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We've been having this discussion in several threads in the same time, so I would like to focus it in one thread.

A Veteran can take different weapons, like a grav-gun.
A Veteran can upgrade to an Apothecary, taking a Narthecium.
To me this means I can give the Veteran a Grav-gun, then upgrade him to an Apothecary.

What is your Call?

Yes, yes it does. This is a change from the last edition, and a very positive one.

I disagree. Wargear is restricted by model type and you can't just get around that by upgrading the wargear before changing the model's type.

GW is very careful with wording their squad upgrades, there's a reason why some options start with "so-and-so may take..." and some start with "any model may take..." and given that both versions can appear under the same unit, we can be sure the distinction is intentional.

The Ork FAQ says Painboys can't get Nob upgrades and their situation is pretty much identical.

The Painboy cannot take those upgrades; but he could as a nob and those upgrades will stay.

It has to be this way or Nob Bikers can take nothing(They're not Nobs).

Also that very same FAQ tells you that the order of upgrades is important(Shoota Boyz and their Nob).

Ork Pain Boy is not comparable.
I don't think you can ever compare "Da Ork kodeks, cuz day hef to taip weird to make it vunny!"

(Well, keep that Ork-speak out of the rules please )

Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.

No it doesn't because it says the pain boy replaces his slugga and choppa for 'urty syringe and the nob special weapons require you to exchange those. The FAQ also says that a pain boy can't take the bosspole, waaagh! banner, eavy armour or ammo runt upgrades.

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.

No it doesn't because it says the pain boy replaces his slugga and choppa for 'urty syringe and the nob special weapons require you to exchange those. The FAQ also says that a pain boy can't take the bosspole, waaagh! banner, eavy armour or ammo runt upgrades.

You've been able to give a Boy a Big Shoota and then upgrade him to a Nob since the Ork Codex was first released. This is exactly the same situation.

No because the pain boy situation he must give up weapons to acquire new weapons that give the pain boy his abilities. Thus you have one of two situations the painboy can't upgrade to new weapons because he had to exchange them already or you can't upgrade a nob with a PK to a pain boy because a requirement of that is to give up your slugga and choppa which he already got rid of.

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.

No it doesn't because it says the pain boy replaces his slugga and choppa for 'urty syringe and the nob special weapons require you to exchange those. The FAQ also says that a pain boy can't take the bosspole, waaagh! banner, eavy armour or ammo runt upgrades.

Given the situations that others have already pointed out (sparing me the necessity of digging out the ork codex, so thanks everybody! ) it seems clear that the limitations on the Painboy are specific caveats, not a blanket restriction on sequential upgrades in general.

Does the way they handled the bike situation give some guidance on this. They added that bikers may replace their bolt pistol with a chainsword, the obvious implication being that once you replace the chainsword you can then take special weapons.

If upgrades all happened concurrently, then you wouldn't be able to swap a chainsword for a special weapon, since you'd have to do two replacements at the same time. As such, they clearly happen consecutively.

If that's the case, then I would think you'd be able to do the same thing concerning special weapons, and sequentially take a special weapon, then upgrade him to an Apothecary.

In fact, it should be possible to get a Company Champion with a special weapon. 1. Replace bolt pistol with boltgun*. 2. replace boltgun with special weapon. 3. upgrade to company champion by replacing chainsword.

Using that order, you should be able to get a company champion with a special weapon.

*I still contend that bolt pistols are melee weapons, based upon the implications for many units of the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51, but whatever, stuff works right so I'll leave it...for now

Firstly, veterans in the command squad can't take special weapons anymore...

Its very clearly worded. One veteran can be upgraded to an apothecary, taking a med kit. He is then an apothecary. Apothecaries have no other options in the unit (beyond bikes).

rossatdi wrote:
Firstly, veterans in the command squad can't take special weapons anymore...
Its very clearly worded. One veteran can be upgraded to an apothecary, taking a med kit. He is then an apothecary. Apothecaries have no other options in the unit (beyond bikes).

We're talking about this in light of the FAQ that just came down: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3450050a_Space_Marines_v1.0_SEPTEMBER13.pdf

DogofWar1 wrote:
Does the way they handled the bike situation give some guidance on this. They added that bikers may replace their bolt pistol with a chainsword, the obvious implication being that once you replace the chainsword you can then take special weapons.

If upgrades all happened concurrently, then you wouldn't be able to swap a chainsword for a special weapon, since you'd have to do two replacements at the same time. As such, they clearly happen consecutively.

If that's the case, then I would think you'd be able to do the same thing concerning special weapons, and sequentially take a special weapon, then upgrade him to an Apothecary.

In fact, it should be possible to get a Company Champion with a special weapon. 1. Replace bolt pistol with boltgun*. 2. replace boltgun with special weapon. 3. upgrade to company champion by replacing chainsword.

Using that order, you should be able to get a company champion with a special weapon.

