Only standard Citadel kit to be allowed in 6th edition

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**crazysaneman**

Miniatures
• All of your models must be fully painted and based and fully represent what is on your army list (including all
equipment).
• Every miniature and component must be produced by Games Workshop (Citadel, Forge World or Warhammer Forge).
• We know many people like to take the opportunity to convert models for thematic and creative reasons. We actively
encourage this, but do ask that if you are going to do so, please check with the events team fi rst. We may ask you to
make allowances at the event in order to ensure there is no confusion for your opponents.
Proxies
• A “proxy miniature” is a model that is standing in for something else and has not been changed in any way. Examples
include using plastic Cadian Shock Troops as Stormtroopers, plastic Tyranid Raveners as Fiends of Slannesh or plastic
MORIA Goblins as Gundabad Blackshields.
• We do not allow any proxy miniatures at our events. If Games Workshop produces a model for a unit entry, we expect
you to use the correct model, for the sake of clarity to your opponent. (For conversions, please see the point above in
the ‘Miniatures’ section).
• If you wish to personalise your units and/or convert/kit bash plastic or Citadel Finecast kits to create your own unique
models that fi t your vision of your army, please check with the events team fi rst. We may ask you to make allowances at
the event in order to ensure enjoyment of your opponents. Simply gluing a scope to plastic Cadian Shock Trooper won’t
make him a Kasrkin, but adding a gnarly chainsword and an appropriate paint job to a tactical marine can easily make
him a heretic Chaos Marine Renegade

AS-PER: 2013 GW Throne of Skulls Tournament Rules
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2730448a_Throne_of_Skulls_Rules_WHWorld_2013.pdf

Everyone is right. No, you can't use something not produced by *Citadel*. Yes you can kitbash (with permission of the judge).

**Crimson**

Peregrine wrote:

The GW website does offer lots of helpful tips, but it also has instructions. For example, it tells you what a Rhino model is. It doesn't say "here's a cool way to represent your Rhino but feel free to use others", it says "this is a Rhino".

But that's not rules!

Again, the alternative to this is complete absurdity where you can use a grot as a Land Raider because it's a Citadel miniature and you're never required to use the appropriate Citadel miniature.

Yes. And it is not any more absurd than claiming that you cannot convert models. But then we can use all this outside the rules content like product names and the modelling section to conclude how the game is actually meant to be played.

**Godless-Mimicry**

Peregrine wrote:
Kommissar Kel wrote:
Show me the rule.

The rule is in the product title. GW assumes that you're intelligent enough to figure out that "use Citadel models" means "use the Citadel model with that unit name", not "use any Citadel model you want, regardless of how appropriate it is". It's kind of like how the movement rules never explicitly state that you pick up the model and move it to its new location, since everyone capable of reading and understanding the rulebook knows that's what you're supposed to do.

So you are calling it RAW awhile ago and now saying it is based in assumptions? Sorry mate, but you are reaching something fierce here. You've been asked severals times to provide a citation in the BRB of where it says you must use the appropriate Citadel Miniature, and have failed to do so. Why is that?

**FinnSeer**

I have a hunch. It does not exist

And the one who said that GW does not release codexes without models anymore has a weird sense of time. Last saturday GW released codex: Inquisition, which still has acolytes with gear not available for example.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And game of throne tournament rules are not part of Warhammer 40K rules.

We

crazysaneman wrote:
Miniatures
• All of your models must be fully painted and based and fully represent what is on your army list (including all
equipment).
• Every miniature and component must be produced by Games Workshop (Citadel, Forge World or Warhammer Forge).
• We know many people like to take the opportunity to convert models for thematic and creative reasons. We actively
encourage this, but do ask that if you are going to do so, please check with the events team fi rst. We may ask you to
make allowances at the event in order to ensure there is no confusion for your opponents.
Proxies
• A “proxy miniature” is a model that is standing in for something else and has not been changed in any way. Examples
include using plastic Cadian Shock Troops as Stormtroopers, plastic Tyranid Raveners as Fiends of Slannesh or plastic
MORIA Goblins as Gundabad Blackshields.
• We do not allow any proxy miniatures at our events. If Games Workshop produces a model for a unit entry, we expect
you to use the correct model, for the sake of clarity to your opponent. (For conversions, please see the point above in
the ‘Miniatures’ section).
• If you wish to personalise your units and/or convert/kit bash plastic or Citadel Finecast kits to create your own unique
models that fi t your vision of your army, please check with the events team fi rst. We may ask you to make allowances at
the event in order to ensure enjoyment of your opponents. Simply gluing a scope to plastic Cadian Shock Trooper won’t
make him a Kasrkin, but adding a gnarly chainsword and an appropriate paint job to a tactical marine can easily make
him a heretic Chaos Marine Renegade

AS-PER: 2013 GW Throne of Skulls Tournament Rules
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2730448a_Throne_of_Skulls_Rules_WHWorld_2013.pdf

Everyone is right. No, you can't use something not produced by *Citadel*. Yes you can kitbash (with permission of the judge).

