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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
*snip*
Only because of the Mechanicum's insistence on 'replication' as opposed to 'innovation'. And the effects are otherwise similar.

Well it's more because the Orks were made by the Old Ones to fight a war on a scale that makes the Horus Heresy seem like a schoolyard brawl next to world War 2.

Sure the Orks, Hrud, Umbra, Eldar, Slann, Jokaero and co all lost (the old ones aren't breathing anymore) but you don't want to half ass your warrior races in the face of a fully united C'tan backed Necrontyr empire.

 Kain wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
*snip*
Only because of the Mechanicum's insistence on 'replication' as opposed to 'innovation'. And the effects are otherwise similar.

Well it's more because the Orks were made by the Old Ones to fight a war on a scale that makes the Horus Heresy seem like a schoolyard brawl next to world War 2.

Sure the Orks, Hrud, Umbra, Eldar, Slann, Jokaero and co all lost (the old ones aren't breathing anymore) but you don't want to half ass your warrior races in the face of a fully united C'tan backed Necrontyr empire.

Fair enough

I have to admit the Imperium cannot defeat the Eldar Empire at its height, but the DAoT Humans did give them a good run for their money, given the passive coercion of information from the imprisoned Void Dragon on Mars.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
*snip*
Only because of the Mechanicum's insistence on 'replication' as opposed to 'innovation'. And the effects are otherwise similar.

Well it's more because the Orks were made by the Old Ones to fight a war on a scale that makes the Horus Heresy seem like a schoolyard brawl next to world War 2.

Sure the Orks, Hrud, Umbra, Eldar, Slann, Jokaero and co all lost (the old ones aren't breathing anymore) but you don't want to half ass your warrior races in the face of a fully united C'tan backed Necrontyr empire.

Fair enough

I have to admit the Imperium cannot defeat the Eldar Empire at its height, but the DAoT Humans did give them a good run for their money, given the passive coercion of information from the imprisoned Void Dragon on Mars.

Even at their height the Eldar were a pale shadow of the Old One's domain. Not that they cared, because hey; 60 million year long orgy!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 Kain wrote:

If you gave Julius Caesar a jet engine, no one in rome would be able to reverse engineer it. The same applies for Necron technology.

In the new Tau Empire Codex, the Tau reverse engineered Ork "technology" and actually made something that worked. If anyone could reverse engineer Necron technology, it would be the Tau.

Most impressive...not. Most Ork 'technology' is just bastardized Imperial technology in any case.

Actually i believe it was a Kustom Force Field. A piece of Ork tech not derived from Imperial Technology, which caused the Earth Caste no end of anguish, since it shouldn't have worked in the first place.

And yet the Earth Caste still made a prototype system from it.

Tau: Yo, what's up gue'la! Come and look at my shiny new force field! Bling, bling melon-fether!

Imperial: (yawns and activates Refractor Field) What?.

Sorry to say but the Tau already have Shield Generators that function the same (better?) as Refractor Fields. Ork Kustom Force Field work on a wildly different method and a wildly different result (giving all units within 12"[?] 5+ cover).

The bigger point I am trying to make, is the Tau Earth Caste was able to derive reason from pure madness. Ork technology shouldn't work. It only works because the Orks think it dose. Yet the Earth Caste was able to produce a prototype from this non-functioning lump of metal and parts.

If they can turn something that can't work, into something that can, it would only be a matter of time before they could unlock the secrets of Necron technology.
Which is the entire concept of the Tau, the rising treat.

 Kain wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
*snip*
Only because of the Mechanicum's insistence on 'replication' as opposed to 'innovation'. And the effects are otherwise similar.

Well it's more because the Orks were made by the Old Ones to fight a war on a scale that makes the Horus Heresy seem like a schoolyard brawl next to world War 2.

Sure the Orks, Hrud, Umbra, Eldar, Slann, Jokaero and co all lost (the old ones aren't breathing anymore) but you don't want to half ass your warrior races in the face of a fully united C'tan backed Necrontyr empire.

Fair enough

I have to admit the Imperium cannot defeat the Eldar Empire at its height, but the DAoT Humans did give them a good run for their money, given the passive coercion of information from the imprisoned Void Dragon on Mars.

Even at their height the Eldar were a pale shadow of the Old One's domain. Not that they cared, because hey; 60 million year long orgy!

