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The Food Network. Also Top Shot.

And some websites they won't let me get on at work, the meanies!

Hordini wrote:What is porn? Is Playboy porn? Some libraries include that periodical. Should someone be allowed to visit that website on a library computer?

What libraries do you go to? I've never seen that periodical at the Cuyahoga County, Cleveland, or Lakewood Public Libraries. If a library's policy allows such material that's up to that library, and I can take my patronage elsewhere if I so choose. To use my own library as an example, here are some of the policies that they have in place to prevent rowdy teens and homeless from causing mischief:
1) Eating and drinking are prohibited in all public areas. Any food or drink brought into the Library must be stored in a sealed, unopened container. The Library Director may grant exceptions to groups that seek permission in advance.
2) Sleeping is not permitted in the Library.
3) Loitering in the Library without making use of its materials is not acceptable. Aimless wandering through the building or anywhere on the grounds is likewise prohibited.
4) Shoes and proper attire must be worn at all times. (in the summer they have an extra policy about wet bathing suits since one of the branches is next to one of the city pools)
5) An acceptable standard of personal hygiene is expected of all individuals. Unpleasant body odor, which may offend other individuals in the Library, is considered unacceptable.
6) Personal grooming, beyond washing one's hands, is not permitted anywhere on Library property.
7) Belongings such as bedding, blankets (except small blankets used by babies), pillows, sleeping bags, and changes of clothing may not be brought into the Library. Carts used to convey personal belongings and large parcels exceeding 14”x14”x22” are prohibited.
8) The Library reserves the right to inspect all bags, purses, briefcases, etc., for Library materials.
9) The public viewing of materials that is harmful to minors, including but not limited to sexually explicit material, is forbidden on all Library property. (That's the anti-porn one)

So a library can have policies in place that prevent people from using their facilities as long as these policies are enforce evenly across the board you can't argue with it.

Ouze wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Libraries gain their funding through several ways, the largest is by local government funding, which is funded by the tax paying people of those cities. Homeless people tend to not pay taxes.

I'm pretty sure this is on dubious legal ground, though I'm not handily fighting a precedent. Legally speaking, "public" doesn't mean "taxpayers".

If anyone wants to help me out with finding a case to support this or otherwise I'd like to read it, still searching.

Dubious in that a public library can only be used by tax payers? I'll gladly eat my words on this and I'm sure I have in this thread. If a homeless person is using the facilities like anyone else, then I have no problem with them being there. If they're using the library as free access to a restroom, warmth/cool air, or internet porn (these are not just the only things) then they should get kicked out just like anyone else abusing their services

That is your Library though ALF. Not the ones in Ny who deemed it a violation of free speech because they take public funding.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Dubious in that a public library can only be used by tax payers?

Yes - that's the thought I found dubious. For example, should out of state taxypayers be thrown out of libraries?

The other part you posted, or if you prefer, expanded upon - about clear across the board policies - are very solid though.

edit: jfc, quotes, how do they work

 Alfndrate wrote:

Hordini wrote:What is porn? Is Playboy porn? Some libraries include that periodical. Should someone be allowed to visit that website on a library computer?

What libraries do you go to? I've never seen that periodical at the Cuyahoga County, Cleveland, or Lakewood Public Libraries. If a library's policy allows such material that's up to that library, and I can take my patronage elsewhere if I so choose. To use my own library as an example, here are some of the policies that they have in place to prevent rowdy teens and homeless from causing mischief:
1) Eating and drinking are prohibited in all public areas. Any food or drink brought into the Library must be stored in a sealed, unopened container. The Library Director may grant exceptions to groups that seek permission in advance.
2) Sleeping is not permitted in the Library.
3) Loitering in the Library without making use of its materials is not acceptable. Aimless wandering through the building or anywhere on the grounds is likewise prohibited.
4) Shoes and proper attire must be worn at all times. (in the summer they have an extra policy about wet bathing suits since one of the branches is next to one of the city pools)
5) An acceptable standard of personal hygiene is expected of all individuals. Unpleasant body odor, which may offend other individuals in the Library, is considered unacceptable.
6) Personal grooming, beyond washing one's hands, is not permitted anywhere on Library property.
7) Belongings such as bedding, blankets (except small blankets used by babies), pillows, sleeping bags, and changes of clothing may not be brought into the Library. Carts used to convey personal belongings and large parcels exceeding 14”x14”x22” are prohibited.
8) The Library reserves the right to inspect all bags, purses, briefcases, etc., for Library materials.
9) The public viewing of materials that is harmful to minors, including but not limited to sexually explicit material, is forbidden on all Library property. (That's the anti-porn one)

So a library can have policies in place that prevent people from using their facilities as long as these policies are enforce evenly across the board you can't argue with it.

