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Vulcan wrote:

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
I must be the only player in Midgard that thinks that unit fillers are terrible.

To me, if you are running a block of 20 spearmen, it should be 20 spearmen, not 12 with two 4 model fillers. If I have taken the time to collect, build and paint a unit, I would be ticked if someone showed up to play me with fillers in theirs

I don't play competitively. it just looks wrong to have a house moving around with your soldiers!

And I would be just as ticked if you had a fit about the unit filler that I worked hard to make look good and provide some variety from endless ranks of the same model over and over again.

Different people have different tastes, and emphasize different parts of the hobby. If someone loves the modeling aspect and plays the game to show off his work as much as to... well, play the game, does that mean they're playing the game wrong? IF someone hates painting minis but loves playing the game, so he does a bare-minimum paint job of marginal appearance so he can get down to playing the game, is he playing the game wrong?

No, they are not. They may be falling afoul of your personal preferences, but the hobby involves more than just putting metal (and plastic) on the table. If it bothers you that much, just don't play them.

If you really WANT to limit the pool of people willing to play you, be my guest. I prefer to play as many different players as possible, to match my tactics against theirs as well as make some new friends along the way (the unstated THIRD part of the hobby - it is a SOCIAL hobby, after all!)

QFT

Nothing more boring than 100 monopose models painted substandard. I can't paint very well but can ring a lot of uniqueness/wow factor with sculpting/unit fillers nd I find not only more enjoyment, but has allowed me to accumulatea more models to make different armor of, which led to me bringin friends into hobby with extra models..

When I hear the attitude put forth about this sort of thing all I think... "Well it's not my fault you didn't do this also and save $$".... It's like a driver of a rolls Royce or Bugatti, "hey I dropped over half a million to drive on this road.." I don't want to share it with these pintos, beaters, and kias."

It doesn't take a half million dollar car to go a to b, nor does anyone have to love up to someone else's standards on how thy play with their toy soldiers. It's more than unfortunate that makumba has to deal with these people.

Like quite honestly, is everyone anti filler rich? I'm scraping by, despite living fiscally conservative and working full time, but due to family needs I never had more than a few bucks for hobby... $5 of plasti. $10 of putty so I can make $100+ of models? Seems like a lot better deal than 20 witch elves for $120..


Different strokes for different folks, if you act like it's laziness that is factor then youre a bit misguided i think. Someof us can't afford to buy the models hence we use fillers. Some people do it to boycott gw but that's a seperate group/reasoning.

We could just quit playing make y'all happy, or continue right the hell on with how de do things already as sure most of us have no problems gettin games.

Still sorry abou your mates and shop makumba.

Anyways sorry if I'm ranting. Edit: pardon fat finger no glasses wearing poor spelling and grammar. It should be understandable still.

I don't understand why there is so much hate for unit fillers as long as they aren't just slopped together. I mean seriously why should i have to go spend $ on another box of models if i only need 1 more guy? Unit fillers exist for just such an occasion and I know a bunch of guys who also use unit fillers.

Hell even for tournaments around here we have people that only use half (sometimes not even that) of the correct models for a unit. When I look at a unit of empire greatswords and see half of them being high elf swordmasters that's just not right. But a unit filler would work and fit in much better.

Honestly if people wanted to be a dick over the fact that I have a unit filler then i just wouldn't play them. It's not in the spirit of the game. People need to remember it's about having fun and not being TFG.

Hre are some I have found that do a good job with keeping the theme:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365225.page

I've seen white lions use the lion from the chariot, I've seen chosen and warriors of chaos use the beast from their newer chariot model. There are many ways you can use filler. I've seen skaven unit fillers for slaves use a couple of storm vermin pushing the slaves around with a pack master. I've seen clan rats swarming a fountain, dwarf miners coming up from a big hole in the ground with an excavator/drill looking thing (something similar for the skaven as well). With VC, you can get the grave yard terrain and make a small grave site behind the front line, you can do this with grave guard, etc. just as long as it looks good and when you start to take casualties you can replace them with actual models, it will be fine.