Remember what came of it? "Mazel Tov! It's a...OH MY GOD! HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"



Imperial Archeologist: What those space elves were thinking, I don't even...

 Nilok wrote:
Ork technology shouldn't work. It only works because the Orks think it dose. Yet the Earth Caste was able to produce a prototype from this non-functioning lump of metal and parts.

What are you talking about? Commissar Cain has since demonstrated that is nonsense. Ork technology is perfectly capable of functioning on its own.

Basic examples of ork tech are functional although significantly more unreliable in human hands. More esoteric examples of Ork technology though tend to work on principles the AdMech finds to be annoyingly hard to ascertain.

Those Old Ones are still trolling people even after being dead since the Dinosaurs.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
Ork technology shouldn't work. It only works because the Orks think it dose. Yet the Earth Caste was able to produce a prototype from this non-functioning lump of metal and parts.

What are you talking about? Commissar Cain has since demonstrated that is nonsense. Ork technology is perfectly capable of functioning on its own.

From everything I have read about, most Ork technology doesn't really work. The Orks believe it works, using a gestalt psychic field (Waaagh!), it just dose. Most Ork guns don't have the internal part to function, lacking firing pins, ammo, or even detonating on use when a poor Guardsmen tried to use one after a battle.

Unless they they retconned that in their 4e codex, it should still be the same since more recent codexes reference it (Tau). Commissar Cain may have found some Ork tech that worked, or the Orks nearby thought it should work, and it did. Or the book forgot about some fluff, wouldn't be surprised with some of GW's other materal.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Waaagh!

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ork#Ork_Technology

One thing that seems to have slipped people's minds when comparing Necron, Eldar and Ork tech with Tau's... yes, they are millions of years ahead, but they are also millions of years older. The reason Tau technology is viewed as incredibly advanced and a real threat to the other factions is because it is incredibly advanced for a race that is still so young. They are catching up. Fast. Despite their young and fragile state, they have contended with all the other major players and have lived on. They are already in a position to both defend their fledgling empire and take more ground to boot. And they're only really just starting to pop up on the galactic radar. By the time the others realise just how much of a threat they are, it'll be too late because they'll be even more advanced and just as capable to handle what gets thrown their way. The relationship they share with the rest of the galaxy is one of mutual escalation.

 Anfauglir wrote:
One thing that seems to have slipped people's minds when comparing Necron, Eldar and Ork tech with Tau's... yes, they are millions of years ahead, but they are also millions of years older. The reason Tau technology is viewed as incredibly advanced and a real threat to the other factions is because it is incredibly advanced for a race that is still so young. They are catching up. Fast. Despite their young and fragile state, they have contended with all the other major players and have lived on. They are already in a position to both defend their fledgling empire and take more ground to boot. And they're only really just starting to pop up on the galactic radar. By the time the others realise just how much of a threat they are, it'll be too late because they'll be even more advanced and just as capable to handle what gets thrown their way. The relationship they share with the rest of the galaxy is one of mutual escalation.

You're comparing the Tau to a race that fires star stuff compressed into degenerate matter (white dwarfs, neutron stars, black holes etc) at machine gun like rates as standard practice for space battles.

The Tau are bright children, the Necrons are gods.

I'm gonna pitch in here to the original question. Tau v crusade. Any future crusade would not go the way of the Damocles, the Tau have since made many advancements to their military, better ships, riptides etc. But one notable piece of kit which I believe would turn the tide of any ground campaign.

The Remora Drone Fighter.
Stealth Technology, seeker missiles, unmanned, mass produced.
In one swoop they have attained the capacity launch on demand stealth airstrikes and likely numerical superiority.

Game rules state only a couple of vessels can be controlled by a single aircraft. But I'm willing to bet that a Sept has a global coverage network and a central control.

So let's assume the imperialist come with enough air assets to counter the drones, I'd still give advantage Tau. Why? Because their installations are defended by seeking aerial mines. It is no simple matter to silence Tau surface to orbit ion cannons and rail guns.

With aerial dominance I would expect the Imperium to be extremely hard pressed on the ground. Moving armoured formations and vehicles. The assault would be slow at least and that works to the Taus advantage.

 Kain wrote:
You're comparing the Tau to a race that fires star stuff compressed into degenerate matter (white dwarfs, neutron stars, black holes etc) at machine gun like rates as standard practice for space battles.

The Tau are bright children, the Necrons are gods.

