What I saw from GW in a professional setting on 4/4/2013 (edited for clarity)

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**AllSeeingSkink**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
JWhex wrote:
Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.

"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."

Hill of beans indeed...

Someone needs to give the professor a "T. Kirby" nametag so we can make memes for all of GW's actions

**Morachi**

I believe a chunk of these retorts were addressed earlier...

JWhex wrote:
Tanakosyke22 wrote:
Nucflash wrote:
carmachu wrote:
Kingsley wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kingsley wrote:
The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.

Not really, only to you. For other folks, taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.

GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's. Yet another problem.

I can go on if you like.

Let me...

Finecast crap...
Slow Codex updates.. to push people to buy new armies
Poorly done Power creep... to force people into getting a new army to stay competative...
No offical Tournament suport
Making White Dwarf into an advert magazine with little substance..
Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers..
Stopping open gaming in their stores (there are no veterans allowed at my local GW for example)..
Constant price hikes...
No offical Forums..
Removing lots of articles from their main site...
Instructing their store employes to aggressively target customers (most often Childrean, a despicable practice) Trying and push the latest product on them... (Many times when i whent into one of their stores, to buy something I got pestered if I had seen this or that and, arnt you going to buy this or that.. Until I told them the Shut the F up and leave me alone).
Abandoning many games.. Like Warhammer fantasy Roleplay, Mordheim and Blood Bowl...

We can go on if you like Kingsley... Because the list of wrongdoings is far from complete....

Just for that, I have to give you an Exalt my friend!

I have to say, GW has been getting worse, and still has the attitude that they think they are the only ones making this type of product (still can be argued that they are still the largest to a point, but that is slowly slipping away from how they A) Treat customers and/or potential customers like they are inferiors to them, or freeloaders if GW stuff is bought anywhere except their website.

B) Trying to police critisms about their product and how they act (The forums as you said and taking down their facebook page during the "Space Marine" debacle) )

Now I am not one for complaining about a business and that too much, I just want to play a game and hobby for heaven's sake, but if a business is going to treat me like that..... well I would just buy their damn product somewhere else from the second hand market or find substitutes for it.

Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.

Nucflash wrote:
Slow Codex updates.. to push people to buy new armies

This does not make any sense. You would want to release codexes faster not slower to push people to buy models.

Actually, there is a fine balance between the two. If you release too fast, you're sure to run into supply problems. If you don't release fast enough, you're up against 7+ year releases (take Codex Eldar for example).

Nucflash wrote:
Poorly done Power creep... to force people into getting a new army to stay competative

Unless you are really dedictaed to tournaments this is just a nonissue as well. Besides codexes are rotated only after several years and people would raise hell if a codex came out that did not have some new and interesting models. Releasing new models that people want to buy is how they stay in business. Sure they could do a better job at writing rules but as a general criticism I just have to roll my eyes at it. In any event you dont have to buy an entire new army when your codex is renewed that is just exageration.

If you are highly competitive in any arena you are going to have to spend more money on your hobby or sport. That is not the fault of the manufacturer, it is the result that their will always be people that are willing to spend a lot of money for even a small advantage. If you cant deal with itthe heat, GTFO of the kitchen

People who have invested heavily in a product have the right to feel wrong done by - basically the dickishness factor comes into play when something is SEEN to be unfair. Regardless, there is stong evidence to support power creep in alot of books (not all but most) and this is further bolstered by WD battle reports showing the new shiney army as the victor - its a sales thing, but even so, if it deteriorates the fun value of your investment then that is dickish behaviour. Here in Australia the tournament scene is rampant, even in the friendly sense, the "take all comers army" and tactics to suit is common.

Nucflash wrote:
No offical Tournament suport

Another nonissue and not likely to be strictly true. There are plenty of tournaments around. I really dont care who runs them and if GW isnt running them, then you can use proxies and non GW figures.

You may personally not, but that doesn't mean others don't - your viewpoint is entirely your own. We used to have tournament support, this has not been the case for a very long time. It adds to a very long list of things GW used to provide but has slowly but surely been cutting out - to the point that hobby support feels non-existent compared to the 90s.

NEWS ALERT: YOUR FLGS PROBABLY DOES GET MODELS FROM GW FOR FREE THAT COULD BE USED AS TOURNAMENT SUPPORT.

