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Something like what Ouze and Relapse mention happens in the military. Those individual(s) will either be charged or go through grinder of an investigation.

Personally I've never found actual military veterans to be bad LEOs.

I have found however a whole metric crap ton of civilians who try and overcompensate by pretending they were in the military by attempting to imitate what they think being in the military was like.

That usually ends in making real vets look bad. Just like when some crazy person goes nuts, and the press finds out he was ex-mil. OMG!?!?! It must have been the military that made him like that.

Couldn't have been because he was nuts. Noooooo.

Relapse wrote:

Janet Reno had a couple or more of these events where innocent people got killed. The whole Gonzolaz affair was a poorly handled, needless use of special units and could have easily been another Ruby Ridge or Waco.

[emphasis mine]

You mean where SWAT equivalents from the ATF attempted a raid and were repulsed by military grade automatic weapons leading to the needless deaths of 4 agents? I don't think that's the example you want to be using (since in my mind that incident was the result of insufficient force, rather than inappropriate use of overwhelming force). I won't argue about the other incident though.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Janet Reno had a couple or more of these events where innocent people got killed. The whole Gonzolaz affair was a poorly handled, needless use of special units and could have easily been another Ruby Ridge or Waco.

[emphasis mine]

You mean where SWAT equivalents from the ATF attempted a raid and were repulsed by military grade automatic weapons leading to the needless deaths of 4 agents? I don't think that's the example you want to be using (since in my mind that incident was
the result of insufficient force, rather than inappropriate use of overwhelming force). I won't argue about the other incident though.

Don't forget all the kids at Waco that got burned to death and suffocated as a result of ATF activity there. The kicker there whas that some in the government was proposing a memorial statue of an ATF agent hand in hand with a couple of kids. Needless to say, that idea didn't go far.

Well, we're getting pretty afield of the OP now.

There is a story I wanted to link here but wound up not. It was a few days before this one got posted, and in fact excerpts the same book. If you're intertested in the premise of thise thread, you might like to read the article. You can find it here. I found it to be a fascinating read, but a very long one.

If anyone believes that any one human being needs 18 plants to self-medicate, they're kidding themselves. He was obviously selling it, one mature plant can yield several _pounds_ of weed, which would take one person years to consume on their own if it were for medicinal use. If it were a single plant, or even two, I'd believe it.

I'm sure the authorities will know this though and raise it in court, it's just writing attempting to make THE EVIL DUMB UNEDUCATED OVERPOWERED COPS LOOK BAD. Keep in mind these same idiot writers and editors would dial 9-1-1 so fast they'd get fething phone burn if they ever ran into trouble.

Dang....I just google fu "How many SWAT raids are conducted on vets.....I seriously think I need to put a sign on my door saying I am Vet. Please yell loudly announcing who you are since I'm a bit death due to combat actions......seriously though....they trying to justify SWAT existence by having them serve on misdeameaner(sp) and other enforcement of Law not concerning them.....what a waste of money....

Seems a good organization forming to get a handle of the to motivated and dedicated LEO's from screwing the Hell up

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2011/05/21/oath-keepers-to-rally-in-tucson-on-memorial-day-over-death-of-young-marine-veteran/


I'm tempted to take Crimson off ignore...

 Ouze wrote:
Well, we're getting pretty afield of the OP now.

There is a story I wanted to link here but wound up not. It was a few days before this one got posted, and in fact excerpts the same book. If you're intertested in the premise of thise thread, you might like to read the article. You can find it here. I found it to be a fascinating read, but a very long one.

Wow, just wow. I'm going to explore this a bit more, thanks, Ouze.

Ouze wrote:Well, we're getting pretty afield of the OP now.

There is a story I wanted to link here but wound up not. It was a few days before this one got posted, and in fact excerpts the same book. If you're intertested in the premise of thise thread, you might like to read the article. You can find it here. I found it to be a fascinating read, but a very long one.

Yeah, I caught that a few days back, too. I honestly lament for the rare individuals who seem to appreciate the idea that crimes are solved with one's mind, and not with one's firearms.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
If anyone believes that any one human being needs 18 plants to self-medicate, they're kidding themselves. He was obviously selling it, one mature plant can yield several _pounds_ of weed, which would take one person years to consume on their own if it were for medicinal use. If it were a single plant, or even two, I'd believe it.

I'm sure the authorities will know this though and raise it in court, it's just writing attempting to make THE EVIL DUMB UNEDUCATED OVERPOWERED COPS LOOK BAD. Keep in mind these same idiot writers and editors would dial 9-1-1 so fast they'd get fething phone burn if they ever ran into trouble.

Yup, thats a major problem. People having not enough plants to be arrested right then and there for intent to sell, but far far too many for personal use.

Then there's the fethers that get all their friends medical licenses and then grow a hundred or so plants "together".