I go to a few different libraries. I don't know if any of them have Playboy, because I've never asked. I would guess that most that do keep it behind a counter or something, and only allow patrons who are 18+ to view it. Here's an interesting related article: link

I'm also fine with a library having policies that are enforced evenly, but I would question some policies that might seem to specifically target homeless people.

 Ouze wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Dubious in that a public library can only be used by tax payers?

Yes - that's the thought I found dubious. For example, should out of state taxypayers be thrown out of libraries?

The other part you posted, or if you prefer, expanded upon - about clear across the board policies - are very solid though.

edit: jfc, quotes, how do they work

Like I said, I probably spoke far too hastily on that point, and of course out of state taxpayers should be thrown out!

Hotsauce, as to the issue at hand I realize that NYC has determined that libraries have determined that watching porn on library computers is okay as censoring such things would be a violation of free speech, and as a tax payer if viewing it in public is something that I'm against then that's something I bring up with my local distric/whoever can enact policy change for the library.

Also wouldn't viewing porn in a public place get you caught for a couple of different things should a child be around? Let's see... gross sexual imposition of a minor, probably a violation of public indecency laws in some places (but not NYC it seems), and probably a small handful of other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hordini wrote:
I go to a few different libraries. I don't know if any of them have Playboy, because I've never asked. I would guess that most that do keep it behind a counter or something, and only allow patrons who are 18+ to view it. Here's an interesting related article: link

I'm also fine with a library having policies that are enforced evenly, but I would question some policies that might seem to specifically target homeless people.

I'm sure that there are policies that target homeless people, but I would argue that if there is a homeless guy that smells to the high heavens and is sleeping at a nearby table while I'm trying to read/research/watch internet porn at an NYC library, then I might find that behavior conducive to a learning environment, just like I would find a smelly teenager sleeping near me the same.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Also wouldn't viewing porn in a public place get you caught for a couple of different things should a child be around? Let's see... gross sexual imposition of a minor, probably a violation of public indecency laws in some places (but not NYC it seems), and probably a small handful of other things.

Didn't the article mention that the computers had dividers or something? It seems like the library could offer an area for adults to use computers without content filters.

 Hordini wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Also wouldn't viewing porn in a public place get you caught for a couple of different things should a child be around? Let's see... gross sexual imposition of a minor, probably a violation of public indecency laws in some places (but not NYC it seems), and probably a small handful of other things.

Didn't the article mention that the computers had dividers or something? It seems like the library could offer an area for adults to use computers without content filters.

They had filters that adults could turn off to search for that content if they wished. My question is how does the library determine who can turn off that filter?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Ouze wrote:


Hotsauce, as to the issue at hand I realize that NYC has determined that libraries have determined that watching porn on library computers is okay as censoring such things would be a violation of free speech, and as a tax payer if viewing it in public is something that I'm against then that's something I bring up with my local distric/whoever can enact policy change for the library.

Also wouldn't viewing porn in a public place get you caught for a couple of different things should a child be around? Let's see... gross sexual imposition of a minor, probably a violation of public indecency laws in some places (but not NYC it seems), and probably a small handful of other things.

But what if im a taxpayer and I go into the same meeting saying I want the opposite?

 Alfndrate wrote:

I'm also fine with a library having policies that are enforced evenly, but I would question some policies that might seem to specifically target homeless people.

I'm sure that there are policies that target homeless people, but I would argue that if there is a homeless guy that smells to the high heavens and is sleeping at a nearby table while I'm trying to read/research/watch internet porn at an NYC library, then I might find that behavior conducive to a learning environment, just like I would find a smelly teenager sleeping near me the same.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Hotsauce, as to the issue at hand I realize that NYC has determined that libraries have determined that watching porn on library computers is okay as censoring such things would be a violation of free speech, and as a tax payer if viewing it in public is something that I'm against then that's something I bring up with my local distric/whoever can enact policy change for the library.

Also wouldn't viewing porn in a public place get you caught for a couple of different things should a child be around? Let's see... gross sexual imposition of a minor, probably a violation of public indecency laws in some places (but not NYC it seems), and probably a small handful of other things.

