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There is some communication with parts of whatever the Wurm is with the Circle, though. As far as it can tell, entities like the Lord of the Feast and the Tree of Fate are extensions or avatars of the Wurm in Caen. The Tree has been especially important lately since it is sort of indicating a want of more bloodshed about, but it's not clear how much that's actually the Wurm or the evil carnivorous tree at work.

And stuff.

 Blaque wrote:
There is some communication with parts of whatever the Wurm is with the Circle, though. As far as it can tell, entities like the Lord of the Feast and the Tree of Fate are extensions or avatars of the Wurm in Caen. The Tree has been especially important lately since it is sort of indicating a want of more bloodshed about, but it's not clear how much that's actually the Wurm or the evil carnivorous tree at work.

And stuff.

That the Druids are capable of harnessing the power of Orboros is undeniable, but that's different from the Wurm having an avatar down here. Menoth and the Twins periodically elevates humans to Archons and Ascendants, and those Archons and Ascendants periodically travels from the divine Cities to Caen to interact with the members of their churches. There is a (very limited) first hand account of the existence and intents of the human gods. There is no such thing in regards to the Wurm. All we know is that he constantly hunts the souls in Urcaen and turns them into his beasts, and with them constantly attacks the human cities. There's no logical link between the rise of civilization on Caen and the possibility of the Wurm ever crossing over, but there is the possibility that it would happen if Menoth and/or the Twins were defeated, and the Wurm got to snack on all the souls of humanity. A stronger civilization on Caen could only lead to stronger divine cities in Urcaen.

Which is why, IMO, the druids are just fething mental.

Good point on comparing the blackclads with the Retribution -- it also explains why the druids are so insistent on their own power and importance ... even if it's not backed up by much of what anyone else would consider evidence.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

That the Druids are capable of harnessing the power of Orboros is undeniable, but that's different from the Wurm having an avatar down here. Menoth and the Twins periodically elevates humans to Archons and Ascendants, and those Archons and Ascendants periodically travels from the divine Cities to Caen to interact with the members of their churches. There is a (very limited) first hand account of the existence and intents of the human gods. There is no such thing in regards to the Wurm. All we know is that he constantly hunts the souls in Urcaen and turns them into his beasts, and with them constantly attacks the human cities. There's no logical link between the rise of civilization on Caen and the possibility of the Wurm ever crossing over, but there is the possibility that it would happen if Menoth and/or the Twins were defeated, and the Wurm got to snack on all the souls of humanity. A stronger civilization on Caen could only lead to stronger divine cities in Urcaen.
Which is why, IMO, the druids are just fething mental.

Actually, there is. A stronger city in urcaen would be the trigger to send the devour’s attentions back to caen. Stronger cities on caen means orboros is weakening – again, a trigger to return its attention to Caen. Remember the goals of the circle – it’s to keep the devourer strong enough to keep fighting, but not strong enough to win, and too strong to lose.
Also remember, the wurm doesn’t necessarily need to physically cross over like the other gods– its already on caen – in every storm, in every breath of wind, and every crash of a wave. Its “will” is in urcaen, its “essence” is in caen. Menoth and Morrow cannot cross over
Also, I would point out that the wurm has quite a variety of direct conduits, and “avatars” that manifest its will on caen.
The first are the gallows groves which are mobile sacrificial altars that somehow seek out the battles of immoren, and drink deep of the blood soaked soil. They are also used by devourer worshipers to offer tribute, and sacrifice directly to the devourer.
The second is the lord of the feast which is an avatar of the devourer whose rights of summoning are known only by a handful of druids.
The third, and arguably most important is wurmwood, which is a direct conduit to the will of orboros- it (and its human sockpuppet) is a foothold of the devourer in caen, and has been for thousands of years. The devourer communicates to its followers through wurmwood(and its human sockpuppet) and makes pronouncements and judgements.
It must further be noted that wurmwood, in the guise of mouthpiece of the devourer has recently made various pronouncements and edicts with regard to the circle. The first is the elevation of Krueger to the rank of oracle of the apocalypse. Bad things are happening, and its defining its pieces in the coming game. More recently (and interestingly, from my point of view) is the edict to Kromac, king of the tharn that he must seek madrak’s axe (rathrok) take it, and become the avatar of the apocalypse. For those who like their history, Rathrok was the axe wielded by the last of the Molgur Priest Kings (Horfar Grimmr) in their wars on the menites back during the warlord era. It’s the Excalibur of the apocalypse, essentially (and Horfar himself has returned in the guise of Bane Lord Tartarus))
A third champion has also been raised – not by wurmwood, but by orboros itself – Baldur. After he “died”, his consciousness merged with that of Orboros itself and his mind got to know everything it knew. When he returned in domination, he had changed. He had learned that the apocalypse was nigh, and they had only a limited time to get things back on track.

