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Do we have any numbers in the growth of Watmahordes, Infinity, FoW, etc down under?

Well if I'm ever planning a trip to Australia I'm jamming as much product in my suit cases as I can fit. Just so I can give you guys some hook ups to spit the evil empire.

 d-usa wrote:
Do we have any numbers in the growth of Watmahordes, Infinity, FoW, etc down under?

Not sure. I dunno which of those are publicly traded companies and would have their data available in public disclosures. I'm pretty sure PP is a private company, so doesn't have to disclose their sales/revenue information.

I would be curious to see numbers for WM/H in aus, it has effectively killed GW here now :0 haven't seen a game of 40k in 2 months now.
GW doing nothing for our shops and even they don't seem to have much enthusiasm for the product.

All of those are private companies if I'm remembering right.

 wowsmash wrote:
Well if I'm ever planning a trip to Australia I'm jamming as much product in my suit cases as I can fit. Just so I can give you guys some hook ups to spit the evil empire.

A more contemporary version of taking Blue Jeans to Russia!

(I had a friend in the 80's who financed a trip to Russia mostly by packing tons of jeans and selling the ones he was wearing at the end of the day.. )

Eww.. but true!

-Porkuslime

Did the imposition of the ROW embargo lead to a recovery in Asia-Pacific sales figures? It was put in place from 1 June 2011 so I'd expect any impact to be seen by now.

Did the financials reflect this?

 PLC wrote:
Did the imposition of the ROW embargo lead to a recovery in Asia-Pacific sales figures? It was put in place from 1 June 2011 so I'd expect any impact to be seen by now.

Did the financials reflect this?

It is hard to gauge the actual impact of the embargo without getting deep into the weeds of speculation.

In simple numbers, the Australian segment did see a 7% increase during FY2012. North America saw an 11% increase though with no embargo in place. Asia saw a 49% increase. Europe grew by 1% and the UK by 2%

How much of that was due to the annual price increase as opposed to actual real sales? How much of the sales from Europe to Australia switched to North America to Australia? No doubt a lot of smaller orders were processed in country. Shipping costs from North America (especially the US) to Australia are much higher than they are from the UK to Australia - so each order would need to be higher in order to see a cost benefit. The further out you get from the event - the more information you can use in order to determine the larger impact. They may have had a slight uptick in local sales at the expense of a larger downturn in the player base which will impact the long term sales outlook (which anecdotally seems to be the case so far).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.

This argument is repeated again and again and again (not just for Australia, but for GW in general). Games workshop sales have stagnated and even dropped. Games workshop is losing market share.

People aren't "just buying it anyway". They are moving away from GW. When Australians decided to show they aren't willing to pay those prices and started buying internationally, they didn't aren't going to adjust the prices, they are going to lock down international sales.

You can't have your pie and eat it too, you can't say GW is only doing it because Australians (or any other market) are continuing to buy it and ignore the facts that GW has been stagnant for several years in an otherwise growing market and that Australians HAVE been trying to buy at lower prices overseas.

This is why there's the widely held belief that GW are trying to prop up short term numbers at the expense of the community and thus long term numbers.

Games Workshop thinks that those sales are going to Internet retailers in other parts of the world and that if it can shut those down or prevent them from selling to Australians, the sales will come back. Hence they are imposing a harsher regime instead of lowering prices. I personally think they're wrong, but I suppose we'll see soon enough...

The PC not working is really silly. I do lots and lots of presentations and you always bring spares of everything. If someone doesn't work you pull out a backup, especially when its important.

GW is doing very little for the consumer, i am hoping for a total collapse and buy out by an organization that wants to rebuild the image, not destroy the company.

IMO what is going to happen is that something like PP and other miniature dealer will band together, buy out GW, and crush it. Which is sad because I still like GW's none resin minatures and also the basic gameplay better than anything else.

NickF509 wrote:

IMO what is going to happen is that something like PP and other miniature dealer will band together, buy out GW, and crush it.

So you are hypothesizing that a group of people are going to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in the GW brand and then destroy the brand and their investment? Doesnt that sound a little or a whole lot crazy to you when you stop and think about it for 10 seconds?

 Kingsley wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.

This argument is repeated again and again and again (not just for Australia, but for GW in general). Games workshop sales have stagnated and even dropped. Games workshop is losing market share.

People aren't "just buying it anyway". They are moving away from GW. When Australians decided to show they aren't willing to pay those prices and started buying internationally, they didn't aren't going to adjust the prices, they are going to lock down international sales.

You can't have your pie and eat it too, you can't say GW is only doing it because Australians (or any other market) are continuing to buy it and ignore the facts that GW has been stagnant for several years in an otherwise growing market and that Australians HAVE been trying to buy at lower prices overseas.

This is why there's the widely held belief that GW are trying to prop up short term numbers at the expense of the community and thus long term numbers.