This is cool and all but not the BRB. It's just some tournament rules. Now if we want to say that these have some official bearing on games outside the tournament then please bear in mind the part where it says all models must be fully painted and based - once and for all ending the debate on whether you have to paint your minaitures.

Seriously, there is nowhere in the BRB where it explicitly states you must use Citadel Miniatures. The sentence, "The citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as model in the rules that follow" is the closest we get. Some people are just interpreting this sentence to mean that - but in reality it is a poorly worded sentence in a poorly worded ruleset which can have different interpretations. Which is why RAW arguments are ridiculous in this game.

Further, there is absolutely no where in the BRB it says you must follow the instructions when assembling your models. If so please quote the rule and page number for me.

**FarseerAndyMan**

Served!!

Its up to you Peregrin to provide the RAW page number...

**rigeld2**

If you use non-citadel miniatures they are not referred to as models in the rules. In fact, they're not referred to as anything.

That's RAW. To use non-Citadel minis, find a passage that tells you "models" is more generic than that.

**FlingitNow**

Peregrine is 100% correct RaW no conversions or non-citadel miniatures. As for page ref check page 2 first sentence this shows permission to use citadel miniatures. Conversions are not citadel miniatures (citadel don't make a model or an Empire Hand gunner carrying a boltgun), anything made not by the instructions ceases to be a citadel miniature.

If you want to use a conversion or any other non-citadel miniature in RaW you need show proof of permission.

As for using the corresponding character that is covered start of page 3. "Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile" so a tactical space marine model has a profile, a landraider model has a profile thus if you are using a Landraider model you get the Landraider profile and if not you don't.

**Soladrin**

I'm going to stab my eyes out and inhale some anthrax, brb.

**undertow**

FlingitNow wrote:
Conversions are not citadel miniatures (citadel don't make a model or an Empire Hand gunner carrying a boltgun), anything made not by the instructions ceases to be a citadel miniature.

Do you have a rules reference to back up this statement?

**FlingitNow**

Soladrin wrote:
I'm going to stab my eyes out and inhale some anthrax, brb.

Why. The rule makes perfect sense and means that any conversion has to be an agreed house rule with your opponent (or TO). It just means you can always call shenanigans on anyone trying to pull MFA on you.

**Kommissar Kel**

rigeld2 wrote:
If you use non-citadel miniatures they are not referred to as models in the rules. In fact, they're not referred to as anything.

That's RAW. To use non-Citadel minis, find a passage that tells you "models" is more generic than that.

That is not what I was arguing, Nor what this topic is about; it is about kit-bashing and using "non-standard" Citadel minatures(Say Bretonian Knights Errant as Rough Riders in an IG list)

**rigeld2**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
If you use non-citadel miniatures they are not referred to as models in the rules. In fact, they're not referred to as anything.

That's RAW. To use non-Citadel minis, find a passage that tells you "models" is more generic than that.
That is not what I was arguing, Nor what this topic is about; it is about kit-bashing and using "non-standard" Citadel minatures(Say Bretonian Knights Errant as Rough Riders in an IG list)

That's fair - I was going off the last few posts before mine which seemed to indicate they were arguing using non-citadel minis.

**Kommissar Kel**

FlingitNow wrote:
Peregrine is 100% correct RaW no conversions or non-citadel miniatures. As for page ref check page 2 first sentence this shows permission to use citadel miniatures. Conversions are not citadel miniatures (citadel don't make a model or an Empire Hand gunner carrying a boltgun), anything made not by the instructions ceases to be a citadel miniature.

If you want to use a conversion or any other non-citadel miniature in RaW you need show proof of permission.

As for using the corresponding character that is covered start of page 3. "Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile" so a tactical space marine model has a profile, a landraider model has a profile thus if you are using a Landraider model you get the Landraider profile and if not you don't.

No where Near.

Kit-Bashed, 100% Citadel Miniatures, are citadel Miniatures, every component is made by citadel, and the specific bits are also from Citadel.

Or can you not use a Plasma Cannon Marine from the devastator box as a Plasma Cannon Heavy Weapon in your tac squad(which is what Peregrine is saying)?

Edit:Spelling

**FlingitNow**

undertow wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
Conversions are not citadel miniatures (citadel don't make a model or an Empire Hand gunner carrying a boltgun), anything made not by the instructions ceases to be a citadel miniature.

Do you have a rules reference to back up this statement?