I think you might be taking blackclad theology on its face value.

 Manchu wrote:
I think you might be taking blackclad theology on its face value.

and with respect, you're dismissing things out of hand as invalid simply for the sake of it

remember, theology in this world is a lot more "fact" than "fable". the gods are real.

In any case, Im dealing far less with theology, and far more with the actual characters, and their motives and fluff. In this case, its the devourers "points of contact" on Caen. Which exist. And its goals and desires of its followers. Again, these exist.

Wurmwood is described as being a special link to the devourer, and its importance is stated repeatedly, whether you read its own entry, the fiction in the various books or that in the Gavyn Kyle files. its pronouncements regarding krueger and kromac are fact. similarly, what happened to Baldur is described in the fiction.

Regarding the gallows groves and the lord of the feast, again, it comes from both the description in the current lore and in the monsternomicon for the lord of the feast.

But you know, feel free to disagree, and ignore other input.

The gods are real but their exact nature is debatable. This seems especially true of the Wurm. The blackclads, for example, don't think the Wurm is just something in itself (as the Wurm Worshipers seem to) but rather an aspect of something that also incorporates Dhunia called Orboros.

 Manchu wrote:
As it turns out, the Circle believes the Wurm and Dhunia are both "manifestations of a single primal and all-pervasive entity they call Orboros." (IK Core Rules, p. 11) Dhunia is the "tangible physicality" and the Wurm is the "conscious will and most violent impulses" of Orboros.

Deadnight wrote:
Actually, there is. A stronger city in urcaen would be the trigger to send the devour’s attentions back to caen. Stronger cities on caen means orboros is weakening – again, a trigger to return its attention to Caen. Remember the goals of the circle – it’s to keep the devourer strong enough to keep fighting, but not strong enough to win, and too strong to lose.

It's attention, possibly. If it's even capable of something like attention toward the balance of nature. Little about the Wurm seems to indicate that it's capable of more than pure predation, and the most uncharacteristic thing it's even done is a rape, which is just an innovation on predation. More than likely, stronger divine cities would simply mean that Menoth and/or the Twins would be able to 'kill' the Wurm.

Also remember, the wurm doesn’t necessarily need to physically cross over like the other gods– its already on caen – in every storm, in every breath of wind, and every crash of a wave.

No, it's in Urcaen. Maybe the druids actually believe that Caen and Orboros are exchangeable terms, but they've never claimed that about the Wurm.

Menoth and Morrow cannot cross over

Menoth has done so at the very least twice.

Also, I would point out that the wurm has quite a variety of direct conduits, and “avatars” that manifest its will on caen.
The first are the gallows groves which are mobile sacrificial altars that somehow seek out the battles of immoren, and drink deep of the blood soaked soil. They are also used by devourer worshipers to offer tribute, and sacrifice directly to the devourer.
The second is the lord of the feast which is an avatar of the devourer whose rights of summoning are known only by a handful of druids.
The third, and arguably most important is wurmwood, which is a direct conduit to the will of orboros- it (and its human sockpuppet) is a foothold of the devourer in caen, and has been for thousands of years. The devourer communicates to its followers through wurmwood(and its human sockpuppet) and makes pronouncements and judgements.

Imbued, enchanted or divine objects are nothing comparable to an avatar. The metaphysics of Caen doesn't even require an entity to be divine to lend divine-like powers, simply to be extremely powerful, such as the divine magics displayed by the priesthood of Toruk. An avatar is a personnification of a god. It might sound like a silly argument, but I'm sure you'll agree that a tree, however bloodthirsty it may be, isn't really the avatar of the god of predation. The Gallows Groves are nothing else but enchanted and usefull benches. The Lord of the Feast might be the closest thing to one, but then, it's a good argument for the current weakness of the Wurm. I mean, the Menites weld together a bunch of well-decorated metal sheets, pray a bit, and voilà! Here's born a restless warmachine capable of wrecking entire regiments, steered by the will of their god. In comparison, the druids manage to summon an emaciated barbarian with a chronic habit for heart snacking.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

It's attention, possibly. If it's even capable of something like attention toward the balance of nature. Little about the Wurm seems to indicate that it's capable of more than pure predation, and the most uncharacteristic thing it's even done is a rape, which is just an innovation on predation. More than likely, stronger divine cities would simply mean that Menoth and/or the Twins would be able to 'kill' the Wurm.

