The official end of 40k *Not for the weak of heart*

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**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Grey Templar wrote:
You also forgot they had to detonate the Warp Drive of an Emperor class Battleship to suck most of the fleet into the Warp.

Which really makes it quite easy for them to win next time. I understand the value (both monetary and symbolic) value of technology to the Imperium but if all they really need to do is sacrifice one ship (or Warp drive in pretty much anything floating in space) to plunge such a vast area of space into the Warp (or destroy most of what was in it) then the Tyranids aren't really much of a threat.

**darthnatus**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
You also forgot they had to detonate the Warp Drive of an Emperor class Battleship to suck most of the fleet into the Warp.

Which really makes it quite easy for them to win next time. I understand the value (both monetary and symbolic) value of technology to the Imperium but if all they really need to do is sacrifice one ship (or Warp drive in pretty much anything floating in space) to plunge such a vast area of space into the Warp (or destroy most of what was in it) then the Tyranids aren't really much of a threat.

[i[You[/i] forget that all Tyranids are connected by the Hive Mind, they know what happened and they know to avoid that. Kind of. And by that point in the battle the fleet really wasn't all that big, it being one of the smallest fleets so far and being whittled away at for months in advance it could have been much bigger.

**Lobokai**

@OP I'm sure I've heard a bigger pile of BS on the Bkgrnd forum before... but I can't think of one. If you're not shoveling it, someone else is feeding you a load of crap.

0% credibility (its not even a good lie, which is almost more offensive than just a lie)

**IHateNids**

One theory Ive always liked

A few of the Primarchs return, find out what the High Lords are doing to the Imperium as a whole and reclaim control of their own legions and lead them against the High Lords. Both sides have military assets out the wazoo. the resulting mess ends up being The Primarchs running the Imperium. This returns the Imperium under competent leadership, at which point in time, it decides to embark upon a repulsion crusade against the Tyranids. They pick up any and all help along the way, and eventually push the Nids out of the galaxy, hitting them hard enough to make the Hive Mind realise that the galaxy is not Biomass efficient enough to attack it again. At this point, they return to the eye of terror, and launch a crusade within to cleanse the Traitor Legions (Alphas start stabbing Chaos people in the back, as they do). The Chaos forces scatter, as they do, but many (inc Abaddon) are slain, so they become small bands

I cant think of anything the other races would do.

Necrons wake themselves up in their entirety, probably have another crack at claiming back the Dragon from the vaults of Mars.
Tau continue expanding.
Orks are given the fight of their lives as everyone around them returns to full power
Eldar continue their "just as planned" shenanigans, maybe coming together to try and save their Dark kin.
Grey Knights are brought to justice over their senseless team killings by the Primarchs
Imperial guard is sent to do just that. Guard vital things. Cadian Gate etc

Then we drop back into the random crap that is everyone just hitting each other, rather than the impending doom that is the current 40k setting.

**herpguy**

Don't the xenos in Legion pretty much tell Alpharius that if the Emperor kills Horus than there will be 10,000 years of drawn out suffering for humanity rather than the 100 years in which Horus would conquer the galaxy, leaving no more people to chaosify and burning out chaos?
That is an early indication that chaos will probably win in M42.

**Themanwiththeplan**

Never believe a xenos, brother. They speak lies and half truths to further their own ends.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

darthnatus wrote:

[i[You[/i] forget that all Tyranids are connected by the Hive Mind, they know what happened and they know to avoid that. Kind of. And by that point in the battle the fleet really wasn't all that big, it being one of the smallest fleets so far and being whittled away at for months in advance it could have been much bigger.

The only way to avoid it would be to significantly spread out their fleet, rendering them less effective. It still completely turned the tide of battle against a vastly numerically superior force. Pretty handy trick. It's not as if the Imperium doesn't have plenty of people willing to give their life for the cause.

**Iyandenseer**

The Ultrasmurfs defeated a minor tyranid incursion, lost most of their men, and didn't even stop the tyranid advance. Instead splinter fleets broke in every direction from Maccrage and now the Tyranids are harder to contain than ever. To make matters worse the largest hive fleet to date, rumored to contain the hive mind, is approaching Terra directly from the Z axis relevant to the galactic plane, which means they're coming from the fething sky! And there's more coming, many many more. The Tyranids don't eat galaxies just to be stopped so easily.

The Necrons are just as bad, but they are with number. Advanced technology such as there's is going to give the IOM one hell of a run for their money.

All of this on top of Chaos who is the IOM's equal and antithetical force.

