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 OminusMarine wrote:
I still agree with Lobukia (concerning morale).
What a lot of people are just shrugging off is the fact that SM's are considered legends. Read any BL novel where IG infantry come face to face with just 1 SM.

And then we get other fluff where an entire squad of CSM's gets killed off by half a squad of guardsmen and some random villagers, or gets quickly dispatched by a Krak missile as soon as they appear, or a millenia old siegemaster killed by simple mortar fire. BL fluff is wildly inconsistent and is a terrible measuring stick.

They're awestruck, completely.

Up close and in person, yes. Through a battle cannon sight, or an artillery carriage 20 miles away, not so much.

Yeah, they'll have commissar's that inspire discipline and heroism, but they aren't going to hold a candle against a mass grouping of SMs.

Except we have IG regiments that have faced off against SM's and CSM's and never quaked in their boots like people keep describing, and many have faced other indescribable horrors of equal power like Tyranids, Meganobz, etc.

Another thing we're forgetting here. SM's don't go in headstrong against any fleet of ships. They use hit and run tactics to wound and cripple larger ships all the time.

Yes, but when outnumbered several thousand to one that quickly becomes a physical impossibility as anywhere you'd run the enemy is likely already there. SM's also typically have clear homeworlds that can be engaged and destroyed.

Remember, they're literally created for war. Tactics and combat are essentially plugged into their brains upon ascension to a SM.
Plus, they have YEARS of experience on the battlefield, facing insane odds all the time.

Nobody is denying that. Only saying that they're not going to even get close to overcoming the kind of absurd odds stacked against them Being a super solder != autowin or that they're going to make much of a dent in such a foe. It's a major weakpoint of 40k fluff that just stops working if you look too hard at it, and why 40k is a Fantasy universe, with Space Marines instead of Magic Knights, and not a Science Fiction universe.

I'm not saying IG will get slaughtered by them, not at all.
They will win eventually based on #'s alone.
I just don't agree with people throwing SM's to the wind as if they're some push over soldier who just wears big armor and says "For the Emperor" all the time.

Nobody says they won't reap a great tally of bodies, or that the SM's are a pushover. The issue is the difference in scale and capabilities. The differences in scale are simply mind boggling and even if you assume each SM does something patently ridiculous like slaying multiple IG regiments on his own, it's still just not even close. With thousands of IG regiments for each SM chapter and tens of millions of IG troops per Space marine, and multiple Armored Regiments per each Space Marine, the numbers game here is just too imbalanced to be practical. Again, it's a weak point of the fluff that just wasn't really thought out.

 ChakLong wrote:
What people seem to forget time and time again is that Space Marines are essentially the elite special forces of the Imperium. You don't just send Special Forces en-masse against military forces a hundred thousand times larger in open warfare.

We understand this, however much of the SM fluff is them doing exactly that

What people also seem to be forgetting is that the Imperial Guard is just one part of the Imperium's military, and does not include things such as the Imperial Navy.

Not including the IN is absurd, the IG doesn't operate without the IN, and their command structures are intertwined and connected at the strategic level, and both operate under the auspices of the Munitorum. You simply do not have one without the other. It's like saying you can't count Chapter serfs for the SM's, in which case they cease to be able to operate a navy, maintain their equipment, or defend their homeworld.

Space Marines however retain their own fleets. Space Marines also retain their own supplies. The Imperial Guard rely on the Departmento Munitorum. Where are they going to get their supplies? Out of their arses?

And the SM's rely on their chapter serfs to crew their ships, man their defenses, etc. where are the Space Marines getting their industrial inputs for production and where do they build their ships? It's not like they have their own shipyards or operate their own mines and smelting industries.

Besides, Space Marine worlds may even retain their own military forces other than the standard PDF and Guard garrisons. Ultramar has their own military force and fleet.

Which is commanded by the Ultramarines (oddly enough...in rather stark violation of the intents of the Codex Astartes...) in the Master of Ultramar's capacity as Imperial Governor, not as Master of the Ultramarines.

How I see is would be that the Imperial Guard sit around starving on their planets whilst the Space Marines unite in a massive crusade and just purging worlds that the Imperial Guard are stationed on.

