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 Manchu wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
being sentient indestructible rocks

Yeah, I have wondered for years what exactly an athanc is ...

See previous comment. More seriously, all we really know about athancs is that they're the actual dragon, that they're indestructible crystals of some sort, that they're the seat of consciousness for the dragon, and that they use ambient heat to generate the quasi-organic body
(hint: throwing an athanc into a volcano to destroy it works poorly). The body itself still follows most rules for organic life (head comes off, dragon "dies"), but dragons like the Chimera (driven insane and protean by the explosion that created the Abyss) show us that the form itself is at least unconsciously under the control of the dragon.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm debating whether to order it now

If you wait til Sunday, I'll post an overview/review of the fluff aspects.

 Laughing Man wrote:
all we really know about athancs is ...

And pieces of them can be split off, right? Hence some of Everblight's favored servants ... and Everblight itself (along with its siblings).

 Manchu wrote:
And pieces of them can be split off, right? Hence some of Everblight's favored servants ... and Everblight itself (along with its siblings).

Normally, splitting an Athanc creates a new dragon. As that weakens the original dragon, no dragon is willing to create a new one, especially since you can't control the newborn(hence Toruk's problem with his kids).

Everblight has a weapon specially constructed to split his Athanc without creating a new dragon.

Manchu wrote:Details?
Can you tell me which books? I definitely want to read more about this. And I know the Khador army book does not say anything that explicit about Zevanna Agha's source of power or origins (just read it last night)

Some fans distinguish between the Circle's claim to have annihilated Orgoth and ... well, what really happened.

(1) im trying to find it, actually! iirc, it was mainly a conclusions drawn mainly from a combination of the storiesfrom the old IKRPG material and No Quarters, discussion on the PP boards etc. i think there is also some mention through the circle material, especially in the older mk1 books. im pretty sure ive come across one or two mentiones(even if its poetic) of the old witch being the spirit, and embodiment of khador and draws her power from the people of khador (or maybe it was the accepted view of the community). stands to reason then its where she draws her power from too ("the motherland has a spirit, a face and a form: a wicked old crone with iron claws").
(2) well, the circle raised the rip lung plague, and it killed loads of the the orgoth in immoren, and they brought it back home with them. for sure, its speculation, but speculation is fun. regardless, the effects of rip lung on the orgoth in immoren are beyond dispute.

Manchu wrote:I used to the rue the day I didn't buy the d20 IKRPG books but now that PP is doing a new set, with IMO better production values, it's all good. T

to be fair, you can still find/download the old PDF copies of the olkd IKRPG material on the interwebs. its a treasure trove. and now they've also got the mk1 stuff up on the PP reader app for a song.

 Manchu wrote:
And pieces of them can be split off, right? Hence some of Everblight's favored servants ... and Everblight itself (along with its siblings).

normally it creates a new dragon. everblight is the only dragon to have studied its blight, and to find a way to split its athanc without creating a new dragon. thagrosh's weapon is specially crafted to allow this to happen.

Deadnight wrote:
regardless, the effects of rip lung on the orgoth in immoren are beyond dispute

Rip Lung ravaged Immoren for 10 years and claimed at least thousands of lives. (Corben's cure is credited objectively with saving hundreds of thousands more.) Whether it was the primary factor in destabilizing the Orgoth invasion seems debatable. The Orgoth were not driven out, after all, until a century after Rip Lung was cured.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Normally, splitting an Athanc creates a new dragon. As that weakens the original dragon, no dragon is willing to create a new one, especially since you can't control the newborn(hence Toruk's problem with his kids).

Deadnight wrote:
everblight is the only dragon to have studied its blight, and to find a way to split its athanc without creating a new dragon

But presumably Everblight is still weakened by splitting his athanc?

Tarot wrote:


The rest is a bit incorrect, too. Menoth, while creating humans, didn't so much create Caen. That falls slightly more on Dhunia, being the physical manifestation of Caen, although she isn't exactly an active Goddess. Overall, though, the actual creation of Caen and Urcaen is one of those big cosmic mysteries that isn't likely to be answered. Menoth also doesn't have a big interest in destroying Caen, either, seeing as he's a big fan of the whole soul mill it has going.

