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Huge difference between what LEO do everyday on their "tactics" compare what the US Army/Marines do on their "tactics". We train constantly to avoid a "Goat Rope" situation but we do have the facilities and budget to conduct those training operations every quarter (four months) At least a four days constant training before we do a "Live Fire" training operation. Unlike LEO who meet do similar training once every six month or less. More time on the gun range then on a training facility. Since we're a bit focus on SWAT with the US military with the most training and "combat" experience in clearing a building they need to fund SWAT to go either a Marine or US army installation and get current. Vast majority of us will take a bullet (trusty body armor) then shoot a non combatant. For fear of UCMJ and Battalion and Brigade SMAJ getting a hold of you. Always put the inexperience to rear of the "stack"....also make sure which way the damn door opens (hinges) to. One time...just that one time....didn't notice the hinges outside of the door...and I'm trying to kick it in...
edit 2
Mainly what we can call upon....
Do not watch if your faint hearted...weak will....love puppies and kittens.....do not like hard rock n roll....or just don't plain like the the US military Real life combat footage of air strikes....some fire fights...Gen Mattis not kidding when he says its fun to shoot people......its a challenge
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/30 04:14:14
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
d-usa wrote: For me the problem is not that police departments have military-level hardware and tactics available for them to use. They should have all the tools available to them that they need to do their job safely and efficiently.
My problem with the "militarization" of the police has to do with the everyday tactics.
Yeah, and I think that's a fair complaint, and one I did mention in my own posts (my comment on culture and the legacy of the now in decline rate of deaths of police on duty), leading to excessive use of SWAT style tactics. But that's an issue of agency risk - the policeman doing what he can to minimise his own risk, while accepting that someone else pays for the cost of all those extra resources, and the extra risk of a SWAT raid gone wrong is mostly suffered by the home owner.
Exactly how to counter-act that is an intersting question. Oversight of police use of resources, a judicial panel or some other that reviews police use of SWAT resources or something like that?
I'm not sure. But I do know that all the talk of police having army envy and other such nonsense just gets in the way of sensible discussion of the issue.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote: I'm not sure. But I do know that all the talk of police having army envy and other such nonsense just gets in the way of sensible discussion of the issue.
Lots of things are real, but entirely useless, and even counter-productive to sensible conversation.
I mean, sure, there's probably a few guys out there who just love getting in to their SWAT gear and looking all tacticool, but as an explanation of the rise of SWAT style police operations it's a fething stupid answer, and its constant repitition makes proper discussion of the causes harder, which in turn makes discussion of actual, sensible conclusions near impossible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/30 05:40:39
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote: Lots of things are real, but entirely useless, and even counter-productive to sensible conversation.
I mean, sure, there's probably a few guys out there who just love getting in to their SWAT gear and looking all tacticool, but as an explanation of the rise of SWAT style police operations it's a fething stupid answer, and its constant repitition makes proper discussion of the causes harder, which in turn makes discussion of actual, sensible conclusions near impossible.
Quite a few.
Nobody's talking about the rise of SWAT-style police operations, because that began decades ago. We're discussing why SWAT teams are springing up in places they have no business being, and being utilized for tasks they have no business doing.
Seaward wrote: Nobody's talking about the rise of SWAT-style police operations, because that began decades ago.
Read the thread, please. The decades long trend in increasing use of SWAT style operations has been mentioned in a lot of posts.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Seaward wrote: Not in the ones attributing the current over/misuse to combat envy.
Nope, not even a little true.
“Combat envy...just combat envy”
“A bunch of walts who have played too much CoD.”
“I have found however a whole metric crap ton of civilians who try and overcompensate by pretending they were in the military by attempting to imitate what they think being in the military was like.”
You can go and find each of those quotes in this thread. And if you read them, and read the conversation surrounding them you'll find exactly zero conversation about SWAT teams popping up in unnecessary places.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
claim combat envy....just combat envy.....and stated a bit ago they need up to date training with the military.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
d-usa wrote: For me the problem is not that police departments have military-level hardware and tactics available for them to use. They should have all the tools available to them that they need to do their job safely and efficiently.
My problem with the "militarization" of the police has to do with the everyday tactics.
Officers doing community policing (patrols, traffic, community events) while looking like soldiers that are occupying a country instead of looking like police officers in their community.
The use of SWAT teams for minor warrants and use of no-knock entries and subsequent use-of-force when homeowners think they are being robbed.
Using equipment because you have it instead of because you need it.
Things like that.
Exactly that. I don't mind SWAT team stuff for dangerous situations. But you don't do kickins/bezerko to serve student loan arrest documents.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
I'm not sure. But I do know that all the talk of police having army envy and other such nonsense just gets in the way of sensible discussion of the issue.
Why? What knowledge do you actually have of police in the US again? how many interactions do you have with them on a daily basis?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/30 16:03:54
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Because surely there is a better way to take a 95 y/o senior to the hospital than in a body bag.
M.
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
Frazzled wrote: Why? What knowledge do you actually have of police in the US again? how many interactions do you have with them on a daily basis?
More knowledge than you, as we can observe from the points of US policing history I've been trying to explain to you during the thread.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Frazzled wrote: Why? What knowledge do you actually have of police in the US again? how many interactions do you have with them on a daily basis?
More knowledge than you, as we can observe from the points of US policing history I've been trying to explain to you during the thread.
???
Mmm...wife worked for PD. I have friends in PD. You have...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I'm going with....
"Cops can't seem to stop shooting angle...."
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Two weeks ago, Schulze was working in the barn at the Society of St. Francis on the Kenosha-Illinois border when a swarm of squad cars arrived and officers unloaded with a search warrant.
"(There were) nine DNR agents and four deputy sheriffs, and they were all armed to the teeth," Schulze said.
Could you have made a phone call before showing up, I mean, that's a lot of resources," WISN 12 News investigative reporter Colleen Henry asked.
"If a sheriff's department is going in to do a search warrant on a drug bust, they don't call them and ask them to voluntarily surrender their marijuana or whatever drug that they have before they show up," Niemeyer said,
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I really like the part where the rescue had already made arrangements to transport the fawn to a wildlife shelter the next day.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/01 16:26:01
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Whats funny is TBone's face is almost completely white now.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: Mmm...wife worked for PD. I have friends in PD. You have...
Actual fething knowledge of the history of how this came to be. Which is what actually matters.
Now, I'm not dismissing the value of knowing someone with direct experience, but when you're oblivious to the history of policing as you appear to be given your comments in this thread, then there really can't be too much stock put in your ability to place those insights given to you in their proper context.
Which is why you've missed entirely the importance of rising police deaths on duty in driving much of this.
But hey, you live there, and that's way more important.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
I found it odd the other day when the local SWAT team showed up at the apartment building down the road. My town has 25K people in it, do we really need our own SWAT team? I guess that extra Homeland Security Money had to be used somehow.
The local paper referred to the incident in the Police Blotter. Possible Drug Activity, 1 suspect arrested.
Really.
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Real life combat footage of air strikes....some fire fights...
... 
