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 Ghaz wrote:
Sorry, but you don't get points for clever list building. It dosnt matter what order you take the upgrades in, if at the end a model has a piece of wargear he's not allowed to have then your list is illegal.

So nob Bikers can only have slugga and choppa?

And what about the fact that the Ork FAQ specifically calls for "Clever List building"?

Also there has never been a declaration that the model is not allowed to have the items, just that the painboy is not allowed to purchase it(and in this case the painboy didn't purchase it).

On 2 seperate notes as well

Bikes are now given explicit permission to buy special weapons for 2 marines

And order.of upgrade refers to the listed order not buy this this this and then buy this

wargamer1985 wrote:
Page 88: lists the apoth's wargear

Page 164: (paraphrased slightly but in order from the book)
One vet may take company standard or relic

One vet may be upgraded to a champ....

One vet maybe upgraded to an apothecary takin a narth

The entire squad may take bikes

Any veteran may take bombs/shield

Any veteran may replace

Any veteran may take items from

Thee are 3 stat lines in the command squad entry

Veteran
Company Champion
Apothecary

The upgrade changes the models.classification due to the fact it has its own stat line

So, again, a Veteran has several different wargear / upgrade options. He is allowed to take more than one of them. At list building, you choose to take "Swap Chainsword for Grav Gun" AND "Upgrade to Apothecary", both of which are completely valid options for a Veteran. The rules give you express permission to take those options. At what point did you break any rules or what rules are there that say that is invalid. The different profiles is irrelevant, because it is not an Apothecary upgrading his wargear (which was the case in the last book), it is a Veteran upgrading both his wargear and his profile (both of which are allowed by the options written in the codex).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wargamer1985 wrote:
On 2 seperate notes as well

Bikes are now given explicit permission to buy special weapons for 2 marines

And order.of upgrade refers to the listed order not buy this this this and then buy this

Actually by this logic the Bikes still aren't allowed to buy special weapons, because the Errata added "Any model may replace his bolt pistol with a chainsword......free" to the list (at the end of it), so that option would be after the option to swap a chainsword for a special weapon, meaning you couldn't do that. Which is obviously absurd.

Where does it state the apothecary is a veteran.... WHERE??? Since it has now been proven you cannot get your rules out to prove it and don't use another armies faq to back your argument as it is not valid for C:SM. If you cannot provide a rule that state a model called one thing can also count as another then please refrain from further providing false information


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 84: Up to two space marine bikers may each take one item from the special weapons list

Which actually aldo backs the apothecary argument

wargamer1985 wrote:
Where does it state the apothecary is a veteran.... WHERE??? Since it has now been proven you cannot get your rules out to prove it and don't use another armies faq to back your argument as it is not valid for C:SM. If you cannot provide a rule that state a model called one thing can also count as another then please refrain from further providing false information

Where did anyone say that the Apothecary IS a Veteran? Are you trying to say that once he becomes one then he always was one? Because by that logic you can never have an Apothecary in the squad (The Unit Composition says "5 Veterans").

The Apothecary Upgrade and Special Weapon swaps are BOTH Options for Veterans. Neither is more important than the other, and there are no rules that state you can take one but not the other. The only rules you have are that Veterans can take any or all of their options as listed in the Codex.

Edit: If you read the Wargear section where the "Special Weapons List" is, it says you have to exchange a Bolter or Melee Weapon for the Special Weapon, and Bikes don't have either. So if you require that upgrades can only go in the order written, then per the FAQ, you still can't take Special Weapons because by the time you get to swapping a chainsword, you have already lost your opportunity to take a special weapon."

TehCheator wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
Where does it state the apothecary is a veteran.... WHERE??? Since it has now been proven you cannot get your rules out to prove it and don't use another armies faq to back your argument as it is not valid for C:SM. If you cannot provide a rule that state a model called one thing can also count as another then please refrain from further providing false information

Where did anyone say that the Apothecary IS a Veteran? Are you trying to say that once he becomes one then he always was one? Because by that logic you can never have an Apothecary in the squad (The Unit Composition says "5 Veterans").

The Apothecary Upgrade and Special Weapon swaps are BOTH Options for Veterans. Neither is more important than the other, and there are no rules that state you can take one but not the other. The only rules you have are that Veterans can take any or all of their options as listed in the Codex.

Edit: If you read the Wargear section where the "Special Weapons List" is, it says you have to exchange a Bolter or Melee Weapon for the Special Weapon, and Bikes don't have either. So if you require that upgrades can only go in the order written, then per the FAQ, you still can't take Special Weapons because by the time you get to swapping a chainsword, you have already lost your opportunity to take a special weapon."

