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 Big Blind Bill wrote:

You are right, IC's count as another unit for the purposes of calculating reserves, even if with another unit.

It's just another case of GW not knowing what their rules say. If they FAQ ommited the line I would be happy.

 juraigamer wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

You are right, IC's count as another unit for the purposes of calculating reserves, even if with another unit.

It's just another case of GW not knowing what their rules say. If they FAQ ommited the line I would be happy.

An IC never counts as a unit for reserves purposes if it's embarked on a transport that must start in reserve.

Example:
5 model Tac squad
Marneus Calgar
Drop Pod

I have 2 units that count for reserve.
Embark the Tac squad in the Drop Pod.
I now must follow the rule clarified here:

GW FAQ wrote:Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in
reserve count towards the num ber of units that can be placed in
Reserves? For e xample , must I count the units in a Drop Pod or
Valkyrie towards the 50%of units I can place in Reserves?
(p124)
A: No.

Since the Tac Squad is a unit embarked on a vehicle that must start in reserve, it is not counted. I have 1 unit that counts for reserve.

I embark Marneus into the Drop Pod (permitted because he's joining the currently embarked unit).
He still counts as an extra unit, but the above FAQ says to ignore any unit embarked on a transport that must start in reserve. Therefore to count him would be breaking the rules.
I have 0 units that count for reserve.

Please cite actual rules that disagree.

 juraigamer wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

You are right, IC's count as another unit for the purposes of calculating reserves, even if with another unit.

It's just another case of GW not knowing what their rules say. If they FAQ ommited the line I would be happy.

Whilst they certainly do not spell out what they intend for IC's. this quote from the FAQ:

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in
reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in
Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or
Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves?
(p124)
A: No.

Regardless of how many units are there, as long as they are inside the drop pod they do not count towards the reserves limit. As they do not omit IC's specifically, there is no reason to my mind for them not to be effected by this rule change.
A similar example would be combat squading a unit of marines when they are in the pod. Technically if they were in a normal transport they would count as 2 units. However in this case they still both count as nothing as they are both in a transport that must start in reserve.

 juraigamer wrote:
Fine whatever guys, It's like no one reads the rulebook, only quotes others and FAQ's.

I'm still sticking with the facts of what page 124 says makes a full reserve impossible unless you don't have any IC's. Regardless (as it says)

This has almost gotten comical, if it wasn't sad...

There is only one person in this thread who hasn't read the relevant rules and FAQ clarification with understanding.

Short answer to your question. Yes it's legal. Just hope you win the roll off to go second.

Have fun.

rigeld2 wrote:


Please cite actual rules that disagree.

Been doing that, but oh well for those without a book, page 124 brb:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are
ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units
may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a
single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not."

To me, this means that it doesn't matter if the IC joins a unit in a drop pod or flier, it still counts towards the reserve limit.

The FAQ doesn't matter in this case, because it doesn't address this situation in the rulebook, there it says you can't do it.

Jurai, ignoring IC's for the moment:

The rule you quoted (repeatedly) states that a DT and it's unit are considered one unit for the purposes of counting. If that DT is a Drop Pod, does it still count towards the reserve limit?

So long as there's no IC in the pod/flier, it's legal deployment.

 juraigamer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


Please cite actual rules that disagree.

Been doing that, but oh well for those without a book, page 124 brb:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are
ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units
may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a
single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not."

To me, this means that it doesn't matter if the IC joins a unit in a drop pod or flier, it still counts towards the reserve limit.

The FAQ doesn't matter in this case, because it doesn't address this situation in the rulebook, there it says you can't do it.

You are taking a single rule and applying it as if it were in a vacuum. You must account for the other rules as well.

BRB Page 36 states that "When working out how many units can be placed in reserve,
units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any
models embarked upon them) are ignored."

Note it says ANY "models" embarked upon them. This tells you that the unit, its dedicated transport (in this case lets just stick with a drop pod) and ANY models embarked upon it are ignored for purposes of calculating reserves limits.

Honestly, the FAQ answer was not even needed (imo). The rules are already clear. If a model is embarked on a transport that MUST start in reserve, ignore it for calculating reserves limits. Forget about "attached" and any other qualifiers. if it is embarked, it is ignored; full stop.

