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While torturing Vladimir, Vindictus accuses the Tzepesci family of trafficking with Menoth's nemesis the Devourer Wurm via a pact with Zevanna Agha. IIRC, Vindictus calls her the agent of the Wurm or something similar. But Zevanna Agha's entry in the Khador army book notes the Old Witch has a special hatred for blackclads. I thought the Circle worship/serve the Wurm. Why would the Old Witch savor killing blackclads if she too was an agent of the Wurm? Or is Orobos not exactly the same thing as the Devourer Wurm?

The way I understand the Circle they don´t exactly worship the Wurm but try to satisfy it so it does not return from where it´s hidden. As long as they keep it happy it stays where it is instead of destroying the world & people living in citys displease the mighty overlord wurm boss.

So, taking Vindictus at his word, is the Old Witch opposed to appeasing the Wurm ... as in, somehow appeasing it is like keeping it imprisoned?

i mean, there's also the possibility that Vindictus is a paranoid witch hunter who will spin any kind of conspiracy to justify righteous torture. (Keeping in mind that Vindictus was torturing Vladimir in part to experiment on the Umbrean prince's connection with Drago.) Even so, it didn't strike me that Vindictus was totally making it up. He was clearly relying on sources, in some cases written sources (maybe Khadoran?), regarding the Tzepesci family line. Also, Vladimir's own entries in the army book suggest something sinister.

No, its really that she wants it to be released.

Circle doesn't want that at all. They are striving for balance between civilization and chaos, currently they perceive civilization as being too dominant. Which risks Menoth coming back to judge the world.


And yeah, Oboros and the Wyrm are not the same thing. Oboros is the earth itself, and that is what the Circle worships. As far as I can tell, the following is basically the state of the world.

The Wyrm is the opponent of Menoth. Note that the Wyrm is not the destroyer of the world, he is the Devourer. Menoth created the world, and it is he who shall destroy it. Which wouldn't exactly be great for anybody who doesn't worship him. Urcaen isn't a good place for unbelievers and followers of lesser gods.

Civilization(Menoth) basically keeps the Devourer Wyrm at bay from consuming the world. but it also hastens Judgement Day. The Circle worships the earth and tries to maintain balance between the Wyrm and Menoth, to ensure that the world is neither devoured nor does Judgement Day come.

The Old Witch is basically a servant of the Wyrm, and seeks to bring about its release into Caen to devour the world.

My personal opinion is that would simply force Menoth's hand and make him enter the world as well to do final battle with his foe, a battle he will win, but the world will be destroyed in the conflict and Judgement Day will have come anyway.

So what does "devouring the world" amount to, practically speaking? How does this square with the Old Witch's apparent tutelage of Khador and especially the Tzepesci family? Is Vladimir putting on a show when he tells Vindictus that not only is he a sovereign but also a follower of the True Law?

I don't know for sure.

My guess is that either Vlad may actually sincerely believe what he said, and is just being deceived by the Witch. Or he's a liar. I'm not familiar enough with Khador fluff to make a guess.

He certainly is telling the truth that he is a sovereign, at least by birthright. And he's practically king in his own lands. He could probably seize the throne of Khador if he wanted to.

I mention his sovereignty to weigh his claim to the Old Faith. I mean, he is a sovereign by the True Law rather than by any connection to the Wurm, whether or not Zevanna Agha has spent centuries manipulating Khardic politics.

If I understand it correctly, the Devourer Wurm is a force of primal chaos. It's hard to understand why the Old Witch would go about serving such a force by building a complex, modern Empire.

Any clue how the Orgoth fit into the Devourer Wurm issue if at all? How about Toruk (who I supposed is the offspring of the Wurm)?

His sovereign claim is likely invalidated by his treating with the Old Witch. At least nobody in the Protectorate would argue with Vindictus on that point.

The Old Witch probably isn't human anymore, she is how many thousands of years old? She'd probably be best described as a daemonic servant of the Wyrm.

I don't really know much about the Orgoth at all.

Toruk is the offspring of the Wyrm. Naturally he isn't going to be served by either Menoth or the Wyrm coming back, he's sort of claimed Caen for himself. He's got his hands full enough with his children trying to usurp him, he doesn't need daddy or Menoth coming back to slap him down like the little upstart he is.

 Grey Templar wrote:
His sovereign claim is likely invalidated by his treating with the Old Witch. At least nobody in the Protectorate would argue with Vindictus on that point.

Really? But she's bargained with many Khardic rulers over the centuries. Not to mention, she may requisition Khadoran troops under the personal authority of the Empress. The essence of rulership is law rather than chaos.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Old Witch probably isn't human anymore, she is how many thousands of years old? She'd probably be best described as a daemonic servant of the Wyrm.

She may never have been human. It is said that Menoth found her waiting for him when he first strode the world.

