dies, that unit turns into a joke.

All members are still characters, which means I accept challenges with Warlocks. The same Warlocks with a re-rollable 3+/4++ (and often invisibility).

You may be able to hit and run, but the unit is I4, so 1/3 of the time you fail. Also, the unit can be surrounded by horde armies to deny the hit and run, as long as the surrounding guys are not locked in the melee with the WG (nids do this really well).

Uhh...the Baron is I6. For characteristic tests that apply to the unit, you use the highest value in the unit. So, you fail 16% of the time...

Finally, we are talking about >600 points in a unit with 12" range, 1 target per turn, no real melee ability to disorganized charge multiple units, or any ability to rapidly relocate them. No transport can hold them, and they are a good portion of your army when the eldar codex already suffers with keeping troops alive. The enemy can just play the objectives and win.

12" move which is not slowed by terrain, 2D6 fleeted charge that isn't slowed by terrain. With Hammer of Wraith. That is, after you flame people with Destructors.

You are right that they aren't unbeatable, but the Seer Council is very good.

Every other deathstar here has melee ability allowing you to take on multiple targets at once. Also they are significantly faster except for grotesques, which are much cheaper.

None of the others are faster than the Jet Council. Again, 12" move that isn't slowed by terrain. Fleet. 2d6 assault move. 36" turbo boost....yeah...

I don't mean to sound harsh here, but if you are going to bash something, have the rules straight for it. You made a number of incorrect points in your post, and thus, you don't have any idea of what the Council is capable of. Again, the unit isn't unbeatable, but it can be very effective.

I think the real weakness of Seer Councils is not Runes of Warding, which are mitigated by Runes of Witnessing, or Space Wolf psychic defenses, which can be avoided by good movement, but rather Grey Knight Stormravens. Mindstrike missiles can be devastating to a Council. I'll be interested to see if this sort of "psychic offense" persists in new books. Dæmons have some elements of it, albeit not particularly reliable ones.

The only thing I dislike about the council is the cost. It takes up too big a chunk out of my list. Tarpit the council with a cheap blob and then you suffer - of course Grots can be tar pitted too but they have more attacks in an eight man squad plus two characters then the Seer council and more wounds. They are indeed slow though.

The only thing I dislike about the council is the cost. It takes up too big a chunk out of my list. Tarpit the council with a cheap blob and then you suffer - of course Grots can be tar pitted too but they have more attacks in an eight man squad plus two characters then the Seer council and more wounds. They are indeed slow though.

I've found hit and run is a must. They are too much of a scalpel otherwise. With hit and run, they can put pressure on the enemy without fear of getting locked in combat with fearless goober units.

Ah yes ... the Baron ... I totally missed that. Haven't played against that particular unit. Do you commonly get any multi-assaults with it. You should be able to with that many bodies I imagine. I've done it with Grots occasionally and their charge range does not have fleet. That is where the beast pack excels. They often able to nullify two units on the charge. BTW, the Farseer has a 67% chance of rolling invisibility - at least that was what we calculated with Eldard. Math is in that thread.

I find the notion that you will be able to prevent H+R by surrounding either a seer council or a wraithguard unit completely rather amusing. I doubt very much if anyone will pull that off against an experienced player. In fact the results of the Crucible GT highlites how effective that unit can be.

Truly, i started the thread because DE/Eldar have been so well lately. Nids have become the bane ofNecrons so they have some bad match ups now. GK/IG have a tough time with Necrons. But DE/Eldar are very TAC.

Ah yes ... the Baron ... I totally missed that. Haven't played against that particular unit. Do you commonly get any multi-assaults with it. You should be able to with that many bodies I imagine. I've done it with Grots occasionally and their charge range does not have fleet. That is where the beast pack excels. They often able to nullify two units on the charge. BTW, the Farseer has a 67% chance of rolling invisibility - at least that was what we calculated with Eldard. Math is in that thread.

I will usually pull off multi-assaults if I feel there is benefit to do so. I don't necessarily expect to beat people down, but Seers can very easily sweep other units. I also love to use "Terrify" to take away fearless and sweep units that otherwise felt "safe." Seers rarely lose more than a model or two in CC, so winning combat resolution is easy.

I find the notion that you will be able to prevent H+R by surrounding either a seer council or a wraithguard unit completely rather amusing. I doubt very much if anyone will pull that off against an experienced player.