Unless they're super concentrating their forces, such a crusade wouldn't last long as their forces would be stretched mind-bogglingly thin, if they do concentrate, then they're leaving 99% of the IG's worlds alone and able to fortify, prepare, and consolidate.

And then, even at some absurdly ridiculous kill ratio of like 2000-1, there are worlds with hundreds of millions of guardsmen that would see the SM's run dry and destroyed before they made it through 1% of the worlds the IG was established on.

Again, it's the scale here that people don't seem to be getting. The entirety of the SM's next to the entirety of the IG is like sending one guy against the entire UK.

 Engine of War wrote:
Lets set some ground rules.
The SM don't have their space ships. Cause then the Navy would get involved (and once again its a matter of superior numbers and Anti ship weapons).
The fighting is on the ground. Lets just say in a vacuum without all the rest of 40k getting involved (xenos, chaos etc) they fight on a battle field large enough to support all SM and All IG (and their equipment and all needed ammo and supplies)

My arguments against Librarians. IG have more psykers, perhaps not as powerful but there are far more then them, plus I've read about anti psyker weapons, such as tank shells infused with a psyker crystal that prevents the psyker form acting upon the shell (it was used to disable and destroy a Weirdboy Gargant in "Baneblade"), so I'm sure the anti psyker weapons would fry the librarians, especially when used in the sheer numbers the guard have.

Arguments against the main characters: they will be flattened by the unending numbers of troops and tanks. If not already turned to paste under the unrelenting bombardment of artillery. Their only saving grace was their plot armor.

Tank vs Tank:
Land Raiders are powerful yes, But when something is RARE in SM then its REALLY REALLY REALLY RARE. If something is "Rare" in IG, that means there are Millions of them, but since there are trillions+ of guard then even then not everyone will get one, much like Baneblades, they are "Rare" but there are still more Baneblades then there are Landraiders by far.... There are more Chimeras then there are rhinos or razorbacks, there are more Leman Russ Tanks then there are Predators and so on.
heck I think the only IG thing that is "rare" and doesn't out number the SM things are Vortex Deathstrike missiles..... but there are possibly still thousands of them.....

Troop vs Troops:
While yes 1 SM is worth something like 10 to 1000 guardsmen there are still billions more....
Then there are Storm troopers, Ogryn, and so much more.

"Killing high command"
Well.... still more Commanders then there are space marines. Plus they are trained to take command should Sarge fall. And do you really think that the team of space marines sent to kill X commander would get through it all without casualties? Not when there are thousands of guardsmen around them and then some.

"We have aircraft! like thunder hawks!, Valks are part of the navy!"
Some Valks are permanently attached to guard regiments (rare but it happens), plus im sure we have enough Hydras and just plain bullets that Thunderhawks and storm ravens and whatever else will be shredded to tiny pieces by the wall of rounds going skyward.

If they're fighting on the same planet the Astartes win, as their armour is designed to be airtight. Virus bombs are horrifying weapons.

 Melissia wrote:
Or more likely than not the insignificant number of Space Marines gets wiped out fairly quickly by superior firepower, because no, space marines can't resist direct hits from heavy weapons.

It's not that Space Marines are outnumbered 300 to one. Space Marines are outnumbered millions, if not billions, to one. The IG outnumber Space Marines more than 300 to one with tanks alone.

Or to be more bluntly, I'm ignoring the mere technicality of the separation of the navy and the guard, because it's the only argument you have and it's a silly argument.

Theyre not outnumbered billions to one LOL
That would mean there were a quadrillion guard. That's like the entire imperium.
A smart marine can kill thousands of guardsmen by leading them on and guerilla warfare by his lonesome.
They only become more effective when in groups with thier cohesive unity.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Virus_bomb#.UkIBNyPD-M8

I quote from lexicanum
"The virus [The Life-Eater Virus from Virus bombs] can penetrate power armour and rebreathers."
So good luck melting yourself space marines......

 Engine of War wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Virus_bomb#.UkIBNyPD-M8

I quote from lexicanum
"The virus [The Life-Eater Virus from Virus bombs] can penetrate power armour and rebreathers."
So good luck melting yourself space marines......

Didn't 2/3 of the marines survive the Istvaan 5 virus bombings?

