What I saw from GW in a professional setting on 4/4/2013 (edited for clarity)

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**mikhaila**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Orktavius wrote:
How's privateer press's supply chain these days?

According to PPS_Simon, things are fine at their warehouse and the failing is on distributors.

That's funny. Privateer has always blamed distributors and retailers.

I personally talk with many distributors, and get information on when and how much they order from privateer. Many times they have had orders back as far as 6 months. That isn't a failure by distributors if they aren't filling those

**Azreal13**

BryllCream wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.

Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.

edit - having properly read the OP rather than glancing through the replies, it's actually not that bad. They failed at getting a computer set-up (boo evil corporate dickheads) and refused to give the journalists there a copy of the GW release schedule for the next couple of years. Hardly Enron.

You will excuse anything...

Please enlighten me as to how:

a)a group of sales people struggling to set up IT or

b)a refusal to give out release schedules to journalists

is just cause to dislike GW?

What you've missed is the sheer lack of professionalism. It doesn't matter that they're salespeople, what matters is that they utterly failed to prepare/arrive in time to solve those problems. It matters, as previously mentioned, that, as salespeople, they appear to have spectacularly failed to do what they are employed to do above all else. It also matters that while they may not have had the authority to discuss release schedules, everyone else from the major companies was, and so their own relationship is tarnished in comparison. It also matters that all the other companies appear to respect the retailers enough, and understand the importance of good relations, to spend time in a more informal setting demonstrating their product, whereas GW's sheer arrogance or incompetence in that regard was perfectly illustrated by that picture.

You criticise others for being too black and white, but appear unable to see the wider implications of these actions yourself.

**Kilkrazy**

If you want to demo a videogame that is in alpha or beta, you need a video in case your build doesn't work.

**mikhaila**

My veiwpoint is this:

Brendan Bell was put in an impossible situation. Literally no win. I've known him for a good number of years and he is both reasonable,and wants to give retailers the information we need.

However, current GW policies won't let him.

Hell, current GW policies mean that he probably hasn't even been told!

The questions we retailers want answered, he can't. I don't think anyone in GW US trade sales is happy with the state of things. They can't say that of course, unless they want to be looking for a new job.

On top of that, he got stuck in the middle of the Tau debacle, which US trade sales has little or no control over. GW UK is simply not good at forecasting numbers. They look too much at past numbers, with little qualitative analysis or intuition. Very much the problem of living in an Ivory Tower. They try to interpolate points on a line, and project future numbers, using data that may not be correct. They certainly don't look at models for the game the way gamers do. We look at a new codex and can see the "must have 3 units" and the "why the hell would anyone ever take these" aspects of the models, based on the rules. The Ivory Tower boys base sales projections on past models with different rules. Then get scared of making too much.

**spaceelf**

BryllCream wrote:
ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.

Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.

edit - having properly read the OP rather than glancing through the replies, it's actually not that bad. They failed at getting a computer set-up (boo evil corporate dickheads) and refused to give the journalists there a copy of the GW release schedule for the next couple of years. Hardly Enron.

I do not know what kind of proper read you had, but one of the things that I got from the OP was that business owners were concerned that GW would not deliver products to them on release day, while those products would be available at GW shops and website. Selling stuff when it is first released is a big deal. Lots of store owners are down on the KickStarter and Wyrd for selling stuff to consumers before it is available at shops. I am sure that they will be down on GW if they continue to pull this kind of stuff. GW needs to address this issue head on. Instead, the OP reports that the sales guy gave some kind of company line about supply problems.

**timetowaste85**

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
The recent news and trends are starting to give me a uneasy feeling for GW, one I have never really experienced in the many years I have enjoyed this hobby.

Downsizing retail outlets.

reducing FLGS access to products.

Restrictions to non GW internet sales.

Shutting down of production sites.

Lack of consumer interaction.

A Ambivalent attitude to sales shows and demos.

Supply problems and shortages.

Canceling gamesdays in many countries.

even now a accelerated release schedule, but with no preview or glimpse at what is really coming from them.

And the latest release the Tau codex, as much as I looked forward to it, on the face of it there are not many new models, and some that have been waiting for a very long time, (farsight model for example, was shown many years ago, and explained away as sculptors demo model).

Its just all starting to point to a grim picture of a company that's trying very hard to make a bottom line that it knows it will not make, just kinda going through the motions.

I hope I am completely and totally wrong on my feelings to these events.

I grew up with GW, and I want to grow old with it too.

I just think I am starting to hear the fat lady singing...

If my sources are correct, that sinking feeling is well earned. That's all I feel I can safely say, for my source's sake. Take or leave it (this to the general public, not to you in particular).