I love 'reasonable' filler. Like someone said, having a 4x4 base of orcs punching each other? Awesome! My VC friend has some great fillers for his zombies and ghouls with graveyards and things crawling up out of the ground. It's when I see giant monsters or buildings moving with a unit that I go o.O. They can look awesome, for sure, but they kind of muddy things up. Like the griffon with the spearmen idea... it would keep making me go "Oh god that thing is scary! ....oh right", which would get old fast. The giant buildings moving along also get a little weird with LoS and just general aesthetics for me. That being said, I would never refuse a game or even whine about any of this. I'd get over it and play. Just sharing what goes through my head when I see some of the crazy big stuff.

GW even has a model for that. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat500019a&prodId=prod1760004

If I saw someone model skeletons as a collection of gravestones and bodies climbing out of the groud i wouldnt have a problem with it.

I just think putting a house in a unit looks like crap and my opinion is just as valid as all of you that think its fine.

If you want to save money by kit bashing some models thats cool, I just dont think putting a large thing in a squad looks good.

a friend of mine sculpted a lizardmen saraus warrior for me as a birthday gift. unfortunately he is a little top heavy for a 25mm base! so im going to attach him to a 50/50mm base and have some sort of scenic display to fill in the gaps and that then fills up my missing 3 saraus warriors. saved me spending money to get 3 guys!

i love the idea of fillers and anything which encourages people to be creative in their collection is ok by me!
just as long as it doesnt become cofusing when adding up the wounds in combat
i.e:

"ok, youve killed 14 guys. i have to take 4 away, then remove my unit filler (50/100mm) which makes 8! now i take 2 guys away... oh wait i cant, my army isnt in order. hang on ill put 4 back. then take 8 from the front rank and then place the chariot filler in and then take the remaining 4 guys... how many is that now?"

o.O

"ummm, ive lost count!"

o.O

"right, all sorted but my chariot is facing sideways and we must pretend i have 2 more guys there!"

that type of scenario would annoy me lol

St1mp0 wrote:
a friend of mine sculpted a lizardmen saraus warrior for me as a birthday gift. unfortunately he is a little top heavy for a 25mm base! so im going to attach him to a 50/50mm base and have some sort of scenic display to fill in the gaps and that then fills up my missing 3 saraus warriors. saved me spending money to get 3 guys!

i love the idea of fillers and anything which encourages people to be creative in their collection is ok by me!
just as long as it doesnt become cofusing when adding up the wounds in combat
i.e:

"ok, youve killed 14 guys. i have to take 4 away, then remove my unit filler (50/100mm) which makes 8! now i take 2 guys away... oh wait i cant, my army isnt in order. hang on ill put 4 back. then take 8 from the front rank and then place the chariot filler in and then take the remaining 4 guys... how many is that now?"

o.O

"ummm, ive lost count!"

o.O

"right, all sorted but my chariot is facing sideways and we must pretend i have 2 more guys there!"

that type of scenario would annoy me lol

Not sure what types of people you play but the unit filler shouldn't get in the way of the front rank and the back rows of the unit should be enough to replace all unit fillers. Unit filler should not make up more than half of the unit because then you can remove casualties. It's why most people use it for small units like 4 models. If you kill 4 just remove the filler. If you kill 3, just remove 3 models until you lose 1 more. It's not hard unless you're used to playing liars and cheats.

i know
i was merely giving an example of what i wouldn't allow when it came to the size of fillers. and how they should be used/designed to avoid confusion/unit formation

Hey guys,
How about a 40mm scale Roman warrior in my swordmen ranks as an Aspect of Zeus or Ares?

Wow, I think the only thing worse than people hating on unit fillers is the people who are hating on people who are hating on unit fillers. "It's a social game, so don't be rude, you jackass" doesn't come across very becoming, much less a strong argument for anything.

skyfi wrote:Nothing more boring than 100 monopose models painted substandard.

But that's a problem with the game or with the painter, not with a lack of unit fillers. Plus, if the person can't make nice looking minis then it's HIGHLY dubious that they're going to be making nice unit fillers. At least with the models, the stuff on the table is representing what the stuff on the table is supposed to be. A bunch of crudely painted hardware store fixtures sloppily glued together and slathered in bitz is way worse than monopose, poorly-painted real models.

