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 Rainbow Dash wrote:
though the jobs aren't careers, and never will be, due to the crappiness of the job market and the growing gap between rich and poor, its often the only thing offered to most people
so what, how do you survive when this is all that is offered to you?

Work harder, improve your skills, learn English. These are literally the jobs with the least effort required.
This is a union scam. They are trying to push for a higher minimum wage for everyone, while at the same time having an open door to illegal immigrants. Note the amount of signs not even in English.

I don't know about where you are, but here if you go into a McDonalds or Burger King no one you see will be a native English speaker, and these aren't legal immigrants either.


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 Peregrine wrote:
You know, it's kind of funny how people are insisting that these people don't "deserve" more than $X/hour. What happened to good old fashioned capitalism where the free market sets the price of labor? If fast food workers can negotiate $15/hour successfully then that is what their labor is worth. Don't like it? Offer to take the job for $14/hour and take that money.

I agree wholeheartedly. If they can negotiate for $15 an hour then more power to them. inversely the stores invlved should have the absolute right to terminate them on the spot.

Lots of people saying, 'Why should they be paid $15/h to flip burgers when I'm doing highly skilled work at $18/h?' I've seen highly specialised work being paid peanuts, presumably they are taking advantage of a poor economy and the 'offer' of more work. This is typical of internships in particular which are exploitative.

I would say the issue with the sort of person I describe above on $18 is that they are not paid enough for their skill set. It's been politically managed that workers turn on each other rather than on the system. Instead of hating on people wanting a rise to $15 for unskilled work (which isn't a huge amount in absolute terms) take issue with your employers who are ripping you off and paying you a lot less than your skill set deserves. There's an attitude to attack other people for getting a pay rise instead of going after the people who are taking advantage of you. Support the fast food workers against corporations, don't attack them and side with the corporation, that means you're helping the system hold them down, and ultimately it's the culture that holds your pay down also. A culture where a tiny minority have colossal wages, and many workers get a pittance.

Noir wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
I wonder how many "strikers" will get fired. Pretty sure you dont get much strike protection when your non union

Better then being in a union that strikes becouse they can, causing the company to close. Only to have the company sell off it's IP to "itself" and reopen. Twinkies still on the shelf, empolyees on the street.

You have no idea what happend at Hostess do you?

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I would say the issue with the sort of person I describe above on $18 is that they are not paid enough for their skill set. It's been politically managed that workers turn on each other rather than on the system. Instead of hating on people wanting a rise to $15 for unskilled work (which isn't a huge amount in absolute terms) take issue with your employers who are ripping you off and paying you a lot less than your skill set deserves. There's an attitude to attack other people for getting a pay rise instead of going after the people who are taking advantage of you. Support the fast food workers against corporations, don't attack them and side with the corporation, that means you're helping the system hold them down, and ultimately it's the culture that holds your pay down also. A culture where a tiny minority have colossal wages, and many workers get a pittance.

Entirely agree

15$ an hour for flipping burgers? Just fire them all on the spot and bring on the next batch!

One disadvantage they face is that, in the dirt poor area of fast food these stores represents, many people, myself included, would rather interface with a computer, and rather have machines actually do the "cooking."

Mighty Fine, and the local barbeque joint are one thing. The hell of McDonalds is something completely different. The immigrants working there are typically hardworking, but often have a difficulty understanding English. But the native speakers-wow, just wow.

I am here to add to the debate about what a job is "worth".

Quite a few people in this thread have said if you can negotiate a higher wage, that is what your job is now worth, etc. Always looking at the pay increase.

The reality is, it goes the other way. In the free market, a job is only worth whatever the lowest amount someone is willing to be paid for the job.

Not the other way around.

Burger flipping and asking "do you want fries with that?" may be currently paying around $8-$9 an hour, but only because of minimum wage law.

Some teens would probably do the job, to eat free fast food everyday, and get some extra cash, amounting to $5 an hour.

I know a teen will work for $5 an hour, because this is the standard going rate for hiring your neighbors child to help you work on some home remodel job. And if they happily accept the $5 an hour.

The only reason they do not, is because of the artificial floor on wages.

So the reality is fast food is probably a $5 an hour job, that people are getting paid $8-$9 for, and are now striking to get $15.

I say abolish the minimum wage, and then let's sort it out.

 Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
I say abolish the minimum wage, and then let's sort it out.

While we are at it let's get rid of age laws too, then we can move all those jobs back from 3rd world gak holes and give them to 'MURICAN CHILDUN who deserve to work 16 hour days for pennies...

 Easy E wrote:

Noir wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
I wonder how many "strikers" will get fired. Pretty sure you dont get much strike protection when your non union

Better then being in a union that strikes becouse they can, causing the company to close. Only to have the company sell off it's IP to "itself" and reopen. Twinkies still on the shelf, empolyees on the street.

You have no idea what happend at Hostess do you?

yeah... both parties at the table fethed up.