The whole place is doomed. Hurray for my Eldar, hopefully we'll survive.

But as to the post Astronomicon warp travel question, I think that warp jumps will greatly increase in difficulty, but I feel that since Humans are willing to plunge further into the warp than the Tau, their warp jumps will outdistance any pebble skipping, but it all depends on how bold the navigator is and the importance of expedient travel.

**raiden**

Iyandenseer wrote:
The Ultrasmurfs defeated a minor tyranid incursion, lost most of their men, and didn't even stop the tyranid advance. Instead splinter fleets broke in every direction from Maccrage and now the Tyranids are harder to contain than ever. To make matters worse the largest hive fleet to date, rumored to contain the hive mind, is approaching Terra directly from the Z axis relevant to the galactic plane, which means they're coming from the fething sky! And there's more coming, many many more. The Tyranids don't eat galaxies just to be stopped so easily.

The Necrons are just as bad, but they are with number. Advanced technology such as there's is going to give the IOM one hell of a run for their money.

All of this on top of Chaos who is the IOM's equal and antithetical force.

The whole place is doomed. Hurray for my Eldar, hopefully we'll survive.

But as to the post Astronomicon warp travel question, I think that warp jumps will greatly increase in difficulty, but I feel that since Humans are willing to plunge further into the warp than the Tau, their warp jumps will outdistance any pebble skipping, but it all depends on how bold the navigator is and the importance of expedient travel.

I like the eldar too, and orks, they both will survive no matter what happens (I see an ork world holding out forever, constant war with orks the size of mountains!) but no, whether or not it was a small fleet it was utterly destroyed, (isn't there a "hive mind" in every hive fleet?) the smurfs lost about 2 companies worth 1st and another that I have forgotten. along with most of the PDF. who is to say what is in the other galaxies, if any other sentient life existed? the Imperium has not endured this long against so many foes to be "eaten" to easily .

**darthnatus**

raiden wrote:
Iyandenseer wrote:
The Ultrasmurfs defeated a minor tyranid incursion, lost most of their men, and didn't even stop the tyranid advance. Instead splinter fleets broke in every direction from Maccrage and now the Tyranids are harder to contain than ever. To make matters worse the largest hive fleet to date, rumored to contain the hive mind, is approaching Terra directly from the Z axis relevant to the galactic plane, which means they're coming from the fething sky! And there's more coming, many many more. The Tyranids don't eat galaxies just to be stopped so easily.

The Necrons are just as bad, but they are with number. Advanced technology such as there's is going to give the IOM one hell of a run for their money.

All of this on top of Chaos who is the IOM's equal and antithetical force.

The whole place is doomed. Hurray for my Eldar, hopefully we'll survive.

But as to the post Astronomicon warp travel question, I think that warp jumps will greatly increase in difficulty, but I feel that since Humans are willing to plunge further into the warp than the Tau, their warp jumps will outdistance any pebble skipping, but it all depends on how bold the navigator is and the importance of expedient travel.

I like the eldar too, and orks, they both will survive no matter what happens (I see an ork world holding out forever, constant war with orks the size of mountains!) but no, whether or not it was a small fleet it was utterly destroyed, (isn't there a "hive mind" in every hive fleet?) the smurfs lost about 2 companies worth 1st and another that I have forgotten. along with most of the PDF. who is to say what is in the other galaxies, if any other sentient life existed? the Imperium has not endured this long against so many foes to be "eaten" to easily .

The other foes were different, they didn't run at 100% efficiency. Tyranids break the laws of the Universe they can't be stopped except by the Necrons who are also the IoM's enemy. And the Hive Mind is not just one creature in charge, it is a hierarchy in which the Norn Queens (or whatever is in charge of the main fleet) are at the top. They can make new Norn Queens when recouping losses. The IoM takes decads to replace a single Space Marine, for Tyranids to replace an entire wave they just need to send in some Rippers.

**raiden**

you do not understand the Nid reproduction. it takes a VERY long time for the hive to form a carnifex or tyrant, (not as long as a marine, granted and even less for the little guys) but the IoM can produce marines a lot faster, (also a marine only takes at most a decade to be considered a marine, less for scouts, training, then a few years in the sleep chamber, then a bit more training, the training can be "battle experience".) they can also produce them even quicker if necessary (though this is extremely painful and dangerous) also, if one PDF and ~250 marines held off a hive fleet and killed it, I believe terra will be able to hold of several at once.

