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Kangodo wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
Where do you get permission to apply them all at the same time rather than in the order they are listed?

In the rulebook.
They have a dozen options, I pick my options.
Since the BRB doesn't tell us if it's simultaneous or one by one, I can decide for myself.

"It doesn't say I can't" isn't a rules argument.

Are all upgrades always simultaneous? Or are they only simultaneous when it benefits you? If they're simultaneous, you still check the prerequisites before applying the upgrade right?

That's why I did not use it as an argument.
It says we can take upgrades => I take upgrades.
That results into a Veteran taking both the Grav-gun ánd Apothecary upgrade.

Might not be RAI, but at the same time it might be, so I will do it until they fix it.

"It doesn't say I can't take them simultaneously, so I'm going to" is exactly "It doesn't say I can't" as an argument.

But please, humour me.

Are all upgrades always simultaneous?
When do you check prerequisites?

No, it says I can take an upgrade. So I take an upgrade.
I am strictly following what the book says.

You want to force me to take them one by one, following the order in the list.
But where is that rule?

The "permissive-ruleset" has nothing to do with this discussion!
It only tells you if you are allowed to do something, the rules itself tell you how you should be doing that.
Permissive-ruleset only shows his head when I want to take upgrades. The BRB tells me I can take upgrades and 'permissive ruleset' is happy.

Taking upgrades simultaneously to circumvent a restriction is a little bit more than just taking upgrades. But let's leave that aside for now.

Are upgrades always simultaneous?
When are the prerequisites for an upgrade checked?

As a curiousity, I recall a Melee weapon that if you wound a model all other models with the same profile name and state line take wounds (or something to that effect). By the logic of some people in this thread the company champion and apoth would both be taking wounds if a Vet took the initial wound.

Trazyn the infinite has that rule. And he hurts all models with the same name.
Does the Veteran have the same name as the Apothecary at the time of the wounding?

Chrysis wrote:
Taking upgrades simultaneously to circumvent a restriction is a little bit more than just taking upgrades. But let's leave that aside for now.

It's only a "little more" if you accept that there is a restriction in the first place.

Are upgrades always simultaneous?

No, you can pick them in any order.
That is proven by the fact that some models first have to take "upgrade 5" before they unlock "upgrade 4".
I'm talking about stuff like Bikers, who first need to upgrade their pistol to a chainsword before being able to take Special Weapons.

When are the prerequisites for an upgrade checked?

The moment you take the upgrade.

congratulations you finally got it right.. Yes you put it dfferently but you still admit it

You state you check if you meet the requirement for the upgrade when taking it. So you buy your grav gun or what ever hen check. You meet the requirements. Now you buy your apothecary upgrade for the same model. HOWEVER you need to check you still gain access to the armory. You don't as you are now an apothecary not not a veteran as per page 2 paea 1 final sentence of the BRB Now unless tou can provide a rules counter not an opinion which is all you have done so far please admit you have een wrong


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I state this because it is clearly supposed to be done one of 2 ways the majority say order of the list heck im even willing to allow simultaneously upgrading. But you have no rule that states you can buy in any order you want and given it is a permissive rule set which does have a bearing on this discussion you do not have permission to upgrade in whatever order you want

wargamer1985 wrote:
HOWEVER you need to check you still gain access to the armory.

Please prove this assertion.

I agree with Rigeld2, could you please prove that claim?
My book doesn't say anything about 'checking if you can still have that upgrade', so I am following the rules exactly like they are written there.

And can you give me the page that tells me how to upgrade and in what order?
Because due to FAQ's and other stuff we have a lot of units who replace their pistol with a chainsword BEFORE upgrading anything.
That's a clear sign that the order doesn't matter.

And where does it say that at the end you can have an illegal option? Page and paragraph please.

1) It's not illegal.
2) Page 164 and the FAQ.

Not sure why no one has said before, but on page 88 of the codex it specifically lists the equipment an apothecary has. Power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag+krak grenades and Narthecium

So doing it in the order people want, upgrade a veteran with a fancy gun, then upgrade to an apothecary, the kit list on page 88 for the apothecary come into effect overwriting the fancy gun upgrade. And since he's now an apothecary not a veteran, we can't buy veteran upgrades for him.

Because you don't replace him with an Apothecary.
Other codices do have this wording where they replace the Wargear, but this unit does not have this wording.

I would also like to add to this thread for the posters claiming that "You must take upgrades in the order they are listed." That the FAQ states "add the following to the list." When allowing the purchase of special weapons. It does not tell you where in the list to place this new rule. If order in the list were important would the FAQ not state where in the list to add said upgrade?

The earlier section of the book listing an apothecaries equipment has no baring on what he has after purchasing upgrades. When do you check if you have an illegal selection? At no point is the selection illegal. You are purchasing upgrades for a Veteran of which an Apothecary is one — an upgrade.

It follows the sad logic people are using of I use this check to buy this then do that... It is straight forward. Page 2 para 1 final sentence brb states the model is its stat line.

In this flipping case once you upgrade a member of the unit to an apothecary he is NO LONGER A VETERAN AS HE IS NOT CALLED A VETERAN APOTHECARY it is plain clear simple english. The apothecary cannot take other upgrades


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And ckaiming an Apothecary is still a veteran look at the section of the rule book you all keep ignoring

Nobody ignores that.
Nobody takes upgrades on an Apothecary.
They take the upgrade while he's still a Veteran.