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Virus_bomb#.UkIBNyPD-M8

I quote from lexicanum
"The virus [The Life-Eater Virus from Virus bombs] can penetrate power armour and rebreathers."
So good luck melting yourself space marines......

Didn't 2/3 of the marines survive the Istvaan 5 virus bombings?

In bomb shelters yes, those that didn't make it to the shelters died.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Virus_bomb#.UkIBNyPD-M8

I quote from lexicanum
"The virus [The Life-Eater Virus from Virus bombs] can penetrate power armour and rebreathers."
So good luck melting yourself space marines......

Didn't 2/3 of the marines survive the Istvaan 5 virus bombings?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Isstvan_III#.UkICySPD-M8

once again quote lexicanum.

"Captain Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children, working on a hunch, had managed to remain in the fleet, where he discovered the planned bombardment and commandeered a Thunderhawk to save his betrayed brethren. Thanks to Tarvitz's warning, a few hundred loyal Space Marines managed to survive inside airtight bunkers and bomb shelters. As the putrid gases resulting from the rapidly decaying organic matter filled the atmosphere, Horus ignited a firestorm on the planet which melted the hives and razed the cities. The psychic death scream of the twelve billion is said to have been louder than the Astronomican[1][2][3].

Despite this, many loyalists of the four Legions managed to survive, and an enraged Angron, acting against Horus's orders, led his Legion to the surface to slaughter the survivors. Horus, trying to salvage the situation, sent detachments of all his Legions to slay the Loyalists. The Loyalists, fighting tenaciously, turned the planned slaughter into a full-scale battle. Under the command of Captains Garviel Loken and Tarik Torgaddon of the Sons of Horus (redubbed the Luna Wolves), Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children, and Ehrlen of the World Eaters, the loyalists were able to mount a surprising defence in the ruins of the capital city. Ultimately, the Loyalists were crushed, in part to Lucius's betrayal and the orbital bombardment of the Choral City, but made Horus pay dearly. The battle lasted for three months and inflicted huge losses upon the traitors. It was a Pyrrhic victory at best. While the battle raged upon the planet, a handful of loyalists led by Captain Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard managed to commandeer the frigate Eisenstein and fled to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. "

Only a handful who fled on the frigate. which is a lot less then 2/3rds. And those who survived the Vbombs survived by airtight bunkers... not their power armor alone.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Or more likely than not the insignificant number of Space Marines gets wiped out fairly quickly by superior firepower, because no, space marines can't resist direct hits from heavy weapons.

It's not that Space Marines are outnumbered 300 to one. Space Marines are outnumbered millions, if not billions, to one. The IG outnumber Space Marines more than 300 to one with tanks alone.

Or to be more bluntly, I'm ignoring the mere technicality of the separation of the navy and the guard, because it's the only argument you have and it's a silly argument.

Theyre not outnumbered billions to one LOL

They may be, there are plural *billions* of IG regiments, no specific number given, if it's on the upper end of that scale...yeah.

That would mean there were a quadrillion guard. That's like the entire imperium.

Possibly, but we just don't have that kind of data. Lets just say the Imperium has 1 million worlds, and the average population is equal to that of modern day Earth's. Lets say 1% of the population are in the Imperial Guard, a rather low estimate for an empire constantly engaged in massive large scale warfare. That gives us 70,000,000,000,000 guardsmen, or 70,000,000 (seventy million) per Space Marine. This isn't counting things like Hive worlds increasing that average population and using a very low conscription rate.

A smart marine can kill thousands of guardsmen by leading them on and guerilla warfare by his lonesome.

Based on what? How the hell is he even going to have that much ammo? And this is assuming the IG are complete idiots running blindly into stupid traps like pants-on-head slowed people, not trained and experienced combat troops.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Or more likely than not the insignificant number of Space Marines gets wiped out fairly quickly by superior firepower, because no, space marines can't resist direct hits from heavy weapons.

It's not that Space Marines are outnumbered 300 to one. Space Marines are outnumbered millions, if not billions, to one. The IG outnumber Space Marines more than 300 to one with tanks alone.

Or to be more bluntly, I'm ignoring the mere technicality of the separation of the navy and the guard, because it's the only argument you have and it's a silly argument.

Theyre not outnumbered billions to one LOL

They may be, there are plural *billions* of IG regiments, no specific number given, if it's on the upper end of that scale...yeah.