The rules don't define what a citadel miniature is (or what "the" means or lots of other words a phrases in the book). So we use the normal definition of a citadel miniature which would be a miniature produced by citadel miniatures. Conversions are not miniatures produced by citadel miniatures. If you disagree just show me where in citadel's catalog it has an Empire Handgunner with boltgun? (Online catalog is the only one available so technically there is an argument that OOP models can't be used).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

No where Near.

Kit-Bashed, 100% Citadel Miniatures, are citadel Miniatures, every component is made by citadel, and the specific bits are also from Citadel.

Not true Citadel miniatures are the miniatures that citadel produces. So you have to build them as per the instructions for them to be citadel miniatures otherwise they are miniatures of your own design using citadel parts. There is no permission to use miniatures of your own design unless you'd like to point me to it?

Or can you not use a Plasma Cannon Marine from the devastator box as a Plasma Cannon Heavy Weapon in your tac squad(which is what Peregrine is saying)?

RaW no you can't. What is your point? Peregrine has been very clear on what is RAW and on what the standard player conventions are. This came about because someone claimed their MFA dreadnaught was allowed RAW and Peregrine pointed out no conversions are allowed RaW...

**Crimson**

FlingitNow wrote:

The rules don't define what a citadel miniature is (or what "the" means or lots of other words a phrases in the book). So we use the normal definition of a citadel miniature which would be a miniature produced by citadel miniatures. Conversions are not miniatures produced by citadel miniatures. If you disagree just show me where in citadel's catalog it has an Empire Handgunner with boltgun? (Online catalog is the only one available so technically there is an argument that OOP models can't be used).

Well, actually citadel mostly produces sprues containing model bits.

Not true Citadel miniatures are the miniatures that citadel produces. So you have to build them as per the instructions for them to be citadel miniatures otherwise they are miniatures of your own design using citadel parts. There is no permission to use miniatures of your own design unless you'd like to point me to it?

Tell you what. Combine some space wolf bits with tactical marine bits, cast the resulting model and start selling copies of it. Lets see how GW's lawyers feel about your theory of it being your own design.

**Kommissar Kel**

FlingitNow wrote:
undertow wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
Conversions are not citadel miniatures (citadel don't make a model or an Empire Hand gunner carrying a boltgun), anything made not by the instructions ceases to be a citadel miniature.

Do you have a rules reference to back up this statement?

The rules don't define what a citadel miniature is (or what "the" means or lots of other words a phrases in the book). So we use the normal definition of a citadel miniature which would be a miniature produced by citadel miniatures. Conversions are not miniatures produced by citadel miniatures. If you disagree just show me where in citadel's catalog it has an Empire Handgunner with boltgun? (Online catalog is the only one available so technically there is an argument that OOP models can't be used).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

No where Near.

Kit-Bashed, 100% Citadel Miniatures, are citadel Miniatures, every component is made by citadel, and the specific bits are also from Citadel.

Not true Citadel miniatures are the miniatures that citadel produces. So you have to build them as per the instructions for them to be citadel miniatures otherwise they are miniatures of your own design using citadel parts. There is no permission to use miniatures of your own design unless you'd like to point me to it?

Or can you not use a Plasma Cannon Marine from the devastator box as a Plasma Cannon Heavy Weapon in your tac squad(which is what Peregrine is saying)?

RaW no you can't. What is your point? Peregrine has been very clear on what is RAW and on what the standard player conventions are. This came about because someone claimed their MFA dreadnaught was allowed RAW and Peregrine pointed out no conversions are allowed RaW...

Kindly Quote the RAW on what a "Citadel Miniature" is.

Also A Devastaor Box produced Plasma cannon citadel Miniature is not simply a citadel Miniature How exactly?What rules do you have to back up that a citadel miniature of the common acceptance of a Plasma cannon armed space marine is only a devastator marine and not any plasma cannon armed space marine?

Also which arms, legs, torsos and heads am I supposed to use together; If I get one wrong clearly by your definition I no longer have a "Citadel Miniature" right?

**Crimson**

We have actually had this same thread many times, and it boils down to some people thinking that assembly instructions that come in (some of) the kits are somehow more valid rules material than the modelling section in the BRB.

**Godless-Mimicry**

I've just noticed how the usual YMDC regulars have come nowhere near this thread; speaks volumes for its legitimacy.

**nekronuke**

'Sorry guys, the hundreds to thousands you've spent on your forgeworld models are null and void, theres no rule that says you can use them'

thats basically the gist of this thread.
While i disagree (theres a whole flipping section about kitbashing) i'll just go back to lurking.

**FlingitNow**

Kindly Quote the RAW on what a "Citadel Miniature" is.

When you kindly quote RAW on what "the" means.

Also A Devastaor Box produced Plasma cannon citadel Miniature is not simply a citadel Miniature How exactly?