Yes, the IC is a single unit. However, it is a model embarked upon a vehicle that must start in reserves. Therefore, the Deepstrike rule must be taken into account. You have 2 units (transport + troops is one, IC is another), all embarked upon a vehicle that must start in reserves. What happens when calculating reserves and a model is embarked on said vehicle? You ignore it for those calculations.

*edit : I've never understood why people get so confused about the deep strike and reserves rules .. this comes up so often it is mind boggling.

 juraigamer wrote:
So long as there's no IC in the pod/flier, it's legal deployment.

Why? The rule says they are counted as one. And that an IC is still counted as one even if he joins, so:

Unit, non-DT, IC = 3 units for the reserve count.
Unit, DT, IC = 2 units for the reserve count.
Unit, DT-that-must-start-in-reserve = 1 unit but is not counted.
Unit, DT-that-must-start-in-reserve, IC = 2 units but not counted.

The IC is still a unit, but it's transported in a transport that Must-Start-In-Reserves, so therefore falls under the category of the FAQ that has been (also repeatedly) quoted.

{Edit} Rorschach9: The FAQ was needed for units that must start in reserve but don't Deep Strike (such as a unit in a flier). As the Deep Strike rule covers itself but the flier rules don't.

most importantly, what are we considering a "game turn?" your turn, my turn? or is a game turn defined as a round in which both players have taken a turn? that's what will determine if this is feasible. a player with no models at the end of a game turn, loses? whats a game turn?

pulse211 wrote:
most importantly, what are we considering a "game turn?" your turn, my turn? or is a game turn defined as a round in which both players have taken a turn? that's what will determine if this is feasible. a player with no models at the end of a game turn, loses? whats a game turn?

BRB page 9 defines what a game turn and a player turn are and that whenever the rules refer simply to "a turn" it always means player turn.

pulse211 wrote:
most importantly, what are we considering a "game turn?" your turn, my turn? or is a game turn defined as a round in which both players have taken a turn? that's what will determine if this is feasible. a player with no models at the end of a game turn, loses? whats a game turn?

This is actually the LEAST important part of this thread. Look in the index under "Game Turn," and the BRB will quite simply define it for you.

 juraigamer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


Please cite actual rules that disagree.

Been doing that, but oh well for those without a book, page 124 brb:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are
ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units
may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a
single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not."

To me, this means that it doesn't matter if the IC joins a unit in a drop pod or flier, it still counts towards the reserve limit.

The FAQ doesn't matter in this case, because it doesn't address this situation in the rulebook, there it says you can't do it.

The rule doesn't cover the drop pod question at all.

It just means that an IC counts as one unit.
Same as a Tactical Squad.
Same as a Thundercannon.
Same as a Dreadnaught.

If the unit is in a drop pod, then it doesn't have to start on the table.
Same as a Tactical Squad.
Same as a Thundercannon.
Same as a Dreadnaught.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

pulse211 wrote:
most importantly, what are we considering a "game turn?" your turn, my turn? or is a game turn defined as a round in which both players have taken a turn? that's what will determine if this is feasible. a player with no models at the end of a game turn, loses? whats a game turn?

This is actually the LEAST important part of this thread. Look in the index under "Turn" and/or "Game Turn," and the BRB will quite simply define it for you.

well then it is simple and I don't understand why this discussion has gone on for so long. if the brb says that a player with no models on the field at the end of any game turn loses and you go second with a drop pod list, you lose at the end of the first turn cause you didn't have any models on the field. no matter how you try to wrap the deep strike and reserve rules around it.

pulse211 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

pulse211 wrote:
most importantly, what are we considering a "game turn?" your turn, my turn? or is a game turn defined as a round in which both players have taken a turn? that's what will determine if this is feasible. a player with no models at the end of a game turn, loses? whats a game turn?

This is actually the LEAST important part of this thread. Look in the index under "Turn" and/or "Game Turn," and the BRB will quite simply define it for you.

well then it is simple and I don't understand why this discussion has gone on for so long. if the brb says that a player with no models on the field at the end of any game turn loses and you go second with a drop pod list, you lose at the end of the first turn cause you didn't have any models on the field. no matter how you try to wrap the deep strike and reserve rules around it.