I haven't had this happen. I'm sure it could, but you just have to bite off what you can chew, so to speak.

Destructiors are a psychic power. by nature of psychic powers they can be dtw. There is no instance where a psychic test is required to dtw. It is stated as a psychic power. Also, it cannot overwatch via the faq for the same reason.

Sorry, i forgot to include that my 2nd paragraph was referring to the durability of wraithguard.

Seer councils are durable, but dont do damage. If you are taking all wytchblades (95% of people dont) then you are ineffective vs armor, especially transports since it takes 2 turns to kill the occupants if they can disembark. If you take spears you are ineffective at killing in melee since you average ~8 wounds, so 3 unsaved. Then we can go into dealing with opposing deathstars, which gets even more ugly when 2+ saves are thrown in.


I have denied hit and run via a tervigon's spawns. I also saw a nid player do that to beat a Eldar player who was using harlequins. rolled 11, placed them 6" away and ran them 6" to surround a harlequin squad that had just broke from a genestealer squad (this was 5th). Tervigon a gaunt squad, and another genestealer squad assaulted while hive guard and another gaunt squad blocked the other routes (without fnp gaunts were more of a liability in 5th so why would you assault with all the gaunt squads). Tbh, its not that hard since its a normal move that is restricted by the 1" rule. Bikes, however, ignore blocking units so they cannot be denied without a silly amount of work.

 zephoid wrote:
Destructiors are a psychic power. by nature of psychic powers they can be dtw. There is no instance where a psychic test is required to dtw. It is stated as a psychic power. Also, it cannot overwatch via the faq for the same reason.

Sorry, i forgot to include that my 2nd paragraph was referring to the durability of wraithguard.

Seer councils are durable, but dont do damage. If you are taking all wytchblades (95% of people dont) then you are ineffective vs armor, especially transports since it takes 2 turns to kill the occupants if they can disembark. If you take spears you are ineffective at killing in melee since you average ~8 wounds, so 3 unsaved. Then we can go into dealing with opposing deathstars, which gets even more ugly when 2+ saves are thrown in.


I have denied hit and run via a tervigon's spawns. I also saw a nid player do that to beat a Eldar player who was using harlequins. rolled 11, placed them 6" away and ran them 6" to surround a harlequin squad that had just broke from a genestealer squad (this was 5th). Tervigon a gaunt squad, and another genestealer squad assaulted while hive guard and another gaunt squad blocked the other routes (without fnp gaunts were more of a liability in 5th so why would you assault with all the gaunt squads). Tbh, its not that hard since its a normal move that is restricted by the 1" rule. Bikes, however, ignore blocking units so they cannot be denied without a silly amount of work.

I think you may have missed the part in the rulebook where it states : " If a psychic power is targetted on an enemy unit, and the psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved".

Clearly, Deny the Witch cannot be used on Destructor because you do not roll for a psychic test to use that power, it just automatically happens. And Deny the Witch does most certainly require the person casting the initial spell to pass a psychic test before you can try to deny the witch.

So I had thought this would be your uber Deathstar

- 950 -
* Farseer (747)
Doom; Fortune; Guide; singing spear; runes of warding; runes of witnessing; spirit stones; jetbike
* 10 Warlocks: 6 Destructor; Embolden; Enhance; 3 singing spear; jetbikes
* Farseer (203)
Doom; Eldritch Storm; Guide; Mind War; singing spear; runes of witnessing; spirit stones; jetbike

If you add Baron for another 105 that is 1055. Yours is cheaper but has less bodies. What are your load outs for the fareers? I see you have no singing spears at all. Is there a reason for that?

So we have a T4 unit ( a liitle weak here) but it has T4 and needs both fortune and invisibility. However with enhance you are hitting on 3s wounding on 2s - that is quite goos. Six destructors ( you use less) take care of anything you encounter, and they have a 4+rerollable save. And they are dead fast.

Now my Grot squad has more attacks than your Seer Council

* Urien Rakarth - 190
* Baron Sathonyx - 105
8 Uber Grotesques, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Scissorhands - 355

This is T5/Str7/W3/16 Grots with an abberation with 7 attacks alone. Add in the Grots and another 28 attacks on the charge. All rerolling pretty much. They have FNP as well and Hit and Run.

Just thought I would hightlight the differences.

