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 Squigsquasher wrote:

BrotherChaplinMalus wrote:
One of the appealing things in Masonary is that it takes all men reguardless of creed, race, or political views and all these things are to be sat aside once lodge has opened

And yet they do not accept women of any race, creed or political view.

The Wiki article goes a bit into who gets accepted.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

And yet they do not accept women of any race, creed or political view.

So?

It's not a public institution, so they don't have to allow anyone they dont like in. Don't like it? don't join up then. As usual, it really is that easy.

BrotherChaplinMalus wrote:
MGS I have to take issue with what you are saying. Not about your beliefs but what the lodge was doing. One of the appealing things in Masonary is that it takes all men reguardless of creed, race, or political views and all these things are to be sat aside once lodge has opened. They should NOT be donating only to certain causes that match their morals nor should the espouse one religion over another.

The religion parts really gets my goat because i held back for a long time about asking becuase i am not a christian. Once i asked and had talked to a few Masons i learned you just have to believe in somethign higher than yourself. Believe that this world is not governed by chaos and that is a pattern in nature.

That is not what I was told, I was told you must believe in the higher power, God, therefore you may be a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, but you could not be, say, a Hindu or a Wiccan or an agnostic or something, you must believe in a single creator God.

Perhaps it varies from lodge to lodge? I was attending one in the rural South West of the UK, so perhaps it's a deal more 'stodgy'? As I mentioned, it was full of exceptionally old blokes and seemed to be on it's last legs.

As to the charities, it was things like hospices, children's charities and upper middle class community projects etc but I was slapped on the back at the lodge bar and told 'but don't worry, we don't give money to junkies, tree huggers or scroungers, only worthy causes', which frankly made my skin crawl.

Ahtman wrote:

BrotherChaplinMalus wrote:
Ahtman:
And I have sat in lodge with a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, and an Agnostic all at the same. There is a lill bit more to the creed part that i left. Before you ever step foot in the lodge itself you are asked 4 things and any no answer to any of them stops you on the spot.
1) Do you believe in (a)God
2)Are you joining of your own free will?
3)You are of an upright and moral person
4) and are you willing to submit to the rules of this lodge
As I said a no answer to any of these 4 stop you from becoming a Mason.

This continues to argue that your statement "it takes all men reguardless of creed, race, or political views" is not quite accurate. While the latter two may be true, and I would suspect that political views would depend on the local lodge to be honest, it certainly doesn't take 'all creeds'. Again, I notice you didn't list atheist as being there. This isn't an attack on the group, as it may select members as it likes, but it doesn't take all people.

I have to imagine that the first question has to be a bit loose, since Buddhists don't believe in (a) God. You could jump through a bit of hoops to get to 'a higher power', but that isn't the same thing. A Buddha, nor The Buddha, is not a god.

Regarding the first point, it's not just about saying "I belong to religion abc and I pray every xyz". The easiest way to understand this is to think of God as an all encompassing Supreme Being. Someone that you believe you will answer to when you die. This is, to my basic understanding, more of acknowledging that you must be accountable for your actions. "God" to me is no more than a job title, it doesn't mean that you have to Christian, Jewish, Muslim (the list goes on); it means, I guess, that you put someone / thing else above yourself.

If any Masons here would like to pick up on the above and hopefully explain it better, please feel free to do so!

Squigsquasher wrote:

BrotherChaplinMalus wrote:
One of the appealing things in Masonary is that it takes all men reguardless of creed, race, or political views and all these things are to be sat aside once lodge has opened

And yet they do not accept women of any race, creed or political view.

That's not right, we have The Order of the Eastern Star. Women aren't a part of "regular lodges" for whatever reason, though they're also not a part of many golf clubs, Working Mens Clubs, and no doubt many other organisations that I can't think of. I'm not saying it's right or that it's wrong, though in summary, there are women in Freemasonry.

 kitch102 wrote:
Regarding the first point, it's not just about saying "I belong to religion abc and I pray every xyz". The easiest way to understand this is to think of God as an all encompassing Supreme Being. Someone that you believe you will answer to when you die. This is, to my basic understanding, more of acknowledging that you must be accountable for your actions. "God" to me is no more than a job title, it doesn't mean that you have to Christian, Jewish, Muslim (the list goes on); it means, I guess, that you put someone / thing else above yourself.

Again, this just lays out a binary relationship (believing in a higher power versus not believing in a higher power) that would mean that they, in fact, do not take any man of any creed, as some men's creed disallows a belief in a higher power. This isn't a slam against them, or a criticism, just a recognition that the statement "we take any man" is not accurate.

With the belief system in natural and artificial geometry, they sound like prime candidates for the Convergance of Cyriss.

