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2013/09/18 23:45:58
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Spacemanvic wrote: Oh damn. Then I'll be dead soon and you wont have to read any more of my posts!! But then Ill proceed to haunting you.....
Of course you won't be. Using homeopathic "medicine" is completely harmless because it has no active ingredients. Eat/drink as much of it as you want, there are no possible health consequences. In fact, if you aren't drinking enough water, it might even be good for you. You're only in trouble if you use it instead of real medicine when you're sick with something that doesn't go away on its own.
(Now your wallet, on the other hand, may be dead soon if you keep spending money on scams.)
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/09/18 23:56:26
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Alfndrate wrote: *sigh* does everything have to boil down to a fething fallacy with you? I swear that's one of a handful of things I ever see you post on this site.
Ad hominem
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/18 23:59:14
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2013/09/19 00:05:25
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
This is why I'm putting you on ignore, because you don't know how to just talk. I'm not professing anything, I haven't given statistics, I haven't said that this is gospel. All I've said is that these are my experiences and what I've seen.
Alfndrate wrote: I really don't give a fat frog's ass what fallacy you believe my experience is. I saw his insulin use before, I saw his insulin use after, I saw his insulin use while he was allowed to eat gluten, but not allowed to eat a variety of other things, I saw his insulin use while he wasn't allowed to eat gluten and while he wasn't allowed to eat a variety of things.
And as you are a medical doctor or organic chemist I'm sure you made a detailed analysis of the systemic changes as well as cataloging any other dietary changes to come to that conclusion, or it is, as stated a post hoc fallacy and anecdotal evidence, which can never be used to supplant actual honest to god research. This is the same kind of reasoning that leads to thinking that vaccines cause autism.
How about setting up the insulin pump for a 68 year old man who can barely see every 3 days because the side effects from his diabetes are leaving him too blind to set up his pump accurately? How about now when we set it up it's once every 5 to 6 days? Does that give me a better leg up in this argument? No because again it's a fallacy and anecdotal evidence, blah blah blah.
How about I was in the doctor's office when this plan was being hashed out? I trust my dad's doctor, and I've seen the results
What the feth ever happened to just two people sitting down and sharing their experiences, and if one of those people ever hears something that they might think is fething bs they go and investigate it? Why does everything have to be backed up with studies, analysis, facts and charts by the person telling the story? I'm not making some massive medical claim, I'm simply saying, "here is my experience, it might be different than yours, but here is the way I've experienced the world. If this is something that might be relevant to your life, I suggest you also look into it so you can decide for yourself."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/19 00:07:10
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/09/19 00:29:14
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
I have trouble understanding why one wouldn't want studies and research to back up saying that going gluten free helps with diabetes. I'm sure your family member has made improvements, but without more study just saying it was one part of the whole is why doesn't really help, and in many cases can be problematic to those with medical issues.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2013/09/19 00:41:06
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Nah, youre not even that. You're a person on the internet claiming you work in the medical field.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/19 00:43:03
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
What the feth ever happened to just two people sitting down and sharing their experiences, and if one of those people ever hears something that they might think is fething bs they go and investigate it? Why does everything have to be backed up with studies, analysis, facts and charts by the person telling the story? I'm not making some massive medical claim, I'm simply saying, "here is my experience, it might be different than yours, but here is the way I've experienced the world. If this is something that might be relevant to your life, I suggest you also look into it so you can decide for yourself."
The internet happened. It's just Ahtman. Walk away and get a breath, and realize it's just bull gak. Not worth getting stressed out over.
d-usa wrote: Homeopathy, as a part of a complete medical regimen, is helpful and effective.
So is any other placebo. That doesn't mean that we should pretend that it's anything but a scam.
Of course I'm just a person working in the medical field, what do I know.
Sorry, but if you think that homeopathy does anything then that casts serious doubt on your professional skills.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/19 00:44:40
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/09/19 00:45:56
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
There is a lot to be said for proper nutrition. If the homeopathy helps cover that it can be useful.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Is it only if we agree with people that it becomes a discussion? I thought we were just people talking about issues, I didn't realize that by being skeptical of gluten fee being a diabetes treatment meant I was just being a meanie. Even someone else pointed out that changes in diet have an effect on overall health, so it may not just just be that he went gluten free but other factors as well, but I don't recall that leading to proclamations on the destruction of discourse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/19 00:57:40
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2013/09/19 01:04:20
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
d-usa wrote: Homeopathy, as a part of a complete medical regimen, is helpful and effective.
So is any other placebo. That doesn't mean that we should pretend that it's anything but a scam.
Of course I'm just a person working in the medical field, what do I know.
Sorry, but if you think that homeopathy does anything then that casts serious doubt on your professional skills.
I don't know what got me thinking about osteopathy but that was not the term I had in my head. Sorry about that.