Games Workshop thinks that those sales are going to Internet retailers in other parts of the world and that if it can shut those down or prevent them from selling to Australians, the sales will come back. Hence they are imposing a harsher regime instead of lowering prices. I personally think they're wrong, but I suppose we'll see soon enough...

Agreed, the general consensus here is that GW will do a "Canada" here in their next move. The only time i've been into a GW store in recent years is to window shop, and even that has become very rare as the local GW staffers have an obnoxious attitude (coupled with poor sales tactics). I've honestly never seen the stores so barren, or so many FLGS drop the GW product (or limit the stock) so much as the last two years here down under.

A lot of us still have contacts in the US who are able to give us decent discounts - i'm talking anywhere between 25% to 31.5% off the USD RRP - which has filled any needs when it comes to purchasing new products rather than second hand, but generally alot of us wait for the products needed to hit the second hand market. I've still got Wraithguard I bought for between $3 and $5 USD each in bulk (given they were going for $25 AUD here at the time, just a bit of a discount) - but this is an extreme example of what can be saved whilst denying GW any new product sales.

Fortunately on a personal note, I got in at the right time and did a few bulk purchases and as a result really only need one or two items that I can happily wait for when they are released. I'm just saddened at seeing so many Aussies drop 40k when most of my childhood was filled with great memories of it. The group that still exist in my home town are very hardened veterans (two of currently ranking in the top 15 here in Aus) and as such still follow 40k by mostly participating in tournaments, yet do most of their purchases though second hand channels.

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
All of those are private companies if I'm remembering right.

In the UK, a limited liability (incorporated in American speak?) company must publish its accounts publicly, albeit not in as much detail as a PLC.

Not sure what the state of play would be in other countries.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 PLC wrote:
Did the imposition of the ROW embargo lead to a recovery in Asia-Pacific sales figures? It was put in place from 1 June 2011 so I'd expect any impact to be seen by now.

Did the financials reflect this?

It is hard to gauge the actual impact of the embargo without getting deep into the weeds of speculation.

In simple numbers, the Australian segment did see a 7% increase during FY2012. North America saw an 11% increase though with no embargo in place. Asia saw a 49% increase. Europe grew by 1% and the UK

My purchasing behaviour reflects what you stated - shift from UK (Maelstrom /Wayland) to the US (reseller of unpacked product) and eBay and selected shops (Citadel Ultimate Paint Set). Overall my GW purchasing - typically USD 2000 per annum - fell by about 25%. However more than replaced by FW (mainly Heresy) due to cheaper than local GW.

Local purchases fell to almost nil. Previously I'd spend money once a month at local GW but now nothing. Even Army Book and codex purchases have been replaced by iBook which are 50% cheaper.

So in my case GW has shifted sales from UK to US - and reduced local spend

Local GW does nothing for community - but given I don't spend thre I don't expect them to do do anything from an altruistic pov.

I ran NZ's largest 40k event for the past five years taking over from GW's GT. Also run 5-6 WHFB events including Teams Champs and Masters for 40k and Fantasy.

The local manager is openly hostile to clubs refusing to display posters for the local club and tournaments. In his words "Every time I send someone I lose a customer".

I guess my point is I am worried that long term GW isn't concerned with the health of their franchise but driven by the next period's financials. That certainly is how it appears the message is being delivered to the coal face

 Morachi wrote:


Agreed, the general consensus here is that GW will do a "Canada" here in their next move. The only time i've been into a GW store in recent years is to window shop, and even that has become very rare as the local GW staffers have an obnoxious attitude (coupled with poor sales tactics).

Blimey, tell me about it! As a salesman of some 12 years experience in an industry which consists of many more considered purchases than toy soldiers, the sheer ineptitude and unsophistication of their technique is barely a step above smacking customers in the face with a box before grunting "New. Shiny. You buy now!"

 azreal13 wrote:

 Morachi wrote:


Agreed, the general consensus here is that GW will do a "Canada" here in their next move. The only time i've been into a GW store in recent years is to window shop, and even that has become very rare as the local GW staffers have an obnoxious attitude (coupled with poor sales tactics).

Blimey, tell me about it! As a salesman of some 12 years experience in an industry which consists of many more considered purchases than toy soldiers, the sheer ineptitude and unsophistication of their technique is barely a step above smacking customers in the face with a box before grunting "New. Shiny. You buy now!"

That gave me a laugh, completely agree - I understand they are sales folk, but there are ways to do it. Casually talking to the customer is one thing, bombarding them with "Have you seen this? Have you got a WD subscription? Why not? How about you take on out now?" which gets the all too common response from me "Sorry its not relevant to me anymore", typically retorted with "Oh but all the painting tutorials!"... "I have carpal tunnel - I outsource my painting"... Honestly, if I wanted only pretty pictures, i'd just jump on coolminiornot...