How so? I’m curious about this. Just as the “font” of power for the gods is the souls of their respective worshippers, the “font” of power for the devourer is the natural world-storms, trees, rivers and all that nature stuff. Im not sure if gods can be “killed”- even the apocalypse at the bridge of worlds left the elven gods able to walk out whilst it destroyed lyoss.
Remember as well, not all divine beings work on the same principles. Dhunia and the Devourer are seemingly distinct from morrow, and operate differently than thamar, menoth etc. the same can be said for Cyriss. The Dhunia/Devourer/Orboros identity seems to be intrinsically linked to the physical world, to the extent that souls of dhunians sink into the earth, and are reincarnated, whilst those of the "otherworldly" gods like morrow and menoth move on to urcaen. its the same with Cyriss, as seemingly, cyriss has a phsical presence (as one of the moons) on Caen. other beings such as the elven gods who come from the Veldt, as seemingly from urcaen, whilst the infernal orders are beyond both caen, and urcaen. the dwarven gods come from "the land beneath", in their theology - whether that is in urcaen, or elsewhere - i'm not entirely certain. All of them seem to have slightly unique principles, rather than a unifying underlying cosmology.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

No, it's in Urcaen. Maybe the druids actually believe that Caen and Orboros are exchangeable terms, but they've never claimed that about the Wurm.

They do claim its essence and its will are separate.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Menoth has done so at the very least twice.

I apologise – I should have clarified. The gods cannot cross over any more. Menoth crossed over thousands of years ago, and created mankind and presumably the giants (deliberately, or accidentally, its arguabl– the humans emerged from his shadow, and the giants grew from spilled drops of blood as he was chasing the wurm). Similarly, the dwarven gods crossed over and created their dudes, before moving back.
However, the gods simply cannot cross over any more. Seacat had expanded on this in his own writings – that in order to cross over, a soul needs a “window” of a certain size, and the “windows” have shrunk. Back in the day, the gods could cross over, but now, whilst the “windows” are big enough for the reclaimer to cross over and return as the testament, its too small for the likes of menoth etc. Its an interesting point regarding the wurm – the druids certainly believe it can return, and since its essence pervades caen, they have a few points in their favour on this.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Imbued, enchanted or divine objects are nothing comparable to an avatar. The metaphysics of Caen doesn't even require an entity to be divine to lend divine-like powers, simply to be extremely powerful, such as the divine magics displayed by the priesthood of Toruk. An avatar is a personnification of a god. It might sound like a silly argument, but I'm sure you'll agree that a tree, however bloodthirsty it may be, isn't really the avatar of the god of predation. The Gallows Groves are nothing else but enchanted and usefull benches. The Lord of the Feast might be the closest thing to one, but then, it's a good argument for the current weakness of the Wurm. I mean, the Menites weld together a bunch of well-decorated metal sheets, pray a bit, and voilà! Here's born a restless warmachine capable of wrecking entire regiments, steered by the will of their god. In comparison, the druids manage to summon an emaciated barbarian with a chronic habit for heart snacking.

To be fair, its not just a “tree”. It’s a carnivorous, soul eating tree, with a human sockpuppet. I like how PP twist things around, and wurmwood is no exception to this. This tree I think is a perfect manifestation of the will of the devourer. a tree that is on top of the food chain. As a design concept, I think it’s fantastic, and extremely characterful. So no, i will completely, and utterly disagree with your sentiments that its a silly idea, and that it can't really be an avatar of the god of predation-if anything, i think its a perfect, unique, slightly humerous and extremely twisted take on the divine avatar concept.
It has a well defined role in the circle heirarchy. Politically, it has a special relationship with the omnipotents, and potents of the circle. It has made its edicts known more recently with regard to its champions – Krueger and Kromac, so I see little difference in these acts, and the harbinger choosing severius as the new heirarch, and giving direction to their crusades.
I pointed out the groves are “altars” if anything, but are still a conduit. The lord of the feast is an avatar, summoned on behalf of the druids (only a few know the actual rites though). To be fair to him though, you cant kill him – he just turns into a flock of ravens and comes back at the next turnings of the moon. And he teleports. Menites have a warjack. And compared to the deathjack, it falls short, if you ask me. Skulls of hate that can transform any jack into a deathjack? Compared to random focus? Yeah… I’ll be honest, the avatar never impressed me.
If you really want to talk about avatars, and phsical links to the divine - how about the harbinger? Indesputible proof of menoth’s returning attention to caen. Its even in her name. But the circle also have their own returned “avatar” – Baldur. His consciousness merged with that of orboros when he “died”, and he achieved a level of understanding and awareness of orboros greater than anyone else. His fluff has him returned as an avatar of orboros as well, acting as a direct conduit to its power, and its one I’m quite willing to give at least a little bit of credence to whether as "avatar", or "exhalted champion". regardless, orboros is naming its pieces and setting up its gameplan, implying it has a conscious will, a direction, and goals it wishes to obtain.