@ Ahtman - the definition of creed is

Noun

- A system of Christian or other religious belief; a faith.
- A formal statement of Christian beliefs, esp. the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed.

To be an atheist is by it's very definition to be without creed, so when it's said that "we take men from all creeds", every word spoken is there is honest & true.

 kitch102 wrote:
@ Ahtman - the definition of creed is

Noun

- A system of Christian or other religious belief; a faith.
- A formal statement of Christian beliefs, esp. the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed.

To be an atheist is by it's very definition to be without creed, so when it's said that "we take men from all creeds", every word spoken is there is honest & true.

Only if you limit yourself to a narrow definition and avoid all others, such as this one from Wikipedia that is more inclusive:

A creed is a statement of belief, in particular a statement of faith that describes the beliefs shared by a religious community. Religious creeds are not intended to be comprehensive, but to be a summary of core beliefs. The term "creed" can also refer to a person's political or social beliefs, or is sometimes used to mean religious affiliation.

Or how about Merriam Webster, take a good long look at number two:

1: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief

2: a set of fundamental beliefs; also : a guiding principle

You'll notice that it doesn't require religious belief.

How about Dictionary.com?

1. any system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of a denomination.

2.any system or codification of belief or of opinion.

It seems number two is once again absent of religious criteria.

The word certainly has a lot of religious baggage, but it is not exclusively tied to religion. Is the fact that we are down to purely semantic arguments mean this is almost over?

.

Ahtman wrote:

 kitch102 wrote:
@ Ahtman - the definition of creed is

Noun

- A system of Christian or other religious belief; a faith.
- A formal statement of Christian beliefs, esp. the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed.

To be an atheist is by it's very definition to be without creed, so when it's said that "we take men from all creeds", every word spoken is there is honest & true.

Only if you limit yourself to a narrow definition and avoid all others, such as this one from Wikipedia that is more inclusive:

A creed is a statement of belief, in particular a statement of faith that describes the beliefs shared by a religious community. Religious creeds are not intended to be comprehensive, but to be a summary of core beliefs. The term "creed" can also refer to a person's political or social beliefs, or is sometimes used to mean religious affiliation.

Or how about Merriam Webster, take a good long look at number two:

1: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief

2: a set of fundamental beliefs; also : a guiding principle

You'll notice that it doesn't require religious belief.

How about Dictionary.com?

1. any system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of a denomination.

2.any system or codification of belief or of opinion.

It seems number two is once again absent of religious criteria.

The word certainly has a lot of religious baggage, but it is not exclusively tied to religion. Is the fact that we are down to purely semantic arguments mean this is almost over?

Absolutely, I just used the first one I found after a brief search before starting work this this morning. I'd likely avoid going by wikipedia though seems as anyone can write whatever they want. For that reason, I chose to go by the Oxford dictionary, ie, the same one that i used at school. You will notice however that every single entry that you yourself have quoted there states religion as the primary definition, some of which go on to mention it again in the second definition?

I'd say number 2 is anything but absent of religious criteria. "any system or codification of belief or of opinion". It's the word "belief" that disagrees with you there.

And no, I wouldn't say this is almost over just because one or two people have come stuck on one particular point. If you feel that you have reached the end of the debate, then fair enough, though drawing it to a close for anyone else that may have an interest in entering in to the discussion? I don't see why that should be the case.

Themanwiththeplan wrote:.It is a group of people that get together and talk about things, and it is not a political party or a business. It is also a secret society meaning that they don't tell outsiders what they talk about. It is the last part that gets some people, as often times people assume if you are being secretive that must mean you are up to no good. It also happens to be a very old group, which just adds fuel to the fire for the imaginative.

So in other words it's like the lodges in the Horus Heresy and you can't say. And we all know how well that worked for the Imperium.

That which thrives in shadow but withers in the light of day, does not belong on the vine.

Very poetic

I made the same connection before I joined. I'd always steer clear of comparing a real life entity to a fictional creation though!

When you go for a drink with the lads, do you tell your missus everything that you discussed? If your best mate in the whole world asked you to keep a secret, would you do so? Yes? Then why are you not a bad person for doing the same?

The reason for the modern day secrecy is a result of Hitlers actions in WW2, in which he captured and killed hundreds of thousands of Masons. The Masons in the UK as a result went underground, and haven't really "surfaced" again until recently, now that they're trying to bring themselves back in to the light of day, if you like. The challenge here is the misconceptions that people have of us now, as once a person believes that he or she knows something, it's nigh impossible to help them realise the truth without showing them the evidence (or in this case, making them a mason).