It is a Citadel miniature. Just not one with a tactical marines profile. It is a devastator marine, why? Because that's what GW tell us it is.

What rules do you have to back up that a citadel miniature of the common acceptance of a Plasma cannon armed space marine is only a devastator marine and not any plasma cannon armed space marine?

Citadel tell us what the miniature is. The rules are to use citadel miniatures and that each of those miniatures have their own profile.

Also which arms, legs, torsos and heads am I supposed to use together; If I get one wrong clearly by your definition I no longer have a "Citadel Miniature" right?

You have to construct the models as citadel tells you for it to be a citadel miniature. They create the miniatures and define what parts make the model and how.

Tell you what. Combine some space wolf bits with tactical marine bits, cast the resulting model and start selling copies of it. Lets see how GW's lawyers feel about your theory of it being your own design.

Infringement of IP is not the issue. If I take a Dyson and rebuild it to be held upside down. That is no longer a Dyson. However I try to mass produce that and sell it Dyson sue me and win. We are told to use citadel miniatures and that each miniature has its own profile. So we check what citadel says are its miniaturesand what those miniatures are. It really is as simple as that RAW. I'm not claiming that anyone should play like that EVER. I'm not claiming I won't allow converted models in games or that anyone should disallow converted or kitbashed models. However this rule gives you an out against anyone trying to pull MFA on you.

**juraigamer**

Good thing my counts as models are made from melted down GW sprue, otherwise I would be screwed.

**FlingitNow**

'Sorry guys, the hundreds to thousands you've spent on your forgeworld models are null and void, theres no rule that says you can use them'

Have you not bothered to read what people have said or is that simply a deliberate misrepresentation of what we've been saying in an attempt to discredit one side of the argument?

**kronk**

juraigamer wrote:
Good thing my counts as models are made from melted down GW sprue, otherwise I would be screwed.

Boom! Loop hole, achieved!

Spruecrons, to the rescue!

**Dakkamite**

Soladrin wrote:
I'm going to stab my eyes out and inhale some anthrax, brb.

I'll need to see the page number and quote permitting you to do that. Can't have you dying for advantage on us.

**DJGietzen**

"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow." Nice bit of information, but its not permission to use citadel miniatures to play the game, it presumes you already have that permission and is only informing you that those miniatures will be refereed to as models. "Both players will need an army of miniatures to enjoy a game." under 'What you will Need' does not require that the army be made of citadel miniatures. This is also not permission. You are never given permission to use any models in this game nor do the rules ever identify which citadel miniature you must use to represent each unit. There is no such thing as the appropriate citadel miniature and that you will be using citadel miniatures is a convenient assumption on the part of the rules.

**NeedleOfInquiry**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I've just noticed how the usual YMDC regulars have come nowhere near this thread; speaks volumes for its legitimacy.

There could be another reason.....

Not worth the effort...

**-Shrike-**

Dakkamite wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
I'm going to stab my eyes out and inhale some anthrax, brb.

I'll need to see the page number and quote permitting you to do that. Can't have you dying for advantage on us.

Have an exalt!
(Although the noun is "quotation", "quote" is the conjugation of the verb. Sorry.

)

Flingitnow: Please confirm this - If I take a space marine head from the assault squad, and put it on a tactical marine, is this now no longer a Citadel miniature, as per the RAW?

**FlingitNow**

DJGietzen wrote:
"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow." Nice bit of information, but its not permission to use citadel miniatures to play the game, it presumes you already have that permission and is only informing you that those miniatures will be refereed to as models. "Both players will need an army of miniatures to enjoy a game." under 'What you will Need' does not require that the army be made of citadel miniatures. This is also not permission. You are never given permission to use any models in this game nor do the rules ever identify which citadel miniature you must use to represent each unit. There is no such thing as the appropriate citadel miniature and that you will be using citadel miniatures is a convenient assumption on the part of the rules.

The rules do indeed define what an army is. That is permission for models to be citadel miniatures the army rules tell us what models we can use you need permission to use something other than a citadel miniature as a model if you want to. They tell us that all the models have profiles so again each model has a definition of what it is game terms. This has all already been posted so I assume you have just entered into the thread without having read it.

This is not a great idea. If you're posting for comedic effect like the sprue army you can get away with it because you're playing the fool. If you want to contribute please read the thread before posting it will help the discussion move forward rather than going in constant circles.

**happygolucky**

So Dakka is now arguing about Conversions being legal in RAW...

Even when its 100% Citadel...

Ok now I've lost faith in the Dakka community, if were arguing on what looks cool and what's MFA then it is a day to weep..

Doesn't GW encourage conversions through WD? I see plenty of them in the Blanchistu articles...

I laugh and cringe for this community I really do..