At this point I would stop arguing, he's clearly very stubborn and his opinion will likely not be swayed no matter how much sense you make. I'm hoping that GW will address this as it's painfully clear to me that the Apothecary can now have Veteran wargear, however each person can read anything however they please. I'm confident it will be allowed and I fully plan on equipping my Apothecary with wargear.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

So nob Bikers can only have slugga and choppa?

No, because Nob biker is still a Nob. they don't get their own statline.

And again you fail to provide any rules back up.

A veteran has a stat lin

An apothecary has a stat line

If model a is a veteran he has access to all the gear veterans do

Now ypu chhose to upgrade model a to an apothecary. With his own stat line which congratulations just lost his veteran status due to the fact he has his own stat line.

Now get your rules out that state the model can be give 2 completely independant stat lines with 2 seperate nsmes simultaneously

wargamer1985 wrote:
And again you fail to provide any rules back up.

A veteran has a stat lin

An apothecary has a stat line

If model a is a veteran he has access to all the gear veterans do

Now ypu chhose to upgrade model a to an apothecary. With his own stat line which congratulations just lost his veteran status due to the fact he has his own stat line.

Now get your rules out that state the model can be give 2 completely independant stat lines with 2 seperate nsmes simultaneously

Show me the rules denying my permission to give my veteran both a Grav Rifle upgrade and an Apothecary upgrade as per their wargear entry. Page and Paragraph please. Also, please show me where in the rules it says an apothecary looses anything purchased upon becoming an Apothecary. Thanks, good luck.

Edit: Oh, also please don't use other armies FAQ's or Books to prove your assertion, thanks.

wargamer1985 wrote:
And again you fail to provide any rules back up.

A veteran has a stat lin

An apothecary has a stat line

If model a is a veteran he has access to all the gear veterans do

Now ypu chhose to upgrade model a to an apothecary. With his own stat line which congratulations just lost his veteran status due to the fact he has his own stat line.

Now get your rules out that state the model can be give 2 completely independant stat lines with 2 seperate nsmes simultaneously

I never said, and will never say, that he has 2 Stat Lines with 2 Names. You are claiming that the Upgrade to Apothecary somehow magically makes him lose all his wargear. Show me a rule that says that. I am saying you do this:

Start Making your List, Decide to put in a Command Squad (Right now the squad is 5 "Veterans")
Choose to upgrade one of the "Veterans" swapping his Bolt Pistol for a Power Fist and taking a Storm Shield (Still 5 "Veterans", one of them just took 2 upgrades).
Choose to upgrade another "Veteran" swapping his Chainsword for a Grav Gun and Upgrading him to an Apothecary (Now his name changes, so we have 4 "Veterans" and 1 "Apothecary").

Both of these sets of upgrades are allowed by the rules in the codex (namely the list of upgrades you can take). You are claiming the 2nd line is invalid, even though the first one isn't. Why? Both options (Taking a Grav Gun and Upgrading to an Apothecary) are options that are ONLY available to Veterans. If the Apothecary was never a veteran at any point in this situation, then how did he become an Apothecary in the first place?

Or are you claiming that the Apothecary upgrade somehow has to happen first? If so, please provide a rule that says that.

Permissive rules set and all requires that you show where an apothecary (and not a veteran) can take said grav rifle.

 Ghaz wrote:
Permissive rules set and all requires that you show where an apothecary (and not a veteran) can take said grav rifle.

The Apothecary never takes a special weapon.
A veteran takes it and then gets upgraded to an Apothecary.
That is our statement and that is what we are going to do.

If you disagree with that reasoning, could you provide a rule that says my permission is wrong?

 Ghaz wrote:
Permissive rules set and all requires that you show where an apothecary (and not a veteran) can take said grav rifle.

Certainly here is my permission for my veteran to take the following upgrades listed on Page 164 of the Codex space marines. My veteran is given permission to purchase any of the war gear options, he is also given permission to take the Apothecary upgrade gaining him a narth. Please show me where I am denied permission for taking said upgrades. Please show me where any options are taken away from my Apothecary.

The order of upgrades isn't as important as the end result. An Apothecary does not have access to special weapons upgrades, so an Apothecary with a special weapon is an illegal Apothecary. We know from the Painboy FAQ that we can't use order of upgrades shenanigans to give upgrades to models that don't have the option of taking them. We know from the Shoota Boyz Nob FAQ that we can manipulate the order to get certain end results.