Okay. Firstly, you're slightly over-egging the Necros (and have been throughout the topic). It's fine to indulge in some of the colourfully written uber-fluff that comes as standard fare for each faction, it's another to start leaning on it to over-egg the potency of said faction in the face of comparable debate. If we were to take all of the uber-fluff as written, then each of the factions will have already conquered the galaxy many times over by now. Necrons are wannabie Gods. They fancied themselves Gods, played at being Gods. Look how well that turned out. Secondly, my point seems to have sailed plainly over your head, as your response still caters to the mistake I already pointed out. You're comparing a race that has had millions of years of a head start on most of the current galaxy to another which, by comparison, have taken their first few baby-steps and just moved onto solids. And yet, are already capable of contending with the other major factions. The Necrons current shadow of their former selves sit tidily on top of millions of years of advancement and evolution. The Tau have arrived where they are in mere thousands. Imagine where they'd be with a million under their belt...

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Kain wrote:
You're comparing the Tau to a race that fires star stuff compressed into degenerate matter (white dwarfs, neutron stars, black holes etc) at machine gun like rates as standard practice for space battles.

The Tau are bright children, the Necrons are gods.

Okay. Firstly, you're slightly over-egging the Necros (and have been throughout the topic). It's fine to indulge in some of the colourfully written uber-fluff that comes as standard fare for each faction, it's another to start leaning on it to over-egg the potency of said faction in the face of comparable debate. If we were to take all of the uber-fluff as written, then each of the factions will have already conquered the galaxy many times over by now. Necrons are wannabie Gods. They fancied themselves Gods, played at being Gods. Look how well that turned out. Secondly, my point seems to have sailed plainly over your head, as your response still caters to the mistake I already pointed out. You're comparing a race that has had millions of years of a head start on most of the current galaxy to another which, by comparison, have taken their first few baby-steps and just moved onto solids. And yet, are already capable of contending with the other major factions. The Necrons current shadow of their former selves sit tidily on top of millions of years of advancement and evolution. The Tau have arrived where they are in mere thousands. Imagine where they'd be with a million under their belt...

The Necrons fired compressed degenerate matter in IA12 which utterly gutted an Imperial Fleet. They are also continually advancing their technology via their Crypteks, also in IA12. They utilized weapons that were described as "universal" in scale, and can destroy every single star in the galaxy by flicking a switch. Their most basic gun can destroy the most advanced tank. They fought a war on a scale so great that the Tau would not be noticeable in it and won, and then betrayed their own allies and beat them too.


The Tau can advance their tech? So can the Necrons. The Tau are a credible threat in space? The Imperium is not even a credible threat to the Necron space fleets. The Tau can conquer some planets? The Necrons conquered an entire sector with just two million warriors. The Tau have FTL? The Necrons can just channel a supernova into the warp and feth up everyone's FTL but theirs and the Tyranids because guess what? The Necrons have Inertialess FTL drives again.

A single dynasty on the scale of the Maynarchs could wipe out the Tau Empire overnight.

TL;DR Read IA freaking 12.

Cry some more fanboy.

Heck a good Chaos assault could destroy the Tau Empire, or a serious Tyranid hive fleet, or a good enough Waaagh since the Tau are losing the War of Dakka.

The Tau, the Imperium, and the Eldar will die, leaving only endless misery and carnage and suffering until the galaxy dies screaming before being silenced once and for all in an apocalyptic fit of violence between the Orks, necrons, tyranids, and Chaos. And whomever wins will leave nothing but death and destruction in their wake as all hope perishes once and for all.

The idea of the naive wide eyed idealist faction winning when the setting is designed so that only the undeniably evil factions can win is absurd. And honestly, I like 40k better now that only evil can triumph.

 Eetion wrote:
I'm gonna pitch in here to the original question. Tau v crusade. Any future crusade would not go the way of the Damocles, the Tau have since made many advancements to their military, better ships, riptides etc. But one notable piece of kit which I believe would turn the tide of any ground campaign.

The Remora Drone Fighter.
Stealth Technology, seeker missiles, unmanned, mass produced.
In one swoop they have attained the capacity launch on demand stealth airstrikes and likely numerical superiority.

Game rules state only a couple of vessels can be controlled by a single aircraft. But I'm willing to bet that a Sept has a global coverage network and a central control.

So let's assume the imperialist come with enough air assets to counter the drones, I'd still give advantage Tau. Why? Because their installations are defended by seeking aerial mines. It is no simple matter to silence Tau surface to orbit ion cannons and rail guns.