I know for a fact that one of my local FLGS, which is really small gets models for free from GW as "product support" because he told me. He does not use them for tournament support he auctions them off to raise money for a charity. Now if this little one man hole in the wall shop is getting product support from GW, you can bet your own FLGS is also.

Again, you appear to be in a minority - none of the FLGS here in Aus that I personally know get anything for free - if anything they are bound by certain terms to stock items which in some cases end up costing them more in floor space real estate than they make back in their sales price. You cite one location, I can list quite a substantial amount more.

Nucflash wrote:
Making White Dwarf into an advert magazine with little substance

So what? GW makes a product you dont like, dont buy it. Its not like they are fooling you into buying something that is different than advertised. Month after month it is aimed at rank one beginners. They are not obligated to make a magazine to fit any particular demographic. Who cares, the WWW has made the white dwarf obsolete, another nonissue that people like to put on their pile of GW angst.

Again, what about those who have taken out subscriptions, then found their investment turn into nothing but a glorified $12 catalog? The point is that this was once a great magazine that has gone the way of the dodo - I reiterate, it's the fact GW have gone backwards in quality that has people concerned and annoyed that it is (has been) a sign of things to come. That they would take a magazine and cram it with adverts isn't seen to be in good taste, its the mindset they are establishing, regardless of whether a person buys the magazine or not.

Nucflash wrote:
No offical Forums..

Another nonissue, those forums were crap, heavily moderated and not worth bothering with. There are dozens of forums that support GW games, why should they waste time and money with a forum? The fact that GW does not have any official forum has zero negative impact on the games.

Again, those forums were a means (or at least were seen to be) to communicate directly through official channels, so the company could actively respond and shift to adapt with the changing market - any other company would LOVE to have this kind of feedback channel. I regularly use the ASUS forums for reporting defective or poorly written firmware... you don't see them killing the forum or putting their head in the sand at negative critisism? No, that's because through positive interactions the customer can see the company is trying to do the right thing even through admitting they aren't perfect - and despite a few hiccups, i'll still buy their product. This is a strong example of why GW should have direct community interaction, instead they blocked all means of interaction (even ignoring emails i've sent them on occasion).

Nucflash wrote:
Removing lots of articles from their main site

This is hardly worth caring about because of the proliferation of articles on the internet. Also, there are plenty of artists that are selling how to paint and other video guides on the internet, dozens of them have been advertised in recent years. So how is it that GW should be singled out for criticism but other people making the same kind oof products get a free pass? Anyway a lot of their painting articles that were removed used GW paints that have been renamed and reformulated. Seriously, just get over the deletion of a handful of articles that are duplicated elsewhere on the web.

This is about GW, and their poor practices - if others are doing the same thing as GW by disabling useful content, then they are as much in the wrong. Also, this move only echos the views on my previous response. Their website in general (when it was re-done) was a very poor reflection of the previous site. The fact GW advertise themselves as "the hobby" and yet strip away all aspects back to basic sales leaves a sour taste in terms of their recent trade agreements spouting reasoning of trying to do the right thing by building the community, yet remove resources that would bolster such an effort. GW are full of contradictions - just like the "White Metal" to reduce toxins in lead/pewter, yet have now switched to resin full of many toxins - they can't hide the fact it's just a money making effort, yet try to leaving their integrity torn apart.

Nucflash wrote:
Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers

While I personally would not conduct business the way GW does, it is still their product and they have every right to distribute that product in the way they believe will make them the most money. I dont see a lot of threads bashing companies for doing kickstarters that cut out the FLGS and it seems hypocritical to me that if GW sneezes people come out of the wood work and cry that GW is spreading a pandemic flu that is going to kill the hobby.

Kickstarters generally try to bolster profits initially so they can build on capital reinvestment, GW is far beyond being a small Kickstarted entity. When a company as large as GW decides to abruptly cut out the ability for a retailer to sell their product as their respective demographic market sees fit (such as a B&M store making most of its sales online vs in store), it can lead to very bitter resentment. How would you feel if a great chunk of your profits were cut because someone told you who you could sell to? You're probably going to say "Oh I wouldn't over invest so foolishly, it wouldn't effect me", but the fact remains that GW products are still outselling competitors and as a business they rely on that to make ends meet, at least until GW has pushed away enough people to no longer be the dominant sales product - something that is fast becoming fact.