It's worth noting that canonically speaking this is all a bit up in the air. The menites would certainly claim that Menoth created the phsyical universe including Caen from the primordial chaos. The worm coming later as a reaction of the chaos to that act of creation. It's Dhunians beliefs that put that goddess at the center of creation, before menoth. Yet others speculate that Menoth is the child of dhunia & The Worm. Much of the information we have in canon is merely speculation or interpretations mortals have made. Especially when it comes to creation there are a lot of competing theological views.

I know that Dhunia-worshipers revere the Wurm as the paternal but do they revere Menoth at all?

Generally no. Dhunian worshippers generally regard her as their mother and the Wurm as their father. Between the 2 it leaves little place for other faiths. Of course, I'm sure they have respect for Menoth since Gods in warmachine are considered real beings that interact with and through their subjects.

I would also like to say the Wurm is not really a tangible thing. Consider it more like Orboros is nature as a whole. The Wurm is the violent side. Lightning storms, earthquakes, typhoons etc. If the Wurm returns from Urcaen this is the kind of apocalypse you are looking at, but on a scale unimaginable, even by the standards of the blackclads.

Ah, now we are coming, ahem, full circle. What then is the agenda of the Blackclads?

Keeping the balance between Order/Civilization and Chaos/the Wild.

Too much Chaos, the Wurm wins and eats Caen. Too much Order, Menoth wins and destroys Caen.

I'm not clear on why Menoth would destroy Caen.

And in any case, this is starting to sound very much like Grey Templar's answer that the Circle wants to keep the Wurm imprisoned -- and the Old Witch hates them for this. Now, that doesn't seem right to me because it doesn't make sense to serve the Devourer Wurm by building nations and empires. Furthermore, Zevanna Agha does not seem to care about whether Khadorans worship Menoth, the Twins, or whatever, much less the Wurm.

I think one thing is very clear about Orboros; it is not an agent (like the Twins or [allegedly] Menoth and Cyriss) so much as a concept. Now, perhaps that also means that the Devourer Wurm is a concept or perhaps it means Orboros and the Wurm are not entirely synonymous. Perhaps the word "Orboros" simply refers to the druidic experience of the Wurm, given that is something distinct from worship (they are not clerics).

Whatever it is, I think that must be what the Old Witch opposes. And if this is a wider contest, moreover, we know what tools Zevanna Agha uses: noble lineages, tribes of men, the assembly of nations, the building of an empire. In short, she has fostered Law rather than Chaos. Now, that's not to say she is aligned with order; just that this is the strategy she employs -- the weapon she picked. And so we can learn something of the threat by the shape of the weapon wielded against it.

And on that note, we should consider Vladimir.

Ultimately, I don't think its possible to nail down what the Old Witch is after exactly.

Yeah, until one of us starts writing fluff for PP without a NDA we won't have a sure answer. But there are lots of hints and clues in the meantime ... so for example there is the issue of Vladimir.

(1) In the Witch's entry, there is the mysterious prospect of her promise that the rulers and warriors of Khador will be aided by by "the ancient source of their blood."

(2) In the fiction section, Vladimir can feel some kind of power emanating from within him and it is described as a function of his blood.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not clear on why Menoth would destroy Caen.

He wouldn't. I don't know where people keep getting this idea. He's got a wonderful human farm going that's feeding his City, Man is his own creation (allegedly) as is Caen (also allegedly, which I don't buy for a second), and it's got a pretty decent section of its population are devout worshippers (see human farm). If he ever did catch and kill the Wurm, it's likely he'd simply start hedging in on the other human gods' territories in Urcaen and there'd be a new bout of holy wars going on there.

3++ puts the Circle's motivations much better than I can:

The Devourer Wurm is the embodiment of the predatory spirit of Caen. Before the appearance of mankind, the Devourer and Menoth battled across Caen before Menoth retreated to Urcaen. The two struggle there even to this day, locked in a vicious stalemate. Should the Devourer's flow of energy from Caen ever become so disrupted that Menoth begins to get the upper hand, the Devourer will return to Caen and destroy all humanity. Should the Devourer receive so much power from Caen that he can overcome Menoth, he will return to Caen and destroy all humanity.