With aerial dominance I would expect the Imperium to be extremely hard pressed on the ground. Moving armoured formations and vehicles. The assault would be slow at least and that works to the Taus advantage.

God help them if they start producing more Tiger sharks as well in massive quantity, or just stick stealth tech on all of there war gear.
they just need to keep quite, and produce in secret as the rest of the galaxy fights amongst them selves.

 Desubot wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
I'm gonna pitch in here to the original question. Tau v crusade. Any future crusade would not go the way of the Damocles, the Tau have since made many advancements to their military, better ships, riptides etc. But one notable piece of kit which I believe would turn the tide of any ground campaign.

The Remora Drone Fighter.
Stealth Technology, seeker missiles, unmanned, mass produced.
In one swoop they have attained the capacity launch on demand stealth airstrikes and likely numerical superiority.

Game rules state only a couple of vessels can be controlled by a single aircraft. But I'm willing to bet that a Sept has a global coverage network and a central control.

So let's assume the imperialist come with enough air assets to counter the drones, I'd still give advantage Tau. Why? Because their installations are defended by seeking aerial mines. It is no simple matter to silence Tau surface to orbit ion cannons and rail guns.

With aerial dominance I would expect the Imperium to be extremely hard pressed on the ground. Moving armoured formations and vehicles. The assault would be slow at least and that works to the Taus advantage.

God help them if they start producing more Tiger sharks as well in massive quantity, or just stick stealth tech on all of there war gear.
they just need to keep quite, and produce in secret as the rest of the galaxy fights amongst them selves.

The Orks are coming whether they like it or not. And they're winning too.

Oh and so are the Tyranids, if there's a genestealer cult on any Tau planet, the Tyranids will come.

And Chaos does whatever Chaos wants.

And some Necron Dynasty may decide to get the Tau off their lawn.

 Kain wrote:
The Necrons *snip*

*sigh* And you continue to utterly miss the point. It's like talking to a broken record.

A single dynasty on the scale of the Maynarchs could wipe out the Tau Empire overnight.

Heck a good Chaos assault could destroy the Tau Empire, or a serious Tyranid hive fleet, or a good enough Waaagh since the Tau are losing the War of Dakka.

Hmm, indeed. And the Orks could unite and bury the stars in a green tide... the Tyrannids could arrive wholesale and devour the galaxy... the Emperor could return, revive all living Primarchs, recall/find the lost two and usher in a second Golden Age for the IoM... yadda yadda yadda. Don't speak to me in hypotheticals and ifs and maybes in an attempt to galvanise your own fanboyisms into some state of increased relevance or fact. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. We can present fluff information on an equal footing, and we can hypothesise about our chosen factions uber-ness filled future exploits on an equal footing. We do it on that basis or not at all. Simple as that.

TL;DR Read IA freaking 12.

Cry some more fanboy.

Lol, excuse me? First, IA "freaking" 12 isn't the be-all and end-all of 40k fluff. Just because it's FW latest contribution (key word) to the setting, and happens to feature a faction you are clearly quite, quite taken with, it doesn't steamroll over and erradicate all the other codices and rulebooks etc. Sorry, but once more, it doesn't work that way. Secondly, projection will do you no good here. Drop it at the dakka doorway. Again, we will debate on an equal footing in a mature manner, or not at all. Simple as that.

 Kain wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
I'm gonna pitch in here to the original question. Tau v crusade. Any future crusade would not go the way of the Damocles, the Tau have since made many advancements to their military, better ships, riptides etc. But one notable piece of kit which I believe would turn the tide of any ground campaign.

The Remora Drone Fighter.
Stealth Technology, seeker missiles, unmanned, mass produced.
In one swoop they have attained the capacity launch on demand stealth airstrikes and likely numerical superiority.

Game rules state only a couple of vessels can be controlled by a single aircraft. But I'm willing to bet that a Sept has a global coverage network and a central control.

So let's assume the imperialist come with enough air assets to counter the drones, I'd still give advantage Tau. Why? Because their installations are defended by seeking aerial mines. It is no simple matter to silence Tau surface to orbit ion cannons and rail guns.

With aerial dominance I would expect the Imperium to be extremely hard pressed on the ground. Moving armoured formations and vehicles. The assault would be slow at least and that works to the Taus advantage.