Nucflash wrote:
Stopping open gaming in their stores

Well I certainly would not take this approach, but GW is paying the rent and taxes on the store so they are entitled to manage their business the way they think will make them the most money. Unless you want to take some kind of highly intrusive stance on how people run a private business, whining constantly about how they should do it "your way" instead of "their way" does not have any real world validity. Because you do not have access to their numbers and other financial information, you are pretty much just back seat driving when you try and judge how someone else should best manage their business affairs.

This is simply silly on their part, it has been a while since I last saw anyone in a GW store playing a game - simply because of the aggressive sales tactics. Sure you mention later that "Car salesmen are aggressive, get a thicker skin", but they are targeting KIDS, not adults. Kids can't defend themselves and are strongly influenced. But back on topic, GW are showing they have no interest in growing the hobby or the community by cutting out store gaming - when I first got into the hobby, I enjoyed walking in to watch a game, and that in itself would get the fires burning to want to buy something... an excellent sales tactic that empowers the buyer, not though bullying tactics. All of these moves can be seen as dickish.

Nucflash wrote:
Instructing their store employes to aggressively target customers

LMAO at this. Maybe you are not old enough to have visited a car dealership. Aggressive sales people is just a fact for a lot of businesses, you need to develop a little thicker skin.

Again, Car dealers deal with adults, these guys are dealing with Kids. I know if I was 14 and had a 6 foot bearded man standing over me saying "Why don't you buy a White Dwarf subscription?!", i'd be very intimidated.

Nucflash wrote:
Until I told them the Shut the F up and leave me alone

That was exceptionally rude, any sensible manager would have banished you from the premises immediately.

Nucflash wrote:
Abandoning many games.. Like Warhammer fantasy Roleplay, Mordheim and Blood Bowl.

You are obviously clueless about what is and what is not supported. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has been licensed to Fantasy Flight Games and has a very good product line. Bloodbowl can be purchased from the GW website as can Mordheim and many warbands. This hardly counts as them being "abandoned". In fact you can even get the Mordheim rules for free from GW as a pdf even though they still sell the rulebook. Next time try a little harder and do some research.

Tanakosyke22 wrote:
Trying to police critisms about their product and how they act (The forums as you said and taking down their facebook page during the "Space Marine" debacle) )

Any business is going to do whatever it can to manage its public image. The management of image is a multimillion dollar business. The fact that they took down their facebook page because it was being flooded with negativity was a perfectly sensible thing to do. The FB page really wasnt anything more than some free advertising and probably only reached people that already knew about GW.

You're right, any business is well within their rights to protect it, but that is normally done by POSITIVE customer relations, not just putting their head in the sand - again, seen as dickish. If they had actually responded to the public with proper thought rather than a very basic rant of "We do it because we can", then the negative backlash would have at the very least been dampened. Other companies i've seen have actually turned around, said "Yes it was an oversight in process, we have retracted <insert stuff up here> and have actively engaged the <company/persons> affected... rah rah rah"... you get the drift.

carmachu wrote:
taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.

Your ability to shop online has not been taken away. I bet you $1000 dollars that their is a teenager living nearby you that can help you find the GW website and ebay where you can buy all this stuff from your house while wearing your fluffy slippers.

Whilst there are other means available, GW are actively trying to make that HARDER. Hell, in 2009 they sent eBay an email to stop 2nd hand sales of any GW product (eBay told them to stick it), but they try every avenue available to direct sales to their online stores only. For those of us in Australia, we have to seek out folks in the US who are flying under the radar (as I have done the past decade) in order to get products at a reasonable price. Imagine how that makes me (and many others) feel?

carmachu wrote:
GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's.

I enjoyed this service too but I do not have the childish notion that a company should continue a service that was costing them money instead of making money for them. I surely wish that I could call the Chevrolet dealer and get parts for a 1957 Chevy but I have no expectation for them to fullfill that request. In any event their are other manufacturers that sell their own custom made bits and third party resellers that sell GW bits. You are whining and crying over milk that has not even been spilled.

Ironic then, that GW is targeting these custom bits sellers in a bid to shut them down as well - so not only have they stopped providing a service, they are trying to block the market from filling that void... sorry but that is just plain dickish. Companies that provide good will in their sales and customer relations do alot better than those who don't, that is why you get brand loyalty from.