That would mean there were a quadrillion guard. That's like the entire imperium.

Possibly, but we just don't have that kind of data. Lets just say the Imperium has 1 million worlds, and the average population is equal to that of modern day Earth's. Lets say 1% of the population are in the Imperial Guard, a rather low estimate for an empire constantly engaged in massive large scale warfare. That gives us 70,000,000,000,000 guardsmen, or 70,000,000 (seventy million) per Space Marine. This isn't counting things like Hive worlds increasing that average population and using a very low conscription rate.

A smart marine can kill thousands of guardsmen by leading them on and guerilla warfare by his lonesome.

Based on what? How the hell is he even going to have that much ammo? And this is assuming the IG are complete idiots running blindly into stupid traps like pants-on-head slowed people, not trained and experienced combat troops.

Trained and experienced? The average guardsmen? Naw, man, average guardsmen doesn't live to long.
A lot of basic guardsmen are complete idiots and the marine could just corner a small grouping and beat them to death with his hands then cheese it. He could do that constantly until he runs into bad luck. That's what I meant. It would have to be very dark, they'd have to be scared to death, they'd have to be in groupings. A lot of factors have to be in his favor to do that.

It comes down to who writes it and who are the main characters.
SM main characters?
IG/PDF die in droves to make bad guys seem powerful vs SM characters who then swoop in and win the day,

IG main characters?
SM are powerful but IG are still highly trained, intelligent and powerful in their own right, high casualties in IG is just a way off life, but beating opponents that even SM would find tough makes them all the much more heroic.


Read both sides of the story (i.e read both SM and IG novels)

Not all IG are incompetent. Some are capable of putting down full blown demon incursions or other acts of gods just like SM.

Going with Vakathi's estimations:

Picture one tactical marine.
Now that one marine has to contend with 70,000,000 guardsmen. Alone. If he buddies up, he's got his buddies' 70,000,000 to deal with too. That's 140,000,000 vs 2. Those 140,000,000 will have some fun toys; plasma, melta, snipers (pfft), frag and krak grenades, all sorts. Assuming your space marines survive the storm of fire coming their way, including those plasma and melta blasts, They also have their own ammo to worry about - no one is carrying 70,000,000 rounds of ammo. No one.

Before anyone brings up morale, I'm gonna point out that I have another 139,999,999 guys backing me up. If we run, that just gives the guys behind me a clearer shot at the Space Marine. With their plasmas, meltas, lasguns, heavy weapons, etc.

Think you're getting relief from armoured support? Think again. We have more Baneblades than you have Marines. Just take that in for a minute. Not just more men, not just more tanks, more Baneblades You know, those massive superheavy tanks that are feared by Space Marines? Yeah. More than one of those for each of you.

The IG take overwhelming odds and turn it up to 11 when it comes to Marines. Not saying Marines are bad, but they simply could not hope to wipe out the Imperial Guard.

Regardless of who wins and who loses, where's the actual figure of over 1 million Baneblades in the Imperium from? It's thrown around a lot, but I don't think I've ever seen it.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Going with Vakathi's estimations:

Picture one tactical marine.
Now that one marine has to contend with 70,000,000 guardsmen. Alone. If he buddies up, he's got his buddies' 70,000,000 to deal with too. That's 140,000,000 vs 2. Those 140,000,000 will have some fun toys; plasma, melta, snipers (pfft), frag and krak grenades, all sorts. Assuming your space marines survive the storm of fire coming their way, including those plasma and melta blasts, They also have their own ammo to worry about - no one is carrying 70,000,000 rounds of ammo. No one.

Before anyone brings up morale, I'm gonna point out that I have another 139,999,999 guys backing me up. If we run, that just gives the guys behind me a clearer shot at the Space Marine. With their plasmas, meltas, lasguns, heavy weapons, etc.

Think you're getting relief from armoured support? Think again. We have more Baneblades than you have Marines. Just take that in for a minute. Not just more men, not just more tanks, more Baneblades You know, those massive superheavy tanks that are feared by Space Marines? Yeah. More than one of those for each of you.

The IG take overwhelming odds and turn it up to 11 when it comes to Marines. Not saying Marines are bad, but they simply could not hope to wipe out the Imperial Guard.