Reasons of "But I'm an artist, look at my snowflake", and "But I'm cheap, look how I can avoid buying models" doesn't mean you're immune to getting called out for doing things in poor taste. There's nothing wrong with using unit fillers, but there's nothing sacrosanct about them either.

 Ailaros wrote:
Wow, I think the only thing worse than people hating on unit fillers is the people who are hating on people who are hating on unit fillers. "It's a social game, so don't be rude, you jackass" doesn't come across very becoming, much less a strong argument for anything.

skyfi wrote:Nothing more boring than 100 monopose models painted substandard.

But that's a problem with the game or with the painter, not with a lack of unit fillers. Plus, if the person can't make nice looking minis then it's HIGHLY dubious that they're going to be making nice unit fillers. At least with the models, the stuff on the table is representing what the stuff on the table is supposed to be. A bunch of crudely painted hardware store fixtures sloppily glued together and slathered in bitz is way worse than monopose, poorly-painted real models.

Reasons of "But I'm an artist, look at my snowflake", and "But I'm cheap, look how I can avoid buying models" doesn't mean you're immune to getting called out for doing things in poor taste. There's nothing wrong with using unit fillers, but there's nothing sacrosanct about them either.

I'm not sure what you mean by us hating those who hate unit fillers. I have heard reasoning for why, some iseasure in support of the fellows whose friends require filler be made o playable gw models only, etc.

Frankly, it's a social contract to play game. If you have a problem with my fillers, there are other people to play. I'm not shy o stating that I don't think fillers are a bad thing. I haven't tried to come across rude, but the notion that people are only doing it to be lazy, or that it's unfai because try should have to pay as much as you..

That's what seems to bother people, when its insinuated tey are a lesser being for using filler, and they are right to be upset I feel. I don't insinuate that people who don't use filler are flashing their money around.

People are not created equal, and people aren't all equally good painters.. So you can't just expect everyone to paint to high standards. They may want to employ other methods to make their army stand out like fillers.

Do you know any electricians? Are they also equally competent carpenters?
Just because you can't paint well, does NOT mean you can't make good filler. It's like people can have different strengths and weaknesses.


The concept I need to buy 7 35$ boxes of goblins to fill out my core, that's a problem. People have to address it one way or another


I can understand not being fond of certain poorly made filler, but quit generalizing. How many bad fillers in thread do you see vs how many

pardon me if I've been blunt, there's
Just no reason for people to call people cheap/insinuate negative things. I don't think "oh fillers for the sake of fillers Is the best thing ever" but I would try and convince anyone to utilize them to make the financial portion o the game lighter.

100 battle for skull pass goblins, is boring as all get out man. There's very little you can do aside from paint them differently, base them up differently etc, but them you break uniformity you may want to keep. Filler is a great wait to break up monotony, remove casualties quicker etc

Maybe it's a problem with the game, but as I said,'you have to deal with it one way o another.

I don't feel like people usin filler should be brow beaten for doing so. If you don't like filler, that's fine and dandy. If you then say I don't like fillers because you guys are cheapskates, well... It's natural for people to get offended when you do that,


You keep making assumption that all unit filler is destined to look like gak... Because why? Why would it matter if I didn't take my time to do tabletop level jobs on my 100 goblins? Does that mean I'm going to rush on my arachnarok? Makes no sense. Fillers can be used as centerpieces / dioramas and it doesn't make sense that just because I rushed to paint -100 3 point models, that I will also rush the center piece... That distracts you from their "3 foot" paint jobs?

Quit being rude ya jackass wasnt quite expressed until after makumba explained what his friends behaved like, but requiring filler be 100% playable models ie. no pony cart or stuff like that...

Again your issue is with a particular execution, as opposed to idea of filler it seems.

In any case, I hope when re reading thru thread you'll see that people weren't quite up in arms until we felt makumba was being held to an arbitrary and definately non-universal standards regarding composition of his unit fillers...



