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**Peregrine**

The problem is you've created a unit that's simultaneously overpowered and suicidally terrible. While the Emperor lives he's completely overpowered and really feels like yet another "I want to destroy everything in Apocalypse but I don't want to buy any expensive models" where you have a single 28mm infantry model with titan-level stats. On the other hand he's still just a single model and dies instantly to his points in D-weapon titans. So you have a huge swing in outcomes depending on whether you go first and abuse his powers or go second and get nothing more than a meatshield to draw D-weapon fire. That's absolutely terrible for balance because there's no consistent value for the unit. What you need to do is tone down the rules significantly and reduce the point cost to the ~500-750 range like the other primarchs.

And you really need to work on your attitude and stop taking criticism of your ideas as a personal attack. Nobody gets their new rules right the first time, what you need to do is learn from constructive criticism and use it to improve your work, not go all-out on defense to protect your beloved ideas.

The Bindings of Mankind: The Emperor of Mankind's death on the battlefield would result in mass hysteria across the entirety of the Imperium, and the decay of the imperium as it kills itself without his leadership. When the Emperor dies on the battlefield all friendly units commit seppuku, and you lose.

This especially feels like kind of a childish "fine, I'll make it weaker" response instead of a legitimate rule. You know perfectly well (or at least you should) that this rule really means "If your opponent has D-weapons you lose the game without playing" and will never work in a real game. So what's the point in including it?

**BaconUprising**

No I'm suggesting changes that are logical. You seem unwilling to make your character playable which is what I'm suggesting. The fact that I have debated this for so long with you would suggest that I'm actually trying to help you make the best character possible. You calling mods and arguing pointlessly over the same aspects of the character consistently disrupt this.

**ThePrimordial**

BaconUprising wrote:
No I'm suggesting changes that are logical. You seem unwilling to make your character playable which is what I'm suggesting. The fact that I have debated this for so long with you would suggest that I'm actually trying to help you make the best character possible. You calling mods and arguing pointlessly over the same aspects of the character consistently disrupt this.

He should be 900 points. Look at the Reaver I described two posts ago. That is a very common Apoc unit which is 1450.
I'm not gonna validate the baby peregrine with a response. He's hated on boards like this. He has about 4 times as many haters as I do. Which is saying something

**Peregrine**

ThePrimordial wrote:
I'm not gonna validate the baby peregrine with a response.

You know, for someone who's so eager to summon the mods you really don't know much about rule #1...

**BaconUprising**

Why won't you "validate him with a response"! He's got it exactly right. You are just unwilling to make your character even slightly good. You need to drop his abilities, statline and mastery level. He shouldn't be trying to compete with reaver titans! Why does he have to be so ridiculously powerful?

**ThePrimordial**

BaconUprising wrote:
Why won't you "validate him with a response"! He's got it exactly right. You are just unwilling to make your character even slightly good. You need to drop his abilities, statline and mastery level. He shouldn't be trying to compete with reaver titans! Why does he have to be so ridiculously powerful?

He's an Apoc only unit. He needs to be ridiculously powerful. As it stands he's pathetic compared to every other apoc only unit like An'ggrath, Hierophant, Every titan ever.
OK I'm gonna be nice again. Tell me what to drop. I'll drop powers and mastery level but not his statline. 1 point higher in every stat than Horus is very modest fluffwise. He also needs to be cheaper dramatically unless you don't want him to Apoc anymore. Apoc units are way more powerful in every way for their points cost than normal units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
ThePrimordial wrote:
I'm not gonna validate the baby peregrine with a response.

You know, for someone who's so eager to summon the mods you really don't know much about rule #1...

This is the internet........people are anonymous which is really bad. The mod said the same thing about how niceness on the internet is unrealistic.

**BaconUprising**

What I would suggest: Start completely again, use the Emperor I provided on the second post as a base (not Horus), change some of the rules, put in your own, tweak the stats slightly to your preferences and put the mastery level up 1 if you really want. That's what i would do if I was intent on having a super powered guy that isn't unreal.
I've play tested my Emperor many times and actually wanted to nerd him. He can kill Angron in a round of combat so don't start telling me he's weak.

**Peregrine**

ThePrimordial wrote:
He's an Apoc only unit. He needs to be ridiculously powerful.