But what if im a taxpayer and I go into the same meeting saying I want the opposite?

Well good sir, then we have ourselves a vote on our hands! Ain't democracy grand?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hordini wrote:
Depending on the situation, I'm somewhat fine with the situation you are describing. What I wouldn't be fine with is kicking out a homeless person who is awake and reading or doing internet research just because he smells (even if it's technically against the rules, that seems like it could be incredibly abusive).

I do have to ask though, are most libraries in your area so packed that you couldn't move to another table or another area?

Depends on the day and the area of the library. The main reading room has just enough people to be considered 'packed' meaning that there about 3 to 4 people at each of the tables at any given time, the computer lab is always packed, the study rooms are almost always in use, but the various 'allies' of books? there is usually enough space.

Edit: as to the smell, think about the worst smells you've had at a game store? That's pretty much the light end of what you can experience from a homeless man during the hot parts of the year. I've dealt with smelly kids as a student teacher, and it sucks hearing people complain that a person's odor is so distracting to the people around them. Also I was the smelly kid for a week

I understand that as a homeless person it would be a lot more difficult to clean yourself up and have a shower and clean clothes, but the smell that can exude is incredibly distracting...

 juraigamer wrote:
Who goes to a library to watch porn? Unless it's got a really compelling story *cough* then what gives?

The article in the OP clearly states that the viewer was an "elderly gentleman"


Obviously old dudes, who probably dont function anyhow go to the library for reminiscing??

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
Depending on the situation, I'm somewhat fine with the situation you are describing. What I wouldn't be fine with is kicking out a homeless person who is awake and reading or doing internet research just because he smells (even if it's technically against the rules, that seems like it could be incredibly abusive).

I do have to ask though, are most libraries in your area so packed that you couldn't move to another table or another area?

Depends on the day and the area of the library. The main reading room has just enough people to be considered 'packed' meaning that there about 3 to 4 people at each of the tables at any given time, the computer lab is always packed, the study rooms are almost always in use, but the various 'allies' of books? there is usually enough space.

Edit: as to the smell, think about the worst smells you've had at a game store? That's pretty much the light end of what you can experience from a homeless man during the hot parts of the year. I've dealt with smelly kids as a student teacher, and it sucks hearing people complain that a person's odor is so distracting to the people around them. Also I was the smelly kid for a week

I understand that as a homeless person it would be a lot more difficult to clean yourself up and have a shower and clean clothes, but the smell that can exude is incredibly distracting...

I know what you mean, I've been in my fair share of games stores! I do understand that a smelly person's body odor can be quite distracting, but I also find the level of entitlement required for a non-homeless person to go complain to a librarian about a homeless person's body odor in order to get them kicked out of the library to be absolutely staggering.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Obviously old dudes, who probably dont function anyhow go to the library for reminiscing??

"When I was a kid, there was no jacking it to anime in the library! Nossir, we had to go to the reference desk and check out some national geographics, and we liked it".

 Ouze wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Obviously old dudes, who probably dont function anyhow go to the library for reminiscing??

"When I was a kid, there was no jacking it to anime in the library! Nossir, we had to go to the reference desk and check out some national geographics, and we liked it".

You didn't use Dewey's Decimal system to your advantage... my hometown library has an extensive collection of books with which one could improve on their photography skills


(actually, no joke... there were a crapload of legit "How to Take Good Photos" books, most of which included the more adult variety of posing)

libraries are where homeless people go BM, rest up, inject needles, and dispose of them in the PROVIDED sharps containers.


they also have books and stuff if you make it past all the hobos.

maybe its just cause im in a "big" city, but thats literally what they are used for 80%+ of the time.


which is nice... i get first dibs on the books and graphic novels!

but not so nice as I will never, ever, use the bathroom there, even if it meant crudding my pants.

 Hordini wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Also wouldn't viewing porn in a public place get you caught for a couple of different things should a child be around? Let's see... gross sexual imposition of a minor, probably a violation of public indecency laws in some places (but not NYC it seems), and probably a small handful of other things.

Didn't the article mention that the computers had dividers or something? It seems like the library could offer an area for adults to use computers without content filters.

its like someone already suggested that...
I think in the article, the sound was an issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hordini wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

I'm also fine with a library having policies that are enforced evenly, but I would question some policies that might seem to specifically target homeless people.