As for surrounding the Grot squad with termagants ... of course anything is possible but I can go through a gant squad in one round of combat.

My personal Favourite is Fuegan + Fortuneseer + Harlequins, its tough enough to withstand plenty of fire, keeps fleet, hits at initiative and keeps hit and run.

Not sure why you'd use Karandras with Harlequins, Fuegan is tougher and hits first rather than last. Personally I like Karandras with anything with a Conceal Warlock for the Stealth stack (I know, I know, debatable that it works).

Sticking him in a giant Guardian mob with the Conceallock is fun, keep Karandras at the back, charge in, lose all the guardians first absorbing their attacks, Karandras piles in, swings his 7 attacks, either wins combat and runs them down or loses, stays because fearless, kills the rest of the crippled squad next round!

 zephoid wrote:
To start, no one takes vect or eldrad with beast packs. They slow the whole unit down and are ineffective for their point cost. Two bike seers perform much better since you can go for invis with one and keep doom. That cuts the points down to ~550 like i said

I always take vect and Eldrad with my beastpack...

Eldrad is almost as good as two psykers and only takes up one slot.

Vect is a monster and preferred enemy and fearless are really good buffs. In fact given the choice Ill take Vect over Baron to lead my beast pack.

Seer councils are durable, but dont do damage. If you are taking all wytchblades (95% of people dont) then you are ineffective vs armor, especially transports since it takes 2 turns to kill the occupants if they can disembark. If you take spears you are ineffective at killing in melee since you average ~8 wounds, so 3 unsaved. Then we can go into dealing with opposing deathstars, which gets even more ugly when 2+ saves are thrown in.

Taking Witchblades is the way to go imo. I don't have problems with transports, but I also see far less in tournies. However, I have no issue with multi-charging a few transports, killing them, and then weathering the fire from the occupants (who can't charge).

Also, you have to realize that you have support besides the Council. The loadout that I posted of 755 points is 40% of an 1850 list, and 38% of a 2k list. Which means, I have multiple MCs, Warriors, a Beastpack, and an Aegis to back me up. I haven't had major issues.

I have denied hit and run via a tervigon's spawns. I also saw a nid player do that to beat a Eldar player who was using harlequins. rolled 11, placed them 6" away and ran them 6" to surround a harlequin squad that had just broke from a genestealer squad (this was 5th). Tervigon a gaunt squad, and another genestealer squad assaulted while hive guard and another gaunt squad blocked the other routes (without fnp gaunts were more of a liability in 5th so why would you assault with all the gaunt squads). Tbh, its not that hard since its a normal move that is restricted by the 1" rule. Bikes, however, ignore blocking units so they cannot be denied without a silly amount of work.

Yup...you really can't deny the Jet Seer hit and run.

I think in general there is a misconception that because I pay 755 points, my unit needs to kill on the level of other deathstars such as Pallies and Nob Bikers. At the end of the day, the Seer Council is a different beast. It takes good movement and smart play. However, the unit can take on almost anything, is super fast, and near possibly the most durable unit in the game. I've never lost the entire unit in any game, and have taken on armies with psychic defense (Nids, Wolves, Eldar) and the big baddies of 6th like triple Drake and IG blob plus Wolves. The real weakness is having mediocre at best troops, but we can't all be Guard and MEQ players...

So the harliestar -

Shadowseer for stealth and shrouding ... so 2+ saves with 2+ rerolls from fortune ( if you do not take divination powers) is a 1 in 36 chance of getting a wound on them ... it also has what ... ten kisses. Then Vect and Fuegan and Eldard ... now it is fearless, prefered enemy and buffed with psychic powers.

* Eldard 210
* Fuegan 240
* Vect 205
* 10 Harlequins, Kisses, 1 Shadowseer - 250

So 905 points here. Acceptable I guess. Now Eldard lacks fleet so you might go with a regular farseer with ROw, Doom and Fortune instead ... although with the new rules for charging Eldard does need fleet.

* Eldard 210
* Fuegan 240
* Vect 205
* 10 Harlequins, Kisses, 1 Shadowseer - 250

So 905 points here. Acceptable I guess. Now Eldard lacks fleet so you might go with a regular farseer with ROw, Doom and Fortune instead ... although with the new rules for charging Eldard does need fleet.