No he doesn't. Primarchs are Apocalypse-only units and they're not this powerful. My Malcador is an Apocalypse-only unit and it's barely better than a LRBT that costs half as much. Labeling something "Apocalypse only" doesn't mean that you should throw on overpowered rule after overpowered rule without any thought of balance.

As it stands he's pathetic compared to every other apoc only unit like An'ggrath, Hierophant, Every titan ever.

And I'm guessing he also doesn't have a similarly awesome model. If you aren't bringing an amazing custom model on the level of the FW primarch models you don't get to put titan-level stats on it. Those powerful rules are supposed to be an incentive to bring the awesome models that make Apocalypse worth playing, not just something you throw on every random 28mm infantry model.

OK I'm gonna be nice again. Tell me what to drop. I'll drop powers and mastery level but not his statline.

Start by looking at the FW primarchs as a base, and keep it simple. If your unit's rules take up more space than a FW primarch you're doing too much.

This is the internet........people are anonymous which is really bad. The mod said the same thing about how niceness on the internet is unrealistic.

I suggest you review this forum's rule #1 or you may not be participating here much longer.

**ThePrimordial**

BaconUprising wrote:
What I would suggest: Start completely again, use the Emperor I provided on the second post as a base (not Horus), change some of the rules, put in your own, tweak the stats slightly to your preferences and put the mastery level up 1 if you really want. That's what i would do if I was intent on having a super powered guy that isn't unreal.
I've play tested my Emperor many times and actually wanted to nerd him. He can kill Angron in a round of combat so don't start telling me he's weak.

The Emprah is a guy who kills worlds with his powers with an agitated look. Isn't Angron a third the points cost? Or did you lower the cost to around 900?
Also about the light of Mankind: I want to keep something like that takes all the warp charges for one turn and can't be done a second time in a row. How bout this: S:9, AP:4 ,10"blast, Heavy 3.
Primarchs aren't Apoc only. They just need 2000 point games.
I'm using the Ronin model where he's standing on the Eagle totem.

**BaconUprising**

Looking back what I have suggested is IMMENSLY powerful, f that's not strong enough for you I can't help you any more. I agree with peregrine. You should be using Horus stats or maybe 1 higher on 1-2 things and some different wargear plus mastery level 5 for a sort of 750 points cost MAX

**insaniak**

ThePrimordial wrote:
This is the internet........people are anonymous which is really bad. The mod said the same thing about how niceness on the internet is unrealistic.

If that's what you got from Major Tom's response, you need to go back and read it again.

Consider this a final warning. If you can't play nice, the thread will be closed. There is no excuse for rudeness.

**ThePrimordial**

BaconUprising wrote:
Looking back what I have suggested is IMMENSLY powerful, f that's not strong enough for you I can't help you any more. I agree with peregrine. You should be using Horus stats or maybe 1 higher on 1-2 things and some different wargear plus mastery level 5 for a sort of 750 points cost MAX

The Annihilate power is really pathetic for someone who kills worlds with mean looks.....
He's so above any other psyker its not funny. Alpha level psykers don't even have rules but they'd be about ML 6, Magnus would be 7 or 8. Emps should be 10.
The Emperor is about 40000 experienced psykers inhabiting the same body....I think ML 10 is ok

**Chrysis**

ThePrimordial wrote:
BaconUprising wrote:
Looking back what I have suggested is IMMENSLY powerful, f that's not strong enough for you I can't help you any more. I agree with peregrine. You should be using Horus stats or maybe 1 higher on 1-2 things and some different wargear plus mastery level 5 for a sort of 750 points cost MAX

The Annihilate power is really pathetic for someone who kills worlds with mean looks.....

In what GW, Forgeworld or Black Library publication does this occur? Specifically killing a world with a mean look. Presumably one that wasn't accompanied by an order for Exterminatus. I can't recall seeing it.

And at any rate, the ability to annihilate an entire world singlehandedly is an excellent reason to not make rules for him in the first place. Because they are either not going to live up to the fluff, or they are and it's impossible for the owning player to lose. Neither is going to be much fun for anyone involved, as they'll either see their world-killer punked by a grot or as the opponent have no reason to bother showing up as it's a foregone conclusion.