Are you actually thinking a single marine will willingly face an army? They would decimate entire planets with their fleets too heavily defended to attack on the ground, and then softer up every other planet ( killing every titan and superheavy they can spot )

Most claims are that Baneblades are often rarely seen and those who have them have 1 to 10 under their command with "very few" regiments having them.
Consider there are Billions or more regiments and that "very few" in terms of billions can number in the upper hundred thousands to low ten millions (or more, this is a really low and rough estimate)


Lets say that about 500,000 regiments have access to 5 Baneblades each.
That's about 2,500,000 or 2 Million 5 hundred thousand Baneblade Super Tanks.

This does not count all of the Baneblades varients.
With the Standard Baneblade there is the Banehammer, HellHammer, Stormblade, StormSword, Shadowsword, StormHammer, Stormlord and Banesword.

Each of which carries a weapon that can easily turn any space marine into dust, if not enough firepower from secondary weapons alone to vaporize space marines.

Ok, we're throwing around some crazy numbers. Lets nails these down: 5 Segmentums with sectors 200 ly across, using the BFG estimates of degree at which wilderness space exceeding controlled space, that's roughly 5,000 sectors per Segmentum (I'm averaging, they're clearly not all the same size). Each sector Battlefleet has roughly 50 warp capable craft (as per BFG), the majority of which are frigates and destroyers. Drawing from a few campaign maps I can find (FF, Abnett, Black Crusades etc), it looks like 5 is a reasonable number of subsectors per sector

We learned in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series and the Word Bearer novels that a subsector is roughly 10 settled planets with a recognizable population. Given the sparse settling patterns of some planets, the medieval worlds and agri worlds that have villages at best across them and the dense populations of others, a million seems to be a reasonable and very conservative estimate of "average" population.

So, 10 planets x 5 subsectors = 50 substantially occupied planets in a sector... which is usually as large as scale as a military operation we get in a novel or campaign book

50 planets for 50 warships to protect explains why enemies can dig in on Imperium planets (as they often do in the novels) before help arrives.

50 planets x 5,000 sectors = 250,000 significantly occuppied planets in a Segmentum or 1,250,000 planets in the Imperium (if you hunt my numbers, you'll see that I'm being very conservative on all of this).

After that its up to you to decide how many regiments per million the IoM has, but it is 50 warships per 50 planets/ 50 million people so you scale from there. Looking at the Gaunt and other IG novels, I feel safe saying that a 1:2 ratio between warships and deployable (non-PDF) regiments with their attending support would work.

Going with a very low number of 2,500 troops or 50 tanks per regiment (pulling from the IA books)... that's 5,000,000,000 IG personnel (many in tanks etc) not tied down to a planet's defense but able to be deployed in actions across the IoM... so a 5,000 to 1 odds for a Space Marine (but again, there's room for tanks and such already figured in, and that doesn't account for all the IG and PDF not being moved around from warzone to warzone, which I think would very conservatively would be 10 times that amount). I feel this compliments well with IG codex numbers on page 6.

So... being very very conservative with the fluff and numbers, that's 55,000 to 1 odds against our Marines (again with tanks and their crews counting as "1", and without Titans, Navy, etc factored in at all).

...dang, now I have to close the 20 tabs and clear as many books, novels, and print out on my desk. I've always wanted to do that. You could easily make a case for x1,00 or more increase in that number (especially in planetary population, but I intentionally went with fleet support to IG assets as a basis for figuring, as that was a hard number in the fluff and easier to estimate off the BL sources), because I always went with the lowest numbers supportable, which vary widely. If you scale it beyond x100 then some of the dominant sources, like codices, supplements, and the rulebooks fluff doesn't work... but at 55,000:1 to 5,500,000:1 I really didn't have to violate too many sources and the big ones kept their integrity.

I've left all the math open for you all, so you can play with my numbers where you feel I've errored (or if I made a mistake) and adjust it all accordingly.

You're welcome

EDIT: Somethings I've thought of as an addendum: I left the Segmentum Bastion Fleets, Command Fleets, and Reserve Fleets out of the figures, as we have no hard data as to how they scale out and were their additional assets are drawn from. I must also comment that the fluff in most novels, codices, and the main rulebook is actually fairly consistent and the numbers figured from one source often complimented the other... surprising isn't it?