 Grey Templar wrote:
like the little upstart he is

Perhaps a better title for Everblight.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, its really that she wants it to be released.

Circle doesn't want that at all. They are striving for balance between civilization and chaos, currently they perceive civilization as being too dominant. Which risks Menoth coming back to judge the world.


And yeah, Oboros and the Wyrm are not the same thing. Oboros is the earth itself, and that is what the Circle worships. As far as I can tell, the following is basically the state of the world.

The Wyrm is the opponent of Menoth. Note that the Wyrm is not the destroyer of the world, he is the Devourer. Menoth created the world, and it is he who shall destroy it. Which wouldn't exactly be great for anybody who doesn't worship him. Urcaen isn't a good place for unbelievers and followers of lesser gods.

Civilization(Menoth) basically keeps the Devourer Wyrm at bay from consuming the world. but it also hastens Judgement Day. The Circle worships the earth and tries to maintain balance between the Wyrm and Menoth, to ensure that the world is neither devoured nor does Judgement Day come.

The Old Witch is basically a servant of the Wyrm, and seeks to bring about its release into Caen to devour the world.

My personal opinion is that would simply force Menoth's hand and make him enter the world as well to do final battle with his foe, a battle he will win, but the world will be destroyed in the conflict and Judgement Day will have come anyway.

You have that backwards, actually. The problem with civilization is that the amount of souls it funnels to Menoth helps him win in Urcaen. If Menoth gains too much of the upper hand, the Wurm will decide that it's easier to get souls in Caen rather than just wait for them to die and trickle in. Needless to say, this would be a Bad Thing.

On the other hand, if Menoth loses, the Wurm wakes up anyway and Bad Things happen. Really, the whole thing is one big balancing act trying to make sure that, one way or another, the Wurm doesn't wake up.

Menoth really has no interest in entering the world Himself, beyond the rather numerous ways that He already has (Garrick Voyle, the Harbinger, the Avatar, etc).

The rest is a bit incorrect, too. Menoth, while creating humans, didn't so much create Caen. That falls slightly more on Dhunia, being the physical manifestation of Caen, although she isn't exactly an active Goddess. Overall, though, the actual creation of Caen and Urcaen is one of those big cosmic mysteries that isn't likely to be answered. Menoth also doesn't have a big interest in destroying Caen, either, seeing as he's a big fan of the whole soul mill it has going.

Zevanna Agha isn't exactly an agent of the Wurm, either, although it rather makes sense that Menites might see her as such. She's really not an agent of anyone except Khador, being what amounts to an elemental spirit of the land.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, its really that she wants it to be released.

Circle doesn't want that at all. They are striving for balance between civilization and chaos, currently they perceive civilization as being too dominant. Which risks Menoth coming back to judge the world.


And yeah, Oboros and the Wyrm are not the same thing. Oboros is the earth itself, and that is what the Circle worships. As far as I can tell, the following is basically the state of the world.

The Wyrm is the opponent of Menoth. Note that the Wyrm is not the destroyer of the world, he is the Devourer. Menoth created the world, and it is he who shall destroy it. Which wouldn't exactly be great for anybody who doesn't worship him. Urcaen isn't a good place for unbelievers and followers of lesser gods.

Civilization(Menoth) basically keeps the Devourer Wyrm at bay from consuming the world. but it also hastens Judgement Day. The Circle worships the earth and tries to maintain balance between the Wyrm and Menoth, to ensure that the world is neither devoured nor does Judgement Day come.

The Old Witch is basically a servant of the Wyrm, and seeks to bring about its release into Caen to devour the world.

My personal opinion is that would simply force Menoth's hand and make him enter the world as well to do final battle with his foe, a battle he will win, but the world will be destroyed in the conflict and Judgement Day will have come anyway.

to correct you, orboros is 'part' of the earth - its the font from which the druids draw their power, but that font, that 'nature' of orboros manifests itself as storms, floods and the primal spirit of predation. orboros is only part of what makes life exist on caen; the other part is dhunia from which all life ultimately sprung.

also, menoth shaped the earth, but only by the accounts of humans. According to other older tales, he most certainly didnt create it. menoth created humans (by accident presumably - thwy sprung from his shadow), and possibly the giants (they worship a giant masked god called monloeth) . but he wasnt there first. dhunia and the devourer had been endlessly circling each other. old RPG material puts menoth as being essentially a rape child, borne as the devourer wurm ravished dhunia. kind of explains his anger towards the devourer too.

Tarot wrote:
Zevanna Agha isn't exactly an agent of the Wurm, either, although it rather makes sense that Menites might see her as such. She's really not an agent of anyone except Khador, being what amounts to an elemental spirit of the land.

This is my impression, too -- or kind of; not so much a spirit of "the land" (qua druidic religion) but rather the spirit of the folk (das Volk); what nineteenth-century types would have called "the Khardic genius." She strikes me as a kind of pagan tutelary deity. But what's interesting is, if legends contain any truth, she precedes the peoples of the north and in this way she has a maternal character.