*I still contend that bolt pistols are melee weapons, based upon the implications for many units of the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51, but whatever, stuff works right so I'll leave it...for now

I concur. (With everything except the part about bolt pistols being melee weapons for upgrade purposes. )

Good job for ignoring the entire thread (Y)

DogofWar1 wrote:
Does the way they handled the bike situation give some guidance on this. They added that bikers may replace their bolt pistol with a chainsword, the obvious implication being that once you replace the chainsword you can then take special weapons.
If upgrades all happened concurrently, then you wouldn't be able to swap a chainsword for a special weapon, since you'd have to do two replacements at the same time. As such, they clearly happen consecutively.
If that's the case, then I would think you'd be able to do the same thing concerning special weapons, and sequentially take a special weapon, then upgrade him to an Apothecary.
In fact, it should be possible to get a Company Champion with a special weapon. 1. Replace bolt pistol with boltgun*. 2. replace boltgun with special weapon. 3. upgrade to company champion by replacing chainsword.
Using that order, you should be able to get a company champion with a special weapon.

That's exactly what I thought!
The FAQ is a clear message that you may first take upgrade A, then B.

I still contend that bolt pistols are melee weapons, based upon the implications for many units of the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51, but whatever, stuff works right so I'll leave it...for now

You do know that this allows for Tactical Marines with Special Weapon ánd Boltgun?

Me? I was ignoring the entire thread? What did I do?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You've been able to give a Boy a Big Shoota and then upgrade him to a Nob since the Ork Codex was first released. This is exactly the same situation.

Not at all the same situation.
Boys squads comprise of Boys and a Nob.
The Big Shoota is an upgrade for any Ork in the mob. It's not restricted to just boys.
You're talking about taking an upgrade for a veteran on a model that isn't a veteran.

 grendel083 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You've been able to give a Boy a Big Shoota and then upgrade him to a Nob since the Ork Codex was first released. This is exactly the same situation.

Not at all the same situation.
Boys squads comprise of Boys and a Nob.
The Big Shoota is an upgrade for any Ork in the mob. It's not restricted to just boys.
You're talking about taking an upgrade for a veteran on a model that isn't a veteran.

I think the argument is that it IS a Veteran before you make it an apothecary.

 grendel083 wrote:
Not at all the same situation.
Boys squads comprise of Boys and a Nob.
The Big Shoota is an upgrade for any Ork in the mob. It's not restricted to just boys.
You're talking about taking an upgrade for a veteran on a model that isn't a veteran.

He's a Veteran the moment I give it to him
And can we leave Orks out of this? They are deliberately badly written because it 'sounds funny'.

I hope they don't do this with the next one.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Me? I was ignoring the entire thread? What did I do?

The guy above the guy above you :O

Kangodo wrote:

I still contend that bolt pistols are melee weapons, based upon the implications for many units of the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51, but whatever, stuff works right so I'll leave it...for now

You do know that this allows for Tactical Marines with Special Weapon ánd Boltgun?

Perhaps, but the alternative is that Tactical Marines get a free ccw based on the no specified melee weapon rule on page 51. If a bolt pistol is merely a melee multiplier, and not a melee weapon, then tactical marines would, as per that rule, be considered not to have a weapon of the melee type in their wargear, and therefore be treated as being armed with a ccw, which when combined with the bolt pistol means they have 2 melee weapons.

So, based on that rule, either bolt pistols have to be melee weapons so that tactical squads don't get a free one, or marines suddenly turned into grey hunters. The latter is obviously not the intention of GW (well...maybe Ward, but probably not others), so I have to conclude that bolt pistols are melee weapons.

This was debated at length in the C:SM 6th FAQ Answers (Discussion) thread as well. The FAQ basically pulled a Supreme Court, and made a ruling in the most narrow way possible while leaving other issues in the air.

REGARDLESS, GRAV GUNS FOR EVERYONE! (planet collapses from overlapping gravity fields)

DogofWar1 wrote:

rossatdi wrote:
Firstly, veterans in the command squad can't take special weapons anymore...
Its very clearly worded. One veteran can be upgraded to an apothecary, taking a med kit. He is then an apothecary. Apothecaries have no other options in the unit (beyond bikes).

We're talking about this in light of the FAQ that just came down: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3450050a_Space_Marines_v1.0_SEPTEMBER13.pdf

Jesus, that was quick!

However, the Apothecary still isn't a veteran, so he still can't take special weapons!

You can't 'trick' the swap out order so you give him a special weapon then upgrade him. You have to treat all options at the same time. I play bikes myself and wouldn't pull this. If I was feeling strongly about it a tournament, my case to the judge would be simple: "Is it a Veteran? No. Then he doesn't have access to Veteran upgrades."

Didn't we have this exact same discussion with DA codex? And, no you cannot do it. Upgrades in GW's books don't work like that.