EDIT2: made it 5 subsectors to a sector so that there is roughly a million worlds, nothing else really needs to change, as I scaled it all to sectors, not planets

Also remeber scouts do NOT count against the 1k limit of space marines, many chapters have several hundreds of scouts.

 Lobukia wrote:
Ok, we're throwing around some crazy numbers. Lets nails these down: 5 Segmentums with sectors 200 ly across, using the BFG estimates of degree at which wilderness space exceeding controlled space, that's roughly 5,000 sectors per Segmentum (I'm averaging, they're clearly not all the same size). Each sector Battlefleet has roughly 50 warp capable craft (as per BFG), the majority of which are frigates and destroyers. Drawing from a few campaign maps I can find (FF, Abnett, Black Crusades etc), it looks like 20 is a reasonable number of subsectors per sector

We learned in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series and the Word Bearer novels that a subsector is roughly 10 settled planets with a recognizable population. Given the sparse settling patterns of some planets, the medieval worlds and agri worlds that have villages at best across them and the dense populations of others, a million seems to be a reasonable and very conservative estimate of "average" population.

So, 10 planets x 20 subsectors = 200 substantially occupied planets in a sector... which is usually as large as scale as a military operation we get in a novel or campaign book

200 planets for 50 warships to protect explains why enemies can dig in on Imperium planets (as they often do in the novels) before help arrives.

200 planets x 5,000 sectors = 1,000,000 significantly occuppied planets in a Segmentum or 5,000,000 planets in the Imperium (if you hunt my numbers, you'll see that I'm being very conservative on all of this).

After that its up to you to decide how many regiments per million the IoM has, but it is 50 warships per 200 planets/ 200 million people so you scale from there. Looking at the Gaunt and other IG novels, I feel safe saying that a 1:2 ratio between warships and deployable (non-PDF) regiments with their attending support would work.

Going with a very low number of 2,500 troops or 50 tanks per regiment (pulling from the IA books)... that's 5,000,000,000 IG personnel (many in tanks etc) not tied down to a planet's defense but able to be deployed in actions across the IoM... so a 5,000 to 1 odds for a Space Marine (but again, there's room for tanks and such already figured in, and that doesn't account for all the IG and PDF not being moved around from warzone to warzone, which I think would very conservatively would be 10 times that amount). I feel this compliments well with IG codex numbers on page 6.

So... being very very conservative with the fluff and numbers, that's 55,000 to 1 odds against our Marines (again with tanks and their crews counting as "1", and without Titans, Navy, etc factored in at all).

...dang, now I have to close the 20 tabs and clear as many books, novels, and print out on my desk. I've always wanted to do that. You could easily make a case for x1,00 or more increase in that number (especially in planetary population, but I intentionally went with fleet support to IG assets as a basis for figuring, as that was a hard number in the fluff and easier to estimate off the BL sources), because I always went with the lowest numbers supportable, which vary widely. If you scale it beyond x100 then some of the dominant sources, like codices, supplements, and the rulebooks fluff doesn't work... but at 55,000:1 to 5,500,000:1 I really didn't have to violate too many sources and the big ones kept their integrity.

I've left all the math open for you all, so you can play with my numbers where you feel I've errored (or if I made a mistake) and adjust it all accordingly.

You're welcome

EDIT: Somethings I've thought of as an addendum: I left the Segmentum Bastion Fleets, Command Fleets, and Reserve Fleets out of the figures, as we have no hard data as to how they scale out and were their additional assets are drawn from. I must also comment that the fluff in most novels, codices, and the main rulebook is actually fairly consistent and the numbers figured from one source often complimented the other... surprising isn't it?

Problem...

It is said that the Imperium is comprised of one million worlds.

 Psienesis wrote:

Problem...

It is said that the Imperium is comprised of one million worlds.