**IHateNids**

might it be worth noting that most of the Xenos races would happily unite against the Nids if it came to it, once the IoM got over its Xenophobia

I say most because Daemons are of Chaos, so are out, Orks are not the type of people you negotiate with, unless you can convince them it'll be fun (which it probably will for them), and there are too many of the Necron Phaerons hate everything. Some will listen, but not all.

I think a united galaxy could easily turn the Nids away, backtrack them and destroy it all

**Cold**

raiden wrote:
you do not understand the Nid reproduction. it takes a VERY long time for the hive to form a carnifex or tyrant, (not as long as a marine, granted and even less for the little guys) but the IoM can produce marines a lot faster, (also a marine only takes at most a decade to be considered a marine, less for scouts, training, then a few years in the sleep chamber, then a bit more training, the training can be "battle experience".) they can also produce them even quicker if necessary (though this is extremely painful and dangerous) also, if one PDF and ~250 marines held off a hive fleet and killed it, I believe terra will be able to hold of several at once.

Wait... I thought it mentions in the fluff that they can strip a planet lifeless in less than 100 days... Wouldn't this mean them pushing out at least one tyrant during this time period?

Also when fighting Nids, chapters that lose the battle also lose their gene seed (nids eat all biomass) potentially meaning the death of the Chapter if enough is lost. Even if the chapters had 100% body recovery rates, IIRC a dead marine who was enhanced for 5-10 years can replace himself, those that were a marine for around 25 years can give enough gene seed for one additional marine, no more. At a certain point all out war with the Nids will run the Chapters dry of gene seed.

Here's what I'm using as a reference to Tyranid breeding/reproduction. I'm guessing that by day 37 the big units are roaming around for the hive mind to control.

Day 01: Mycetic spores are dropped, mostly containing Lictors and Genestealers. As soon as they hit the ground, the reproduction of Tyranid creatures likely begins immediately.
Day 09: By now, the Tyranid infestation will have expanded to around 250 km around the drop point, and will likely present a significant threat to planetary defense force troopers and the resident Imperial Guard.
Day 13: Tyranids have expanded to 700 km from the drop point; some may begin infesting local water sources.
Day 37: Tyranids completely control the area within 2,000 km radius of the drop point and basolithic infestation has begun to reach a 5,000 km radius from the drop point of the first mycetic spores.
Day 48: Tyranid population growth becomes exponential, with population doubling approximately every 3 days.
Day 50: The main Hive Fleet arrives, with the number of Tyranid craft in the swarm generally numbering around 1.5 billion. All psychic contact with the planet through the Warp is cut off by the Warp shadow of the Hive Mind. Any attempts to escape are quickly stopped by the Hive Fleet. Any remaining surface life is eliminated by Gaunts.
Day 51: Primary consumption of planetary biomass begins (any sentient resistance has generally been eliminated by now). Brood ships land, releasing Ripper swarms, which consume all organic material (even the other Tyranids) and deposit it at the reclamation pools. Capillary towers (and the Brood ships) send the material into orbit for use by the Hive Fleet.
Day 80: Ripper swarms board the Brood ships and return to the Hive Fleet. The hive ships descend into the upper atmosphere and begin collecting it. Reduction in atmospheric pressure causes oceans to boil away, which are also collected so that their free water can be used by the fleet. The loss of ocean mass causes plate tectonic shifts, dramatically increasing volcanic activity across the victimized world. Upon completion, the Hive Fleet leaves the planet and reenters the Warp in search of fresh prey.
Day 100: The Imperial Navy arrives in response to the planet's original Astropathic distress call, only to find a destroyed, lifeless, uninhabitable planet.

**IHateNids**

As far as Tyranids go, would Exterminatusing a few Planets in their path (after evacuating vital military assests, eg any Titans or other Super-Heavies there may be stored there, Imperial Generals etc) slow them down anything at all? A Virus bomb breaks down biomass, then burns the atmosphere.

Im pretty damn sure if the Biomass must be destroyed anyway, it's beneficial to everyone to deny it from the Nids

**TiamatRoar**

IHateNids wrote:
As far as Tyranids go, would Exterminatusing a few Planets in their path (after evacuating vital military assests, eg any Titans or other Super-Heavies there may be stored there, Imperial Generals etc) slow them down anything at all? A Virus bomb breaks down biomass, then burns the atmosphere.

Im pretty damn sure if the Biomass must be destroyed anyway, it's beneficial to everyone to deny it from the Nids

Inquisitor Kryptman tried that strategy. Once the Imperium stopped throwing a hissyfit over the fact that he basically genocided almost as many people as the Horus Heresy, they realized that his strategy could work but it would basically involve anihilating the entire outer rim of planets around 3 dimensions of the entire friggin' galaxy (cause that's how many directions the Tyrannids have actually attacked the galaxy from. Picture the galaxy as a little ball and the tyranid potential directions of attack as a giant mouth that surrounds 3/4ths of it), which just isn't feasible.