I'm sure that there are policies that target homeless people, but I would argue that if there is a homeless guy that smells to the high heavens and is sleeping at a nearby table while I'm trying to read/research/watch internet porn at an NYC library, then I might find that behavior conducive to a learning environment, just like I would find a smelly teenager sleeping near me the same.

Depending on the situation, I'm somewhat fine with the situation you are describing. What I wouldn't be fine with is kicking out a homeless person who is awake and reading or doing internet research just because he smells (even if it's technically against the rules, that seems like it could be incredibly abusive).

 Hordini wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

feeder wrote:
Freaking seriously?

While libraries are public places, many homeless use them as free and easy access to the following:
1) Bathrooms
2) Warmth
3) Internet/Internet porn

What's wrong with using a public bathroom located inside a public place? What's wrong with taking advantage of free and easy access to the internet at a public place that's very purpose is to provide free and easy access to information, including the internet? What's wrong with entering a warm public place when it is cold outside?

1) Bathrooms, no matter where you are, are generally reserved for patrons of the establishment, to be a patron of the library you have to have a library card, which requires an address
2) Nothing, I've spent an hour or so inside of a library during hot summer days to take advantage of the air conditioning, but I am also a patron of the library, I usually left there with a few books (that the library then made some money off of me cause I was terrible at returning books ). Homeless people generally enter and spend most if not the entire day there simply because it's warm (or cold in the summer).
3) I agree that people should be able to use the internet at the library for certain things, looking up internet porn isn't one of them simply because there are children around (which is why Frazz's suggestion on page 1 is a decent one). The internet at the library should be used for research, general knowledge, communicating with family, or applying for jobs (the second reason why my local libraries got their grants for computers with the first being for students).

Anyone abusing these facilities should be kicked out as well...

You don't have to have a library card to be a patron of a public library. You just need a library card to check books out. You also don't need to be a patron of anything to use a public restroom. I'm also not encouraging people to look at porn at the library in front of a bunch of kids, but that doesn't mean I think libraries should censor their internet on computers that adults use either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

Scenario #2: A Library's purpose is a store of knowledge. Thats books. Journals as well. Its not fething Starbucks with free wifi.

Are you saying providing access to the internet goes against the library's purpose of being a store of knowledge?

Providing internet porn to ignorant people that don't have the social skills to know better than watch it around children shouldn't be a library's job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hordini wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
You don't have to have a library card to be a patron of a public library. You just need a library card to check books out.

Libraries gain their funding through several ways, the largest is by local government funding, which is funded by the tax paying people of those cities. Homeless people tend to not pay taxes. The second is through private fundraising (my local library has a foundation that raises funds to keep the library going). Third, and probably the smallest I admit, is through the circulation of books by collecting late fees, charging for lost/stolen books, and for charging for services which require a library card to use.

That doesn't change the fact that a public library is open to the public and that you don't need to have a library card to patronize them. You don't have to pay taxes to utilize a library either.

If the homeless are using the library's services for their intended use, then I have no problem with it, but if I'm in the library looking for books or using the internet, and I see some guy looking at porn, then I would expect him to be removed for his actions and banned from using at least that aspect of the library just as I would expect someone to ban me if I was using the library for such things.

If you abuse the services that the library offers, then you don't have the privilege to use their services.

What is porn? Is Playboy porn? Some libraries include that periodical. Should someone be allowed to visit that website on a library computer?

No.

Relapse wrote:
Providing internet porn to ignorant people that don't have the social skills to know better than watch it around children shouldn't be a library's job.

In the same vein, babysitting children to make sure they don't see inappropriate things also is not the job of a librarian, either.

Not that I'm lessening the responsibility of adults to take reasonable precautions to make sure their porn isn't viewable by minors. Or the practice of watching porn at the library at all, really. There are lots of practices that I stand up for as lawful that I personally find quite odious.

 Ouze wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Providing internet porn to ignorant people that don't have the social skills to know better than watch it around children shouldn't be a library's job.

In the same vein, babysitting children to make sure they don't see inappropriate things also is not the job of a librarian, either.

Not that I'm lessening the responsibility of adults to take reasonable precautions to make sure their porn isn't viewable by minors. Or the practice of watching porn at the library at all, really. There are lots of practices that I stand up for as lawful that I personally find quite odious.

I don't believe libraries should be babysitters either, but if someone is walking through with children in an enviorment they believe safe and suddenly find themselves walking by some moron watching that crap where kids can see it, I would believe that is cause for legal action against the person watching and the library.