This tenuous balance between two disastrous outcomes is what the Circle Orboros wishes to preserve. The secretive order carefully siphons the power of Orboros to cull human society and keep it from disrupting the flow of power to the Devourer. At the same time, the Circle is careful not to destroy too much of civilization for fear that the Devourer will actually win his eternal stalemate.

 Manchu wrote:
Rip Lung ravaged Immoren for 10 years and claimed at least thousands of lives. (Corben's cure is credited objectively with saving hundreds of thousands more.) Whether it was the primary factor in destabilizing the Orgoth invasion seems debatable. The Orgoth were not driven out, after all, until a century after Rip Lung was cured.

But presumably Everblight is still weakened by splitting his athanc?

heh, found my quotes. they're in the circle section of the hordes primal book.

rip lung ravaged immoren for 10 years, killed thousands and forced the orgoth to burn whole swathes of their cities. however, it had a greater effect that what took place on immoren. as was described (paraphrased to avoid any copyright issues) "we hadmany victories against the orgoth especially with the spread of the disease rip lung, a true gift of orboros. few would attribute the disease to the destruction of the invaders empire but we know the plague traced their supply routes back to their homeland and devestated their population across the sea."

it took a long time to drive the orgoth out, but many factors were ultimately responsible. the circle played their role too.

as to everblight being weakened - how would he be? its still *his* athanc. its still *everblight*.

When toruk sired his progeny by splitting his athanc, he did weaken himself as all the other dragons grew strong and independent. with everblight, this does not happen. he can split his athanc into various shards. it will not weaken him, and his power is not being syphoned off into a new dragon. all it does is allow him to spread himself further and allow a failsafe mechanism - kill a warlock, and destroy that part of his athanc, and there is still more of him out there! his athanc is still one athanc, its merely in more than one place at the same time.


___________________



Regarding the old witch, there is further information in hordes primal in the cirlce section. i'll paraphrase again:
"the immortal zevenna agha is a power who has at times thwarted the plans of the entire order. she protects the northern tribes and their lands for her own reasons. at one time she walked in our midst, for her power echoed our own, yet ultimately, she betrayed us and used our lore against us. her ability to draw on the vitality of the land is akin to ours, yet she also draws on the vast strength of the people themselves. we have clased with her many times in our effort to weaken the khardic empire and to thwart their inheritors - the khadorans, but she has vexed us at every turn."

 Manchu wrote:
I know that Dhunia-worshipers revere the Wurm as the paternal but do they revere Menoth at all?

they see him as the greatest of dhunias children, but little more than that. they see dhunia as "mom", and the devourer as "dad".

Manchu wrote:Ah, now we are coming, ahem, full circle. What then is the agenda of the Blackclads?

maintain balance.

Platuan4th wrote:Keeping the balance between Order/Civilization and Chaos/the Wild.

Too much Chaos, the Wurm wins and eats Caen. Too much Order, Menoth wins and destroys Caen.

Manchu wrote:I'm not clear on why Menoth would destroy Caen.
.

he woulsnt. platuan4th is wrong on this. its all about keeping the will of the devourer distracted in its endless war against menoth in urcaen. if it wins its war against him, it will return in force, and topple mountains,set loose tsunamis, and erase humanity from caen.if it loses its war against menoth, (because its font of power in caen dries up from too much civilization), it will return in force and topple mountains, set loose tsunamis and erase humanity from caen. the circle tread a fine line; they are the costodians of the apocalypse, essentially. their whole purppose it to maintain a balance and keep the devourer engaged in urcaen, where it simply cannot bother anything, but also to keep it strong enough in urcaen so it doesnt want to come back.

Manchu wrote:
And in any case, this is starting to sound very much like Grey Templar's answer that the Circle wants to keep the Wurm imprisoned -- and the Old Witch hates them for this. Now, that doesn't seem right to me because it doesn't make sense to serve the Devourer Wurm by building nations and empires. Furthermore, Zevanna Agha does not seem to care about whether Khadorans worship Menoth, the Twins, or whatever, much less the Wurm.
.