I don't think so, because the Ravenwing Command Squad needs to replace their bolt pistol for the Narthecium.
And they cannot take special weapons so why discuss it?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Kel that the ork codex, if anything, supports the apothecary being able to take upgrades, rather than refutes it.

No it doesn't because it says the pain boy replaces his slugga and choppa for 'urty syringe and the nob special weapons require you to exchange those. The FAQ also says that a pain boy can't take the bosspole, waaagh! banner, eavy armour or ammo runt upgrades.

You've been able to give a Boy a Big Shoota and then upgrade him to a Nob since the Ork Codex was first released. This is exactly the same situation.

The big shoota can be given to any ork in the unit. You can give it to the Nob before or after upgrading him because he's still an ork. Different situation.

 Madcat87 wrote:
No because the pain boy situation he must give up weapons to acquire new weapons that give the pain boy his abilities. Thus you have one of two situations the painboy can't upgrade to new weapons because he had to exchange them already or you can't upgrade a nob with a PK to a pain boy because a requirement of that is to give up your slugga and choppa which he already got rid of.

I wasn't talking about his weapons, although you could waste points by giving a nob new weapons then paying to upgrade him to a painboy that will not have docs tools nor urty syringe.

I was talking about giving a nob eavy armour then upgrading him to a painboy, keeping the armour. The painboy cannot purchase the armour but the nob he was could. And this is supported elsewhere in the FAQ.

rossatdi wrote:
Jesus, that was quick!

However, the Apothecary still isn't a veteran, so he still can't take special weapons!

You can't 'trick' the swap out order so you give him a special weapon then upgrade him. You have to treat all options at the same time. I play bikes myself and wouldn't pull this. If I was feeling strongly about it a tournament, my case to the judge would be simple: "Is it a Veteran? No. Then he doesn't have access to Veteran upgrades."

2 Points go against you here. First, if you have to treat all upgrades at the same time, then regular SM Bike Squads (with the new FAQ) still can't take special weapons, because in order to take them you have to swap out your bolt pistol for a chainsword and then swap the chainsword for a special weapon.

Second, even if you require that all upgrades happen simultaneously, then the Apothecary can take a special weapon. You have a single Veteran model in the squad, you choose 2 of his upgrade options (Take a special weapon and upgrade to Apothecary). When you are choosing to do that, he IS a Veteran, so both are valid options for him to take. Now, you apply those upgrades simultaneously, so he takes his special weapon and picks up his Narthecium, becoming an Apothecary. He now has both. There's nothing in the rules that say he magically loses his special weapon when he upgrades to the Apothecary, so you can't just take it away because you don't like it.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I was talking about giving a nob eavy armour then upgrading him to a painboy, keeping the armour. The painboy cannot purchase the armour but the nob he was could. And this is supported elsewhere in the FAQ.

Why exactly would they bother to explicitly say that Painboyz can't buy wargear if they intended to allow this workaround? You can't support your creative reading by misapplying some other FAQ answer that directly contradicts the answer actually dealing with the issue at hand.

It's the same discussion as Shadowseers and Harlequin's Kiss. Of course, a Shadowseer could explicitly take a kiss in 4th codex.

So now we have two old codices that were different written out the same way for the new codex. Which means (barring an Errata) that following the old rules is wrong in at least one case.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/544162.page#5919596

Apothecary can now take special weapons, thank god I've been waiting for this day to re-create my deathwatch character.

It's all down to the order of operations

Veteran ---> upgrade with power fist ----> upgrade to apothecary ----> great success

Thankfully the apothecary entry doesn't say he replaces his wargear, so he's good.

Works the same way as giving a nob a big shoota

Ork boy ----> big shoota ----> upgrade to nob ----> great success

TehCheator wrote:
2 Points go against you here. First, if you have to treat all upgrades at the same time, then regular SM Bike Squads (with the new FAQ) still can't take special weapons, because in order to take them you have to swap out your bolt pistol for a chainsword and then swap the chainsword for a special weapon.

Second, even if you require that all upgrades happen simultaneously, then the Apothecary can take a special weapon. You have a single Veteran model in the squad, you choose 2 of his upgrade options (Take a special weapon and upgrade to Apothecary). When you are choosing to do that, he IS a Veteran, so both are valid options for him to take. Now, you apply those upgrades simultaneously, so he takes his special weapon and picks up his Narthecium, becoming an Apothecary. He now has both. There's nothing in the rules that say he magically loses his special weapon when he upgrades to the Apothecary, so you can't just take it away because you don't like it.

It's not an issue of timing at all. The end result of your interpretation is an illegal game state: a model type with wargear that cannot be accessed by that model type. The design principle here is clear, and has been consistent for at least the 15 years since I've been playing. A model can't take wargear unless it's allowed for models with its exact name. Just opening any older Codex that doesn't have squad leaders automatically included in units will make this obvious. By your interpretation, pretty much any non-Imperial faction could give special/heavy weapons to their squad leaders.