In retrospect, I suppose it does make sense that Vindictus would mistake her for an agent of the Wurm. In the same story, Vindictus explains to Vladimir that, unlike many of his colleagues, he has not forgotten the true enemy of Menoth in the recent struggles against Morrowan-worshiping Cygnar. It is likely that Vindictus sees most things in the context of the struggle between Menoth and the Wurm. Hence his zealotry.

Deadnight wrote:
orboros is 'part' of the earth - its the font from which the druids draw their power, but that font, that 'nature' of orboros manifests itself as storms, floods and the primal spirit of predation. orboros is only part of what makes life exist on caen; the other part is dhunia from which all life ultimately sprung

This sheds some further light on, or rather raises further questions about, the Old Witch. Notice she is said to savor killing the Blackclads but not worshipers of Dhunia. Moreover, those who worship Dhunia also revere the Wurm.

So what does Zevanna Agha have against Orboros?

Probably has something to do with the Druids manipulating the ley lines to serve their own goals. Given her own teleportation shenanigans, it's reasonably likely she can use them herself and doesn't like the competition.

 Manchu wrote:

This sheds some further light on, or rather raises further questions about, the Old Witch. Notice she is said to savor killing the Blackclads but not worshipers of Dhunia. Moreover, those who worship Dhunia also revere the Wurm.

So what does Zevanna Agha have against Orboros?

she used to be a part of the circle or orboros, actually. learned what she could, and then turned on them. if you look them up, there were alternative history cards a few years back, for an invite-only affair at one of the big american cons. you know, if eiryss was a legion warlock, if magnus and stryker swapped places as hero/traitor, if vlad served the protectorate. and the old witch was a circle warlock

the old witch has her own goals, bound up in the spirit and legacy of the people of the north. the circle, their plans and their scheming have gotten in her way in the past. remember, the circle raised the rip lung plague which devestated the orgoth, and presumably destroyed their kingdom across the sea. thats enough of a reason to hate a bunch of wilderness hippes who are custodians of the apocalypse! they posess a terrible grasp of fearsome magics that lets them punch well above their weight in terms of their numbers. even on a small scale, these are the people who steal babies, vreak down levies, wither crops, raise floods and summon storms. they're a direct threat to anyone living within the wilderness of khador, one of the areas where the old witch has claimed as her own. Just like the cygnarans, legion and trolls, the cirlce are a threat.

also, bear in mind the font of power of the old witch. its the nation, and the people of khador. think of the goals of the circle -the circle offer a direct threat to that which the old witch needs, considering their goal is to tear civilization back to the stone age.zevenna agha seeks to strengthen her nation (for purely selfish reasons) and those idiots in the trees posess powers that can thward her goals.

I wouldn't look at the PG exclusive "what if" models as a source of canon fluff...

Deadnight wrote:
she used to be a part of the circle or orboros, actually. learned what she could, and then turned on them

So are you taking about an alternate history or a forgotten past?

Deadnight wrote:
remember, the circle raised the rip lung plague which devestated the orgoth, and presumably destroyed their kingdom across the sea. thats enough of a reason to hate a bunch of wilderness hippes

Why would the Old Witch hate the Circle for crippling the Orgoth?

Deadnight wrote:
bear in mind the font of power of the old witch

Are you sure that's not just your assumption?

 Manchu wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
she used to be a part of the circle or orboros, actually. learned what she could, and then turned on them

So are you taking about an alternate history or a forgotten past?

Really weird alternate histories. Cards (sans backstory) were drawn up for a variety of different alternates (switching the twins between Haley and Deneghra being my personal favorite) as exclusive goodies for the Press Ganger Invitational a while back. They're in no way canon or have any reflection upon any actual fluff.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
she used to be a part of the circle or orboros, actually. learned what she could, and then turned on them

So are you taking about an alternate history or a forgotten past?

Really weird alternate histories. Cards (sans backstory) were drawn up for a variety of different alternates (switching the twins between Haley and Deneghra being my personal favorite) as exclusive goodies for the Press Ganger Invitational a while back. They're in no way canon or have any reflection upon any actual fluff.

I'm pretty sure that she /was/ part of the Circle though in the long past, or as close as those sorts of strange entities /are/ a part of the Circle. There have been quite a few hints about that sorta' thing amongst the Circle, Khador, and Cryx fluff.

Details?

 Manchu wrote:

So are you taking about an alternate history or a forgotten past?

the past.

 Manchu wrote:

why would the Old Witch hate the Circle for crippling the Orgoth?

you missed the point. the circle raised a plague that decimated a whole kingdom across the sea, and all but wiped out a whole nation. what happens if they decided to do this to khador? is it a risk worth taking? the only reason rip-lung didnt rip through immoren last time was due to a famous healer who ascended after. not many of those folks lying about any more.