Some of you people remind me of a District Attorney that just piles on a hundred trivial or irrelevant duplicate charges against a defendant. Try sticking to issues that matter like quality control, pricing and sloppy rule writing. Just piling on all these silly and trivial complaints makes your case against GW look weaker not stronger.

You seem to be in the minority on this one, but your observed anger towards those who have their eyes open to what GW is doing has been noted.

**JWhex**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
JWhex wrote:
Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.

"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."

Hill of beans indeed...

I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.

**Morachi**

JWhex wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
JWhex wrote:
Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.

"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."

Hill of beans indeed...

I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.

Of course they have the right, no one is disputing that, its the fact that its seen as dodgy that is the consensus here. Most markets these days are capitalistic by nature, but GW have made bad decision after bad decision which has in effect stagnated the take up of their product rather than grown the demand for it. This in effect is why other companies are now getting their (growing) share of the pie, whilst GW's share declines. Sure their sales figures are still hovering, but that is due to all the marginal profit changes (such as 1 man stores, half the models, twice the price, Finecast material costs etc). It was shown somewhere that the market is growing, yet they sit at a stalemate, and that is of their own doing, much to the dismay of thsoe who have previous invested lots of money in GW products.

**rigeld2**

Yes, they have every right to set their own policies. I'm pretty sure no one has said otherwise.

People have just said, rightly, that these new policies are dumb and show that GW is succeeding in spite of what they do and not because of it.

**H.B.M.C.**

JWhex wrote:
I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.

Nope. Sorry. Stop right there. I call bull gak.

Capitalist market? And... what... they’re alone in this? All the other miniature game makers out there are somehow not acting in a capitalist market? What about acting in a capitalist market means they should act like dicks towards their customer base? Why do a lot of other companies get by without doing the things GW does.

“They operate in a capitalist market” isn’t an explanation. It isn’t even an excuse. It’s a cop out. It's about as untrue as the "they only have a responsibilty to the shareholders" nonsense that gets peddled by the whitest of white-armoured lunatics that post here.

**heartserenade**

Saying that they can do whatever they want in a capitalist market is like saying a candidate for presidency can say nasty things about his voters in public. Sure, he/she can do that but why would he/she do that, and will it benefit him/her?

Being able to do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.

**TheAuldGrump**

heartserenade wrote:
Saying that they can do whatever they want in a capitalist market is like saying a candidate for presidency can say nasty things about his voters in public. Sure, he/she can do that but why would he/she do that, and will it benefit him/her?

Being able to do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.

Oh, come on - saying nasty things about the voters worked so well for Mitt Romney!

Oh, wait.... He lost, didn't he?

Saying bad things about critics helped make 4e what it is today!

Oh, wait... 4e made D&D the second best selling RPG, when it started as first... and 5e is already in the works, isn't it?

The Auld Grump, yeah, insulting your potential customers is seldom a good move....

**Grot 6**

JWhex wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
JWhex wrote:
Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.

"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."

Hill of beans indeed...

I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.

Do you see the irony in this post?

THEN, you claim that people have no RIGHT to complain?

These policies are stifling the games, company and players, if you haven't figured it out. they are losing sales, trying to offset gains by increasing price, irregardless of the greek salad excuses.
In a free market, complaints serve two functions, and there can be only TWO different outcomes.

**Surtur**

JWhex wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
JWhex wrote:
Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.

"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."

Hill of beans indeed...

I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.

Two problems.

1. Legal =/= ethical. This is not a hard concept. Businesses still operate under ethics. Just because they can do something, doesn't mean then should do something.

2. GW is limited on business regulations and trade regulations. Their actions could very well be challenged in courts, but there's no money in those who they attack. There's no such thing as a multimillion dollar FLGS.