I have nothing but compassion for people who play hordes, or want to save money, or want to create a centerpiece.
Without fillers I would not be able to have an army or 2. Simply can't logically spend hard earned money on extra figs I DON'T need, when I can easily get by with what I already have.

Never once had someone complain about my fillers , and again I apologize if I have come off rude, not my intent.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
I must be the only player in Midgard that thinks that unit fillers are terrible.

To me, if you are running a block of 20 spearmen, it should be 20 spearmen, not 12 with two 4 model fillers. If I have taken the time to collect, build and paint a unit, I would be ticked if someone showed up to play me with fillers in theirs

I don't play competitively. it just looks wrong to have a house moving around with your soldiers!

And this is what set me off, more than anything. I respect everyone's right to hold an opinion, but doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I think this expressed a believed superiority over ones use of fillers. It's a generalization.. Yeah the guy might not have put as much time and effort in if its done in a piss poor way... But what if its not? What if it is executed beautifully!? Added depth and character to army etc!? Would you not then concede he had put in as much time as you? What takes more time 1 aracknaraok spider or 100 goblins? Same point values, but easily 100 goblins if done to equal standards will take longer.

I agree some fillers look out of place such as houses etc. even my mushroom fillers or ones with goblins hangin from trees really only could be perceived as the location on board where tey are just so happening to have a tree or mushroom there, not nearly as well blended into a unit as say a quarrel breaking out, or a miscast etc.


Generalizations never helped me that I can recall, short of "OH GAK FLYING THINGS WITH STINGERS" making me feel like the Death Star.

edit: pardon the grammatical/spelling errors/sentences that just stop. I was on my phone, it was very late, and I was inebriated.

To each his own. I am all for converting units, like the aforementioned skeletons, to individually convert/model those shows your love for the army and the hobby.

I just don't feel it's appropriate to put a rock with a goblin on it and call that unit filler. That's terrain at that point.

I see no reason you couldn't even mount an appropriate number of models on a monster base to make set up faster, or removing casualties. When I looked at the unit I would see 20 goblins even if it's 12 individual and 2 sets of 4.

WYSIWIG if it's 20 dudes it should look like 20 dudes. Not 12 dudes with an outhouse.

Please don't hate me because I want to play with armies that look right.

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
To each his own. I am all for converting units, like the aforementioned skeletons, to individually convert/model those shows your love for the army and the hobby.

I just don't feel it's appropriate to put a rock with a goblin on it and call that unit filler. That's terrain at that point.

I see no reason you couldn't even mount an appropriate number of models on a monster base to make set up faster, or removing casualties. When I looked at the unit I would see 20 goblins even if it's 12 individual and 2 sets of 4.

WYSIWIG if it's 20 dudes it should look like 20 dudes. Not 12 dudes with an outhouse.

Please don't hate me because I want to play with armies that look right.

nothing but <3's brotha. just 2 things really

1. just remember $$$$ spend =/= love for your army and the hobby. it's just the amount of money you spent on something.
2. looking right is your opinion and we all are entitled to them! I just don't feel like one opinion is "right" or "better" but more of a matter of personal preference. I don't like to insinuate people are lazy, or cheap, personally. I wouldn't like to be called lazy, and would take offense. I however, would gleefully admit, that I exist on a level that is beyond cheap... (joking, i'm not that cheap. but I am very very cheap)

a lot of people aren't in positions to buy all the models for a particular army they want to play, but may have enough leftovers/remnants to fill out the force with fillers of gravestones, mushrooms, etc. Heck I am trying to build 3 armies out of scraps myself right now, so that when buddies come over, we have more variety of armies to use, and they don't have to load up their stuff. It's nice for trying to get new people into the hobby as well, as you have more armies variable to try and grab their interest with demo games... The cost of entry into hobby is a very large turn off for a lot of people, and if you show them well hey I got these $50 worth of dudes second hand, and spent $50 more to make fillers, and now have a 2500 point army... vs well I spent $500+ on that army over there... and to them, they may simply be shocked at cost of getting into game at $500 entry, while $100 is much more feasible. $100 with get you a 2 player starter set, or a battalion box, but it won't get you a tournament sized army retail from my experience, which is why I have always been on the side of people being able to use fillers.