If you read the discussion you will notice its not centered on the no models/game turn question but rather what must be counted for reserves, which is why it has gone on so long (really it's just one persons misunderstanding of the reserves rules that is continuing the discussion as far as I can see).

Also, you do not lose if you go second with an all drop list. You lose at the end of a "game turn" with no models on the table, not Player turn (BRB p122) and as stated already, the two types of turns are defined on BRB p9.

pulse211 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

pulse211 wrote:
most importantly, what are we considering a "game turn?" your turn, my turn? or is a game turn defined as a round in which both players have taken a turn? that's what will determine if this is feasible. a player with no models at the end of a game turn, loses? whats a game turn?

This is actually the LEAST important part of this thread. Look in the index under "Turn" and/or "Game Turn," and the BRB will quite simply define it for you.

well then it is simple and I don't understand why this discussion has gone on for so long. if the brb says that a player with no models on the field at the end of any game turn loses and you go second with a drop pod list, you lose at the end of the first turn cause you didn't have any models on the field. no matter how you try to wrap the deep strike and reserve rules around it.

Sorry if this sounds rude, but did you actually read your rule book? Check what a game turn actually is, I believe it is page 9.

Edit: Ninja'd

My friend once tried alldrop marines against Tau in 5E and Tau get the first turn. Then Tau player flooded the table with three ridiculously stretched Kroot Blobs, so he was forced to land all his drop pods on the far corner of the table with no cover and far from objectives.

I imagine tyranids could do this too with mass genestealers.

 juraigamer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Please cite actual rules that disagree.

Been doing that, but oh well for those without a book, page 124 brb:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are
ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units
may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a
single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not."

To me, this means that it doesn't matter if the IC joins a unit in a drop pod or flier, it still counts towards the reserve limit.

The FAQ doesn't matter in this case, because it doesn't address this situation in the rulebook, there it says you can't do it.

Great - so we have 2 units (the SM and Marneus).
They both are embarked on a transport that must start in reserves.
Please quote the relevant rules that cover this situation - all of them.

Separate (for purpose of units in reserve) even if they join a unit, regardless. The rule states they are always counted as a unit in reserve, so it doesn't matter what the FAQ and deep strike rules state. If the IC joins a unit, it's still counted, doesn't matter what that unit is.

You tell me were we ignore this. Show me what rule superceeds this notion that "Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not." There is no rule that says we ignore this sentance/page/line.

Please cite a rule, page and bold the important text if you disagree. Include quotes and proper formatting.

 juraigamer wrote:
Separate (for purpose of units in reserve) even if they join a unit, regardless. The rule states they are always counted as a unit in reserve, so it doesn't matter what the FAQ and deep strike rules state. If the IC joins a unit, it's still counted, doesn't matter what that unit is.

You tell me were we ignore this. Show me what rule superceeds this notion that "Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not." There is no rule that says we ignore this sentance/page/line.

Please cite a rule, page and bold the important text if you disagree. Include quotes and proper formatting.

I've never - ever- as in, you're correct - said that the IC is not counted as a separate unit.

Your assertion is that it doesn't matter what that unit is embarked on. I've quoted the FAQ that says "units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve" do not count.
The IC unit is transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve. Tell me why it does count in contradiction with that FAQ.
Note that I'm not referring to page 36 or any Deep Strike rules - the FAQ operates on page 124, the same page you have cited.

Every single unit is always counted. Every game, regaldless of the unit type. The IC is always counted as a unit and follows all the rules for units.

Including starting in reserves if it is in a transport that has to start in reserves.

 juraigamer wrote:
Separate (for purpose of units in reserve) even if they join a unit, regardless. The rule states they are always counted as a unit in reserve, so it doesn't matter what the FAQ and deep strike rules state. If the IC joins a unit, it's still counted, doesn't matter what that unit is.

You tell me were we ignore this. Show me what rule superceeds this notion that "Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not." There is no rule that says we ignore this sentance/page/line.

Please cite a rule, page and bold the important text if you disagree. Include quotes and proper formatting.

I was planning on staying out of this, but I'll bite.

Since we are using a Drop Pod in this scenario, I won't even mention the FAQ (though it appears it would not matter as you'd just ignore it).

Page 36 - Deep Strike, left column, second paragraph.