See above. its more complicated than that. regarding the old witch, she wants a strong nation as thats where she draws her power from. she simply has no interest in other gods.

Manchu wrote:
I think one thing is very clear about Orboros; it is not an agent (like the Twins or [allegedly] Menoth and Cyriss) so much as a concept. Now, perhaps that also means that the Devourer Wurm is a concept or perhaps it means Orboros and the Wurm are not entirely synonymous. Perhaps the word "Orboros" simply refers to the druidic experience of the Wurm, given that is something distinct from worship (they are not clerics).

orboros is real, and is a "thing". Its not a god, however. like dhunia, it is... something else. the will of orboros is in urcaen battling menoth, its essence remains on caen (flowing rivers, storm clouds, raging oceans etc). the devourer wurn is one aspect of of orboros; it is the ravenous hunger, the conscious awareness of orboros and the embodiment of its will.

Manchu wrote:
Whatever it is, I think that must be what the Old Witch opposes. And if this is a wider contest, moreover, we know what tools Zevanna Agha uses: noble lineages, tribes of men, the assembly of nations, the building of an empire. In short, she has fostered Law rather than Chaos. Now, that's not to say she is aligned with order; just that this is the strategy she employs -- the weapon she picked. And so we can learn something of the threat by the shape of the weapon wielded against it.

And on that note, we should consider Vladimir.

Yeah, until one of us starts writing fluff for PP without a NDA we won't have a sure answer. But there are lots of hints and clues in the meantime ... so for example there is the issue of Vladimir.

(1) In the Witch's entry, there is the mysterious prospect of her promise that the rulers and warriors of Khador will be aided by by "the ancient source of their blood."

(2) In the fiction section, Vladimir can feel some kind of power emanating from within him and it is described as a function of his blood.

bear in mind with regard to vlad, his inspiration is vampiric, hence all the nods to "blood" in his spell lists and feats. vlad tzepisci is a take on vlad tepes, a famous romanian prince often known in the west as vlad the impaler, who was the source material for dracula. (indeed, dracul even refers to an old hungarian order of knights - the order of the dragon, but that name is now synonymous with nosferatu). vlad often embodies that ageless grace, and ancient lineage/glory, along with wit, charm and style that our modern take on vampires seem to find so fascinating. So you need to be a bit wary of mentions of vlad and his blood, and remember a lot of that will be a nod to his sources of inspiration, if anything else.

Now, as for the old witch, she has dragged and pushed khador, and its predecessor to empire. why? we dont know. we can suspect. for all their history, she has been a kingmaker. she wants khador to be an empire. she attacks any direct and indirect threats to that empire, so whatever that empire is, is important to her. but as the circle book mentions, her powers are akin to those the circle draw on - the land, and also, its people.

Circle Orboros

I've come across those lines before. I think the most important thing about them is they are written in the first person. That is to say, these are claims the Blackclads are making about their own importance, characterized by their own point of view, its limitations, its agenda. As I've already established, their claims about Rip Lung are (1) improvable as to the Orgoth homeland and (2) overstated as to Western Immoren.

I think you have to take the same approach to this whole "custodians of the apocalypse" line of theirs. The idea that the Wurm will come destroy the world no matter what -- oops, I mean that only the Blackclads can prevent this is patently self-serving and therefore merits prima facie skepticism. Does no other power have a say? Menoth, Dhunia, Cyriss, the Twins and their ascended, the Dwarven and Elven pantheons ... all these powers have a strong interest in Caen. But according to the Blackclads, only a tiny group of druids are holding back the fury of ragnarok.

Yeah right.

The Old Witch

The same lesson should apply to the Circle's opinion of Zevanna Agha. Why should we believe their claims about the Old Witch anymore than Vindictus's opinion (from the Menoth army book) that she is "the prophet of the Wurm." Vindictus's view is colored by his own perception of reality. He seems to think the Crone of Crows is something like the Devourer Wurm's version of the Harbinger of Menoth. And the druids, in their boundless arrogance, claim she's similar to them. Fine but it's no more credible than Vindictus's opinion of her.