**notprop**

filbert wrote:
I mean ultimately, it is this rep's job to sell GW to FLGS and the bottom line is he is doing a spectacularly bad job at it. Whether that is down to him or because of corporate failings, is open to interpretation but it is a very pertinent point that there seems to be a certain level of discontent amongst independent retailers and GW for whatever reason are failing to address that.

All good points but something strikes me. Inspite all of these failings and the bad impression given to the OP he still walked away having orders placed with them and presumably for the future as well. I would also imagine many (most?) of the other FLGs in attendance were the same.

What motivation do they have to improve (assuming this is not a rare performance) if the punters will by whatever is put forward. Lets face it how often do GW release something out of the ordinary; So what is there to push in a market like that?

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

mikhaila wrote:
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Orktavius wrote:
How's privateer press's supply chain these days?

According to PPS_Simon, things are fine at their warehouse and the failing is on distributors.

That's funny. Privateer has always blamed distributors and retailers.

I personally talk with many distributors, and get information on when and how much they order from privateer. Many times they have had orders back as far as 6 months. That isn't a failure by distributors if they aren't filling those

Historically they've been 6 months back or currently?

**Grot 6**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I am hoping that GW has a major collapse, kinda like the crusty old man who has a heart attack and sees the errors of his ways. Being protective of your brand and product is one thing, but it seems more and more that GW is getting drunk on its own power.

Who are you and what have you done with SoloFalcon?

Give it long enough, and even the most ardent supporters resolve will begin to crack.

Don't get my words twisted. I like GW and their games, but to have made a showing like that at a distributors meeting is pretty shameful. They need to get their act straight before the collapse is permanent.

The road to heresy is taken a step at a time....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mikhaila wrote:
My veiwpoint is this:

Brendan Bell was put in an impossible situation. Literally no win. I've known him for a good number of years and he is both reasonable,and wants to give retailers the information we need.

However, current GW policies won't let him.

Hell, current GW policies mean that he probably hasn't even been told!

The questions we retailers want answered, he can't. I don't think anyone in GW US trade sales is happy with the state of things. They can't say that of course, unless they want to be looking for a new job.

On top of that, he got stuck in the middle of the Tau debacle, which US trade sales has little or no control over. GW UK is simply not good at forecasting numbers. They look too much at past numbers, with little qualitative analysis or intuition. Very much the problem of living in an Ivory Tower. They try to interpolate points on a line, and project future numbers, using data that may not be correct. They certainly don't look at models for the game the way gamers do. We look at a new codex and can see the "must have 3 units" and the "why the hell would anyone ever take these" aspects of the models, based on the rules. The Ivory Tower boys base sales projections on past models with different rules. Then get scared of making too much.

Who is honestly making the decisions here?

Or is it a case of general "No one talks about fight club", because everyone is running on the assumption train that everything is fine, even if the walls are falling down around them?

**puma713**

notprop wrote:
filbert wrote:
I mean ultimately, it is this rep's job to sell GW to FLGS and the bottom line is he is doing a spectacularly bad job at it. Whether that is down to him or because of corporate failings, is open to interpretation but it is a very pertinent point that there seems to be a certain level of discontent amongst independent retailers and GW for whatever reason are failing to address that.

All good points but something strikes me. Inspite all of these failings and the bad impression given to the OP he still walked away having orders placed with them and presumably for the future as well. I would also imagine many (most?) of the other FLGs in attendance were the same.

What motivation do they have to improve (assuming this is not a rare performance) if the punters will by whatever is put forward. Lets face it how often do GW release something out of the ordinary; So what is there to push in a market like that?

Excellent point, and one I was actually coming in here to make as well. If this showing by GW had been done by a new company with a new product line - or not even new, just obscure - how would the presentation have been taken? Would that company have sold effectively to its market? No - so why does GW? And if everyone walked out of the presentation and made their orders anyway, what motivation does GW have to change?

If a new soda brand came in and said, "Hey guys, we are making some drinks, but we can't really tell you about them. And I don't have one for you to taste, but they're going to be great." And then their table was empty of samples - how many of you retailers would fill your coolers with their product?

**silent25**

Saldiven wrote:

snip

That is an angle I hadn't thought about. While I felt some of the current policies definitely seemed short term profit, I always assumed it was to cover the disappointment of the Hobbit movie. That is why I thought all the talk of "Kirby padding his retirement" was silly. Trying to maximize profit and returns a few years down the line and then jump ship is open to too many variables. Selling the company out though, that has a fixed price and you can take your money and run. Let the buyer work out the house of cards that had been set up.

This just reminds me of WotC prior to their buyout by Hasbro. It was the peak of the Pokemon craze. No local gaming store could get any boxes of the card game. The WotC store though had crates of them and was selling them like hotcakes. They literally had a wall of boxes. Perception was it was meant to make the store appear more profitable and enable WotC to ask for a higher price. I don't think any of the WotC stores lasted past the second year of the Hasbro ownership.