**IHateNids**

Well, I meant just in the path of the actual tendrils digging their way in. They require using energy to move, and if they cannot reclaim it for extended periods of time, they grow weaker. Thus, more manageable

**TiamatRoar**

IHateNids wrote:
Well, I meant just in the path of the actual tendrils digging their way in. They require using energy to move, and if they cannot reclaim it for extended periods of time, they grow weaker. Thus, more manageable

I don't think the Imperium beaurocracy can react fast enough to call in and perform "just in time" exterminatuses, if that's what you mean.

**necrondog99**

I think it would be hilarious if the end of 40K was that Imperial Beuracracy got so top heavy that the entire ediface collapsed under its own weight essentially dissolving the Imperial Government / Imperial Cult much the same way the Byzantine Empire phased out. The Galactic economy would collapse. This would leave the galaxy to the Xenos and the Chaos types, and the local worlds would have to fend for themeselves and maybe even borrow money from the Tau and Eldar to keep afloat. Yeah, that would be hilarious.

- J

**TiamatRoar**

The last time that kinda happened with the Imperium frozen on deciding who got to be the next highlords (after the beheading killed ALL of the current ones), the current chapter master of the Ultraminarines gathered up 50+ other chapters, strolled on over to Terra, and slapped everyone around until they got "effective" (IE, adequate enough to at least work) leadership back in place again.

Honestly, if the Imperium could survive such devastating moments as the Age of Apostacy and The Beheading, I imagine it could survive any other beaurocratic nightmares that come about, too.

**clively**

Let's consider for a moment that I'm the head editor at BL. (not likely)

Let's further posit that the head editor has any actual control whatsoever over the roller coaster that is GW fluff. (even less likely).

Let's posit one more thing: that GW fluff beyond the date of Armageddon has actually been thought about in a serious manner. (much less likely than the above).

In this situation there is no way in hell the BL editor is going to say one word. His butt would be fired in an instant.

Now, knowing the above 3 items are extremely implausible. Let's consider what would likely have happened (assuming the conversation actually took place).

A fan asks me what the future holds. I politely say "I don't know". Same fan is persistent, while buying me a few drinks. Meanwhile, the fan isn't taking the truth ("I don't know") for an answer. The drinks are good.

Finally I succumb to the insistent plea of "what's going to happen!!" and give the most bs answer I possibly can... Fan eats it up and buys me another drink.

Win. Win. I say. After all we are well aware of the saying about gak and fans.

**Troike**

TiamatRoar wrote:
Honestly, if the Imperium could survive such devastating moments as the Age of Apostacy and The Beheading, I imagine it could survive any other beaurocratic nightmares that come about, too.

But to be fair, the situation back in those days was far less gak. If a disaster like that happened to the Imperium in 40K's present day, it probably could undo the Imperium.

**Iyandenseer**

I am not implying that these endings are serious. Just that one could actually be awesome. And one, scarily enough, has allusions hidden in the new rule book. Making the bell option not a serious ending to 40k, but something more akin to an inside joke floating around GW. I'm very doubtful that it's serious.... But if the Emperor died and the Astronomicon went out... I'd probably buy more minis personally.

My only criticism of Kryptman's strategy is, besides the closest worlds to be consumed, why aren't the planets evacuated before being wiped clean? Surely that population could be used as PDF for whichever planets you finally decide to make a stand on? Fall back, draw line, overpopulate planets to be defended, but just in case be ready to exterminate them as well, but only after copious gak tons of tyranid corpses are piled on the planet to be burned. I say fight the tyranids hard or not at all.

What I meant by the hive mind, was that all hive fleets as we know them are essentially different tentacles of a single Tyranid organism. Norn Queens are huge focal points of the hive mind, but the theory is that they are not the apex tyranid creature and that in fact the true center of the Tyranid consciousness resides deep within the fleet which is forever approaching Terra, but will never reach it due to time stopping in the story. It makes the story more epic.

The high lords of Terra should be overthrown and beheaded any way.. Death to the Bureaucracy.. Go Cypher!

If the central command structure falls apart, then grim dark gets darker... But that's candy for my mind! The less hope=the more fun gaming environment.

**raiden**

When the darkest night closes in. The brightest lights shine all the brighter.