 Manchu wrote:

]Are you sure that's not just your assumption?

Nope. the old witch draws her power from the nation, and the people of khador. she is its spirit.

 Manchu wrote:
Details?

scattered throughout the fiction; she joined them, learned their magic, then turned on them. the circle regard her as a horrid traitor, and implaccable enemy with her own goals. she refers to the land as 'hers', she merely lets the cirlce 'borrow' it from time to time.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Toruk is the offspring of the Wyrm.

No he's not, it's not even been implied in fiction. He causes blight because of his innate unnatural alien being.

Circle members even point it out in various parts of fiction that the Blight damages Orboros/ the Wurm.

In addition, Toruk and other dragons exist purely on the physical realm, unlike the Wurm, which exists in both the physical and the spiritual.

Deadnight wrote:
the old witch draws her power from the nation

Deadnight wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Details?

scattered throughout the fiction

Can you tell me which books? I definitely want to read more about this. And I know the Khador army book does not say anything that explicit about Zevanna Agha's source of power or origins (just read it last night).

Deadnight wrote:
what happens if they decided to do this to khador?

Some fans distinguish between the Circle's claim to have annihilated Orgoth and ... well, what really happened. As Doug Seacat once wrote:

The possible impact of the Rip Lung on the Orgoth homeland is something no one knows or can ascertain, given no one from Immoren has ever landed on the Orgoth home continent.

 Grey Templar wrote:


And yeah, Oboros and the Wyrm are not the same thing.

Doug Seacat says you're wrong:

"more or less all human druids would consider the Devourer Wurm their
patron, and belong to the Circle. They would actually refer to the Devourer Wurm in this case as
Orboros, which they consider to be a larger and more all-encompassing name. It's still the Devourer
providing their power in the terms of the cosmology,"

Plataun4th, could you please provide a link/citation for that (for future reference).

They would actually refer to the Devourer Wurm in this case as Orboros, which they consider to be a larger and more all-encompassing name.

Now that's interesting. I wonder what is meant by that.

 Platuan4th wrote:
He causes blight because of his innate unnatural alien being.

In what sense are dragons unnatural? Are they from some other plane or something?

Sure!

Here's the Compilation people are keeping on his quotes/posts. The first page or so is from the old forums, so no links directly to the original conversations(as they don't exist anymore). That bit is pulled from "Doug Seacat on Druids" from a discussion from the old forum's IKRPG section(and as such, the original is lost to time).

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?77295-Doug-Seacat-on

Newer updates have direct links to his posts.

 Manchu wrote:
.

 Platuan4th wrote:
He causes blight because of his innate unnatural alien being.

In what sense are dragons unnatural? Are they from some other plane or something?

It's not known where exactly Toruk originally comes from(as all other dragons come from him splitting his Athanc, their origins aren't suspect). I'll try to find the passage from an earlier MkI book where, I believe it's Krueger, talks about dragons and refers to them as such.

Ahhhh treasure trove! Thanks!

Doug's posts are part of why I wish there was an IK fluff tome, as they're all expanding upon or clarifying things written in the older IKRPG books, which few(in my experience) Warmachine players bought when they were available in hardcopy(I believe Drive Thru has some available in PDF).

 Manchu wrote:
Plataun4th, could you please provide a link/citation for that (for future reference).

They would actually refer to the Devourer Wurm in this case as Orboros, which they consider to be a larger and more all-encompassing name.

Now that's interesting. I wonder what is meant by that.

 Platuan4th wrote:
He causes blight because of his innate unnatural alien being.

In what sense are dragons unnatural? Are they from some other plane or something?

Nope, just really really evil. The alien bit refers to their alien thought processes, being sentient indestructible rocks with a self-willed "organic" body. As for the blight, dragons are radioactive. Their blight will gradually kill and mutate everything within miles of their location, and at close range will typically kill far faster (which is essentially the entire reason Toruk uses the undead: They're the only thing that can stand being in his presence without melting). Their blood is a much stronger source of the blight, and direct contact will either immediately kill or cause horrific mutations (see: Satyxis).

 Platuan4th wrote:
Doug's posts are part of why I wish there was an IK fluff tome

I used to the rue the day I didn't buy the d20 IKRPG books but now that PP is doing a new set, with IMO better production values, it's all good. The new book -- which presumably covers a lot of the first page of the thread you linked -- is called Kings, Nations, and Gods ... and why yes it is due to be delivered to my house this week.

 Laughing Man wrote:
being sentient indestructible rocks

Yeah, I have wondered for years what exactly an athanc is ...

Yeah, I'm debating whether to order it now and cancel some TF pre-orders(and hope I can grab them later) or hold off until I'm sure I can get in on a game(and risk sell-out).