Just take a close look at the claim: she's similar to them but draws her power from the peoples of the North rather than just the land. This is a paradoxical statement. The Blackclads draw their power from the Orboros aspect of the Wurm. The opposite of that is the Menite practice of (indirectly and directly) drawing power from the masses of the faithful. Are the Blackclads claiming that Zevanna Agha does both? I suspect they once again have no idea what they are talking about. (More about this below.)

Furthermore, while Circle Orboros is objectively one of the oldest if not the oldest human organization on Caen, it's quite possible that the Old Witch is older still. As I mentioned earlier, their are tales of Menoth finding her waiting for him when he first strode Caen. Perhaps this is just a legend but it's no more legendary than the one told by the Circle.

Vladimir

Sure, this character is clearly based on Vlad Tepes. Here's one you may not know: according to folk takes, Dracula attended the Scholomance -- Satan's own college for the instruction of witches in black magic. Something of a parallel to Vladimir's relationship with the Old Witch, no? But in any case it would be a mistake to wave away aspects of the fluff just because the character's source material is rather obvious.

For example, there are plenty of references to blood regarding the Old Witch as well. She says the Khadorans will be aided by the "ancient source of their blood" and her own blood, when accidentally shed by Deneghra, is used by Malathrax to unseal an athanc -- because the Crone of Crows used her own blood to seal it in the first place. There are also many references throughout the fluff to Khador's "blood-soaked soil," which puts me in mind of Cryxian necrotite. But I haven't found any substantive clues really connecting those concepts.

I digress; the issue to hand is Vladimir. He's our best clue as to what the Old Witch is and what she's up to. As argued above, it is just as likely that she is some kind of druid as it is that she is the prophet of the Wurm -- that is, very unlikely. These are easily seen to be the prejudices of the Blackclads and Vindictus respectively rather than insights into truth. With Vladimir, we have an example. Rather than leaching power out of the land or people, as the druids seem to, Zevanna Agha has built up the people, especially by the manipulation of bloodlines. Vladimir is the ultimate (in the literal sense) expression of this and we know he is bound up with some "great doom" for all of Khador as a function of being the last in his line.

 Manchu wrote:
But presumably Everblight is still weakened by splitting his athanc?

Since Everblight's Athanc is actually still one "thing", he actually apparently is just spreading his power out. And since he now can use his warlock's inherent magical ability and life force to create more spawn than other dragons normally can, he actually might be getting stronger due to it than a dragon normally would be doing in this process.

 Manchu wrote:

... I think you have to take the same approach to this whole "custodians of the apocalypse" line of theirs. The idea that the Wurm will come destroy the world no matter what -- oops, I mean that only the Blackclads can prevent this is patently self-serving and therefore merits prima facie skepticism. Does no other power have a say? Menoth, Dhunia, Cyriss, the Twins and their ascended, the Dwarven and Elven pantheons ... all these powers have a strong interest in Caen. But according to the Blackclads, only a tiny group of druids are holding back the fury of ragnarok. ...

Things to remember about the issues the Circle talks about are fairly human-centric. A lot of what distracts the Wurm is Menoth, the Creator of Man. What fuels him is human souls, human civilization and all that. Menoth is part of the problem and non-human gods are either dead and dying (elves) or probably able to protect their people just fine in an apocalypse (dwarves). The Twins and their church as I can gather is tangentally annoying to the Circle, in that they tend to be in cities that build sacred sites on the things that should be fueling Orboros. It doens't feed Menoth though, so it's a slower bleed. Dhunia isn't sapient and her worshippers are not as important in the entire schemes of politics. Finally, Cyriss and her cult are actually also part of the problem, as they're taking nodes and redirecting that to an alien primal god for an invasion.

So the idea that no one else has interests in what the Circle does is pretty valid on the above issues. To add to this, while the Circle is a small organization, druids are in the setting individually very powerful beings with acdess to a lot of force projection and powerful allies. This means that they're one of the more effecient groups in Immoren for their size.

Finally, the Circle admits the entire enterprise, long term, is doomed. That's a thing I think to remember: the group knows that at the rate things are, they're boned. The goal is to make sure that when the apocalypse hits, it's some future generation's problem, not there's.