**Peregrine**

ThePrimordial wrote:
The Annihilate power is really pathetic for someone who kills worlds with mean looks.....

Don't forget that the Heresy authors have openly admitted that they aren't writing just literal facts, and the "truth" of the stories is clouded by lies and myths. Look at it less as a strictly factual accounting of the Heresy and more as the mythology of 40k.

He's so above any other psyker its not funny. Alpha level psykers don't even have rules but they'd be about ML 6, Magnus would be 7 or 8. Emps should be 10.
The Emperor is about 40000 experienced psykers inhabiting the same body....I think ML 10 is ok

This is assuming that ML and power are the same thing, and that ML just keeps increasing. Maybe instead Magnus will get a unique power or two with ML 3-4.

And the problem with ML 10 is that you create a "do everything" character that never has to make interesting choices about which psychic powers to use. You're guilty of the common mistake of assuming that more options is always a good thing, and the result is a design with no elegance or interesting decisions.

**ThePrimordial**

Peregrine wrote:
The problem is you've created a unit that's simultaneously overpowered and suicidally terrible. While the Emperor lives he's completely overpowered and really feels like yet another "I want to destroy everything in Apocalypse but I don't want to buy any expensive models" where you have a single 28mm infantry model with titan-level stats. On the other hand he's still just a single model and dies instantly to his points in D-weapon titans. So you have a huge swing in outcomes depending on whether you go first and abuse his powers or go second and get nothing more than a meatshield to draw D-weapon fire. That's absolutely terrible for balance because there's no consistent value for the unit. What you need to do is tone down the rules significantly and reduce the point cost to the ~500-750 range like the other primarchs.

And you really need to work on your attitude and stop taking criticism of your ideas as a personal attack. Nobody gets their new rules right the first time, what you need to do is learn from constructive criticism and use it to improve your work, not go all-out on defense to protect your beloved ideas.

The Bindings of Mankind: The Emperor of Mankind's death on the battlefield would result in mass hysteria across the entirety of the Imperium, and the decay of the imperium as it kills itself without his leadership. When the Emperor dies on the battlefield all friendly units commit seppuku, and you lose.

This especially feels like kind of a childish "fine, I'll make it weaker" response instead of a legitimate rule. You know perfectly well (or at least you should) that this rule really means "If your opponent has D-weapons you lose the game without playing" and will never work in a real game. So what's the point in including it?

The rule was meant to be unbelievably stupid. It was a joke. A mildly amusing one at that.
Yeah that's what it means with the rule which is again a joke. Without it The Emprah which was 1550 points before I edited it was still mildly underpowered for Apocalypse.
I was gonna change it as soon as someone took notice of it. I felt the thread could use a laugh.
OK how bout Mastery 7 or 8. Peregrine you can pick one at random and we'll roll with it.
Edit: Psykers have varying power levels. If one beta trains hard and masters what he has to work with he still won't be capable of the feats of his Alpha friend. So what does mastery mean really? The wording would imply that it literally means mastery not power level.
Edit: There's still the chance that when the time rolls around in 4 years and the Emprah does get official rules from ForgeWorld he'll be a psychic imperator titan. Unlikely but still. I'd put my estimate on him being about Reaver level.

**thorian**

BaconUprising wrote:
thorian wrote:
We should really look at fluff that we know as a certainty, not from lexicanum first, before we judge on the power of the Emperor. So a few things:
1) Is the Emperor more powerful than Primarchs?
YES. Far more so, the fact that marines referred to Primarchs as gods, and then the primarchs referred to the emperor as god-like puts in perspective to how powerful he was. So from this we can assume that the emperor to a primarch is what a primarch is to a space marine. But before we just say that lets have some evidence. Let us also compare a few other things. Next we have some of the meetings of primarchs with the emperor, most obvious one here is Russ and the emperor (who easily took out Russ) and mortarian and the emperor (of which the emperor passed the task mortarian could not). So we have proof he is more powerful than primarchs by a fairly large degree. And again finally on this subject the fact that all four gods had to back Horus just to give him a chance. So from all this it is very fair to assume he is head and shoulders more powerful than a primarch, especially if one of their greatest (horus) had to be massively empowered to stand a chance, and even gods realized that.

2) Horus had psychic powers? No he didnt. Read the horus heresy books, he never displays any until after his gifts of chaos.