I have a buddy who has 12,000 points of empire.. who hadn't ever built a unit filler for them... He's now making them half dozen at a time to expand his 12,000 points to closer to 20k so we can play some ridiculously large games.. At a certain point, fillers become a no brainer to me. Save $$$ to buy family member a vehicle, or expand my toy soldier collection to use once every blue moon? I hope that makes sense. I haven't tried to come across as callous or rude.


I just feel there are much better uses of our dollars than to spend needlessly so I feel I understand completely when a guy shows up with a filler taking up 1/3 - 1/2 his unit. Stuff is expensive. He may just want to really try out a horde of 50 wyches and not have the $ to spend on them.

I understand that not all filler is created equally, and is perfectly fine for the subject of criticism. I think the execution of a particular filler should be the focus of the criticism, instead of the artist's laziness/cheapness.

There are plenty of examples of filler that look great on a display/tourney tray that do not translate well to a game.

I too find it odd when a mausoleum is coming at me with a unit of ghouls, or whatnot. Not enough to really complain, but enough to make me notice.

Most filler that looks good on the table also looks good on display though. I like the previously mentioned white lion in a large group of White Lions and may see if we end up using it. ^^

I can understand not being fond of certain poorly made filler, but quit generalizing. How many bad fillers in thread do you see vs how many

But you can't put up a rule that says only good fillers are ok and bad are not. Fillers here are not accepted , not because people don't have the imagination or can't do it . There are people from Scibor and other studios playing around here. their models are on a level ,that I can't even imagine how much time and skill it takes to do them . They aren't accepted here , because if someone put a rule 1/4 unit made out of filler is ok , then all armies played by everyone would have 1/4 units made out of bases with just flock on them . If they didn't and tried to go the what looks good way , different shops would bann each other armies , same with different cities for larger tournaments. No fillers and no proxy is just a way to avoid the coke cans and "I put a skull on a base and it is my general" type of armies.

Makumba wrote:

I can understand not being fond of certain poorly made filler, but quit generalizing. How many bad fillers in thread do you see vs how many

But you can't put up a rule that says only good fillers are ok and bad are not. Fillers here are not accepted , not because people don't have the imagination or can't do it . There are people from Scibor and other studios playing around here. their models are on a level ,that I can't even imagine how much time and skill it takes to do them . They aren't accepted here , because if someone put a rule 1/4 unit made out of filler is ok , then all armies played by everyone would have 1/4 units made out of bases with just flock on them . If they didn't and tried to go the what looks good way , different shops would bann each other armies , same with different cities for larger tournaments. No fillers and no proxy is just a way to avoid the coke cans and "I put a skull on a base and it is my general" type of armies.

I've never encountered coke cans aside from counting as drop pods by players experimenting with a list, which I was fine with.. I understand not wanting people to bring that stuff to a large tournament, and rules existing to that extent. I don't understand how casual play on the weekends at the friendly game store should be subject to such strict rules. I hear stories frequently of not being allowed to play with miniatures not bought at that store etc. I guess I should count my lucky stars my FLGS have all been cool as a cucumber.

I don't think there should be a ruler against fillers, good or bad. That's like making crappy paintjobs against the rules. If you are going to accept some, kinda have to accept them all. If 1/4 of a unit is the "rule", what would be so disastrous if someone just flocked bases? In big tournaments do you guys not use painting scores w/ prizes etc? that to me would be a reason to not cheap out on my unit filler.

In any event, it's a game, and everyone is entitled to play it how they like. I just don't agree with the idea people are just being lazy and cheap by using filler... You never know how many opponents you play who might not otherwise be in the hobby, if it weren't for penny stretching techniques. I try to include as many people as want to be involved in things as I can, more the merrier you know. Even if a few of them on their ways up have some crappy looking unit fillers.

just my 2c


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:
There are plenty of examples of filler that look great on a display/tourney tray that do not translate well to a game.