God help them if they start producing more Tiger sharks as well in massive quantity, or just stick stealth tech on all of there war gear.
they just need to keep quite, and produce in secret as the rest of the galaxy fights amongst them selves.

The Orks are coming whether they like it or not. And they're winning too.

Oh and so are the Tyranids, if there's a genestealer cult on any Tau planet, the Tyranids will come.

And Chaos does whatever Chaos wants.

And some Necron Dynasty may decide to get the Tau off their lawn.

I though this was a discussion about a crusade.

if it is just a general statement then
chaos indeed will do what chaos wants
Nids will do what nids do
orks will ork
necrons could just celestial orary every single star in the galaxy but that would be an incredibly boring story and should be ignored.

good job guys 40k is done lets pack it up and play a new game.

 Kain wrote:
The Tau, the Imperium, and the Eldar will die, leaving only endless misery and carnage and suffering until the galaxy dies screaming before being silenced once and for all in an apocalyptic fit of violence between the Orks, necrons, tyranids, and Chaos. And whomever wins will leave nothing but death and destruction in their wake as all hope perishes once and for all.

The idea of the naive wide eyed idealist faction winning when the setting is designed so that only the undeniably evil factions can win is absurd. And honestly, I like 40k better now that only evil can triumph.

Ah, I think I now see what your problem is. You seem to have conjured up your own, personal interpretation of the current setting, added your own, personal projections of its future outcome, taking some substantial artistic liberties with the IP, if I do say so myself, and actually supplanted it in your mind as the actual, official setting.

Well done.

 Desubot wrote:
I though this was a discussion about a crusade.

You're right. This tangent has run it's course, I think. Time to get back on topic.

good job guys 40k is done lets pack it up and play a new game.

Indeed.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The Necrons *snip*

*sigh* And you continue to utterly miss the point. It's like talking to a broken record.

A single dynasty on the scale of the Maynarchs could wipe out the Tau Empire overnight.

Heck a good Chaos assault could destroy the Tau Empire, or a serious Tyranid hive fleet, or a good enough Waaagh since the Tau are losing the War of Dakka.

Hmm, indeed. And the Orks could unite and bury the stars in a green tide... the Tyrannids could arrive wholesale and devour the galaxy... the Emperor could return, revive all living Primarchs, recall/find the lost two and usher in a second Golden Age for the IoM... yadda yadda yadda. Don't speak to me in hypotheticals and ifs and maybes in an attempt to galvanise your own fanboyisms into some state of increased relevance or fact. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. We can present fluff information on an equal footing, and we can hypothesise about our chosen factions uber-ness filled future exploits on an equal footing. We do it on that basis or not at all. Simple as that.

TL;DR Read IA freaking 12.

Cry some more fanboy.

Lol, excuse me? First, IA "freaking" 12 isn't the be-all and end-all of 40k fluff. Just because it's FW latest contribution (key word) to the setting, and happens to feature a faction you are clearly quite, quite taken with, it doesn't steamroll over and erradicate all the other codices and rulebooks etc. Sorry, but once more, it doesn't work that way. Secondly, projection will do you no good here. Drop it at the dakka doorway. Again, we will debate on an equal footing in a mature manner, or not at all. Simple as that.

And please tell me how the Tau intend to survive when they're losing the War of Dakka, having already lost three septs and are noted as incapable of pushing the orks back while more and more orks are coming in to push forward.

Or how a single minor hive fleet almost destroyed the entire Tau empire.

Or how the Tau were helpless when the Necrons decided to play mars attacks during Hive Fleet Gorgon's rampage.

Or how a minor crusade nearly shattered the Tau Empire.

Or how the Tau barely even know the threat of Chaos and would likely take massive losses to so much as a single grand company and it's hanger's on worth of chaos space marines, much less a black crusade.

The only faction that can't squeeze out the Tau in a slugging match is the Eldar, who seem to have at the very least created the Ethereal caste in xenology and have repeatedly expressed an unusual amount of interest in their development. And even the Eldar themselves acknowledge that Eldarkind is doomed, so that help is temporary at best.

The Tau do not have a win condition, neither do the Eldar (of any variety). The Imperium's win button is incredibly uncertain (the Emperor might be reborn if the throne fails, or a new eye of terror may open up), meaning only the Orks, Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids hold a win button.

If you want a setting where the good guys can win, go play star trek online or something, 40k is always evil all the time.