3) The Ork. This is an unusual one. What do we know here? Ok, an ork did seriously become a threat to the emperor but this is what else we know:
A) It was the largest WAAAGGHH ever, period. Nothing had stopped it or been in its way in time or history, it had just built up unopposed with a population of orks that hadn't even slightly been stemmed as the galactic crusade was in its early days and so it was not a fledgling race but a full blown galactic empire. This is common sense, if nothing has stopped it, it has just grown. Next take some ork fluff, when a waargh is created it generates its own warp field of some sort that actually destabilizes and alters the space around it, it is likely that from a waaaggh of this size, the ork could have been an alpha level psyker. Lastly, orks are plants, they can grow and it has been shown that through great age they can really have small limit of what they can achieve size, psychic potential and strength wise. So honestly using this against the emperor is unfounded. Also there is the speculation that the emperor let it happen to cement his relationship with his son Horus.

4) The emperors power. Unfortunately despite knowing he is far more powerful than his primarchs, we do not know the full extent of his power. All we know is he was able to frighten the very gods themselves which means he must be a threat to even them. That ALONE should give us evidence of his power. He has subdued planets on his own, his psychic might is galaxy spanning (as shown by the astronomicon), and able to destroy planets, and when he fought horus he refrained from actually fighting as he didnt want to kill his favored child. It was only when he had no other choice he unleashed such severe psychic power that he did not just kill him but destroy his very soul and essence, something only the god slaanesh has been shown to do.

So what do we take from this? Firstly he should never be fielded, he is plain too powerful. But at the seminar they confirmed he will get rules so hey ho. Secondly that people should just read the books instead of reading publicly editable pages, anything can be on there. lastly, it is not impracticable to give the emperor psychic mastery 10 but only if he does no other actions that turn and is not in combat, as it has been shown that although the most powerful psyker, he was no natural. That was magnus, and that the emperor needed concentration to use his powers. Makes it a bit lie the 999pts tzeencth daemon lord that way. But I do say just adding 1 to all his stats from horus makes little sense... he needs a lot more bumping. And an auto-loss if he dies.

1: How "massively empowered" by the chaos gods was Hours and how do you alone seem to know?

2: If you had actually read what I was responding to then you would realise I was talking about possessed Horus who does infact have powers of Psychic manifestation

3:All primarchs have a measure of psychic potential within them. Can't be bothered to reference which book claims this but I'm sure it's the fist heretic. So yes Horus does actually have psychic powers even if they are not in his rules.

4: The fact that a single ork presented a genuine threat to the Emperor was the point I made, the ork in question was a warboss nit a psyker. Horus killed it easily yet the Emperor struggled.

5: Your point about the Emperor allowing Horus to kill the ork and it to attack him is unsupported currently and irrelevant unless a source is given and therefore contributes nothing to this debate.

6: Which planet did he subdue on his own? If you are referring to earth he had an army of thunder marines to help him, hardly by himself. Once again you have provided another argument with no reliable source to back it up. It is as well therefore irrelevant to the debate currently

7: "Refrained" suggests he didn't fight which is incorrect. He still fought and was significantly loosing, admittedly he didn't want to destroy his favoured son but Horus didn't allow him to get into the fight.

8: The Emperor unleashed a desperate psychic attack which Horus failed to counter as he was distracted

9: There's a good chance he will be fielded according to forge worlds Simon Egan

10: I have read all of the HH books that relate to this conversation, clearly you haven't or you simply fail to reference any of them in your arguments

Edit: this is the passage I am referencing the fight between Horus and the Emperor
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

Wow, I post with some info I got from reading the books to help both parties and you go and explode and then start throwing accusations? I thought the angsty 12 year olds weren't on this forum.... go home and let the rogue trader/space crusade grown ups talk yeah? But il bite.

1) How do I "ALONE" seem to know? I am not alone, it is common knowledge and common sense. If all four chaos gods empowered him, doubtful it would be just a small trickle. The fact all 4 gods empowered him (and that means the 4 gods actually putting aside MASSIVE feuds just to do this shows how important this would have been) shows that it would have been a massive empowering. Its common sense....
Oh and from your link:
"Behind Horus was the massed power of the Chaos Gods. "

2) I accept that, only blessed did he have that power. Oh and seeing as we are picking apart posts, OMG you mustn't have read the books! He wasn't possessed he was just blessed! OMFG lame! *end of 12 year old impression rant*

3) It is quoted as latent psychic potential. Never meant it manifested into open psychic power. Go read again, if you even have the books.