It might be me, but it is important to look at hte organization as having a bit of a vernier of cynical realists to its structure. A lot of druids are along with their jobs as currators of the end of the world also like the fact that being a druid means you get power and so manuever a lot to maintain that. It is also notable that while they revere and draw from Orboros, druids don't actually worship it. That's kind of a weird take on a druidic order to me on some level compared to some fantasy settings, but their somewhat hostile relationship with their patron force is kind of important I think in understanding how they view and interact with it.

And stuff.

I think you're just handwaving away the problem of powers other than the Wurm. For example, Dhunia is not a sentient force -- and yet the Wurm is? And how are Dwarves better able to confront the end of Caen than humans? Then there's Menoth, who (as argued above) has every reason to preserve Caen.

 Manchu wrote:
I think you're just handwaving away the problem of powers other than the Wurm. For example, Dhunia is not a sentient force -- and yet the Wurm is? And how are Dwarves better able to confront the end of Caen than humans? Then there's Menoth, who (as argued above) has every reason to preserve Caen.

I think it's important to remember that the cosmology of the IK is deliberately kept vague (and in some places contradictory). So it's really not about whether you believe that the druids are the only thing keeping Caen from destruction at the hands of the Wurm, but rather the fact that they do: whether that is born out of earnest belief or as a cynical veneer to maintain their own power is left to your interpretation, much like trying to untangle the truth from the egotism in Everblight's description of himself in Primal.

The first sentence of your post can only support the opposite of the conclusion in your second sentence. That is, what you claim is a deliberate strategy to keep cosmology vague (source?) cannot justify any "facts" at all but rather only perspectives. I agree with Deadnight and Blaque insofar as the published fluff certainly says the Blackclads think this is what they're doing but we can find in other portions of the same franchise contrary information.

 Manchu wrote:
The first sentence of your post can only support the opposite of the conclusion in your second sentence. That is, what you claim is a deliberate strategy to keep cosmology vague (source?) cannot justify any "facts" at all but rather only perspectives. I agree with Deadnight and Blaque insofar as the published fluff certainly says the Blackclads think this is what they're doing but we can find in other portions of the same franchise contrary information.

This is by design. Doug Seacat (lead world builder/writer) has been very explicit in that all information that has printed about the gods, urcean, and all other supernatural forces in the setting are simply the views of organizations or people. We have no objective facts, just varying imperfect perspectives. Heck, even when giving his own perspective on the world he tends to use langauge like "I imagine that.." or "It seems likely that...". The overall policy for the fluff is that PP & the books never speak to anything objectively true about setting, just information that is available to those in the setting itself.

That's problematic when you also publish third-person omniscient fiction.

Not terribly. After all, all the stories have to be from someone's perspective, and Privateer doesn't use the 3rd person omniscient very often.

 Laughing Man wrote:
he stories have to be from someone's perspective

When that perspective is omniscient, however, we pierce the veil of subjectivity as a matter of definition. And in any event, the facts of a franchise remain it's facts. It is a fact, for example, that Menoth exists. What it is or wants or has done is, on the other hand, a matter of subjective debate.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Privateer doesn't use the 3rd person omniscient very often

Sure, which is exactly what I'm pointing out about the Blackclad's explanation of Rip Lung and the Old Witch. I think we can assume PP intended to publish those statements in the first person for the very reason that the content was less about facts than perspective.

As it turns out, the Circle believes the Wurm and Dhunia are both "manifestations of a single primal and all-pervasive entity they call Orboros." (IK Core Rules, p. 11) Dhunia is the "tangible physicality" and the Wurm is the "conscious will and most violent impulses" of Orboros.

I think it is very important to remember two things.

The fluff is purposely designed to NOT give us all the information. I think everyone has their own theories and none of them are necessarily right. Or Wrong.

Second, a lot of the fluff had to be tweaked for the D20 IKRPG system. So even though something may have been cannon in that system doesn't mean it is necessarily so or hasn't been tweaked. So when you refer to that and refer to Doug's old posts keep that in mind as well.

Otherwise I think this conversation is quite interesting.