 Kain wrote:





The Tau do not have a win condition, neither do the Eldar (of any variety). The Imperium's win button is incredibly uncertain (the Emperor might be reborn if the throne fails, or a new eye of terror may open up), meaning only the Orks, Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids hold a win button.

If you want a setting where the good guys can win, go play star trek online or something, 40k is always evil all the time.

No.

Evil auto - looses. To 100%. Every single setting

Orks? Wouldn't press the right button. They'd press every button...so more like a nice big bang..
Chaos? doesn't realize the laughing god swapped the "i win" and the "admit defeat" buttons so...
Tyranids? Stuck in the monster/villain corner of cinematic edition 40k. You know what button they will find?
Necrons? Not united and still booting from disk. They have to have several things going in their favor before the win button is available to them. Plus, Necrons aren't part of the 'evil' club.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Kain wrote:





The Tau do not have a win condition, neither do the Eldar (of any variety). The Imperium's win button is incredibly uncertain (the Emperor might be reborn if the throne fails, or a new eye of terror may open up), meaning only the Orks, Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids hold a win button.

If you want a setting where the good guys can win, go play star trek online or something, 40k is always evil all the time.

No.

Evil auto - looses. To 100%. Every single setting

Orks? Wouldn't press the right button. They'd press every button...so more like a nice big bang..
Chaos? doesn't realize the laughing god swapped the "i win" and the "admit defeat" buttons so...
Tyranids? Stuck in the monster/villain corner of cinematic edition 40k. You know what button they will find?
Necrons? Not united and still booting from disk. They have to have several things going in their favor before the win button is available to them. Plus, Necrons aren't part of the 'evil' club.

You're grasping at straws here. The Evil factions simply have so many more resources that victory for them is inevitable.

All the "good" factions are in decay or are so badly outmatched by the Evil factions that it's actually kind of funny.

And the Necrons are in fact evil. They at best want to Enslave us, and at worst want to Exterminate us.

Also, do you want a list of times where the bad guy won?

 Kain wrote:



You're grasping at straws here. The Evil factions simply have so many more resources that victory for them is inevitable.

All the "good" factions are in decay or are so badly outmatched by the Evil factions that it's actually kind of funny.

And the Necrons are in fact evil. They at best want to Enslave us, and at worst want to Exterminate us.

Also, do you want a list of times where the bad guy won?

Yes, I would like to see your list of settings where "evil" has won. To be precise, won the setting, not some battle here or there.


Secondly, Necrons are just themselves. They got Vassals now. Call them feudal, or space undead with an egyptian touch.
Evil? ... doesn't compute ...
Thirdly, good and evil doesn't fit 40k. Seen the ."x..is the good guys" threads? We are better off without those IMO.

In cinematic 40.000 there is only xplosions, FX and it all set up to 5 mins before 12.00.

No finecosted, limited and direct only win button.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Kain wrote:



You're grasping at straws here. The Evil factions simply have so many more resources that victory for them is inevitable.

All the "good" factions are in decay or are so badly outmatched by the Evil factions that it's actually kind of funny.

And the Necrons are in fact evil. They at best want to Enslave us, and at worst want to Exterminate us.

Also, do you want a list of times where the bad guy won?

Yes, I would like to see your list of settings where "evil" has won. To be precise, won the setting, not some battle here or there.


Secondly, Necrons are just themselves. They got Vassals now. Call them feudal, or space undead with an egyptian touch.
Evil? ... doesn't compute ...
Thirdly, good and evil doesn't fit 40k. Seen the ."x..is the good guys" threads? We are better off without those IMO.

In cinematic 40.000 there is only xplosions, FX and it all set up to 5 mins before 12.00.

No finecosted, limited and direct only win button.

Feudalism is an evil system that disenfranchises countless individuals for the benefit of a select few. Those select few will be the necrons, while the dirty peasant other races will be pissed on at best by the Necrons or outright exterminated for the lulz by the Necrons.

They're evil through and through.

And I'm looking at things from a military perspective. The Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, and Chaos all have potentially unlimited resources, while the Tau, Imperium, and Eldar are most definitely finite and in as state of decay or insignificance. In a state of total war, the three reasonable factions cannot survive, while the four factions inmicable to the continued existence of a universe compatible with humanity living comfortably can wage war until the cows come home.

But of course you're rather blatantly trolling with your nonarguments.