I too find it odd when a mausoleum is coming at me with a unit of ghouls, or whatnot. Not enough to really complain, but enough to make me notice.

Most filler that looks good on the table also looks good on display though. I like the previously mentioned white lion in a large group of White Lions and may see if we end up using it. ^^

yeah I run into a problem with my giant squig coming from ground sometimes, quickly counting up the numbers of models in base to base because the 5 wide frontage isn't marked. should plant mushrooms 20mm on that side to help myself.. lol! suppose I could have cracks in rocks etc at the appropriate spots to to help mark where the divide is. Usually doesn't happen as its in middle of a bus and discarded, but if I reform to a horde I have to use its frontage, which is supremely annoying. a 25 goblin filler in a unit of 50 is a pain in the ass to work with. It was designed to go into a 10x10 100 strong horde.

didn't think of the idea until reading your comment, woohoo!

This thread inspired me to repurpose my great eagle bases to also be unit fillers. My bases were already magnetized, so I painted up some statue basing stuff and magnetized them to go on the bases. So now I have unit fillers for games I don't run great eagles.

I don't understand how casual play on the weekends at the friendly game store should be subject to such strict rules

but there are no special rules just for casuals . you can either play the normal stuff , which is what tournaments accept +/- FW stuff or you have to write pages long house rules , which no one will ever accept. Someone who already has a 2500pts army , is not suddenly going to be ok with other dudes I building armies for 700zl , when they paid 2000zl for it . The shops won't accept it either . every filler is fewer models sold and it gives , new players a bad example , bad as far as the shops view on being there to sell stuff goes. Tournaments will have a problem with them too , because while it is easy to spot and class a filler as awesome , it is much harder to do the opposite . Is two unconverted orks on a troll based awesome enough , how about a few grave stones instead of spirit hosts , snakes etc. If you say yes to one dude the other will force the judges to say yes to theirs too and if not , his whole community won't come to the next tournament . I have seen big 60man plus tournaments die , because two game groups fall out about a judge ruling .

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
I must be the only player in Midgard that thinks that unit fillers are terrible.

To me, if you are running a block of 20 spearmen, it should be 20 spearmen, not 12 with two 4 model fillers. If I have taken the time to collect, build and paint a unit, I would be ticked if someone showed up to play me with fillers in theirs

I don't play competitively. it just looks wrong to have a house moving around with your soldiers!

What if someone showed up with an army painted and built by someone else? Would that be a problem.

There are many reasons someone may want filler in their units both financial and creative. As long as it doesn't prevent you from knowing which models they are I dont really see the issue. You may not like models that look like that but they are not your models, you may not like their paint scheme either.

Makumba wrote:
Someone who already has a 2500pts army , is not suddenly going to be ok with other dudes I building armies for 700zl , when they paid 2000zl for it.

Umm, why the hell not? What I do with my own money/time/effort is of no concern to other hobbyists, and vice versa. If I've spent full price on an all-GW plastic army painted vanilla colours and model-for-model WYSIWYG, and another player rocks up for a friendly with a creative, heavily customised, proxy/unit filler army that they've pulled off for half the price... I don't go all sour grapes on them, start b****** about it saying "hey, it's cost you less money than me for the same amount of points! Not cool, man, get outta here!" No, I say "woah! Cool army, dude! How'd you make that? What's that kitbash involve? What, Fantasy parts mixed with 40K parts? Cool! Wow, are those OOP metals from a couple of editions ago? Awesome, I love those sculpts. I'm really looking forward to playing you."

But hey, that's just me. Maybe I've got some crazy notion about this hobby being a social exercise involving fun and creativity, and not about how much money my opponent has or hasn't spent.

What I do with my own money/time/effort is of no concern to other hobbyists, and vice versa.

Because people are like that. If his identical army cost two or three times as much he won't let you play the same for cheaper. If he would let you play with it , it would mean many things and non of them nice. First of all if he paid more he is stupid . Second of all , if he didn't veto your army it means he isn't important enough in the community , which is worse then being stupid . Then there is the natural feeling that you don't want other to have it better.