**Nucflash**

JWhex wrote:
Tanakosyke22 wrote:
Nucflash wrote:
carmachu wrote:

This does not make any sense

About the Power creep and slow Codex uppdates and why they are BAD for most gaming groups. Most people dont like to jump armies, they find one they like and they want to stick whit it. Slow Codex uppdates makes it so that they will be left behind, and get beaten every time (I have seen this happen countless times druing the years 1990-2010, when I played Warhammer fantasy and 40k). The choise that GW leaves them with is Get a new army or stop playing. Many stop playing, others get a new army.. For GW this used to be Win Win, Because when they finaly got around to push out a new Codex in their rotation.. the players who quit would probably buy that codex and start playing again.. and new people would have gotten into the hobby and face the same situation as the people who played/quit or got a new army a few years back...This makes GW alot more money then Releasing codexes faster, because then people would just stick to one army and buy a few models here and there..their rules are not built for that kind of release schedule.. They are built so that you should buy new armies on a regular basis.. Because the base rulebook (that changes the meta of the game) has a faster release then many codexes...

This business policy used to be very successful for GW... But what they dident count on was that the competition would use another aproche.. suddenly everyone could play their favorit army and never need to get a new one... Suddenly people stoped coming back.......

Also my List was all the things I(and everyone I know in my local gaming meta about 70 people) dissagree with.. and it is very long these days.... These things are not Nonissues, because if they were we would all still be playing WHFB and 40k...

**BryllCream**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
JWhex wrote:
I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.

Nope. Sorry. Stop right there. I call bull gak.

Capitalist market? And... what... they’re alone in this? All the other miniature game makers out there are somehow not acting in a capitalist market? What about acting in a capitalist market means they should act like dicks towards their customer base? Why do a lot of other companies get by without doing the things GW does.

“They operate in a capitalist market” isn’t an explanation. It isn’t even an excuse. It’s a cop out. It's about as untrue as the "they only have a responsibilty to the shareholders" nonsense that gets peddled by the whitest of white-armoured lunatics that post here.

Apparently computer games in Australia cost twice as much as they do in North America Source

Electricity prices are about 50% higher Source

Computing/IT stuff costs about 20% more Source

There's a whole list of stuff here.

Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.

**PhantomViper**

BryllCream wrote:

Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.

Because every other miniature wargaming company does it?

And you are the only one talking about "below-market", what GW does in Australia has nothing to do with market prices.

The depts that Dakka's White Knights have plunged into that they now even defend GW's Australia's pricing policies... sheesh!

**BryllCream**

PhantomViper wrote:
BryllCream wrote:

Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.

Because every other miniature wargaming company does it?

Then ask then how they manage to do it. It's unreasonable to knock GW for pricing themselves in line with large companies. My gut feeling would be that GW, being more mainstream, prices itself in comparison to other comparable hobbies (video games, board games etc) whereas the more niche wargaming companies mainly only appeal to specialised wargamers.

**PhantomViper**

BryllCream wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
BryllCream wrote:

Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.

Because every other miniature wargaming company does it?

Then ask then how they manage to do it. It's unreasonable to knock GW for pricing themselves in line with large companies. My gut feeling would be that GW, being more mainstream, prices itself in comparison to other comparable hobbies (video games, board games etc) whereas the more niche wargaming companies mainly only appeal to specialised wargamers.

How they MANAGE to do it?! Seriously, are you this removed from reality or are you just trolling at this point?

GW's states in their financial reports that they have a 76% average margin on their miniatures, you don't think that they could MANAGE to lower their prices in Australia to keep them in line with other miniature companies?

And its unreasonable to knock GW for pricing themselves with unrelated companies instead of their direct competitors?! Really?

They charge the prices that they do because they WAN'T, because that is what they believe that their average customer can be charged for it. Its profiteering pure and simple. And then to defend GW and say that their customers can't complain about this policy is beyond

!

**Alfndrate**

BryllCream wrote:

Apparently computer games in Australia cost twice as much as they do in North America Source

From your "source":

the evidence seems to indicate that game prices in Australia are dropping, albeit slowly. Triple-A new-release titles such as Assassin's Creed III, Halo 4, Dishonored, and Far Cry 3 all launched in the last 12 months with an RRP of $89.95 (for consoles). Retailers also offer discounts on new-release titles, lowering prices even further: for example, at the time of writing, JB Hi-Fi is offering Far Cry 3 for $69.

So the Australian video game market is even commenting that prices are going down, and 34% (of which Australians pay in increase over US prices) is not half. And here's the kicker...