As for the list; It's a trope.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBadGuyWins

 1hadhq wrote:
Evil auto - looses. To 100%. Every single setting

1.) Noone wins in 40k as it is a static setting with no progression.
2.) The Imperium of Man is quite dominant in 40k, but I wouldn't call the fascist regime "good".

What's with the good vs evil theme all of a sudden? There is no 'good' in 40k. Only bad vs worse.

Tau are growing, advancing and expanding on a rate similar to that of the expansionist Roman Republic. They started as a tiny backwards nation surrounded by far larger and more advanced Empires. Carthage, Greece at the time of Alexander the Great... Empires they had no business contending with. But you know what, they not only expanded, they advanced at such a rate they were able to overcome and defeat both empires. When Rome started its first war against Carthage they didn't even have a fleet! But after losing their first navel engagement the Romans went on to create a fleet that was able to defeat the Carthaginian fleet in an astonishingly short period of time. Rome went on to completely destroy Carthage over three wars and emerged strong enough to turn its attention to the crumbling factions that had once been the Greek empire, absorbing them peacefully when possible and crushing them mercilessly when challenged.

On the subject of the Tau, an imperial crusade may have been able to throw them back off their recently acquired colonies but it was unable to conquer even a single sept world. Furthermore, they were able to recover all their lost ground and then some in a matter of years. Since then the Tau empire has grown considerably larger, more advanced and more powerful than it was at the time of the last imperial crusade while the imperium has grown weaker and continues to stagnate. They are stretched to thin and forced onto the defensive. The tau, despite their continued difficulties with orks and tyranids are continuing to expand at a rapid rate. Its growth vs decline. While the imperium is undeniably still vastly larger they no longer have the strength to devote a powerful offensive against the tau. They are already tied up in massive wars with Armageddon, hive fleet leviathan and a massive chaos crusade. Wars they are losing ground in or at best reaching a stalemate.

Don't discount the smaller expansionist guy. History has shown he can grow to dominate and defeat far larger foes.

O'Shovah303 wrote:
Tau are growing, advancing and expanding on a rate similar to that of the expansionist Roman Republic. They started as a tiny backwards nation surrounded by far larger and more advanced Empires. Carthage, Greece at the time of Alexander the Great... Empires they had no business contending with. But you know what, they not only expanded, they advanced at such a rate they were able to overcome and defeat both empires. When Rome started its first war against Carthage they didn't even have a fleet! But after losing their first navel engagement the Romans went on to create a fleet that was able to defeat the Carthaginian fleet in an astonishingly short period of time. Rome went on to completely destroy Carthage over three wars and emerged strong enough to turn its attention to the crumbling factions that had once been the Greek empire, absorbing them peacefully when possible and crushing them mercilessly when challenged.

On the subject of the Tau, an imperial crusade may have been able to throw them back off their recently acquired colonies but it was unable to conquer even a single sept world. Furthermore, they were able to recover all their lost ground and then some in a matter of years. Since then the Tau empire has grown considerably larger, more advanced and more powerful than it was at the time of the last imperial crusade while the imperium has grown weaker and continues to stagnate. They are stretched to thin and forced onto the defensive. The tau, despite their continued difficulties with orks and tyranids are continuing to expand at a rapid rate. Its growth vs decline. While the imperium is undeniably still vastly larger they no longer have the strength to devote a powerful offensive against the tau. They are already tied up in massive wars with Armageddon, hive fleet leviathan and a massive chaos crusade. Wars they are losing ground in or at best reaching a stalemate.

Don't discount the smaller expansionist guy. History has shown he can grow to dominate and defeat far larger foes.

And what's stopping the four big bad factions from turning their attentions to the Tau?

The Tau are already losing the War of Dakka to the Orks as more and more Orks are coming in to smash blueskin face.

But the Eldar may be the Tau's saving grace. Xenology all but states out loud that at the very least, the Eldar gave the Tau the Ethereal caste. I'm not sure if the Eldar will let their pet project die out before they're ready for whatever plan they have in store.

You can at least, count on the Eldar throwing one last gambit to try and reset the table in their favor and the Tau are prime pawns for the pointy ears' game..

