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 Purifier wrote:
I hate it when they feel the need to make the women look pseudo-male to make them look badass.

So if they aren't shoving their tits and ass in your face, aren't showing tons of skin, and don't have a "I'm a model in a fake uniform" pose,, they're "pseudo-male"?

Honestly, I just want to see a good model range of female soldiers who look like, you know, professional female soldiers. There's a few out there that are individual models, but no real ranges that can be put together as a proper army that looks both varied and internally consistent.

 Melissia wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I hate it when they feel the need to make the women look pseudo-male to make them look badass.

So if they aren't shoving their tits and ass in your face, aren't showing tons of skin, and don't have a "I'm a model in a fake uniform" pose,, they're "pseudo-male"?

Wow, that's not even a little bit what I said. I could have said "hi" and you would have read it as a long story the way you read things into what wasn't there.

When I saw Jean D'arc, the movie, I thought "THIS is how you write and act a character that is heroic and female."

this is what she looks like:


When I saw GI Jane, I couldn't think anything but "Oh my god, they are trying to have her be a man."
The character was so poor. Pseudo male.

In modeling terms, I compare it to taking a male model and modeling breasts onto it and saying "this is now female."

It isn't. It's crap.

 Purifier wrote:
Wow, that's not even a little bit what I said.

On the contrary, your reaction to someone complaining about fan-service was to act as if it was a dichotomy; either "fan-service" or "pseudo-male", and nothing in between.

I don't believe in such a dichotomy (nor, I should note, do I particularly care for the art style of the Catachan army).

 Melissia wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Wow, that's not even a little bit what I said.

On the contrary, your reaction to someone complaining about fan-service was to act as if it was a dichotomy; either "fan-service" or "pseudo-male", and nothing in between.

I don't believe in such a dichotomy (nor, I should note, do I particularly care for the art style of the Catachan army).

on the contrary, you made that distinction. I only said I don't care for the models that are as I describe and that I don't find these to be fanservice.

 Purifier wrote:
on the contrary, you made that distinction

I never used the term "pseudo-male" except in response to your post.

The hypothetical models I refer to would be something like, say... this:

Spoilered-- it's a large image at ~3000x4000.
It's one of the better things about Planetside, really. Blacklight: Retribution comes to mind as well.

Or even something like 2nd Lt. Mira from Space Marine, who was badass and feminine, without being fanservicey.

 Melissia wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
on the contrary, you made that distinction

I never used the term "pseudo-male" except in response to your post.

You did, however, make the distinction that there was (apparently in MY head!?) nothing in between. Which was what you were arguing here.
I NEVER SAID THAT. That was all you.

Those models (or the concept of it atleast) look fine, but a bit dull. I would like to build an army of those, but I'd want it to be 50/50 male/female, in the same type of armour. That way the difference would be more visible.
I want my females to stand out as such. I don't want them to be mistaken for my male models.

To get more back on topic, talking about Sisters of Battle...

While I know it's never going to happen, I'd actually kind of like to see the corset replaced with something like a more gothic version of the breastplate that Chris Lightfellow wears in Suikoden 3:


Imagining something like that, with a slightly more segmented abdominal section and a very ornate fleur de lys prominent on the chestplate itself, and the remainder of the power armor (shoulders, gauntlets, boots, helmet, etc) being like that of the current Sisters armor, makes me smile-- it'd give them the image of holy warriors of the Emperor, which is how I style my Sororitas units. I mean it's not like there couldn't be two kinds of power armor that Sororitas wear anyway, the galaxy is a huge place-- so you wouldn't have to get rid of the old models.

 Purifier wrote:
I want my females to stand out as such. I don't want them to be mistaken for my male models.

I don't see why they need to be showing cleavage/ bellybuttons or have their hips or bust thrust out in an awkward, silly pose for them to stand out as female.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't see why they need to be showing cleavage/ bellybuttons or have their hips or bust thrust out in an awkward, silly pose for them to stand out as female.

Neither do I. I don't know why you would assume I require that. I even just gave you an example of how to make it stand out in the sentence before the one you quoted.
Can't deny all of those ways do work for it though. You pick and choose what you want to read and then read something in between that, and then get aggrevated by what hasn't been said. you should not try so hard in searching for things to get insulted by. I don't believe it is a feeling you like any more than the rest of us.

 Purifier wrote:
Can't deny all of those ways do work for it though.

And placing a giant codpiece and having a massive berserker-beard on a model can arguably make it look more undeniably male, but that doesn't mean that we have to do it on every freaking model, like the industry currently does with female minis. Nor does it make it appropriate for the particular model in question. It would be stupid for guardswomen to have cleavage showing in their flak armor, for example, and yet even without this it would be remarkably easy to have them modeled as female soldiers instead of male.