Back to the OP, reading his story, all I could think was the GW rep was thrown to the wolves with nothing to protect himself with. Seen that first hand enough times.

**Harriticus**

GW in a real professional setting is sad. It's like a socially awkward kid that comes out of his basement and goes to a party, only to cling to the wall. It becomes clear GW has no idea what it's doing.

**Azreal13**

mikhaila wrote:
My veiwpoint is this:

Brendan Bell was put in an impossible situation. Literally no win. I've known him for a good number of years and he is both reasonable,and wants to give retailers the information we need.

However, current GW policies won't let him.

Hell, current GW policies mean that he probably hasn't even been told!

The questions we retailers want answered, he can't. I don't think anyone in GW US trade sales is happy with the state of things. They can't say that of course, unless they want to be looking for a new job.

On top of that, he got stuck in the middle of the Tau debacle, which US trade sales has little or no control over. GW UK is simply not good at forecasting numbers. They look too much at past numbers, with little qualitative analysis or intuition. Very much the problem of living in an Ivory Tower. They try to interpolate points on a line, and project future numbers, using data that may not be correct. They certainly don't look at models for the game the way gamers do. We look at a new codex and can see the "must have 3 units" and the "why the hell would anyone ever take these" aspects of the models, based on the rules. The Ivory Tower boys base sales projections on past models with different rules. Then get scared of making too much.

If the culture has become so deeply ingrained that the head of sales in one of their largest territories cannot turn around to HQ and tell them that their policies aren't working, then he's either utterly incompetent (which, by the sounds of your post, he isn't ) or things are so royally fethed at GW that there isn't really any hope.

**oni**

I think some might be jumping to conclusions here. This show is an isolated incident.

There undeniably seems to be a breakdown in communications within GW, but this can easily be corrected.

The shutdown of production in Memphis is a little concerning, but doesn't really surprise me. I specculate that it's probably (not necessarily the reason) for the better in terms of consistent quality control, especially for Finecast.

**mikhaila**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Orktavius wrote:
How's privateer press's supply chain these days?

According to PPS_Simon, things are fine at their warehouse and the failing is on distributors.

That's funny. Privateer has always blamed distributors and retailers.

I personally talk with many distributors, and get information on when and how much they order from privateer. Many times they have had orders back as far as 6 months. That isn't a failure by distributors if they aren't filling those

Historically they've been 6 months back or currently?

Happens from time to time. Last I herd, they had taken a portion of their line and decided those were core products that would be in stock, with other items made as they got time in the schedule. So most of the stuff you want should be in print, and quite a few codes might go out of production and sell out for several weeks at a time. From what i heard, they were mostly successful with this, filling most orders on those core products, but not all. I can see it on my end from which products i can find from various distributors, and which ones I just can get in for a couple of months.

Prior to this was when they were months behind. Some models we didnt' see for 6 months, some for just a month. Distributors would have several shipments in the pipeline, and placing more each month. I kept my stores 80% stocked on the line by going through 5 or 6 distributors and re-ordering whatever they had pretty heavily, since we didn't know when we'd get it back.

Much, much better at this point. But its cyclical, and Privateer has had many cycles where getting product was a problem.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

azreal13 wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
My veiwpoint is this:

Brendan Bell was put in an impossible situation. Literally no win. I've known him for a good number of years and he is both reasonable,and wants to give retailers the information we need.

However, current GW policies won't let him.

Hell, current GW policies mean that he probably hasn't even been told!

The questions we retailers want answered, he can't. I don't think anyone in GW US trade sales is happy with the state of things. They can't say that of course, unless they want to be looking for a new job.

On top of that, he got stuck in the middle of the Tau debacle, which US trade sales has little or no control over. GW UK is simply not good at forecasting numbers. They look too much at past numbers, with little qualitative analysis or intuition. Very much the problem of living in an Ivory Tower. They try to interpolate points on a line, and project future numbers, using data that may not be correct. They certainly don't look at models for the game the way gamers do. We look at a new codex and can see the "must have 3 units" and the "why the hell would anyone ever take these" aspects of the models, based on the rules. The Ivory Tower boys base sales projections on past models with different rules. Then get scared of making too much.

If the culture has become so deeply ingrained that the head of sales in one of their largest territories cannot turn around to HQ and tell them that their policies aren't working, then he's either utterly incompetent (which, by the sounds of your post, he isn't ) or things are so royally fethed at GW that there isn't really any hope.

Guess why people like Chris Woodward and Ed Spettigue aren't at GW anymore? And many, many other old timers. I know Chris for one was arguing heavily against some of the policies and for the US retailer. There's always hope, and GW has always been a cyclical company. That said, I've never before in 20 years of dealing direct with them felt I had less of a voice, or received less information and support from them. It has absolutely affected my ability to sell their products.