Taken together, we know we can manipulate the order of operations, but we can't use it to get options on a model that doesn't have access to those options. So there is no way to get a Special Weapon on an Apothecary, because only Veterans can have Special Weapons and an Apothecary is not a Veteran.

Kangodo wrote:
The Apothecary never takes a special weapon.
A veteran takes it and then gets upgraded to an Apothecary.
That is our statement and that is what we are going to do.

If you disagree with that reasoning, could you provide a rule that says my permission is wrong?

I'm not even arguing a timing to it, I think it works just as well if both upgrades happen simultaneously, since both of them require the model to be a Veteran, and once you purchase the upgrades they are paid for and he has the items.

To the original question, the Permission is given by the Codex, which has a list of upgrades that models can take. If one of the models has permission to upgrade to an Apothecary (which is obviously true), then at the exact same time, that same model (which must currently be a Veteran in order for him to even think about becoming an Apothecary) also has permission to swap his chainsword for a Grav Gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:
The order of upgrades isn't as important as the end result. An Apothecary does not have access to special weapons upgrades, so an Apothecary with a special weapon is an illegal Apothecary. We know from the Painboy FAQ that we can't use order of upgrades shenanigans to give upgrades to models that don't have the option of taking them. We know from the Shoota Boyz Nob FAQ that we can manipulate the order to get certain end results.

Taken together, we know we can manipulate the order of operations, but we can't use it to get options on a model that doesn't have access to those options. So there is no way to get a Special Weapon on an Apothecary, because only Veterans can have Special Weapons and an Apothecary is not a Veteran.

While that might be what GW intended, FAQs for the Ork Codex have no relevance to the SM Codex. And there is no rule anywhere that says anything about illegal models. As long as you follow the rules you are given then you are fine.

Each model has a stat line ghat stat line determins what it is. Secondly order of upgrade is important. GW's order of upgrade is writen as the order in the book.

Secondly. Instead of calling for the correct ruling to be proven. And since you have been called out first to provide your supposed evidence.

GW write everything in a specific order for a reason.

And by stating an apothecary can take upgrades like a veteran you are stating he has 2 stat lines since a veteran and an apothecary have 1 statline each. But tell you what if you want to spend points on making your list illegal go ahead because as some one elsealready pointed out. Apothecarys cannot access gear. So the moment you upgrade to an apothecary you loose access to the veterans upgrades options

TehCheator wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
The Apothecary never takes a special weapon.
A veteran takes it and then gets upgraded to an Apothecary.
That is our statement and that is what we are going to do.

If you disagree with that reasoning, could you provide a rule that says my permission is wrong?

I'm not even arguing a timing to it, I think it works just as well if both upgrades happen simultaneously, since both of them require the model to be a Veteran, and once you purchase the upgrades they are paid for and he has the items.

To the original question, the Permission is given by the Codex, which has a list of upgrades that models can take. If one of the models has permission to upgrade to an Apothecary (which is obviously true), then at the exact same time, that same model (which must currently be a Veteran in order for him to even think about becoming an Apothecary) also has permission to swap his chainsword for a Grav Gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:
The order of upgrades isn't as important as the end result. An Apothecary does not have access to special weapons upgrades, so an Apothecary with a special weapon is an illegal Apothecary. We know from the Painboy FAQ that we can't use order of upgrades shenanigans to give upgrades to models that don't have the option of taking them. We know from the Shoota Boyz Nob FAQ that we can manipulate the order to get certain end results.

Taken together, we know we can manipulate the order of operations, but we can't use it to get options on a model that doesn't have access to those options. So there is no way to get a Special Weapon on an Apothecary, because only Veterans can have Special Weapons and an Apothecary is not a Veteran.

While that might be what GW intended, FAQs for the Ork Codex have no relevance to the SM Codex. And there is no rule anywhere that says anything about illegal models. As long as you follow the rules you are given then you are fine.

If the Ork FAQs aren't relevant, then you don't have anything to support manipulating order of upgrades. So show me in the codex where it says an Apothecary can have a special weapon. Not a Veteran, an Apothecary. Including the relevant FAQs of course.

wargamer1985 wrote:
Each model has a stat line ghat stat line determins what it is. Secondly order of upgrade is important. GW's order of upgrade is writen as the order in the book.

Secondly. Instead of calling for the correct ruling to be proven. And since you have been called out first to provide your supposed evidence.

GW write everything in a specific order for a reason.