Also, I'm reading your whole post. I just don't desire to have huge quote chains. Besides, it's not like you've been quoting my entire post either Let's not start nitpicking about the size of my quote boxes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside, I can tell my attempts at humor have gone unnoticed. I'm being a bit of an insomniac, so I apologize if what was intended to be light-hearted ended up being kind of stupid instead.

 Melissia wrote:
Let's not

I LOVE models with beards. The model below is one of my favourites (and my absolute favourite priest) used with the sisters.
And I wasn't nitpicking about the size of the quote, but the way you completely ignored what I said. The fact was that I had just said I would like to make the distinction by simply putting them next to males, and you ignored that to make it look like I had said I needed vaginas in the open to make them look female. (Hyperbole. That right there was hyperbole.)

I just don't think it has to always be a bad thing. Sure, you don't need your whole army in bikini armour (which clearly looks silly) but a sniper that clearly isn't wearing any armour, wearing a shirt that she feels comfortable in which just so happens to not cover much. I think people are going too far in their loathing of skin on females, or female stances. I can see where it's coming from. The generations of games with silly bikini armour, and oversexualised women have resulted in a lash-back. I think you can still do without that prejudice though.

Haha, oh god, that model is so bad. It's not as bad as the Sister Dialogous, but geeze

It's an old (deranged) man with a big chainsaw, I think it captures the image well enough.

It's a far cry from the horror from the deep that is the Sister Dialogus.

Coming this christmas...

 Shandara wrote:
It's an old (deranged) man with a big chainsaw, I think it captures the image well enough.

It's a far cry from the horror from the deep that is the Sister Dialogus.

LOOK AT IT! LOOK AT IIIIT!
STARE INTO THE GAPING MAW OF MADNESS!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
It's an old (deranged) man with a big chainsaw, I think it captures the image well enough.

It's a far cry from the horror from the deep that is the Sister Dialogus.

LOOK AT IT! LOOK AT IIIIT!
STARE INTO THE GAPING MAW OF MADNESS!

OH GOD-EMPRAH AND ALL OF CHAOS, what an abomination!

I have yet to find anyone that argues with the dialogus being the worst model GW has ever released. I'm thinking of getting one just because of that.

Why just one? Why not an army

GW should really make a finecast boxset of those. Limited edition, of course.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
It's an old (deranged) man with a big chainsaw, I think it captures the image well enough.

It's a far cry from the horror from the deep that is the Sister Dialogus.

LOOK AT IT! LOOK AT IIIIT!
STARE INTO THE GAPING MAW OF MADNESS!

Oh christ.

When I first saw the unsettling picture of the Dialogus on the GW site, I just thought that it was just a very badly painted example. But no, I've never seen one painted in a way that makes it look less disturbing. The model itself is just... wrong,

When I eventually buy one, I'm gonna replace the head. The head with the comm-bead in the Immolator kit would work nicely.

Would Samus Aran's aesthetic be fitting for the SOBs or would the definitive heroine of video gaming (Other M? THERE NEVER WAS AN OTHER M NONONONONONONONONONONBONONONONNONONOOONOOOOOOOO!!!) be more fitting for Gue'vesa scum?

 Kain wrote:
Would Samus Aran's aesthetic be fitting for the SOBs or would the definitive heroine of video gaming (Other M? THERE NEVER WAS AN OTHER M NONONONONONONONONONONBONONONONNONONOOONOOOOOOOO!!!) be more fitting for Gue'vesa scum?

I don't think it really fits with the SoB's very gothic aesthetic, personally.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with the current SoB armour. Though that one that Melissa suggested would suit them too.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
It's an old (deranged) man with a big chainsaw, I think it captures the image well enough.

It's a far cry from the horror from the deep that is the Sister Dialogus.

LOOK AT IT! LOOK AT IIIIT!
STARE INTO THE GAPING MAW OF MADNESS!

And, whatever you do, don't look at the symbol about her midriff. T'ain't canon any more. Nothing to see here.

That gob, though - you can't stop staring at it...

Mythal wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
It's an old (deranged) man with a big chainsaw, I think it captures the image well enough.

It's a far cry from the horror from the deep that is the Sister Dialogus.

LOOK AT IT! LOOK AT IIIIT!
STARE INTO THE GAPING MAW OF MADNESS!

And, whatever you do, don't look at the symbol about her midriff. T'ain't canon any more. Nothing to see here.

That gob, though - you can't stop staring at it...

It's like a black hole...

 Kain wrote:

Mythal wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
It's an old (deranged) man with a big chainsaw, I think it captures the image well enough.

It's a far cry from the horror from the deep that is the Sister Dialogus.

LOOK AT IT! LOOK AT IIIIT!
STARE INTO THE GAPING MAW OF MADNESS!

And, whatever you do, don't look at the symbol about her midriff. T'ain't canon any more. Nothing to see here.