If we are going to legalize weed, it should be no more than one or 2 plants per household. And anyone caught with more than that number of plants gets sacked for the whole 9 yards, and has their medical license suspended.

Plus we need to stop handing out medical licenses like they're candy. No, a little arthritic pain or headaches are not good reasons. You need to have had other painkillers prove ineffective and be in a massive amount of pain.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Ouze wrote:Well, we're getting pretty afield of the OP now.

There is a story I wanted to link here but wound up not. It was a few days before this one got posted, and in fact excerpts the same book. If you're intertested in the premise of thise thread, you might like to read the article. You can find it here. I found it to be a fascinating read, but a very long one.

Yeah, I caught that a few days back, too. I honestly lament for the rare individuals who seem to appreciate the idea that crimes are solved with one's mind, and not with one's firearms.

Blame the fact that the populace at large presents agencies do not want justice, but rather vengeance.
Blame the fact that police departments are by and large underfunded, or with departmental priorities being funneled towards 'show of force' methods like decking out SWAT teams in full digital camo and nonsense policies like cracking down on marijuana sales.
Blame the fact that most police departments now are operating on the same kind of basis that sales reps at department stores are, where numbers of 'customers served' are the means by which the department judges their officers.

Actually.... I blame the federal government, although there are many villains. In this particular case after 9/11 the feds were throwing money at local law enforcement left and right which led, of course, to nonsense like sheriff's offices buying APC's; as if they were touring Afghanistan instead of Phoenix.

They sent a SWAT team to sort out an unpaid student loan?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
The home owner did OK though - he hit 7/31 while being hosed.

Probably should've verified the targets first.

Yeah, the federal government throwing money to any "counterterrorism programs" was definitely a mistake.

You all be safer if they let the Marines and Army conducted SWAT operation.....better ingrained training, less expenditure of bulltets, 110% positive we will announce ourselves...we do love to hear the sound of our voice. We have better body armor because we actually trust our battle armor....gives the chucklehead more time to recognize and crap his pants when he see's us.....besides we also throw flashbangs through the windows to. We want info not a body...incapacitate and alive perp yields better intell

LEO "Hey we have a APC you can use."
NCOIC "Pfftt keep that PoS. We got this and we're adverse to screwing the pooch"

Mind you if its a value target...the first three trigger pullers has Mossberg's loaded with beanbags.

I'm just more saddened that they used these types of tactics for a pot grower. Those 16 plants were surely going to ruin the city.

I read these articles about the "militarization of police" "paramilitary police force" and now the new catch phrase "Warrior Cop" and I wonder where have the authors been for the past 25ish years.

I think it was back in 89 that Nancy Reagan was on site at a raid on a crack house, complete with SWAT (and APC if memory serves correct, think they had to ram the gate). There was the former first lady of the United States on the frontlines watching about a dozen or so addicts get raided and manhandled over a gram of cocaine. Media was called in ahead of time, then delayed when the addicts dealer was a no show, then the op was handled with Nancy Reagan in a mobile command center near the crack house. Addicts arrested...

Basically a staged show of force for 'Just Say No' Nancy to stay relevant after Ronald finished off his terms and for the police commisioner who oversaw the op to score points politically. These needless and overwhelmingly forceful raids on the victims of the "Drug War" and other non threatening perps have been going on for decades. They are used to justify budgets (use the training/equipment/funding or lose it) as political tools (I need voters to see I'm tough on crime, call the Comish and get me a photo op) and as poor substitutes to real police work.

Not to take away from any of the tragedies of the SWAT raids that are linked or being discussed in this thread, but the first time I personally saw any mention in the media of "police militarization" was when that iconic photo during those Occupy movements started. That one where the fat cop in full on riot control armor was nonchalantly pepper spraying those student protesters. He became a meme, I think. Once pictures of white kids being the victims of "excessive force" (pepper spray!?) by a dude in SWAT regalia did these op-eds and "investigative reports" about police militarization start to show up.

Fact is, that although its good that this discussion is taking place, and reforms need to happen, it didn't start until middle class America got just a small slice of the policing thats been going on in low income, high crime areas for decades.

Edit: Sorry for the rant and I'm not sure what my point was, I just get annoyed when people think this is a new phenomena in modern American policing.

 NELS1031 wrote:
Fact is, that although its good that this discussion is taking place, and reforms need to happen, it didn't start until middle class America got just a small slice of the policing thats been going on in low income, high crime areas for decades.

Well, of course. Ultimately policing, and how it's run, is a political concern, and low income people simply don't matter politically, outside of token lip service.

And although you moved the bar back to the Reagan era, I think it might more accurately be moved back a few notches to the Nixon era, when the "war on drugs" started. It's certainly escalated more swiftly under certain administrations, but I think that's where it probably has it's strongest roots.