4) In a Waaargh, the warboss in general becomes some form of psyker. Read about Waarghs and the actual affect they have on the orks and on realspace. Plus at no point was the ork ever described as "a simple lone ork warboss". There is not enough backstory on the ork to use it in an argument, but there is enough info on the fact it is the biggest waaargh ever seen and the effects such a waaargh would have on realspace and an or warboss. Please remember to use info from other sources than just the HH books you claimed to have read.

5) Unsupported yes, but not disproved either. See previous post as to why the Or argument itself is really unfounded and useless in this discussion.

6) He subdued a god-like creature on earth on his own, forgot it's name. Also I believe you are correct on the sense he did not subdue on his own, but with aid. But before primarchs it was him and his children that were conquering the galaxy where he did lead from the front. Not only that but bearing in mind he is more powerful than all primarchs and magnus has been shown to destroy planets with his psychic potential, then it is very easy to assume the Emperor could do that too.

7) He fought but not at full strength as he did not want to kill his favored son. This is also from your link:
"The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him."

8) He erased him from existance and Horus would never have survived it, seeing it coming or not.

9) I hope only in stupid level apoc games and scenarios

10) Clearly YOU haven't, I blatantly have. You don't seem to have even read your own link you posted. Go play action man kid.

To accurately gauge the power of the emperor we must do the following:
1) Use any examples of the emperor actively using power and his feats.
2) Compare the abilities, feats and power that lesser beings than him have been able to aquire.
3) Remember that GW openly stated that he is the most powerful being in the galaxy (I state in the galaxy as the gods are technically in another area altogether).
4) The gods themselves feared him.

From this we can gauge that he is obscenely powerful. So yes he should be able to take out an army on his own, this is fluffy and accurate. But his points should reflect that. I would say 1500pts (reaver level) just is not enough. I say 2500pts at the warlord level is more accurate, or even the 5000pts imperator might be accurate. Primarchs have been able to take out titans with ease, so the big E should really outclass them in power and points.

**BaconUprising**

thorian wrote:
BaconUprising wrote:
thorian wrote:
We should really look at fluff that we know as a certainty, not from lexicanum first, before we judge on the power of the Emperor. So a few things:
1) Is the Emperor more powerful than Primarchs?
YES. Far more so, the fact that marines referred to Primarchs as gods, and then the primarchs referred to the emperor as god-like puts in perspective to how powerful he was. So from this we can assume that the emperor to a primarch is what a primarch is to a space marine. But before we just say that lets have some evidence. Let us also compare a few other things. Next we have some of the meetings of primarchs with the emperor, most obvious one here is Russ and the emperor (who easily took out Russ) and mortarian and the emperor (of which the emperor passed the task mortarian could not). So we have proof he is more powerful than primarchs by a fairly large degree. And again finally on this subject the fact that all four gods had to back Horus just to give him a chance. So from all this it is very fair to assume he is head and shoulders more powerful than a primarch, especially if one of their greatest (horus) had to be massively empowered to stand a chance, and even gods realized that.

2) Horus had psychic powers? No he didnt. Read the horus heresy books, he never displays any until after his gifts of chaos.

3) The Ork. This is an unusual one. What do we know here? Ok, an ork did seriously become a threat to the emperor but this is what else we know:
A) It was the largest WAAAGGHH ever, period. Nothing had stopped it or been in its way in time or history, it had just built up unopposed with a population of orks that hadn't even slightly been stemmed as the galactic crusade was in its early days and so it was not a fledgling race but a full blown galactic empire. This is common sense, if nothing has stopped it, it has just grown. Next take some ork fluff, when a waargh is created it generates its own warp field of some sort that actually destabilizes and alters the space around it, it is likely that from a waaaggh of this size, the ork could have been an alpha level psyker. Lastly, orks are plants, they can grow and it has been shown that through great age they can really have small limit of what they can achieve size, psychic potential and strength wise. So honestly using this against the emperor is unfounded. Also there is the speculation that the emperor let it happen to cement his relationship with his son Horus.