I was thinking more about different alternative therapies in general and not homeopathy. Some of the stuff like simple vitamins and minerals have been shown to be quite effective for different things. Probiotics are now used in hospitals on a regular basis. Different herbal remedies have also shown to be an effective adjunct to more conventional treatments.
If looking at the evidence and seeing that some of that stuff can help makes you doubt my clinical credibility, then you better stay out of hospitals because they are getting more frequent there.
2013/09/19 01:07:46
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
What the feth ever happened to just two people sitting down and sharing their experiences, and if one of those people ever hears something that they might think is fething bs they go and investigate it? Why does everything have to be backed up with studies, analysis, facts and charts by the person telling the story? I'm not making some massive medical claim, I'm simply saying, "here is my experience, it might be different than yours, but here is the way I've experienced the world. If this is something that might be relevant to your life, I suggest you also look into it so you can decide for yourself."
The internet happened. It's just Ahtman. Walk away and get a breath, and realize it's just bull gak. Not worth getting stressed out over.
Done and done, grabbed a beer, cracked open a few sphess mahreens, and put on a new comedy album.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/09/19 01:13:08
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
d-usa wrote: I was thinking more about different alternative therapies in general and not homeopathy. Some of the stuff like simple vitamins and minerals have been shown to be quite effective for different things. Probiotics are now used in hospitals on a regular basis. Different herbal remedies have also shown to be an effective adjunct to more conventional treatments.
Of course, that's an entirely different thing and legitimate medicine. Those treatments are held to the same standards as everyone else (proper trials, plausible mechanisms, etc) and are not at all like homeopathy. I have no objections to "alternative" methods that have been proven to work.
If looking at the evidence and seeing that some of that stuff can help makes you doubt my clinical credibility, then you better stay out of hospitals because they are getting more frequent there.
That was about homeopathy, which you have now clarified was a mistake. I certainly would not apply that statement to what you have now said.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/09/19 01:19:58
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Ahtman wrote: Is it only if we agree with people that it becomes a discussion? I thought we were just people talking about issues, I didn't realize that by being skeptical of gluten fee being a diabetes treatment meant I was just being a meanie. Even someone else pointed out that changes in diet have an effect on overall health, so it may not just just be that he went gluten free but other factors as well, but I don't recall that leading to proclamations on the destruction of discourse.
I would wager that the health change was because of the diet change and the gluten was simply a high profile scapegoat. Lots of things that don't have gluten are good for you.
But avoiding gluten for gluten's sake isn't what will help you, unless you are allergic to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/19 01:28:23
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ahtman wrote: Is it only if we agree with people that it becomes a discussion? I thought we were just people talking about issues, I didn't realize that by being skeptical of gluten fee being a diabetes treatment meant I was just being a meanie. Even someone else pointed out that changes in diet have an effect on overall health, so it may not just just be that he went gluten free but other factors as well, but I don't recall that leading to proclamations on the destruction of discourse.
I would wager that the health change was because of the diet change and the gluten was simply a high profile scapegoat. Lots of things that don't have gluten are good for you.
But avoiding gluten for gluten's sake isn't what will help you, unless you are allergic to it.
Careful now, you are going to end up on an ignore list with unfriendly talk like that.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2013/09/19 02:21:26
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
d-usa wrote: Yeah, I don't know how I got stuck on the homeopathy.
Alternative medicine can help, but it can also feth things up. Important thing is to always talk to your medical team.
Thats almost with anything though. My FIL went into the hospital due to complications with diabetes. Because of a foul up with two doctors who didnt look at his med records and both prescribing him meds that his records stated he should not take, he wound up in a coma and suffered organ failure before a nurse got involved and brought it to our attention, then we brought it to the family doctor who forwarded us to the patient advocate. By then it was too late, and we got to see him slowly and painfully die short of two weeks. Despite the family begging my MIL to sue the hospital to get their attention, she refused. This is a hospital with a reputation for shoddy care.
So yes, always talk with your medical team, always follow up, be actively involved and seek multiple approaches to a issue. We are lucky in that we have a doctor who is an MD as well as a homeopath.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/19 02:23:24
2013/09/19 03:11:01
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Grey Templar wrote: There is a lot to be said for proper nutrition. If the homeopathy helps cover that it can be useful.
Some of the more potent forms of homeopathy, or so they claim, is so diluted that for there to be a single molecule of the original product in it, you'd need to fill a sphere the size of the inner solar system. Ever heard of Avogadro's Number?
As Tim Minchin said: alternative medicine is either medicine not proved to work, or proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.
And yes, let's be precise, natural remedies are not the same as homeopathy. The latter is only effective through th process of "succussing" and repetitive dilution. Aspirin is natural medicine. The difference is, there is an active ingredient in aspirin.
d-usa wrote: Yeah, I don't know how I got stuck on the homeopathy.