And my god, the looks you get when you mention your army has custom conversions that DON'T include GW kitbashed goods. It's like you told a devout Catholic that Satan makes a killer potato salad at your monthly dinner parties.

 d-usa wrote:
Do we have any numbers in the growth of Watmahordes, Infinity, FoW, etc down under?

we need them to sue an Australian bitz maker so they can release sales figures in the court case

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Do we have any numbers in the growth of Watmahordes, Infinity, FoW, etc down under?

we need them to sue an Australian bitz maker so they can release sales figures in the court case

Wanna start up a bits company down here to fulfill that requirement

...Just make sure you have a financial backer like Apple... just for the crapping of bricks.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
All of those are private companies if I'm remembering right.

In the UK, a limited liability (incorporated in American speak?) company must publish its accounts publicly, albeit not in as much detail as a PLC.

Not sure what the state of play would be in other countries.

Unfortunately I am not sure what their publishing requirements are.

JWhex wrote:


Your ability to shop online has not been taken away. I bet you $1000 dollars that their is a teenager living nearby you that can help you find the GW website and ebay where you can buy all this stuff from your house while wearing your fluffy slippers.

Please show me the shopping cart on thewarstore or miniature mart where I can click and buy the product without hassle. GW store is overpriced as is ebay.

So I take you up if you can find it on either of those two websites that have given me great service and product, unlike the two crappy sites you listed. Remeber its add it to the cart and buy. Not download a list and call.

My ability to shop where I want and what I want is been reduced. And if I lived in Australia, its been reduced more.

I enjoyed this service too but I do not have the childish notion that a company should continue a service that was costing them money instead of making money for them. I surely wish that I could call the Chevrolet dealer and get parts for a 1957 Chevy but I have no expectation for them to fullfill that request. In any event their are other manufacturers that sell their own custom made bits and third party resellers that sell GW bits. You are whining and crying over milk that has not even been spilled.

Funny how wanting to buy a product as one has for over decade is a "childish notion". I am a consumer and customer, they have removed a great service THEY have championed for over a decade. Its not childish at all. They claim it lost them money, yet I bought more kits when I could convert them to taste. I buy no kits now as I'm not interested in buying kits for just parts. Other manufacturers, while great, dont give me everything I desire in bits, there are several that are just not having much for said armies at all.

Further still, someone is forgetting that GW is activing trying to SUE into oblivion, one of the bit sellers. So no perhaps they wont be around.

I'm neither whining nor crying, unlike the childish antics YOU are acting in. As a comsumer, I am stating things I would want in a company, like and enjoyed. If Apple or SOny or Microsoft decideds to move in directions I dont like, they too no longer get my money either. You can either provide, as a company, things I wish and I will give you money, OR you can do as you wish in ther other direction and folsk wont give you their money- and given their information, less people are buying.

Some of you people remind me of a District Attorney that just piles on a hundred trivial or irrelevant duplicate charges against a defendant. Try sticking to issues that matter like quality control, pricing and sloppy rule writing. Just piling on all these silly and trivial complaints makes your case against GW look weaker not stronger.

And you remind me of the drunken football fan that will defend their team even when they go 0-16 as the best team ever. Try sticking to facts rather then making up things in a fanboy defense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:


In simple numbers, the Australian segment did see a 7% increase during FY2012. North America saw an 11% increase though with no embargo in place. Asia saw a 49% increase. Europe grew by 1% and the UK by 2%

How much of that was due to the annual price increase as opposed to actual real sales? How much of the sales from Europe to Australia switched to North America to Australia? No doubt a lot of smaller orders were processed in country. Shipping costs from North America (especially the US) to Australia are much higher than they are from the UK to Australia - so each order would need to be higher in order to see a cost benefit. The further out you get from the event - the more information you can use in order to determine the larger impact. They may have had a slight uptick in local sales at the expense of a larger downturn in the player base which will impact the long term sales outlook (which anecdotally seems to be the case so far).

Its not simple numbers however. You can look at revenue. You need to look at actual unit sales, which dont seem to increase.

JWhex wrote:

NickF509 wrote:

IMO what is going to happen is that something like PP and other miniature dealer will band together, buy out GW, and crush it.

So you are hypothesizing that a group of people are going to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in the GW brand and then destroy the brand and their investment? Doesnt that sound a little or a whole lot crazy to you when you stop and think about it for 10 seconds?

Well in the Technology branche it is not so uncommon, to be bought up by the competitor ransacked for all the technical knowledge and then the company is dismantled.

I wonder with all the talk of the Prices of GW in Australlia, how expensive are other tabletop games down under, are they only slightly more expensive, or more?

Yeah only slightly more expensive, it's not too terrible in most cases.