According to EB Games, Australia's largest physical video game retailer, video game prices in Australia have dropped on average about 20 percent in the last year. While Australian game publishers are choosing to stay silent on any official drops in standard recommended retail price (RRP) across new-release titles (all major publishers declined to comment on the issue when contacted by GameSpot), the evidence seems to indicate that game prices in Australia are dropping, albeit slowly. Triple-A new-release titles such as Assassin's Creed III, Halo 4, Dishonored, and Far Cry 3 all launched in the last 12 months with an RRP of $89.95 (for consoles). Retailers also offer discounts on new-release titles, lowering prices even further: for example, at the time of writing, JB Hi-Fi is offering Far Cry 3 for $69.

However, the general feeling among consumers is that game publishers could be doing more to bridge the gap even further.

Earlier this year, the Australian government announced a parliamentary inquiry into high product prices in the Australian IT and technology sector, including video games. In its submission to the inquiry, Australian consumer group CHOICE conducted research to show the differences between Australian and US tech prices, reporting that:

"Australians are paying on average 34 percent more for software, 51 percent more for iTunes music, 88 percent more for Wii games, and 41 percent more for computer hardware than US consumers."

At a subsequent public hearing into the issue, Australian Industry Information Association--which represents hardware, software and digital media vendors--cited retail rental costs, research and development costs, labour costs and warranty obligations as major reasons why Australians are forced to pay more for technology hardware and software.

Speaking at the hearing, former EB Games employee Damien Holley said he had continuously asked local game publishers why games were more expensive in Australia during his time working for the retailer.

"Several explanations came over the years," Holley told the hearing. "The first was [that] the [Australian] dollar was too low against the US dollar. Later, when we got parity, it was claimed that different advertising took up the cost. When informed that the same ads in the US were playing here, the excuse changed to import taxes and the general cost of importing the games."

Later, Holley told the hearing that he believes publishers were prepared to adjust game prices to "what they believed the market would pay".

So if the market is no longer willing to pay 89 dollars for a game, what does the game industry have to do? Isn't this the basics of supply and demand? As prices rise, the "demand" (in this case the pool of people that would purchase/impulse buy the game within the first week) starts to shrink and supply stays steady. Game companies want to sell their games, the exact same way as GW wants to sell their models, the problem is that the game companies are realizing that people in Australia are getting sick of being charged 30 dollars more on a game that costs maybe 10 dollars to make. And what's the major difference between a game in Australia and the US? Not much (though our friends from down under can correct me). I mean it's not like Australia has censorship laws like China does, where game companies have to almost actively develop a second version of the game for a single country (idk what the game playing population is in China).

But how do you explain the pricing strategy for things like digital content? As it has been pointed out before, someone can fly to the US and purchase a physical copy of Adobe products for less than what it costs to buy it digitally from within the borders of their own country! I'm not contesting that things cost more in Australia, and that GW is most likely falling under some of the same "issues" that are plaguing other companies, but a lot of those other companies are coming under fire for their pricing, including Apple, Adobe, and some game companies (at least there was a link in that article...

The problem is that other game companies, competitors of Games workshop, are able to offer their products for roughly the same price as their home country prices, why can't Games Workshop do the same? They had a massive production system with "manufactorums" (for lack of a better word) in North America, China (for a time), and Australia to assuage the difficulties of shipping products to their stores. Apparently that didn't work, because they've shut down Australia and North America (and have pulled out of China few years now).

Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.

Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.

**Kingsley**

Alfndrate wrote:
Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.

While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.

The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.

**Alfndrate**

Kingsley wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.

While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.

The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.

Thank you for clearly skipping the entirety of my post, especially the point where I quoted an article in Bryllcream's post that said, "what they believed the market would pay." (I even bolded it so it would be easier to read). I'm well aware that GW is chargine outrageous prices in Australia because people there keep buying the product, but like I mentioned in my post (though i actually believe it was my post I linked, here I'll link it again), there are companies being taken to task for their gouging of the Australian market.

**Morachi**

Kingsley wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.

While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.

The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.

What we have been doing to at least keep our investment relevant (meaning up to date rules etc) is buying from the UK - wait, GW put an embargo on that... then we went to the US... oh wait, they put the embargo there as well (as of the 15th of July).

You see, I agree that by stopping any purchases here that it should send a message, but it hasn't. The sales decline here in Australia has been going on for a while now, and GW has picked up on the fact that we are seeking other avenues to keep our investment usable whilst denying them the overinflated AUD prices they are asking.