Alternative medicine can help, but it can also feth things up. Important thing is to always talk to your medical team.
Thats almost with anything though. My FIL went into the hospital due to complications with diabetes. Because of a foul up with two doctors who didnt look at his med records and both prescribing him meds that his records stated he should not take, he wound up in a coma and suffered organ failure before a nurse got involved and brought it to our attention, then we brought it to the family doctor who forwarded us to the patient advocate. By then it was too late, and we got to see him slowly and painfully die short of two weeks. Despite the family begging my MIL to sue the hospital to get their attention, she refused. This is a hospital with a reputation for shoddy care.
So yes, always talk with your medical team, always follow up, be actively involved and seek multiple approaches to a issue. We are lucky in that we have a doctor who is an MD as well as a homeopath.
Your anecdote does not discount the whole of modern medicine but speaks about two specific doctors. It does not allow anyone to draw any conclusion about anything else but those two doctors' competence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/19 03:12:24
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2013/09/19 03:27:34
Subject: Re:A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Alfndrate wrote: My dad's diabetes has come under better control since he cut gluten out and he uses far less insulin than he used to. I'm not allergic to gluten, gluten-free is just all we have in the house now.
That sounds more a like an effect of changing diet overall and not because gluten itself has a meaningful impact on diabetes. Post hoc fallacy, ect ect.
*sigh* does everything have to boil down to a fething fallacy with you? I swear that's one of a handful of things I ever see you post on this site.
I really don't give a fat frog's ass what fallacy you believe my experience is. I saw his insulin use before, I saw his insulin use after, I saw his insulin use while he was allowed to eat gluten, but not allowed to eat a variety of other things, I saw his insulin use while he wasn't allowed to eat gluten and while he wasn't allowed to eat a variety of things.
What's the point of even being in a discussion if you can't even handle criticism and if people are finding fallacies in your posts you might want to look as to why that might be the case as it means you're likely using faulty reasoning.
2013/09/19 07:18:24
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
d-usa wrote: Homeopathy, as a part of a complete medical regimen, is helpful and effective. Homeopathy can also hurt if it is not done correctly.
Of course I'm just a person working in the medical field, what do I know.
I don't know, that would depend what "working in the medical field" is. The Reiki touch-healer at the local woo-factory uses that same phrase.
Homeopathy is not efficacious. It cannot be shown to be efficacious in trials. It has no credible mechanism of action. Tests of homeopathic tinctures and pills show that, statistically, there is almost certainly no active ingredient whatsoever in any particular dose. Homeopathy is directly responsible for thousands of deaths in Africa resulting from its advocates persuading people to stop taking clinically proven HIV-AIDS medications. It is a blight on humanity. "Alternative medicine" that demonstrably works is called "medicine", the rest is snakeoil.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2013/09/19 10:16:14
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
d-usa wrote: Homeopathy, as a part of a complete medical regimen, is helpful and effective. Homeopathy can also hurt if it is not done correctly.
Of course I'm just a person working in the medical field, what do I know.
I don't know, that would depend what "working in the medical field" is. The Reiki touch-healer at the local woo-factory uses that same phrase.
Homeopathy is not efficacious. It cannot be shown to be efficacious in trials. It has no credible mechanism of action. Tests of homeopathic tinctures and pills show that, statistically, there is almost certainly no active ingredient whatsoever in any particular dose. Homeopathy is directly responsible for thousands of deaths in Africa resulting from its advocates persuading people to stop taking clinically proven HIV-AIDS medications. It is a blight on humanity. "Alternative medicine" that demonstrably works is called "medicine", the rest is snakeoil.
d-usa wrote: Homeopathy, as a part of a complete medical regimen, is helpful and effective.
So is any other placebo. That doesn't mean that we should pretend that it's anything but a scam.
Of course I'm just a person working in the medical field, what do I know.
Sorry, but if you think that homeopathy does anything then that casts serious doubt on your professional skills.
I don't know what got me thinking about osteopathy but that was not the term I had in my head. Sorry about that.
I was thinking more about different alternative therapies in general and not homeopathy. Some of the stuff like simple vitamins and minerals have been shown to be quite effective for different things. Probiotics are now used in hospitals on a regular basis. Different herbal remedies have also shown to be an effective adjunct to more conventional treatments.
2013/09/19 10:31:21
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Their selection of meats and produce is insane! Granted we don't usually buy much of the boxed items, just produce, meat and coffee (OH the wonderful COFFEE!).
Why not Publix? Everytime we're in Spring Hill, Publix seems to have really great meat.