Maybe they'll FAQ it to "One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, replacing his Chainsword for a Chainsword and a Narthecium."
That would 'fix' the 'problem' and changing the current ruling that allows special weapons.

 d-usa wrote:
But I am a fluff bunny, and my Apothecary will always have a Bolt Pistol to give the Emperor's Mercy to his brothers.

Wouldn't want him to ease their suffering by melting their face or crushing them in their armor...

Isn't that what his Carnifex is for?

 Slinky wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
But I am a fluff bunny, and my Apothecary will always have a Bolt Pistol to give the Emperor's Mercy to his brothers.

Wouldn't want him to ease their suffering by melting their face or crushing them in their armor...

Isn't that what his Carnifex is for?

Never seen an Apothecary use a Carnifex before...
To they raise them as pets, or use them as guard-dogs?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Slinky wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
But I am a fluff bunny, and my Apothecary will always have a Bolt Pistol to give the Emperor's Mercy to his brothers.

Wouldn't want him to ease their suffering by melting their face or crushing them in their armor...

Isn't that what his Carnifex is for?

Never seen an Apothecary use a Carnifex before...
To they raise them as pets, or use them as guard-dogs?

Heh

It's the name of their captive bolt gun used to administer the Emperor's peace (see WD 40k Compendium)

So it is!
So that's where they got the name from.
Every day is a school day.

rigeld2 wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
HOWEVER you need to check you still gain access to the armory.

Please prove this assertion.

Following the reasoning you need to maintain your armoury to keep a weapon upgrade, then Farsight when taken in an Enclaves list has no warlord trait as he no longer has access to the table with his fixed warlord trait.

Just my two cents on the OP's question. Apothecary is a word used to describe what the model does. If an apothecary was a DIFFERENT UNIT it would have its own statline..but as such the apothecary uses the VETERAN statline still...so he is a veteran, and he can take whatever veterans take.

He will only stop being a veteran when they give him a unique statline.

They gave him a unique statline.

 Isean wrote:
Just my two cents on the OP's question. Apothecary is a word used to describe what the model does. If an apothecary was a DIFFERENT UNIT it would have its own statline..but as such the apothecary uses the VETERAN statline still...so he is a veteran, and he can take whatever veterans take.

He will only stop being a veteran when they give him a unique statline.

He has a unique statline and he has a unique equipment profile

So looking through things because I was bored I noticed GW making different rulings on an identical issue (Yeah I know, GW being inconsistent? Gasp!)
We all know GWs feelings on Painboyz and upgrades, as that ruling has been in effect since 5th edition.

However, if anyone still has the 4th edition Dark Angels codex (the one that was just replaced) please look at the last option for Deathwing Terminators. Then compare what it says to the current issue. Go ahead I'll wait.
...
...
...
Ok are you back? Cool, now check this out. This is from the last 5th edition FAQ, and I believe it was in the 6th edition FAQ for DA until the new codex was released:

Q. When I upgrade Deathwing and Ravenwing models
to Standard Bearers and/or Apothecaries, can they still
use items such as lightning claws, thunder hammers
and storm shields, assault cannons, meltaguns, flamers
and plasma guns? (p81)
A. Yes, because they are extraordinary individuals!

I underlined the important bit. So according to GW Deathwing Apothecaries were able to take Terminator-only upgrades...hmmm...the plot thickens.

 Happyjew wrote:
So looking through things because I was bored I noticed GW making different rulings on an identical issue (Yeah I know, GW being inconsistent? Gasp!)
We all know GWs feelings on Painboyz and upgrades, as that ruling has been in effect since 5th edition.

However, if anyone still has the 4th edition Dark Angels codex (the one that was just replaced) please look at the last option for Deathwing Terminators. Then compare what it says to the current issue. Go ahead I'll wait.
...
...
...
Ok are you back? Cool, now check this out. This is from the last 5th edition FAQ, and I believe it was in the 6th edition FAQ for DA until the new codex was released:

Q. When I upgrade Deathwing and Ravenwing models
to Standard Bearers and/or Apothecaries, can they still
use items such as lightning claws, thunder hammers
and storm shields, assault cannons, meltaguns, flamers
and plasma guns? (p81)
A. Yes, because they are extraordinary individuals!

I underlined the important bit. So according to GW Deathwing Apothecaries were able to take Terminator-only upgrades...hmmm...the plot thickens.

This is why I am strongly of the opinion they get to keep their upgrades. I played Deathwing before the release of the 6th ed DA codex.

It definitley proves one thing...
Games Workshop like to change their minds.

As of right now, this is what we have:
Orks (Painboy) - cannot take upgrades via FAQ.
BA (Furioso Librarian) - loses all wargear, cannot take upgrades via BA codex/FAQ
DA (DW Apothecary) - could take upgrades but that was an old codex.

So as it stands, if we assume that each unit (not including Orks) takes options in the order of the bullet points, then the only issue comes in on SM Bike squads. However, I believe it is logical that the added option of swapping for a CCW would be in between adding more bikers and taking weapons from Special Weapons. This would of course mean that Apothecaries would not be able to take Veteran upgrades.

IRRC it was a Dark Eldar Melee weapon. So would those that believe that the apoth can take a special weapon take a wound on the apoth if a Vet was hit and wounded by this weapon that I perviously mentioned?