 Mordekiem wrote:
The fluff is purposely designed to NOT give us all the information.

What gave you that idea? Is that in a book, on a webpage, in NQ, or something?

 Mordekiem wrote:
Second, a lot of the fluff had to be tweaked for the D20 IKRPG system.

Well, what I posted above actually comes from the new product rather than the d20 product. But you should also know that the IK fluff came before Warmachine. This stuff was originally made for playing Third Edition D&D (the original d20). You can see that history in the fluff even today. For example, the four main factions of WM are determined by the four energy types of D&D 3E.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mordekiem wrote:
The fluff is purposely designed to NOT give us all the information.

What gave you that idea? Is that in a book, on a webpage, in NQ, or something?

 Mordekiem wrote:
Second, a lot of the fluff had to be tweaked for the D20 IKRPG system.

Well, what I posted above actually comes from the new product rather than the d20 product. But you should also know that the IK fluff came before Warmachine. This stuff was originally made for playing Third Edition D&D (the original d20). You can see that history in the fluff even today. For example, the four main factions of WM are determined by the four energy types of D&D 3E.

The simple fact that the fluff does NOT give us all the info is enough for me. How do you keep people interested in the story if they know all? I'll use the Old Witch as exhibit A. The simple fact you guys are all debating what she is up to, where she came from, etc just shows that PP is holding some things back. There are also plenty of hints and other things in all the fluff.

As for what you posted regarding fluff I was not paying attention to where it came from or what you specifically posted. I wasn't calling any specific person out. I do know that some people were quoting Doug from the D20 period. And he has recently said that the fluff from that period may not match up with the current fluff since they modified some of it to fit the D20 system. And yes, I know the RPG came before the tabletop game. Still doesn't change the fact that some fluff has been modified over time.

I'm not calling anyone out saying they are right or wrong. I'm just saying that in a discussion about the "truth" we need to consider that we don't know everything and parts of the "truth" have changed over time.

To me that just leads to the realization that the "truth" may or may not be. That said, I do like the intellectual (and philosophical) discussion. Even if I know it won't lead me to the ultimate truth.

 Mordekiem wrote:
And yes, I know the RPG came before the tabletop game. Still doesn't change the fact that some fluff has been modified over time.

It doesn't strike me as implausible. I just don't know of any specific examples. What I want to avoid is some of the confusion that has sprung up in 40k fluff discussion where people endlessly argue about some bit of information "not counting" because it comes from a non-wargaming product. The thing to keep in mind with IK is that you can't discount anything simply because it comes from roleplaying material or a novel.

 Mordekiem wrote:
That said, I do like the intellectual (and philosophical) discussion. Even if I know it won't lead me to the ultimate truth.

Somethings we do know as "ultimate truth" even if it's just a matter of perspective. For example, we know that the blackclads believe Orboros is an entity that makes up both of what other denizens of Caen call the Devourer Wurm and Dhunia. Now, whether that is "factually" true is another matter and one that, so far as I know, no published source or internet post from a writer employed by PP has covered. So on that kind of point, there's room for us to discuss.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Keeping the balance between Order/Civilization and Chaos/the Wild.

Too much Chaos, the Wurm wins and eats Caen. Too much Order, Menoth wins and destroys Caen.

Actually, in both cases, the Wurm comes back and eats Caen.

The Blackclads objective is to maintain the balance between civilization and wilderness, because they believe that any drastic change in this balance would lead to the Wurm coming back into the world. Their problems with Menoth and Menites is that Menoth IS the human god of civilization (he first gave humans the Flame, the Wall and the Field, if I recall correctly), and doesn't believe whatsoever that the Wurm can come back on Caen.

In this aspect, the Blackclads and the Retribution are very similar. Both are groups of extremists who accomplishes monstrous things in the name of beliefs that aren't backed by anything. There's no more proof that the Wurm could cross over from Urcaen than there is that human magic is associated with the elven god's torpor. After all, every god but Dhunia and the Wurm periodically sends entities in Caen to accomplish various tasks for their followers. We know there are Wurm-aligned creatures in Urcaen, but they've never showed up on the 'material' side.