In anticipation of the question "well why don't you make everyone a Mason"; it's simple really. There is a HUGE amount of work that goes in to the craft, in the same way that there is with a theater production. It's not a case of "sign here, great you're in. Now here's the proof of what we do as we've been saying all along". I'm sure that any person regardless of their background would politely decline the opportunity to do months worth of practice, purely for someone that would only walk out the door immediately after and never return.

As a comparison, would you give someone a job, train them up, invest SO much time in them, if you knew that they were only going to walk out on you a week later? Of course not, it would be a complete waste of time for everyone involved. For that reason, Masons are selective of who they bring in. I think someone else said in this thread "one rotten apple soon spreads to the rest of the basket", and that's what we try to avoid, we peace and harmony, not strife and argument.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
With the belief system in natural and artificial geometry, they sound like prime candidates for the Convergance of Cyriss.

Thanks a lot... and here I thought I'd decided against joining

 kitch102 wrote:


I'd say number 2 is anything but absent of religious criteria. "any system or codification of belief or of opinion". It's the word "belief" that disagrees with you there.

I'd love to hear your opinion on how the word belief can ONLY be used to describe a religious criteria....

Being the fan of one particular sports team can be a creed, as you, along with other fans have the belief that your team is greater than the other teams within that league/sport.

Being a member of a union, say, the Fraternal Order of Policemen carries a certain creed along with it. A set of guidelines and values that each member should try to live up to.



Neither one of those brief examples are ones that involve religion whatsoever.

 kitch102 wrote:
So what do we know (or think we know) about the masons? Anyone on here a member?

I hear if you need some good stone work done, they're the guys to call. But don't believe the advertising. THEY AREN'T FREE!!! They'll charge you an arm and a leg!

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 kitch102 wrote:


I'd say number 2 is anything but absent of religious criteria. "any system or codification of belief or of opinion". It's the word "belief" that disagrees with you there.

I'd love to hear your opinion on how the word belief can ONLY be used to describe a religious criteria....

Being the fan of one particular sports team can be a creed, as you, along with other fans have the belief that your team is greater than the other teams within that league/sport.

Being a member of a union, say, the Fraternal Order of Policemen carries a certain creed along with it. A set of guidelines and values that each member should try to live up to.



Neither one of those brief examples are ones that involve religion whatsoever.

I guess we can put this down to either wires being crossed between us, or a difference of opinion. The specific wording has always been something along the lines of "do you believe in a god". The term creed isn't typically rolled out as far as I know, in all likelihood as they've had this specific debate before By definition though, the first entry under creed is "religious belief". I've at no point said creed is not used for anything else, though debating the meaning of one single poxy little word is on the whole, a waste of both of our time.

Frazzled wrote:

 kitch102 wrote:
So what do we know (or think we know) about the masons? Anyone on here a member?

I hear if you need some good stone work done, they're the guys to call. But don't believe the advertising. THEY AREN'T FREE!!! They'll charge you an arm and a leg!

Haha, clever Frazz

Pshh... Everybody knows Clampers have more fun.

Would it be fair to say that a Mason must be religious, and monotheistic?

From what I've seen in this fascinating thread, it seems that is what the creed debate boils down to- what exactly are the supernatural beliefs necessary for consideration.

As I understand it it's more about believing in something, whatever that something may be. I'll check that with those higher than myself though and feed back later (still learning )

It wouldn't be a proper OT thread without people arguing over the definition of a word.

 xole wrote:
It wouldn't be a proper OT thread the internet without people arguing over the definition of a word.

Ok, so I've checked what the line in the sand is. We're not sure if it varies lodge by lodge / country by country though, which could explain the differing comments mentioned in this thread.

A Mason is not expected to believe in a God, they just need to believe in something. When you enter you are asked to swear an oath on someone or something that you believe in, that you truly hold dear to your heart. I don't mean a throw away "ah, well I believe in Matt Ward, he'll do", but a "I'd be lost without... [my mum / the family heirloom / my best that was born on the same day as me OR, God, Allah, Buddah etc]"

It's about answering to a higher power. The wording is not necessarily God - though this may be used figuratively to give a sense of the level of belief that is required of the oath made - it simply boils down to making yourself answerable to a higher power.

As always, I welcome the thoughts of my fellow Masons on this as it would be interesting to get the input of those from other lodges around the habitable globe. My apologies if the above has seemingly taken the carpet out from under you or your previous comments, that is not my intention.

Thanks to everyone for your continued input, I'm enjoying the discussion and debate that has come from this thread.

Kitch

Ok then. As a full-blown athiest what would my options be?

I can't answer that, only you know what you believe in. It's a personal thing. There are examples in my comment, though it has to be something that YOU believe, I can't tell you what that is, as much as I'd like to be able to help you answer that question.