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 Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
I am here to add to the debate about what a job is "worth".

Quite a few people in this thread have said if you can negotiate a higher wage, that is what your job is now worth, etc. Always looking at the pay increase.

The reality is, it goes the other way. In the free market, a job is only worth whatever the lowest amount someone is willing to be paid for the job.

Not the other way around.

Burger flipping and asking "do you want fries with that?" may be currently paying around $8-$9 an hour, but only because of minimum wage law.

Some teens would probably do the job, to eat free fast food everyday, and get some extra cash, amounting to $5 an hour.

I know a teen will work for $5 an hour, because this is the standard going rate for hiring your neighbors child to help you work on some home remodel job. And if they happily accept the $5 an hour.

The only reason they do not, is because of the artificial floor on wages.

So the reality is fast food is probably a $5 an hour job, that people are getting paid $8-$9 for, and are now striking to get $15.

I say abolish the minimum wage, and then let's sort it out.

No way jose... that's a bad idea.

A better idea is to fething enforce the immigration laws.

I find it ironic that the Unions / Traditional Democrats are all gung-ho over immigration policy... and yet totally blind/deaf to what kind of effect illegal migrant workers does to wages.

All you have to look at is this: Many Employers are ambivalent (or, at worst, supportive) of illegal workers because of the downward pressure they cause on wages. That should tell ya something....

 whembly wrote:
I find it ironic that the Unions / Traditional Democrats are all gung-ho over immigration policy... and yet totally blind/deaf to what kind of effect illegal migrant workers does to wages.

Not for the Democrats no. It means that they get the votes of millions of people who can now vote, and claim that they listened to the wishes of the Hispanic community, and as wages get deflated it means more people on some form of government assistance so who is going to vote for the GOP which favours smaller government?

As far as the Unions go, well they blindly followed this Administration over the ACA without realising what it would do to them, so their stance over immigration doesn't surprise me.

Many unions aren't suportive actually. The ones that are, are trying to recruit them into unions now. This whole thing is part of that.

Maybe it's just my area (Cincinnati, Ohio), or maybe it's because in college I worked in a restraunt with a lot of immigrants (dunno if they were illegal), but I don't have a problem with the immigrants that work at these types of jobs (though I agree, Frazz, they could speak better Engrish). Mostly because, from my experience, they work significantly harder than, for lack of a better term, "white trash." I've seen a lot of "good ole boy 'Murican's" that like to bitch and moan about illegal immigration "taking their jobs" but in reality they have no interest in working to begin with when Uncle Sam is paying their way.


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 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

As far as the Unions go, well they blindly followed this Administration over the ACA without realising what it would do to them, so their stance over immigration doesn't surprise me.

No kidding, right?

 cincydooley wrote:
Maybe it's just my area (Cincinnati, Ohio), or maybe it's because in college I worked in a restraunt with a lot of immigrants (dunno if they were illegal), but I don't have a problem with the immigrants that work at these types of jobs (though I agree, Frazz, they could speak better Engrish). Mostly because, from my experience, they work significantly harder than, for lack of a better term, "white trash." I've seen a lot of "good ole boy 'Murican's" that like to bitch and moan about illegal immigration "taking their jobs" but in reality they have no interest in working to begin with when Uncle Sam is paying their way.

Legal immigrant isn't the problem.

It's those "undocumented labor force" that's the problem.

No, and I'm right with you, but the jobs that the illegals typically find themselves in are the ones all the lazy white trash don't want to do anyways.

I have problems with illegal immigration, but mostly in their use of our social services without putting into the system. I have much less of a problem with them coming here to work.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I'm all for a living minimum wage. Best of luck to the fast food workers striking at the fat clogged heart of America.

............................................................................

Major corporations, banks etc start at about 14-15 dollars an hour, which is much more demanding and requiring more life skills.


Fast food is not a career and should not be paid like one

Most workers are underpaid and undervalued, regardless of the industry they work in. It doesn't matter if your are scrubbing toilets, flipping burgers, or working in any other unskilled role; you should be able to live on the wage you earn - you shouldn't have to have a "career" to be able to afford to keep a roof over your head and food on the table.

People can survive just fine on the current minimum wage. If they can't, then they need to consider getting a second job. I work 3 jobs (teach at a university, work in research, and do consulting part-time). If they want to "live big", then maybe they should work harder.

 cincydooley wrote:
Maybe it's just my area (Cincinnati, Ohio), or maybe it's because in college I worked in a restraunt with a lot of immigrants (dunno if they were illegal), but I don't have a problem with the immigrants that work at these types of jobs (though I agree, Frazz, they could speak better Engrish). Mostly because, from my experience, they work significantly harder than, for lack of a better term, "white trash." I've seen a lot of "good ole boy 'Murican's" that like to bitch and moan about illegal immigration "taking their jobs" but in reality they have no interest in working to begin with when Uncle Sam is paying their way.