And by stating an apothecary can take upgrades like a veteran you are stating he has 2 stat lines since a veteran and an apothecary have 1 statline each. But tell you what if you want to spend points on making your list illegal go ahead because as some one elsealready pointed out. Apothecarys cannot access gear. So the moment you upgrade to an apothecary you loose access to the veterans upgrades options

Okay, so the options can only be taken in the order they are written, that's your argument? Let's take a look at the SM Bikers unit. With the new FAQ that adds an option to the end of the list, they have these options (in order):

Up to 2 Bikers May take items from the Special Weapons list.
Any Biker may exchange his Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword.

So assuming you have to go in the order listed, you first have to trade a Melee weapon for a Special Weapon. Whoops! You don't have a Melee weapon, so I guess you can't take any special weapons. Now that that's over with, here you go, you can trade a Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword! Well crap! Too bad I couldn't do that first, I guess that means Bikes can't take any Special Weapons either.

Also, where is the rule that says you have to go in order, it appears to me like you are just given a set of options and can pick and choose from them as desired and they all happen simultaneously.

As for your last point, of course you lose access to the Veteran upgrades as soon as you upgrade to an Apothecary. Luckily, with the rules as currently written, that doesn't matter, because you can buy all your upgrades at the same time, and the only thing that matters is that you have access when you buy it. Once the options are done, it is irrelevant that the Apothecary can't take more wargear, because he already has it. There are no rules anywhere saying that if you lose access to something you also lose that wargear.

TehCheator wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
Each model has a stat line ghat stat line determins what it is. Secondly order of upgrade is important. GW's order of upgrade is writen as the order in the book.

Secondly. Instead of calling for the correct ruling to be proven. And since you have been called out first to provide your supposed evidence.

GW write everything in a specific order for a reason.

And by stating an apothecary can take upgrades like a veteran you are stating he has 2 stat lines since a veteran and an apothecary have 1 statline each. But tell you what if you want to spend points on making your list illegal go ahead because as some one elsealready pointed out. Apothecarys cannot access gear. So the moment you upgrade to an apothecary you loose access to the veterans upgrades options

Okay, so the options can only be taken in the order they are written, that's your argument? Let's take a look at the SM Bikers unit. With the new FAQ that adds an option to the end of the list, they have these options (in order):

Up to 2 Bikers May take items from the Special Weapons list.
Any Biker may exchange his Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword.

So assuming you have to go in the order listed, you first have to trade a Melee weapon for a Special Weapon. Whoops! You don't have a Melee weapon, so I guess you can't take any special weapons. Now that that's over with, here you go, you can trade a Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword! Well crap! Too bad I couldn't do that first, I guess that means Bikes can't take any Special Weapons either.

Also, where is the rule that says you have to go in order, it appears to me like you are just given a set of options and can pick and choose from them as desired and they all happen simultaneously.

As for your last point, of course you lose access to the Veteran upgrades as soon as you upgrade to an Apothecary. Luckily, with the rules as currently written, that doesn't matter, because you can buy all your upgrades at the same time, and the only thing that matters is that you have access when you buy it. Once the options are done, it is irrelevant that the Apothecary can't take more wargear, because he already has it. There are no rules anywhere saying that if you lose access to something you also lose that wargear.

Additionally, there are rules that prevent unit X from upgrading into unit Y by stating that you need to replace equipment that a model might not have if you had purchased other wargear. For instance the Champion literally 2 options above the apothecary prevents you from purchasing wargear and upgrading because he has to replace items. The apothecary only gains something, looses nothing.

You do not have to trade a weapon. I quoted the entry word for word for bikers

And you still fail to provide any evidence to back your arugument from the BRB or BRB faq

Chrysis wrote:
If the Ork FAQs aren't relevant, then you don't have anything to support manipulating order of upgrades. So show me in the codex where it says an Apothecary can have a special weapon. Not a Veteran, an Apothecary. Including the relevant FAQs of course.

See my post above about the process of making a list. I'm not saying there is an order, I'm saying all upgrades happen at the same time. According to the codex, a Veteran has the option of taking a Grav Gun. He also has the option of taking a Power Fist. He ALSO has the option of upgrading to an Apothecary. Those are written in the Codex (and the SM FAQ), giving you permission to do them. You have permission to do any or all of them, as you see fit. Why is it okay to follow the rules and take a Grav Gun and Power Fist, but not okay to take a Grav Gun and Apothecary upgrade? They are all written the same way, and you are given permission to do all of them in the Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wargamer1985 wrote:
You do not have to trade a weapon. I quoted the entry word for word for bikers

And you still fail to provide any evidence to back your arugument from the BRB or BRB faq

Read the Wargear Page, under the entry "Special Weapons List," which specifically says "A model may exchange his Bolter or Melee Weapon for one of the following:"

And my argument has nothing to do with the BRB, the SM Codex specifically lists out the upgrade options that are available to the squad. If an Apothecary doesn't start out as a Veteran, then how did he become an Apothecary?