This sounds Disney as hell, and I'm sorry about that, but look inside yourself and you'll find the answer! (No, not like that )

By all means, please do feel free to tell me through this thread or by PM what you believe, in your heart, and maybe you'll find your answer.

 Lint wrote:
Ok then. As a full-blown athiest what would my options be?

For Science!

 Alfndrate wrote:

Spoiler:

For Science!

I lol'd at that

Hmm.. the "what do you believe" question is one I haven't pondered in great detail, since I don't feel a great need to BELIEVE anything and declare it.
I believe that mankind is an evolving creature just any other on this planet.
I believe we have power over our own "destinies," that is to say I don't believe there are supernatural forces of predestination that control us.
I believe that when I die I will cease to be in my entirety - no afterlife - but that while I'm here I have the responsibility to leave a legacy of having taught my children to be better than I was/am, and to have left this life having done more good than bad. Not in the hope of a reward, but as an act of common decency.

I'd have to think a bit more to come up with anything in greater detail, but those are the essentials.

Those are fantastic beliefs to have; caring for others and wanting to make the world a better place for those that follow us are huge Masonic "goals". That's why we're so heavily involved in charity work at the end of the day

Think on it, you might be surprised at what you find yourself thinking. If nothing else it's a cool "journey of self discovery".

I've toured the museum and attended an open day for recruitment I guess, for lack of better term, at the Number 0 lodge. As others have said it mostly seemed to be full of older gentlemen with ties to local business looking for a few kickbacks. As it was the Number 0 lodge, there was particular emphasis on beliefs. It was heavily hinted that if you weren't Protestant then you weren't welcome.

The guys who ran the museum really knew their local history and were a great pleasure to talk to both then, and the few times I've bumped into them whilst out and about.

Zond wrote:
The guys who ran the museum really knew their local history and were a great pleasure to talk to both then, and the few times I've bumped into them whilst out and about.

That's what masonry is about.

Zond wrote:
I've toured the museum and attended an open day for recruitment I guess, for lack of better term, at the Number 0 lodge. As others have said it mostly seemed to be full of older gentlemen with ties to local business looking for a few kickbacks. As it was the Number 0 lodge, there was particular emphasis on beliefs. It was heavily hinted that if you weren't Protestant then you weren't welcome.

I'm sure some guys do get work as a result of their involvement in Masonry, though it's actively discouraged and pointed out in your interview that if that's what you're really there for, to prepare for disappointment. However if you have a mate that wants a fence putting up, you'd help them out wouldn't you?

I'm contradicting myself in saying that, though we're taught to help others, it's what we want to do, so of course we're going to help those closest to us if they ask. God knows if we had someone on here that sold GW at 50% discount that we'd all buy from them!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
A thought's just occurred to me.

A couple of months ago I DJ'd for a friend, he was putting on a fund raiser in his back yard. I didn't charge and absorbed the costs of all fuel (including ferrying gear on about a 50 mile round trip) myself. I did because he is a friend.

He's also a Mason, though the thought of "maybe I can get something out of this" never entered my mind. I just wanted to help him.

That's what these 'back scratches' are, just 2 friends helping each other out. I do understand how it can be interpreted as something else though.

I'm actually a member of one of the other member organizations. Basically, the organization is multiple organization. As a Demolay (A youth equivalent to Masonry), its really about discussing things, planning events and enjoying yourselves with like minded people.

The only other difference Masonry could have with other social clubs is the existence of ritual for opening and closing a meeting, an initiation ritual and some form of moral lessons that is the prime purpose for the organization.

Hell, I could even start on an entire history lesson on Demolay if I wanted to, but it's entire history is as a youth led organization, and we can have people of the opposite gender in a limited capacity as members. We are as a whole, just Boy Scouts without the laundry list of restrictions, with no real requirements for ranks and such and actually led by the Youth. I can say that as both and Eagle Scout and an Active Demolay

Meh, not decrying anyones experience with the Freemasons, just stating what I experienced. I used the term kickbacks deliberately, as it didn't seem like there was much helping out friends with a fence.

The religious aspect put me off, but different strokes and all that.

It boils down to this. From the moment you join right from the get go your doing rituals. The higher you climb, the more rituals you do. At what point do you question the true meaning behind these rituals other than traditition or as a mass bonding experience. At what point do you say to your self - holy gak dude, I joined this thing and I don't even know what it's truly about. Just some vauge promises of being told more and more secrets IF you get to the next degree of masonary. What happens if you want out, or that you tell a non mason one of these secrets (which mostly arn't secret) you get murdered and weighted down at the bottom of the nearest lake or body of water. Or did you think they were kidding when you took that oath?