No, over a million worlds, page 180 BRB... in fact it reads "backed by the weight of over a million worlds"... 5 million falls well within this. If I go lower, the BFG fleet breakdowns start to fall apart and if I go over the fluff on the IG falls apart. I was actually pretty deliberate with all my numbers... of course you can settle on whatever you want. Make a subsector 2 planets (seems weird, but whatever) and it works. If the sectors fall too far beneath 5,000 per Segmentum then it can't be in the Milky Way as the star maps and the size of sectors won't agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I must say, in working all of this out... the IoM really is spread very thin (planet wise) and its easy to see how Maiden or Tomb worlds can exist unmolested... as would unknown planets, Ork Fiefdoms and drifting craftworlds.

The Imperium has always been said to number roughly a million worlds, one Space Marine per world (those numbers have always lined up). "Over a million worlds" while it technically could mean 50 billion worlds, generally means it's got over one million worlds, less than 2 million worlds...

.... but it has always been stated to be an "Imperium of a million worlds".

The Imperium is huge and vast, but it's not that vast.

It should also be noted that the Imperium loses worlds faster than it finds them.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Imperium has always been said to number roughly a million worlds, one Space Marine per world (those numbers have always lined up). "Over a million worlds" while it technically could mean 50 billion worlds, generally means it's got over one million worlds, less than 2 million worlds...
.

Well then sectors can't be 200 ly across (we know they are) or subsectors average 2 planets per each (they're based on population and worlds, not size like sectors) even though I cannot find any example anywhere of a subsector under 5 worlds and many are in the teens. But sure, I'll take the cheap shot and concede that its 1 million worlds. Then the only elastic number, subsectors, drops to 5 per sector, and 50 planets per sector (an IN warship and a Space Marine for every planet, then) if that lets you read the rest of it. As I said, adjust the numbers as you need to.

As my numbers are based on sector fleets, none of the final values change

 Psienesis wrote:
The Imperium has always been said to number roughly a million worlds, one Space Marine per world (those numbers have always lined up). "Over a million worlds" while it technically could mean 50 billion worlds, generally means it's got over one million worlds, less than 2 million worlds...

.... but it has always been stated to be an "Imperium of a million worlds".

The Imperium is huge and vast, but it's not that vast.

It should also be noted that the Imperium loses worlds faster than it finds them.

Only in the 40th millenium. They actually went through at least 3 huge growth phases after the horus heresy and have only been in the age of the end recently. Most of this is due to over expansion of the IoM military during the Age of Redemption which leads to the age of waning which 40K just left for the age of the end. The funny thing is that the "Golden Age" happened ~2000 years after the horus heresy and only ended due to power wrangling and corruption.

I would also call any number between 4.9 to 1.1 million "over a million" worlds. These numbers all round to a million if your accuracy is did that sector disappear in a warp storm for a couple years or get eaten by tyranids? The accuracy of IoM polling could only be to the millions place.

raiden wrote:
Also remeber scouts do NOT count against the 1k limit of space marines, many chapters have several hundreds of scouts.

Don't the space wolves operate at full legion strength? Like in theory 100,000-300,000 dudes?
A lot of chapters give the codex the middle finger and operate at numbers far greater than 1,000.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Imperium has always been said to number roughly a million worlds, one Space Marine per world (those numbers have always lined up). "Over a million worlds" while it technically could mean 50 billion worlds, generally means it's got over one million worlds, less than 2 million worlds...
.

Well then sectors can't be 200 ly across (we know they are) or subsectors average 2 planets per each (they're based on population and worlds, not size like sectors) even though I cannot find any example anywhere of a subsector under 5 worlds and many are in the teens. But sure, I'll take the cheap shot and concede that its 1 million worlds. Then the only elastic number, subsectors, drops to 5 per sector, and 50 planets per sector (an IN warship and a Space Marine for every planet, then) if that lets you read the rest of it. As I said, adjust the numbers as you need to.

As my numbers are based on sector fleets, none of the final values change

This also in theory isn't counting the marine homeworlds numbering in the thousands with a thousand marines a piece.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:


This also in theory isn't counting the marine homeworlds numbering in the thousands with a thousand marines a piece.

...why isn't it? They're in sector and subsector and can be anything from a Hiveworld to a death world (some Chapters don't even have a world as they are fleet based, on a penitent crusade, or the like)

BTW: probably not more than 2,500 SW

 Lobukia wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:


This also in theory isn't counting the marine homeworlds numbering in the thousands with a thousand marines a piece.