My wife and I usually go to Publix for some things and Whole Foods for others. Unfortunately, the nearest Whole Foods is in Nashville.... At least where we are at, the prices in WF, for "fair trade" produce and even meat is equal to, or better than anything we get where we live. Publix does have some pretty good meat selection, but they dont have the variety, such as the various types of sausage, blends of ground meat, etc. Also absolutely love the seafood counter at WF, being from a coastal state, living in a landlocked one sucks.
I mean, yeah, sure you'll get the occasional horrible hipster/hippy type person in there, but where I'm at, the staff and customer service is at the same level as Publix (for those who dont have a Publix in their area, you're missing out), and maybe it's just nashville, but even the horrible hipster types are at least polite to your face.
2013/09/19 10:57:23
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Alfndrate wrote: My dad's diabetes has come under better control since he cut gluten out and he uses far less insulin than he used to. I'm not allergic to gluten, gluten-free is just all we have in the house now.
That sounds more a like an effect of changing diet overall and not because gluten itself has a meaningful impact on diabetes. Post hoc fallacy, ect ect.
*sigh* does everything have to boil down to a fething fallacy with you? I swear that's one of a handful of things I ever see you post on this site.
I really don't give a fat frog's ass what fallacy you believe my experience is. I saw his insulin use before, I saw his insulin use after, I saw his insulin use while he was allowed to eat gluten, but not allowed to eat a variety of other things, I saw his insulin use while he wasn't allowed to eat gluten and while he wasn't allowed to eat a variety of things.
I'm afraid your post is just a fallacy.
Seriously, good to hear about the weight improvement. Thats a serious issue for diabetics.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahtman wrote: Someone doesn't have a sense of humor, it seems.
I have trouble understanding why one wouldn't want studies and research to back up saying that going gluten free helps with diabetes. I'm sure your family member has made improvements, but without more study just saying it was one part of the whole is why doesn't really help, and in many cases can be problematic to those with medical issues.
Gluten itself may (and probably is) irrelevant. Shifting away from breads and such however is directly beneficial, both to losing weight, and changing away from the carb/sugar probalems that can up a diabetic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/19 10:58:35
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/19 12:19:02
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
Cheesecat wrote: What's the point of even being in a discussion if you can't even handle criticism and if people are finding fallacies in your posts you might want to look as to why that might be the case as it means you're likely using faulty reasoning.
I've got little problem if someone says something along the lines of what Gray Templar said about gluten being a giant scapegoat for the entire thing and that my dad's health improvement can be attributed to a change in diet. What I have issue with is when someone just says, "this is a fallacy". That doesn't spur discussion that stunts it.
Grey Templar, while my dad's health has improved in other ways due to his dietary changes, my dad was on a strict regimented diet for several months in which his endocrinologist and his nutritionist did a battery of tests where they limited what he could eat for several weeks, and looked at his blood sugar and insulin use on a daily basis while he was limited to certain foods. During the time in which gluten (not just breads) were removed from his diet, they saw a decrease in insulin need as well as a lowering of his blood sugar highs. Gluten, being a protein, will raise anyone's blood sugar as it is, as that's how the body processes it and where goes after being processed (while the body is using it). Gluten in refined wheats (breads, pasta, starchy foods) tends to spike a diabetic's blood sugar needlessly and occasionally to dangerously high levels. While I'm not an expert on this subject, as one of my father's primary care givers (he's still independent, just a little lost without mom and I), I was there at all of his doctor's appointments and saw the test results and asked the doctors to explain these things to me so I knew what was going on. There was also a study done comparing a paleo diet to a Mediterranean-like diet. The largest difference between the two diets is the latter involves heavy reliance on unrefined grains (which tend to contain gluten). There wasn't a significant decrease for the diabetics on the paleo diet, but there was more of a decrease than with the Mediterranean-like diet. While it's not conclusive, it was something my dad and his doctors discussed as a way to help manage his diabetes, something he's been trying to keep under control for the past 49 years and has gotten worse in the past 5 to 6 years.
And Frazz, thanks yeah it's been cool seeing him slightly more active in the past year than I had since I started college.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/09/19 12:24:51
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/19 13:06:33
Subject: A funny bit about Whole Foods and Rich White People
I was thinking about this the other day, not Whole Foods or organic food in particular, just the modern ideas about gluten intolerance and lactose intolerance.
These certainly do exist as medical facts with scientific explanations, but OTOH wheat and milk have been core staples of the indo-European diet for thousands of years, so it is a bit surprising that these diseases have become common problems in the last few decades.
I assume that some third factor is involved. It has been suggested, for instance, that the modern growth of immune problems like nut allergy, is caused by the modern very clean lifestyle that does not allow infants' immune systems to be challenged and develop in a normal way.
I think some of it, though, is people wanting to have an interesting problem in their life. Like people who are allergic to WiFi.
up a diabetic.