TehCheator wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
If the Ork FAQs aren't relevant, then you don't have anything to support manipulating order of upgrades. So show me in the codex where it says an Apothecary can have a special weapon. Not a Veteran, an Apothecary. Including the relevant FAQs of course.

See my post above about the process of making a list. I'm not saying there is an order, I'm saying all upgrades happen at the same time. According to the codex, a Veteran has the option of taking a Grav Gun. He also has the option of taking a Power Fist. He ALSO has the option of upgrading to an Apothecary. Those are written in the Codex (and the SM FAQ), giving you permission to do them. You have permission to do any or all of them, as you see fit. Why is it okay to follow the rules and take a Grav Gun and Power Fist, but not okay to take a Grav Gun and Apothecary upgrade? They are all written the same way, and you are given permission to do all of them in the Codex.

Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?

Page 2 1st paragraph final sentence specifically states a model is its stat line. Therefor paying to upgrade a veteran to an apothecary looses it veteran status on the grounds of having its own unique profile.

Weapons:
Page51 para 7 allows pistols to be used as a ccw and thefor allows the replacement of said pistol with a special

Now. You.have forced me to prove how wrong you are with the apothecary via the brb so get yours out and provide page para and line numbers that you claim allow you to do so

Chrysis wrote:
Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?

That's a fair point, and my only argument (admittedly weak) against that is that requiring the order they are listed would cause issues with sequential upgrades (such as the SM Biker one I mentioned above). It really makes me wish that GW had a better, more concrete ruleset, but 16 years and counting and they haven't even really tried.

FWIW I think the RaI always was that you can't take upgrades on them, otherwise they would most likely have listed the Apothecary specifically in the upgrades section as being able to take wargear.

This is very much like buying marks for cultists and then turn them into zombies thing. Order of operations clearly doesn't matter but GW likes only making specific guidelines. the CSM FAQ only says if they're zombies the only thing you can do is buy more zombies. They should've put it in the BrB what their intention on upgrades was.

Sorry if someone made this point, one and a half pages of "yes", "no" was all I could do.

I can see this argument going either way.

But I am a fluff bunny, and my Apothecary will always have a Bolt Pistol to give the Emperor's Mercy to his brothers.

Wouldn't want him to ease their suffering by melting their face or crushing them in their armor...

 d-usa wrote:
I can see this argument going either way.

But I am a fluff bunny, and my Apothecary will always have a Bolt Pistol to give the Emperor's Mercy to his brothers.

Wouldn't want him to ease their suffering by melting their face or crushing them in their armor...

Isn't a bolt shell basically a small grenade? I don't think blowing their head up is much better.

Maybe they carry around an autopistol too, or a laspistol.

TehCheator wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?

That's a fair point, and my only argument (admittedly weak) against that is that requiring the order they are listed would cause issues with sequential upgrades (such as the SM Biker one I mentioned above). It really makes me wish that GW had a better, more concrete ruleset, but 16 years and counting and they haven't even really tried.

FWIW I think the RaI always was that you can't take upgrades on them, otherwise they would most likely have listed the Apothecary specifically in the upgrades section as being able to take wargear.

The bikers entry is only a problem if you believe the Bolt Pistol isn't a Melee weapon outside the Assault Phase, at which point you run head long into the "No Specified Melee Weapon" rule on page 51. Strict army list order is more of a problem for Chaos, where the Marks are after the Artefacts which would mean no one could take the Axe of Blind Fury. So we "know" we can do them in an order outside the listed one, but it is only stated explicitly in the Ork FAQ. The Ork FAQ also states that the order can't be used to get options on models that don't have those options (Painboy). There's no way to introduce explicit support for anything other than strict list ordering without also introducing a prohibition on granting wargear to models that don't have the option for that wargear.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I can see this argument going either way.

But I am a fluff bunny, and my Apothecary will always have a Bolt Pistol to give the Emperor's Mercy to his brothers.

Wouldn't want him to ease their suffering by melting their face or crushing them in their armor...

Isn't a bolt shell basically a small grenade? I don't think blowing their head up is much better.

Maybe they carry around an autopistol too, or a laspistol.

It's what the Emperor wants!

Chrysis wrote:
Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?

In the rulebook.
They have a dozen options, I pick my options.
Since the BRB doesn't tell us if it's simultaneous or one by one, I can decide for myself.