4) The emperors power. Unfortunately despite knowing he is far more powerful than his primarchs, we do not know the full extent of his power. All we know is he was able to frighten the very gods themselves which means he must be a threat to even them. That ALONE should give us evidence of his power. He has subdued planets on his own, his psychic might is galaxy spanning (as shown by the astronomicon), and able to destroy planets, and when he fought horus he refrained from actually fighting as he didnt want to kill his favored child. It was only when he had no other choice he unleashed such severe psychic power that he did not just kill him but destroy his very soul and essence, something only the god slaanesh has been shown to do.

So what do we take from this? Firstly he should never be fielded, he is plain too powerful. But at the seminar they confirmed he will get rules so hey ho. Secondly that people should just read the books instead of reading publicly editable pages, anything can be on there. lastly, it is not impracticable to give the emperor psychic mastery 10 but only if he does no other actions that turn and is not in combat, as it has been shown that although the most powerful psyker, he was no natural. That was magnus, and that the emperor needed concentration to use his powers. Makes it a bit lie the 999pts tzeencth daemon lord that way. But I do say just adding 1 to all his stats from horus makes little sense... he needs a lot more bumping. And an auto-loss if he dies.

1: How "massively empowered" by the chaos gods was Hours and how do you alone seem to know?

2: If you had actually read what I was responding to then you would realise I was talking about possessed Horus who does infact have powers of Psychic manifestation

3:All primarchs have a measure of psychic potential within them. Can't be bothered to reference which book claims this but I'm sure it's the fist heretic. So yes Horus does actually have psychic powers even if they are not in his rules.

4: The fact that a single ork presented a genuine threat to the Emperor was the point I made, the ork in question was a warboss nit a psyker. Horus killed it easily yet the Emperor struggled.

5: Your point about the Emperor allowing Horus to kill the ork and it to attack him is unsupported currently and irrelevant unless a source is given and therefore contributes nothing to this debate.

6: Which planet did he subdue on his own? If you are referring to earth he had an army of thunder marines to help him, hardly by himself. Once again you have provided another argument with no reliable source to back it up. It is as well therefore irrelevant to the debate currently

7: "Refrained" suggests he didn't fight which is incorrect. He still fought and was significantly loosing, admittedly he didn't want to destroy his favoured son but Horus didn't allow him to get into the fight.

8: The Emperor unleashed a desperate psychic attack which Horus failed to counter as he was distracted

9: There's a good chance he will be fielded according to forge worlds Simon Egan

10: I have read all of the HH books that relate to this conversation, clearly you haven't or you simply fail to reference any of them in your arguments

Edit: this is the passage I am referencing the fight between Horus and the Emperor
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

Wow, I post with some info I got from reading the books to help both parties and you go and explode and then start throwing accusations? I thought the angsty 12 year olds weren't on this forum.... go home and let the rogue trader/space crusade grown ups talk yeah? But il bite.

1) How do I "ALONE" seem to know? I am not alone, it is common knowledge and common sense. If all four chaos gods empowered him, doubtful it would be just a small trickle. The fact all 4 gods empowered him (and that means the 4 gods actually putting aside MASSIVE feuds just to do this shows how important this would have been) shows that it would have been a massive empowering. Its common sense....
Oh and from your link:
"Behind Horus was the massed power of the Chaos Gods. "

2) I accept that, only blessed did he have that power. Oh and seeing as we are picking apart posts, OMG you mustn't have read the books! He wasn't possessed he was just blessed! OMFG lame! *end of 12 year old impression rant*

3) It is quoted as latent psychic potential. Never meant it manifested into open psychic power. Go read again, if you even have the books.

4) In a Waaargh, the warboss in general becomes some form of psyker. Read about Waarghs and the actual affect they have on the orks and on realspace. Plus at no point was the ork ever described as "a simple lone ork warboss". There is not enough backstory on the ork to use it in an argument, but there is enough info on the fact it is the biggest waaargh ever seen and the effects such a waaargh would have on realspace and an or warboss. Please remember to use info from other sources than just the HH books you claimed to have read.

5) Unsupported yes, but not disproved either. See previous post as to why the Or argument itself is really unfounded and useless in this discussion.