The issue I had when I played it was the lack of speed. The Harliestar is far more reactionary than Seer Councils or Beastpacks are. I also worry about the viability of the unit due to Helldrakes. Eldar/DE struggle with Drakes to begin with. They can really hurt the Harlies.

 felixcat wrote:

* Urien Rakarth - 190
* Baron Sathonyx - 105
8 Uber Grotesques, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Scissorhands - 355

This is T5/Str7/W3/16 Grots with an abberation with 7 attacks alone. Add in the Grots and another 28 attacks on the charge. All rerolling pretty much. They have FNP as well and Hit and Run.

Grots dont get to reroll to hit or to wound. The abberation does, but not the grots. If you could get vect in there, or someone who had PE/hatred it would really add a lot of damage. Also these guys only have a 6+/5+ FNP and T5. You can eat through them with a lot of units.

 Exergy wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

* Urien Rakarth - 190
* Baron Sathonyx - 105
8 Uber Grotesques, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Scissorhands - 355

This is T5/Str7/W3/16 Grots with an abberation with 7 attacks alone. Add in the Grots and another 28 attacks on the charge. All rerolling pretty much. They have FNP as well and Hit and Run.

Grots dont get to reroll to hit or to wound. The abberation does, but not the grots. If you could get vect in there, or someone who had PE/hatred it would really add a lot of damage. Also these guys only have a 6+/5+ FNP and T5. You can eat through them with a lot of units.

I run my grotstar unit with Baron, Urien, Abberation with Flesh gauntlet, and then a eldar Farseer with prescience. remember the baron gives the hole unit stealth. So almost all the time you can have 4+ or better cover save. With FNP.. Also they may only move 6" but using the baron on the skyboard can buy you an extra 2" when setting yourself up for a charge. The unit is brutal. Hell, you can even throw a aegis down midfield if you really want to.

Yes I forgot to add in the 90 point farseer in the squad. So my squad actually costs a bit more.

I'm curious ... you have the option on the abberation for venom blade - pretty cheap, scissorhands more expensive but an extra attack or flesh guntlet -the most expensive. Why did you choose the guantlet?

Instant death Daemons and big bugs, multi wound characters and in most cases against other things, poison 2 rerolling. Poison 2 venom blade is kinda blah... i mean you are wounding most things on 2+ anyway. Scissorhand also a great option poison 3, but because of superior STR in most cases its re-roll-able 2's. poison with hi strength is just broken no matter how you look at it.

But ID to daemons and bugs with a flesh gauntlet really makes them think twice. Because they have to accept challenges and yeah they can smash you... but again you should really cover hop with them and be in cover a lot, daemons dont have assault grenades. ( I know the knew Skull Cannon throws a monkey wrench at this, but just dont fight them with the grotesque. deny the challenge if the GD comes in solo, and if its a multi charge from Daemons units, i probably would just sacrifice my farseer at that point) Because with a Grot HQ with ID, the Baron, Urien with an ID weapon, and grots.. you should win combat.. by alot)..

Tsilber wrote:
Instant death Daemons and big bugs, multi wound characters and in most cases against other things, poison 2 rerolling. Poison 2 venom blade is kinda blah... i mean you are wounding most things on 2+ anyway. Scissorhand also a great option poison 3, but because of superior STR in most cases its re-roll-able 2's. poison with hi strength is just broken no matter how you look at it.

But ID to daemons and bugs with a flesh gauntlet really makes them think twice. Because they have to accept challenges and yeah they can smash you... but again you should really cover hop with them and be in cover a lot, daemons dont have assault grenades. ( I know the knew Skull Cannon throws a monkey wrench at this, but just dont fight them with the grotesque. deny the challenge if the GD comes in solo, and if its a multi charge from Daemons units, i probably would just sacrifice my farseer at that point) Because with a Grot HQ with ID, the Baron, Urien with an ID weapon, and grots.. you should win combat.. by alot)..

yeah, in a small unit I like the venom blade for being cheap. Always 2+ rerolling is great and the extra attack. The scissorhand is 3+ and an extra attack but costs you another 10 points. I dont like it. The flesh gauntlets are a rerollable 4+ or better but then you can ID things. There are a lot of T5+ things that dont usually worry about ID and those will give pause. Also all these weapons are AP- so you might only get 1 wound through, need to make it count. It's 15 points more than the venom blade, when you are spending 800 you might as well.