Say I wanted eHaley, a Defender, a box of Trenchers and Maxwell Finn (a warcaster, a warjack, a unit and a solo, roughly a 15 point army, I think it is 1 or 2 pts over but whatever)

$17.99+$34.99+$54.99+$12.99 from Privateer Press's gallery for prices, so $120.96 US

$20.70+$40.50+$63.90+$15.30 from my local store for prices, so $140.40 AU

$11.45+$28.14+$47.27+$8.89 from Wayland Games for prices, so $95.75 AU

That is three places you would go to get it, so the disparity isn't so bad between PP and my local store, but obvious discounts getting it from wayland, and I'm assuming other stores like it (miniature market et all,)

 Morachi wrote:
It's like you told a devout Catholic that Satan makes a killer potato salad at your monthly dinner parties.

Avoid his egg and potato salad - it will give you sulfur gas like you would not believe.

He makes the best deviled eggs though.

Seen players acting like that in non-GW stores, pressuring folks to get 40K or Warhammer Fantasy Battle rather than WARMACHINE for example.

Seen a couple of them get booted from a store as well.

Evangelical gamers are a nuisance whether they are wearing a store uniform or not.

The Auld Grump, the worst offenders weren't GW players though - they were some really, really, annoying GURPS players.

Can't blame their retailers for hitting up customers. You can
blame them if they continue past a no-thank-you.

I'd be inclined to agree normally, however the sales tactics of every GW store (bar one) that i've walked into comes off as overbearing and intimidating. Almost as if you owe them something for merely walking into the store. I don't get that at other retail outlets i've purchased goods from :/

You see, they ask questions like "Hey how're you going? What are you into? What army do you play? What project are you working on? What are you buying next? etc", which is all fine and well, but normally the first question most ask is "Can I help you?", which would normally give you the opportunity without sounding rude or dismissive to say "no thank you".

They are masters of engaging a person and hanging onto them, making anyone with decency feel like gak for trying to disengage... especially without buying something :/

The best GW I walked into was the GW Macarthur Sequare store.

The manager walked up, and asked if I was new. I said no, I've been playing for 20 years. He asked what I played, pointed me to the Tyranids, and went off to do his own thing. I appreciated that enough to actually buy something there.

After that, whenever I walked in, again, no pressure. Just chatted about what I was working on, how my Tyranids were going, and then left me to browse.

Sadly, that manager is gone. He now works at an EB store.

carmachu wrote:

JWhex wrote:


Your ability to shop online has not been taken away. I bet you $1000 dollars that their is a teenager living nearby you that can help you find the GW website and ebay where you can buy all this stuff from your house while wearing your fluffy slippers.

Please show me the shopping cart on thewarstore or miniature mart where I can click and buy the product without hassle. GW store is overpriced as is ebay.

So I take you up if you can find it on either of those two websites that have given me great service and product, unlike the two crappy sites you listed. Remeber its add it to the cart and buy. Not download a list and call.

My ability to shop where I want and what I want is been reduced. And if I lived in Australia, its been reduced more.

In your original post you specifically said that your ability to shop online has been taken away. I conclusively demonstrated that you were exagerating and factually incorrect. Now you have changed your complaint to I cant shop online where I want, which is an entirely different situation.

Bugger, if only there were more like him. The only decent experience i've had was with a lad at Chermside in Brisbane (Jeremy I think his name was). Had a good chat, no pressure, even talked about other competing products and conversions... I was the only one in the store, so perhaps he felt safe doing so.

My local manager is pretty laid back as well. Asking if I need help, if it's slow a little small talk, and that's pretty much it.

All I ever buy anymore are paints though.

 Morachi wrote:
Bugger, if only there were more like him. The only decent experience i've had was with a lad at Chermside in Brisbane (Jeremy I think his name was). Had a good chat, no pressure, even talked about other competing products and conversions... I was the only one in the store, so perhaps he felt safe doing so.

The last time I was in the Chermside GW was at the release of 8th edition fantasy (so a few years ago now), and I was having a good chat with one of the guy who worked there about 8th ed BRB that they had just gotten a copy of, and we were having a good relaxed chat about it, and it was great. However, 5 minutes into that the actual manager came in, and after that I could barely get anything said, all he could talk about was how I should preorder the book, do I want to do that now, how about I buy some new models to get ready for 8th, how about I pre-order the special edition, pre-order pre-order pre-order... I couldn't have a nice chat about the new rules any more, couldn't check out the book with him there telling me to pre-order, and I really didn't like the hard-sell attitude he had, so I made some excuses and left pretty quickly. I mean, the manager might well have been a nice guy, I'm sure the sales pitches were drilled into him by the HQ, but the hard-sell attitude just drove me away pretty quickly.

Now, I mostly shop at Good Games at spring hill, or Ace comics in Annerley, and both are far more relaxed places to go and hang out, and have a browse.