**Vulcan**

M4cr0Dutch wrote:
Spacemarine paintball. Really

This thread literally makes me feel ill. I can remember when FASA went down and it was a very hurtful experience. I wouldn't wish that on any gaming community, but at the same time, GW needs to wake up to itself.

But when FASA went down a better company took over the product, one that learned from FASA's mistakes. Here's hoping the same thing happens to GW.

**PhantomViper**

oni wrote:

The shutdown of production in Memphis is a little concerning, but doesn't really surprise me. I specculate that it's probably (not necessarily the reason) for the better in terms of consistent quality control, especially for Finecast.

GAMES WORKSHOP wrote:
The most important of these changes is that we will be shutting down our US production facility. This is great news

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Pardon my french, but wouldn't this be a great missed opportunity to demo the new Hobbit game that GW is apparently having trouble selling to people?

**Swan-of-War**

It's a display of GW's new Ninja Chapter Space Marines

**rigeld2**

He's a sales guy. Sales guys give Powerpoints all the time. It's one of the easiest tasks to accomplish like - ever. Unless there were technical difficulties with the venue, it's on them.

**Warboss Gubbinz**

I think the company you are thinking of is TSR, not FASA

**Shotgun**

I thought it was a ltd ed Bilbo with the Ring.

**Warboss Gubbinz**

Some back story of the fall of TSR posted by a "guest" over at the simplygaming forums.

With Wizards of the Coast growing at an explosive rate and beginning to nip at its heels, Williams and TSR began to squeeze the life out of the very market that had supported it. Rather than attempt to grow the marketplace and win in competition, Williams instead tried to banish everybody else from what she apparently viewed as her private domain. Under her management the company began to ruthlessly enforce its own copyrights along with a few it didn't even have (such as a claim that nobody else could use the word "dragon").

It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites. The company even tried to prevent D&D fans from discussing the game in chat rooms and on message boards, earning the derisive nickname: "They Sue Regularly."

The company was hostile to its fans, business partners, and even former associates that didn't have much clout with the company. TSR became infamous for micromanaging its licensing partners, with draconian licensing managers that dictated everything that a licensor could do, from the color of a box to exactly which piece of licensed D&D artwork the licensee would be forced to use. Even Gary Gygax himself wasn't immune. When Gygax created a new RPG system with Game Designer's Workshop called Dangerous Journeys, TSR sued him for copyright infringement. The case was eventually settled when TSR agreed to purchase all rights to the game for a considerable sum of money -- a pyrrhic victory for TSR, as the case cost the company far more than it could afford.

The parallels are really eye opening.

Here's a link to the full story: Link

**Swan-of-War**

Wow, that is scary WL Gubbinz.

As a side note - most licensors are very strict as to how their licenses / artwork can be used and most ideas need to go through a long list of approvals / sign-offs. What might seem as draconian to a newcomer is probably just industry standard.

**Harriticus**

rigeld2 wrote:
He's a sales guy. Sales guys give Powerpoints all the time. It's one of the easiest tasks to accomplish like - ever. Unless there were technical difficulties with the venue, it's on them.

But GW has convinced him that these new-fangled computers are just a passing fad!

**BryllCream**

Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"? IT problems happen. Windows ME crashed when it was being premiered to journalists for instance, and they're the biggest software company in the world.

**rigeld2**

Yes, IT problems happen.
If Windows crashes, reboot it. 5 minutes of downtime.
But the presentation should've been up and ready prior to the event even happening. All that should've happened is the sales guy plugging the projector into his laptop and boom.

**Howard A Treesong**

It's not just the poor presentation though, it's that the decided not to take part in the evening session for demonstrating games/products in the evening. You can't blame that on a bad laptop, they just left the table empty.

Although thinking about it, as it came up in conversation this weekend, years ago when GW were publishing novels with Boxtree they were to attend a book even but none of the stock arrived until Sunday night and with no means to return all of it they had to give a lot away. Although it's not the fault of those at the event, they are the ones that look a bit silly. Nice to see that GW hasn't changed in 20 years.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

BryllCream wrote:
Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"? IT problems happen. Windows ME crashed when it was being premiered to journalists for instance, and they're the biggest software company in the world.

You can excuse anything, so how about this. What excuses GW from participating in the demo/discussion after the presentation? What excuses the empty table?

**sourclams**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:What excuses the empty table?

Maybe he and Assistant #1 left to whittle new Tau models out of blocks of wood, JUST FOR THE INDY RETAILERS.

**NAVARRO**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"? IT problems happen. Windows ME crashed when it was being premiered to journalists for instance, and they're the biggest software company in the world.

You can excuse anything, so how about this. What excuses GW from participating in the demo/discussion after the presentation? What excuses the empty table?

They all were outside playing paintball spacemarinez!