"hey, it's cost you less money than me for the same amount of points! Not cool, man, get outta here!" No, I say "woah! Cool army, dude! How'd you make that? What's that kitbash involve? What, Fantasy parts mixed with 40K parts? Cool! Wow, are those OOP metals from a couple of editions ago? Awesome, I love those sculpts. I'm really looking forward to playing you."

Unless someone is a painter or a sculptor himself or work for a studio making commision armies , why would anyone care how the models look like. They have to be legal and make a good army . I can imagine seeing someone from Scibor Studios make his own models , but what do I care . I won't be able to sculpt like him , am not going to pay the western europe rates for models to buy them from him and if they are realy good converted and painted he won't even let me touch them .

Makumba wrote:

I don't understand how casual play on the weekends at the friendly game store should be subject to such strict rules

but there are no special rules just for casuals . you can either play the normal stuff , which is what tournaments accept +/- FW stuff or you have to write pages long house rules , which no one will ever accept. Someone who already has a 2500pts army , is not suddenly going to be ok with other dudes I building armies for 700zl , when they paid 2000zl for it . The shops won't accept it either . every filler is fewer models sold and it gives , new players a bad example , bad as far as the shops view on being there to sell stuff goes. Tournaments will have a problem with them too , because while it is easy to spot and class a filler as awesome , it is much harder to do the opposite . Is two unconverted orks on a troll based awesome enough , how about a few grave stones instead of spirit hosts , snakes etc. If you say yes to one dude the other will force the judges to say yes to theirs too and if not , his whole community won't come to the next tournament . I have seen big 60man plus tournaments die , because two game groups fall out about a judge ruling .

1) Firstly, the fact that another hobbyist has a similar army to you and had constructed it for a lower amount of money is most definitely not a reason to go off on one at them. I would look down very unfavourably on anyone who had the nerve to do so. It's your own fault for not being creative enough, or for not putting the effort in to think and convert. If I were someone who would do this, I'd be ashamed. If you went to the first insurance company you could think of and get your car insured for a certain amount and your mate does lots of research and gets his for cheaper (assuming you have identical/similar cars), there's no way you'd have a rant about it at him.

2) It probably depends on your shop owner, but I've taken in unit fillers to my local GW plenty of times and had no complaints, only compliments. I'm not using non-GW, I'm still giving money to his company (unless I buy from eBay - though that's a different matter) to make the fillers. New players aren't likely to attempt unit fillers.

3) As with everything in a tournament, it depends on the rulings made by your TO. If your TO says no fillers, then there's no fillers. But I've never heard of a tournament not allowing them and, usually, in my experience, the armies that take "Best Army" are ones with awesome fillers in.

Makumba wrote:

I don't understand how casual play on the weekends at the friendly game store should be subject to such strict rules

but there are no special rules just for casuals . you can either play the normal stuff , which is what tournaments accept +/- FW stuff or you have to write pages long house rules , which no one will ever accept. Someone who already has a 2500pts army , is not suddenly going to be ok with other dudes I building armies for 700zl , when they paid 2000zl for it . The shops won't accept it either . every filler is fewer models sold and it gives , new players a bad example , bad as far as the shops view on being there to sell stuff goes. Tournaments will have a problem with them too , because while it is easy to spot and class a filler as awesome , it is much harder to do the opposite . Is two unconverted orks on a troll based awesome enough , how about a few grave stones instead of spirit hosts , snakes etc. If you say yes to one dude the other will force the judges to say yes to theirs too and if not , his whole community won't come to the next tournament . I have seen big 60man plus tournaments die , because two game groups fall out about a judge ruling .

Makumba wrote:
Because people are like that. If his identical army cost two or three times as much he won't let you play the same for cheaper. If he would let you play with it , it would mean many things and non of them nice. First of all if he paid more he is stupid . Second of all , if he didn't veto your army it means he isn't important enough in the community , which is worse then being stupid . Then there is the natural feeling that you don't want other to have it better.

What the hell are you even talking about?