...why isn't it? They're in sector and subsector and can be anything from a Hiveworld to a death world (some Chapters don't even have a world as they are fleet based, on a penitent crusade, or the like)

BTW: probably not more than 2,500 SW

I'm assuming you know what a legion is. Back during the great crusade the Wolves had one of the biggest legions, and they just never split up. They've taken heavy losses, Magnus has made sure of that.
But 2500, for what was once a legion with a great recruiting base of heroes like Fenris? That's too few, it's probably like 10,000.

its agreeded on about 10k SW

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:


This also in theory isn't counting the marine homeworlds numbering in the thousands with a thousand marines a piece.

...why isn't it? They're in sector and subsector and can be anything from a Hiveworld to a death world (some Chapters don't even have a world as they are fleet based, on a penitent crusade, or the like)

BTW: probably not more than 2,500 SW

I'm assuming you know what a legion is. Back during the great crusade the Wolves had one of the biggest legions, and they just never split up. They've taken heavy losses, Magnus has made sure of that.
But 2500, for what was once a legion with a great recruiting base of heroes like Fenris? That's too few, it's probably like 10,000.

I'm assuming you don't know what a codex is. Seriously, I just poured over 50+ sources to figure out a sustainable model for the size of the Imperium, and a few posts after that you're going to explain HH events to me?! SW codex has Ragnar's Great Company as the second largest... with just over 200 members. I wasn't guessing or asking, I was telling: not more than 2,500 SW and it should be way less than that.

Yeah, the SW are not a massive Chapter, and their one-and-only Homeworld doesn't have the population to permit massive recruitment drives.

They also have no successful Successor Chapters. The SW Geneseed only works on native Fenrisians, so there will, apparently, never *be* any SW Successors.


ETA: Also, a Sub-sector is not just based on planetary population, or presence of such, but, additionally, the presence of major worlds or major intersections of stable warp-routes, whether there's a planet there or not. So while the total list of sub-sectors is not provided by GW, it's conceivable that a great many of them simply have only 1 inhabited planet, and many more have none.

Though it is noted that a sub-sector is generally ten to twenty light-years apart... and populated Imperial worlds may be separated by hundreds or thousands of light-years of distance from its closest neighbor. This would also indicate that there are many sub-sectors with absolutely zero permanent human residents.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, the SW are not a massive Chapter, and their one-and-only Homeworld doesn't have the population to permit massive recruitment drives.

They also have no successful Successor Chapters. The SW Geneseed only works on native Fenrisians, so there will, apparently, never *be* any SW Successors.


ETA: Also, a Sub-sector is not just based on planetary population, or presence of such, but, additionally, the presence of major worlds or major intersections of stable warp-routes, whether there's a planet there or not. So while the total list of sub-sectors is not provided by GW, it's conceivable that a great many of them simply have only 1 inhabited planet, and many more have none.

Though it is noted that a sub-sector is generally ten to twenty light-years apart... and populated Imperial worlds may be separated by hundreds or thousands of light-years of distance from its closest neighbor. This would also indicate that there are many sub-sectors with absolutely zero permanent human residents.

Yeah, factored all that in. That's why if you check my math there is so few subsectors per sector.... and they aren't ten to twenty LY apart, its ten to twenty LY across. That's why out of 8,000,000 cubic LY in a sector you have only 5 occupied sub sectors (I never kept track of unoccupied subsector as they won't include one of your "million" planets and won't be founding regiments).

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ChakLong wrote:

What people also seem to be forgetting is that the Imperial Guard is just one part of the Imperium's military, and does not include things such as the Imperial Navy.

Not including the IN is absurd, the IG doesn't operate without the IN, and their command structures are intertwined and connected at the strategic level, and both operate under the auspices of the Munitorum. You simply do not have one without the other. It's like saying you can't count Chapter serfs for the SM's, in which case they cease to be able to operate a navy, maintain their equipment, or defend their homeworld.

I know it is absurd to not include the Imperial Navy and the Munitorum, which is why I dislike it when people make up situations in which the "Imperial Guard" fight the "Space Marines". It is JUST the Imperial Guard versus JUST Space Marines, or really the forces of the Space Marines versus the main military forces of the Imperium (or the Imperial Army as it would be called before the Horus Heresy)? Too many details to sort out. Ah, Imperial Bureaucracy.