O'Shovah303 wrote:
Tau are growing, advancing and expanding on a rate similar to that of the expansionist Roman Republic. They started as a tiny backwards nation surrounded by far larger and more advanced Empires. Carthage, Greece at the time of Alexander the Great... Empires they had no business contending with. But you know what, they not only expanded, they advanced at such a rate they were able to overcome and defeat both empires. When Rome started its first war against Carthage they didn't even have a fleet! But after losing their first navel engagement the Romans went on to create a fleet that was able to defeat the Carthaginian fleet in an astonishingly short period of time. Rome went on to completely destroy Carthage over three wars and emerged strong enough to turn its attention to the crumbling factions that had once been the Greek empire, absorbing them peacefully when possible and crushing them mercilessly when challenged.

On the subject of the Tau, an imperial crusade may have been able to throw them back off their recently acquired colonies but it was unable to conquer even a single sept world. Furthermore, they were able to recover all their lost ground and then some in a matter of years. Since then the Tau empire has grown considerably larger, more advanced and more powerful than it was at the time of the last imperial crusade while the imperium has grown weaker and continues to stagnate. They are stretched to thin and forced onto the defensive. The tau, despite their continued difficulties with orks and tyranids are continuing to expand at a rapid rate. Its growth vs decline. While the imperium is undeniably still vastly larger they no longer have the strength to devote a powerful offensive against the tau. They are already tied up in massive wars with Armageddon, hive fleet leviathan and a massive chaos crusade. Wars they are losing ground in or at best reaching a stalemate.

Don't discount the smaller expansionist guy. History has shown he can grow to dominate and defeat far larger foes.

That is a VERY BAD idea.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?96321-Rise-of-the-Tau

Why is this still going on? Kroothawk pointed out the fallacy of these kinds of arguments...

This game isn't a war simulator. It has no forward progression. It's a setting, not a storyline. None of these factions will ever go away, ever get completely wiped out from the product line, ever stop being a set of toy soldiers you can buy to play pretendy fun-time wargames with.

The irony of the setting is that everyone cheers for their favorite faction who, regardless of which one they are, are pretty nasty sorts of people from an objective viewpoint.

Isn't Xenology written as imperium propaganda written by ordos xenos?

How accurate is it? (i dont actually have the book)


The only thing the Tau has to do is seriously just stay quite, manage there enemies and stay off the radar as they pump out more and more forces.

They are very adaptable and given enough time can eventually deal with orks or whatever.
Heck even within the whatever 1000 years of there existence they now have tech to blow up stars (albeit very rudimentary) as long as they lay low and get the opportunity to adapt they can make one heck of a comeback i believe.

But if your going to bring out the what if everyone go there gak together card, necrons could just rage quit the universe as previously stated, orks and nids are supposed to be in other galexys iirc though so meh.

 Desubot wrote:
Isn't Xenology written as imperium propaganda written by ordos xenos?

How accurate is it? (i dont actually have the book)


The only thing the Tau has to do is seriously just stay quite, manage there enemies and stay off the radar as they pump out more and more forces.

They are very adaptable and given enough time can eventually deal with orks or whatever.
Heck even within the whatever 1000 years of there existence they now have tech to blow up stars (albeit very rudimentary) as long as they lay low and get the opportunity to adapt they can make one heck of a comeback i believe.

But if your going to bring out the what if everyone go there gak together card, necrons could just rage quit the universe as previously stated, orks and nids are supposed to be in other galexys iirc though so meh.

Xenology is written from the viewpoint of an Ordo Xenos inquisitor investigating a radical inquisitor who was actually a Necron Lord who infiltrated the Ordo Xenos via shapeshifting and conducts interviews with an increasingly deranged adeptus mechanicus tech priest and goes over the Necron Lord's studies and analysis of other species and various in universe reports.

I believe the tidbit about the Tau actually comes from one of the Eldar or ancient Tau legends, not sure.

But the reports were made and compiled by a Necron, not a human.

The Puritan inquisitor does put some of his own thoughts too, as do the interviewed Xenos and the Tech priest.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Why is this still going on? Kroothawk pointed out the fallacy of these kinds of arguments...

This game isn't a war simulator. It has no forward progression. It's a setting, not a storyline. None of these factions will ever go away, ever get completely wiped out from the product line, ever stop being a set of toy soldiers you can buy to play pretendy fun-time wargames with.

The irony of the setting is that everyone cheers for their favorite faction who, regardless of which one they are, are pretty nasty sorts of people from an objective viewpoint.

Son, I once frequented Spacebattles.com, we take our discussions of who can beat up who and how many megagigateraomgwtfbbq tons something shoots seriously.