When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

So we have a Drop Pod. It must be deployed by Deep Strike. Per the posted rule, it is ignored. Furthermore, any model embarked is also ignored. Oh look, a case of specific (models embarked on a transport that must DS) vs general (units in reserve). Guess which one wins?

 Happyjew wrote:
Page 36 - Deep Strike, left column, second paragraph.

He's made the assertion that page 36 is general deep strike and 124 covers specifically ICs in reserves. It's an incorrect argument, but he's "addressed" it already.

Might as well lock this thread, just circle talk now.

 Happyjew wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Separate (for purpose of units in reserve) even if they join a unit, regardless. The rule states they are always counted as a unit in reserve, so it doesn't matter what the FAQ and deep strike rules state. If the IC joins a unit, it's still counted, doesn't matter what that unit is.

You tell me were we ignore this. Show me what rule superceeds this notion that "Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not." There is no rule that says we ignore this sentance/page/line.

Please cite a rule, page and bold the important text if you disagree. Include quotes and proper formatting.

I was planning on staying out of this, but I'll bite.

Since we are using a Drop Pod in this scenario, I won't even mention the FAQ (though it appears it would not matter as you'd just ignore it).

Page 36 - Deep Strike, left column, second paragraph.

When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

So we have a Drop Pod. It must be deployed by Deep Strike. Per the posted rule, it is ignored. Furthermore, any model embarked is also ignored. Oh look, a case of specific (models embarked on a transport that must DS) vs general (units in reserve). Guess which one wins?

I already provided those rules for Juraigamer. He seems to feel they are irrelevant because the IC rules (apparently) say otherwise (which they don't).

@Juraigamer : IF there were a conflict between the Deep Strike reserves rules and the IC rules then I imagine the IC rules would supercede. There is no conflict, so both rules must apply. If you choose to not follow the rules for Deep Striking reserves (which clearly state all models in a transport that must start in reserve are not counted for the purposes of determining reserves limits) then you are not following the relevant rules.

Could we get a poll added to this thread? Maybe if Juraigamer saw the overwhelming opinion that his reading skills are failing in this case, he'd be more likely to agree?
If 5000 people say one thing, and you say another, it's a good indication that you're wrong. Not automatically wrong...but it's certainly something that you should consider.

Wow!

Just the same happyjew, page 124 tells us IC's are always counted as a separate unit in reserve, regardless of if they join a unit, so two specific rules are colliding. What do. Which takes precedent? Both rules take effect, being in the pod and being an IC. Page 124. I'm not arguing what it says on page 36, please stop blindly quoting it. I have never encountered two specifics colliding before like this. I'm looking for an explanation on this, since page 1, not copy paste and knee jerk responses.

 juraigamer wrote:
Just the same happyjew, page 124 tells us IC's are always counted as a separate unit in reserve, regardless of if they join a unit, so two specific rules are colliding. What do. Which takes precedent? Both rules take effect, being in the pod and being an IC. Pages 36 and 124. I have never encountered two specifics colliding before like this. I'm looking for an explanation on this, since page 1, not copy paste and knee jerk responses.

As I mentioned before, the FAQ doesn't even matter in this case.

The IC is a separate unit in reserves.

The IC is embarked upon a transport vehicle that MUST start in reserves.

Vehicles that must start in reserves AND ALL MODELS EMBARKED upon those vehicles are not counted for determining reserves limits.

Where is the conflict? You have a unit (and therefore, models) embarked upon a vehicle. Whether or not they are a unit in reserves is irrelevant because they are embarked upon a vehicle that MUST start in reserves (as opposed to MAY) and that further rule removes them from calculations for reserves.

What if you did not attach the IC to a unit? An IC on a Stormraven for example .. is it still counted towards reserves?
The reserves rules say no (FAQ ignored as it's merely a clarification of rules that already exist).
It's no different for any other vehicle that must start in reserve and has models embarked upon it. There is no conflict. Yes, the IC is a unit all on its own. As is any troop choice you embark upon the vehicle. But once embarked upon that vehicle (that must begin in reserves), they are removed from reserves calculations (and only for those purposes are they ignored), as per the rules (ALL of the rules, not just handpicked individual rules).

To do otherwise would be ignoring rules.