Agreed on all points. My only issue is that, at least in Texas, I pretty much guarantee that these hardworking folks aren't legal yet.
Close the door behind them, and moon Mexico while chanting "hah hah we got all your hard workers now hah hah..."

Just keep in mind folks...

The higher the wage... you'll see more and more automation.

Also, some Fast Food companies are looking to to have places like India provide the "remote" ordering voice... rather paying for someone locally to do that.

The point is, if the wage goes up, don't be surprise when businesses starts looking to drive down cost by offsite services and/or more automation.

Frankly... I just wish they'd hurry up with the touchscreen ordering interfaces at driveups...

I thought BK already did that when you went through the dirve through. I am now surprised.

If I was in charge of McDonalds, and the big McD's was a corporate empire instead of a large chain of franchises, I would have fired the ENTIRE human staff by now. I would replace them with machines and one to two guys in back to repair the machines and load fresh burger patties. We have the tech for this. It was called an automat or something like that back in the day.

Labor is one of the largest expenses in any possible endeavour I can do better by my stockholders and my staff teams by reducing it significantly.

My only thought is that the blowback from firing that many people would be crippling to business.

People get fidgety when you start talking about machines replacing humans.

Id be more worried about the blowback in your burger if they don't get it?

 daedalus wrote:
My only thought is that the blowback from firing that many people would be crippling to business.

People get fidgety when you start talking about machines replacing humans.

Nah... just look at the regular food procession industry.

That candy bar you just bought? Was mixed / cooked / packaged by a machine...

 notprop wrote:
Id be more worried about the blowback in your burger if they don't get it?

If any staff "blowback" into a customer's burger because of a strop over the government not getting them get their way over an outrageous pay hike then maybe that person should consider their job prospects elsewhere.

 cincydooley wrote:
I keep hearing this "living wage" nonsense. To me a living wage doesn't include a cell phone. It doesn't include cable. It doesn't NEED to include a car payment. For people that need to make a "living wage" off of a fast food job, it sure as gak doesn't include paying student loans.

This is easily the one thing I agree with in this thread. I'm not saying that they're aren't people making sacrifices to pay the bills, but in my experience, plenty of people do not really have their priorities straight.

Also, for the record, a $15 an hour wage is more than local EMT workers, substitute teachers and correctional officers make in St. Louis, MO.

So, say burger flippers get $15 increase (or any significant increase)... about about them?

 whembly wrote:
Also, for the record, a $15 an hour wage is more than local EMT workers, substitute teachers and correctional officers make in St. Louis, MO.

So, say burger flippers get $15 increase (or any significant increase)... about about them?

You see the intent there now?

Wow, most of the Correctional Officers I know get paid a lot more than $15 an hour. Sounds like St. Louis may be stingy with greenbacks.

 Ahtman wrote:
Wow, most of the Correctional Officers I know get paid a lot more than $15 an hour. Sounds like St. Louis may be stingy with greenbacks.

Starting pay in Michigan is $16 an hour. Illinois seems to a be a good bit heftier at $20 an hour. Seems to just vary by state.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
though the jobs aren't careers, and never will be, due to the crappiness of the job market and the growing gap between rich and poor, its often the only thing offered to most people
so what, how do you survive when this is all that is offered to you?

Work harder, improve your skills, learn English. These are literally the jobs with the least effort required.
This is a union scam. They are trying to push for a higher minimum wage for everyone, while at the same time having an open door to illegal immigrants. Note the amount of signs not even in English.

I don't know about where you are, but here if you go into a McDonalds or Burger King no one you see will be a native English speaker, and these aren't legal immigrants either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
You know, it's kind of funny how people are insisting that these people don't "deserve" more than $X/hour. What happened to good old fashioned capitalism where the free market sets the price of labor? If fast food workers can negotiate $15/hour successfully then that is what their labor is worth. Don't like it? Offer to take the job for $14/hour and take that money.

I agree wholeheartedly. If they can negotiate for $15 an hour then more power to them. inversely the stores invlved should have the absolute right to terminate them on the spot.

I'm Canadian btw

And in some places, like the crappy city I live in, they are the only jobs one can really get, so unemployment is rampant amongst young people, they leave and the town drops in population and more and more businesses die
you should see the sad excuse for a shopping mall we have (2 floors, half the second floor is offices, cheaper then building an office building)
I don't have any money to go to school because I can't get a job-even if I could, they pay like crap.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I would replace them with machines and one to two guys in back to repair the machines and load fresh burger patties. We have the tech for this. It was called an automat or something like that back in the day.

Labor is one of the largest expenses in any possible endeavour I can do better by my stockholders and my staff teams by reducing it significantly.

Have you used the self-checkouts at the supermarket? I have tried them and I've found they absolutely do not perform a better job than a human as a whole - someone always screwed it up and needs a clerk to come fix whatever they did; and that's a fairly close parallel, I think. I agree this is eventually where we'll be but I don't think we're there yet.