But by either definition I'd say this is indeed a recent trend, depending on how flexible you are with "recent".

Hopefully we can push back on this as a society before it starts to merge more tightly with it's natural allly - the for-profit prison industry - and becomes a full blown complex. Once you get one of those, they don't really go away.

Its funny you mention going back to Nixon, as I ranted about that the last time we had a thread about this same subject a few months back.
I thought about just copy pasting what I said last time.

Hah. I just went back and read it, and you're right, we had almost the exact same conversation except I've internalized some of what you said then.

It really shouldn't be too complicated to understand this. In a society that's awash with guns, the police are going to become increasingly nervous about executing warrants. You can make all the noise you want about cops having combat envy or whatever, but you can't get away from the fact that policeman are people, and like everyone else they try to avoid dying. And that means taking as much force and protection with them as possible when enteriny a potentially dangerous situation.

And yeah, when the cops entering with force and brandishing guns, and the people in the house might have guns of their own... well you're going to get more deaths.

You want to fix that problem... well complaining about the cops having more guns makes little sense, and any momentum you get towards that end will crap out the next time a couple of beat cops are shot entering a house.

You want to actually solve it? Well reduce the amount of guns out there, or just accept this is the price you pay for them.

 Frazzled wrote:
Not there. It defies logic. We've had plenty of cops from WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam etc. etc.

If you don't understand the impact of vets coming home from war and joining the police force, you should read about LA in the 40s and 50s. The effect there was generally positive, by the way - some undesirables got their civil rights good and properly trampled, but for a long time LA avoided the organised crime that plagued other cities like Chicago or New York. But it's basically an unavoidable reality that blokes used to acting in the pragmatic, direct way of the army enter the police and do it quite differently to folk entering the profession from a civilian background.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
And? Thats been a potential issue since 1903.
SWAT didn't get the major kickstart until the War on Drugs. No knock raids were started to try to prevent people from flushing drugs down the toilet, not a need for safety.

When thompson machine guns became somewhat common among criminals, the response of the FBI and police units in high crime cities was to get thompsons of their own, and ensure their officers knew how to use them. The arms race between police and the general population is not a new thing.

And you seem unaware that there was a long term trend up in police deaths on the job. It pretty massively changed how policing operated over the course of a few decades, until that casualty rate leveled off and finally declined. And the legacy of that is that police just don't put themselves in anywhere near as many potentially vulnerable positions as they used to, including using SWAT tactics when executing warrants that have just a small chance of going ugly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
You all be safer if they let the Marines and Army conducted SWAT operation.....better ingrained training, less expenditure of bulltets, 110% positive we will announce ourselves...we do love to hear the sound of our voice. We have better body armor because we actually trust our battle armor....gives the chucklehead more time to recognize and crap his pants when he see's us.....besides we also throw flashbangs through the windows to. We want info not a body...incapacitate and alive perp yields better intell

Is that why the Marines and Army never, ever kill innocent people accidentally?

Thanks for the article Ouze, good read so far

The puppycide aspect of the article I think is what hits home for me that full tacticool geared LEOs are treating this stuff like it's a battlefield. Particularly the lack of training being done by officers.

I mean the local leos in my town seem nice, they hang out at their community locations. We've divided my city into 4 areas in which there are 2 cops in these storefronts in an effort to increase trust between officers and residents. One is a bike officer and the other in a cruiser. And they seem like chill people and I have interacted with them before (they pulled my mom's car over while we were house hunting several years ago, as someone thought we were casing places to rob ).

Is that why the Marines and Army never, ever kill innocent people accidentally?

500lbs laser guided missile doesn't leave much evidence...we pretty much set back and watch the A10 have fun

 Jihadin wrote:
500lbs laser guided missile doesn't leave much evidence...we pretty much set back and watch the A10 have fun

Well I guess as long as the A-10 pilot shouts 'we're serving a warrant on behalf of the police' and the first cannon round hits the house's door and therefore counts and knocking it should be all good

Actually we just laser tag the door and the bomb/missile can go right through...as long as we announce ourselves through the bull horn.....lets not forget....I will have my water cannon nearby....fire and irate home owner

I don't know about warrior cops, but I do know about Axe Cop!

 rubiksnoob wrote:
I don't know about warrior cops, but I do know about Axe Cop!

I could never get into Axe Cop because I felt that it was written by an 8 yr old, and then someone told me it in fact was partially written by an 8 yr old*.


* - For those that don't know, Axe Cop's ideas and stores are hashed out by 8 yr old Malachai Nicolle, and are then translated into comic form by his older brother Ethan (who is already in the comic industry).

It's nice when the cops even advertise that they are becoming your friendly neighborhood Warriors:

I can see that 3rd Amendment being held against the cops.......