6) He subdued a god-like creature on earth on his own, forgot it's name. Also I believe you are correct on the sense he did not subdue on his own, but with aid. But before primarchs it was him and his children that were conquering the galaxy where he did lead from the front. Not only that but bearing in mind he is more powerful than all primarchs and magnus has been shown to destroy planets with his psychic potential, then it is very easy to assume the Emperor could do that too.

7) He fought but not at full strength as he did not want to kill his favored son. This is also from your link:
"The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him."

8) He erased him from existance and Horus would never have survived it, seeing it coming or not.

9) I hope only in stupid level apoc games and scenarios

10) Clearly YOU haven't, I blatantly have. You don't seem to have even read your own link you posted. Go play action man kid.

To accurately gauge the power of the emperor we must do the following:
1) Use any examples of the emperor actively using power and his feats.
2) Compare the abilities, feats and power that lesser beings than him have been able to aquire.
3) Remember that GW openly stated that he is the most powerful being in the galaxy (I state in the galaxy as the gods are technically in another area altogether).
4) The gods themselves feared him.

From this we can gauge that he is obscenely powerful. So yes he should be able to take out an army on his own, this is fluffy and accurate. But his points should reflect that. I would say 1500pts (reaver level) just is not enough. I say 2500pts at the warlord level is more accurate, or even the 5000pts imperator might be accurate. Primarchs have been able to take out titans with ease, so the big E should really outclass them in power and points.

wow so you post again raging hard and one again reference nothing. The only source you use is the one I've provided. Bravo :claps sarcastically:
Anyway this has already been resolved so I'm no longer getting involved.

**The Grumpy Eldar**

It does not make sense that you are comparing the Emperor against a Titan on the gameboard, that is non-sensical. The Emperor is a character not a gigantic warmachine. Primarchs can't beat a titan either on the other end of the board. So it makes no sense to compare him to a Reaver Titans firepower.

And if you think he's overpriced with the suggested changes... just change the price to what is appropirate. Plus why didn't you at least Give him Eternal Warrior so he won't be instakilled?

Please stop spouting Emprah this, Emprah that. It's a boardgame to be played for fun, the rules aren't the same as been told in Fluff. The Primarchs die just as easily on the Tabletop.

thorian wrote:
Go home and let the rogue trader/space crusade grown ups talk yeah? But il bite.

AWW, are we going all elitist now?
Rogue Trader/Space Crusade fluff doesn't apply anymore as much has been changed in the meantime, you lived under a rock?

**BaconUprising**

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
It does not make sense that you are comparing the Emperor against a Titan on the gameboard, that is non-sensical. The Emperor is a character not a gigantic warmachine. Primarchs can't beat a titan either. So it makes no sense to compare him to a Reaver Titans firepower.

And if you think he's overpriced with the suggested changes... just change the price to what is appropirate.

Please stop spouting Emprah this, Emprah that. It's a boardgame to be played for fun, the rules aren't the same as been told in Fluff. The Primarchs die just as easily on the Tabletop.

this

**ThePrimordial**

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
It does not make sense that you are comparing the Emperor against a Titan on the gameboard, that is non-sensical. The Emperor is a character not a gigantic warmachine. Primarchs can't beat a titan either on the other end of the board. So it makes no sense to compare him to a Reaver Titans firepower.

And if you think he's overpriced with the suggested changes... just change the price to what is appropirate. Plus why didn't you at least Give him Eternal Warrior so he won't be instakilled?

Please stop spouting Emprah this, Emprah that. It's a boardgame to be played for fun, the rules aren't the same as been told in Fluff. The Primarchs die just as easily on the Tabletop.

thorian wrote:
Go home and let the rogue trader/space crusade grown ups talk yeah? But il bite.

AWW, are we going all elitist now?
Rogue Trader/Space Crusade fluff doesn't apply anymore as much has been changed in the meantime, you lived under a rock?

Psykers that like dustmotes compared to he Emperor are capable of tearing apart Reavers with thier mind. Reaver level is fine and as I said the Reaver is one of the most common Apoc units. Plus the rules have already been changed. He can't cut in Apoc anymore with the rule changes I made.

**shamikebab**

Why do you not understand that fluff doesn't equal rules?

**MajorTom11**

Ok since you guys seem unable to conduct yourselves civilly, this thread is closed.