"he won't let you play the same for cheaper" ...what? Let me tell you something, "he" can't do jack about what I collect or how much I spend doing it. If "he" thinks "he" has that sort of power over me when it comes to a hobby meant for fun, then "he" is living on a different planet.

Seriously? We are talking about the same thing here, right? This is dakkadakka? I haven't wandered into some weird forum about tax evasion or some such gak...?

Im not opposed to unit fillers because they cost less. I am opposed because 90% of the ones i see are terrain, not a fighting unit.

The white lions from the chariot in with a unit of white lions is cool. Grave stones with skeletons coming out of the ground is cool

Houses, rocks, trees, statues, caves, walls...these are all terrain. They make cool objectives and look good on the display board but are not good unit filler imo.

Cost doesnt come in to it for me. I can see how it does for other people. I just think there should be some effort in it

Once again, I'd note that disliking someone's unit filler does not have to be the sign of a classist philistine that feels the need to be insulting because they don't understand art.

If someone's saying your unit fillers are tacky or poorly executed, or don't make much sense in their content, maybe that's because the person did a bad job and made bad unit fillers.

Or can't people critique art anymore because they might hurt someone's feelings?

 Ailaros wrote:
Once again, I'd note that disliking someone's unit filler does not have to be the sign of a classist philistine that feels the need to be insulting because they don't understand art.

If someone's saying your unit fillers are tacky or poorly executed, or don't make much sense in their content, maybe that's because the person did a bad job and made bad unit fillers.

Or can't people critique art anymore because they might hurt someone's feelings?

I think people aren't reacting poorly to those who are saying that they dislike seeing ghouls drag around buildings. I think they are reacting badly to people like Mak who say things like this

Makumba wrote:
Because people are like that. If his identical army cost two or three times as much he won't let you play the same for cheaper. If he would let you play with it , it would mean many things and non of them nice. First of all if he paid more he is stupid . Second of all , if he didn't veto your army it means he isn't important enough in the community , which is worse then being stupid . Then there is the natural feeling that you don't want other to have it better.

That is what is getting the really forceful backlask, not the users who share the view of th0rh4mm3r and co.

Makumba wrote:

What I do with my own money/time/effort is of no concern to other hobbyists, and vice versa.

Because people are like that. If his identical army cost two or three times as much he won't let you play the same for cheaper. If he would let you play with it , it would mean many things and non of them nice. First of all if he paid more he is stupid . Second of all , if he didn't veto your army it means he isn't important enough in the community , which is worse then being stupid . Then there is the natural feeling that you don't want other to have it better.

"hey, it's cost you less money than me for the same amount of points! Not cool, man, get outta here!" No, I say "woah! Cool army, dude! How'd you make that? What's that kitbash involve? What, Fantasy parts mixed with 40K parts? Cool! Wow, are those OOP metals from a couple of editions ago? Awesome, I love those sculpts. I'm really looking forward to playing you."

Unless someone is a painter or a sculptor himself or work for a studio making commision armies , why would anyone care how the models look like. They have to be legal and make a good army . I can imagine seeing someone from Scibor Studios make his own models , but what do I care . I won't be able to sculpt like him , am not going to pay the western europe rates for models to buy them from him and if they are realy good converted and painted he won't even let me touch them .

This is so ridiculous.

So for point number 1 you should I presume also be against anyone who bought the models second hand, or for less than full GW price?

For point number 2 it wouldn't make a difference to his standing in the community, maybe he didn't veto the army because he is not a petty idiot who for some reason has there own ego heavily affected by who paid the most for their toy soldiers.

So for point number 1 you should I presume also be against anyone who bought the models second hand, or for less than full GW price?

We had people being disallowed to buy table time , because their warmachine/w40k/WFB armies weren't bought at the store .

it wouldn't make a difference to his standing in the community, maybe he didn't veto the army because he is not a petty idiot who for some reason has there own ego heavily affected by who paid the most for their toy soldiers.

I don't know how 50 years of communism treated you , but here if someone gets something cheaper then you and it is the same thing , then you end up a fool . And I have yet see someone buy a high cost army , because he was effected by someone elses ego and not their own.