That gob, though - you can't stop staring at it...

It's like a black hole...

...They must have done this on purpose:

Yes, we can tell what they were going for, but they still failed to get there.

Well if the Sisters are no longer connected to the inquisition, who's the chamber militant of the Ordo hereticus now?

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, we can tell what they were going for, but they still failed to get there.

You can sort of imagine the mouth continuing to open until her jaw breaks, and her skull bursts inside-out between her teeth as she becomes a Daemonhost.

To keep this vaguely on topic, however, I think it's fair to say that those of us who still hold out a smidgen of hope for new Sisters models would be very, very happy if none of them looked like she does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Well if the Sisters are no longer connected to the inquisition, who's the chamber militant of the Ordo hereticus now?

Ask our Spiritual Liege, I guess

Mythal wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, we can tell what they were going for, but they still failed to get there.

You can sort of imagine the mouth continuing to open until her jaw breaks, and her skull bursts inside-out between her teeth as she becomes a Daemonhost.

To keep this vaguely on topic, however, I think it's fair to say that those of us who still hold out a smidgen of hope for new Sisters models would be very, very happy if none of them looked like she does.

50 bucks says GW feths up and gives them all endless maws of darkness.

 Kain wrote:
Well if the Sisters are no longer connected to the inquisition, who's the chamber militant of the Ordo hereticus now?

Aren't they? Don't think the WD codex explicitly said that they aren't.

Don't really see the problem with Sisters being the Ordo Hereticus's chamber militant. All it seems to mean is that the Sisters are very useful to the Hereticus, and are often asked to help the Hereticus because of this.

Purifier wrote:I think people are going too far in their loathing of skin on females, or female stances. I can see where it's coming from. The generations of games with silly bikini armour, and oversexualised women have resulted in a lash-back. I think you can still do without that prejudice though.

I have to agree with this assessment. In my opinion, it is a mistake to judge a design purely on this basis, completely detached from what it is meant to portray or the setting it is supposed to exist in. In case of the Battle Sisters, I would recommend keeping in mind that they are not a professional military in the contemporary western world's sense. They are warriors whose lifestyle is governed by religious dogma and who exist in an environment that places style over functionality regardless of gender. You can't just come into a setting where you have Space Marines with huge back banners and impractically oversized chest armour march next to barechested Feral Worlder IG troops, and then complain about an army that has not just one but several in-universe reasons to flaunt their feminity do so by way of having sculpted breasts on their armour. If someone feels that strongly 40k should place more emphasis on the contemporary understanding of practicality rather than the ren-faire look that is so central to its unique art style, then the only thing I could recommend would be switching to an army with a more boring, contemporary look.

And this is before we even get into appreciation of continuity - the Sororitas' current look is quite simply how I first got to learn of and then love them, after all.

At the same time I have to agree with Melissia that the Raging Heroes models are obvious fanservice, which (worryingly) may be part of why they are that popular.

Context is key.

Purifier wrote:I have yet to find anyone that argues with the dialogus being the worst model GW has ever released. I'm thinking of getting one just because of that.

There are worse. Ooooohhh, there are worse.
Off the top of my head, I could mention the horrible, horrible Sororitas they did for the Inquisitor RPG which, in spite of being sculpted to a larger format, ends up looking less detailed and seriously malformed.

But there were others. I think we even had a thread about the ugliest GW Mini ever, about a year back. Might be worth a look if you like to stare at bad things.

Kain wrote:Well if the Sisters are no longer connected to the inquisition, who's the chamber militant of the Ordo hereticus now?

In GW fluff, nothing has changed. They have always been allies - nothing more, nothing less. Neither are they an integral part of the Inquisition (such as the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch, for example), nor are they as "disconnected" as some random IG Regiment. For the Sisters, helping the Inquisition is like a part-time job. Normally, they focus on Ecclesiarchal activities, but they (in particular the Orders Minoris, who are locally limited in scope and operational capabilities, but seeded throughout Imperial space) are the go-to force whenever an Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus needs some serious backup.

The only thing that changed was the focus that GW's writers employed when writing their fluff. In 3rd Edition, the alliance with the Ordo Hereticus was added as if it had always been there, but pushed into the foreground (which caused some fans to erroneously believe they belong firmly to the Inquisition), whilst with the advent of 5th Edition, this has become a footnote and the Sisters are once again presented as the Ecclesiarch's standing army.

 Troike wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Well if the Sisters are no longer connected to the inquisition, who's the chamber militant of the Ordo hereticus now?

Aren't they? Don't think the WD codex explicitly said that they aren't.

Don't really see the problem with Sisters being the Ordo Hereticus's chamber militant. All it seems to mean is that the Sisters are very useful to the Hereticus, and are often asked to help the Hereticus because of this.

So this picture is still valid after all?



Huzzah!