In effect, this has been picked up on by other companies who now recast GW goods (ChinaForge et al) or create the bits needed (Chapter House) thereby filling that void - if GW actually did the right thing by the customer, this market would either not exist, or be so fruitless that it would inevitbly collapse (speculation of course - but not unfounded).

**Kingsley**

Alfndrate wrote:
Kingsley wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.

While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.

The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.

Thank you for clearly skipping the entirety of my post, especially the point where I quoted an article in Bryllcream's post that said, "what they believed the market would pay." (I even bolded it so it would be easier to read). I'm well aware that GW is chargine outrageous prices in Australia because people there keep buying the product, but like I mentioned in my post (though i actually believe it was my post I linked, here I'll link it again), there are companies being taken to task for their gouging of the Australian market.

I read that, but it doesn't matter. Companies will gouge until they can't. That's the way it works-- price to what the market will bear. If that means that a small segment of the market gets ripped off, so be it-- as long as they keep buying, keep ratcheting up the price. This is known as "price discrimination" and is popular pretty much wherever companies can get away with it.

**Alfndrate**

Aren't GW sales in Australia dropping like a brick? Shouldn't that be a pretty decent indicator that the market isn't bearing the prices anymore? Or at least that other companies may be taking a piece of that rare Wargaming pie that they weren't in the past?

**Morachi**

Indeed it is, however GW simply decided "Those convicts are buying from the UK and US... an embargo shall fix that!". However, if GW think that will stop us from buying overseas, they're sadly mistaken - there will always be eBay, Bartertown.com and many other trade sites (and willing people to mail forward to Aus). Resourceful little buggers we are

**H.B.M.C.**

Their solution to falling sales was fight against the changing retail world rather than adapt with it.

**Saldiven**

Kingsley wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.

While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.

The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.

But they did do that, Kingsley.

When the Australian gaming populace noticed the disparity in costs between AUS prices and prices in Europe, they began to purchase their goods from European internet sales. When GW noticed that drop in sales at the AUS retailers, rather than adjusting their prices to make them more attractive to AUS customers, they put in place policies to prevent AUS buyers from making purchases from European internet vendors.

This still didn't work to drive sales into AUS retailers. The AUS buyers discovered they could make their purchases from North American internet vendors. Again, GW noticed that their AUS retail sales weren't as good as they should be. They again had the opportunity to realize that their pricing was out of line with what the AUS consumer was willing to pay. Instead of addressing their AUS pricing, they enacted policies to prevent North American internet retailes from selling to AUS consumers.

Ther AUS consumer has tried to speak with their wallet, but GW hasn't seemed interested in hearing. We will have to wait and see what the final upshot is, but I actually highly doubt that these restrictions on international internet purchases are going to result in significantly greater sales in AUS retail locations. The more likely occurance will be consumers moving to less expensive competitors. Maybe then GW will realize the mistake in their AUS pricing and adjust the pricing policy, but there's no way to really predict that.

**notprop**

Edited by AgeOfEgos

**Morachi**

And here I was thinking the Brits had that title licked

... I mean, given how many times we've won the Cricket.

**Lansirill**

Morachi wrote:
And here I was thinking the Brits had that title licked

... I mean, given how many times we've won the Cricket.

For the love of god, why are you licking insects?!

**notprop**

Morachi wrote:
And here I was thinking the Brits had that title licked

... I mean, given how many times we've won the Cricket.

We've won it once since then, so all your cricket is ours!

**Fenrir Kitsune**

Morachi wrote:
And here I was thinking the Brits had that title licked

... I mean, given how many times we've won the Cricket.

You win the cricket, we win at GW pricing.

I know which I prefer.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Kingsley wrote:
The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.

This argument is repeated again and again and again (not just for Australia, but for GW in general). Games workshop sales have stagnated and even dropped. Games workshop is losing market share.

People aren't "just buying it anyway". They are moving away from GW. When Australians decided to show they aren't willing to pay those prices and started buying internationally, they didn't aren't going to adjust the prices, they are going to lock down international sales.

You can't have your pie and eat it too, you can't say GW is only doing it because Australians (or any other market) are continuing to buy it and ignore the facts that GW has been stagnant for several years in an otherwise growing market and that Australians HAVE been trying to buy at lower prices overseas.

This is why there's the widely held belief that GW are trying to prop up short term numbers at the expense of the community and thus long term numbers.