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I didnt think it was awful, I just think it fethed the whole story up for me, because I enjoyed the vagueness.
And the whole Vulkan thing really was silly in my book, I mean, what was the point?
Well, for one the revelation that the Emperor is also a perpetual creates tons of fun questions about the fact that he's rotting in the golden throne.
Two, it creates a ton of fun scenarios regarding Vulkan and his "disappearance" in the 40k universe.
I think both are a far reaching stroke of genius that adds a great deal of depth to both universes.
There's still plenty of vagueness for you to play with. It's just different, new vagueness.
In regards to the OP. Ignore the fact that Vulkan is a perpetual, and focus on the fact that Vulkan (and let's assume he wasn't lying) states that the only reason any of his brothers have stood a chance against him in combat is because he holds back so not to hurt them.
Here's the quote:
“Of all of us, father made me the strongest. Physically, I have no equal amongst my siblings. In the sparring cages I used to hold back… especially against you, Konrad.”
Excerpt From: Kyme, Nick. “Vulkan Lives.” Black Library, 2013-07. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Vulkan FTW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/27 03:25:40
I didnt think it was awful, I just think it fethed the whole story up for me, because I enjoyed the vagueness.
And the whole Vulkan thing really was silly in my book, I mean, what was the point?
Well, for one the revelation that the Emperor is also a perpetual creates tons of fun questions about the fact that he's rotting in the golden throne.
Two, it creates a ton of fun scenarios regarding Vulkan and his "disappearance" in the 40k universe.
I think both are a far reaching stroke of genius that adds a great deal of depth to both universes.
There's still plenty of vagueness for you to play with. It's just different, new vagueness.
In regards to the OP. Ignore the fact that Vulkan is a perpetual, and focus on the fact that Vulkan (and let's assume he wasn't lying) states that the only reason any of his brothers have stood a chance against him in combat is because he holds back so not to hurt them.
Here's the quote:
“Of all of us, father made me the strongest. Physically, I have no equal amongst my siblings. In the sparring cages I used to hold back… especially against you, Konrad.”
Excerpt From: Kyme, Nick. “Vulkan Lives.” Black Library, 2013-07. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Vulkan FTW.
Woah thats awesome I have never read that. Even if he is exaggerating, he gets up as soon as you kill him, I don't see how anyone else could win anyway!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
The same Guilliman who was completely suprised at Calth had his skull fractured by Lorgar and was manhandled by Angron ?
Yeah thats the one, did you read the whole post or just read "Gulliman" and then go ape gak?
I have read all of the books, I might have lost interest after the first five, but I've still read them, the whole post was about the fact that they are badly written and poorly thought out, and in reality Gulliman would be the best because he is the only one who actully does his job properly. His brothers are either bat gak crazy, or dont do their fething jobs at all. They are supposed to be soldiers and generals first and foremost, and he is the only one who actually throws himself into the job with gusto, ergo the rest of his brothers are like mentally deranged National Guardsman, and he is like a friggin Navy SEAL.
Plus, even if you cite individual incidents, like getting beat up by an individual primarch, they are wildly varying and ludicrous. One minute Guilliman is getting beaten up by a regular Space Marine, the next thing he kills 20 single handedly and unarmed. One minute he gets beat up by Lorgar, the next he holds his own against both Lorgar and Angron at the same time.
One minute Curze is kicking the Lions ass, the next the Lion is beating him up, the next he is happily fighting almost everyone all at once.
The point was that the fluff has become silly because there are too many books, too many angles, and too many writers, but if the whole thing was actually grounded in reality, Guilliman would be far and away the most useful soldier. The rest are either deranged, insane, emotionally crippled, or lazy and don't bother do any training or exercise.
Guilliman is the best planner regardintg strategy or tactics Horus the Lion The Khan match or surpass him
Regarding siege skills Perturabo and Dorn vastly surpass him
Regarding close combat skills Russ Angron Sanguinus Horus the khan Fulgrim vastly surpass him.
Woah thats awesome I have never read that. Even if he is exaggerating, he gets up as soon as you kill him, I don't see how anyone else could win anyway!"
Just use psychics to teleport him into a sun or a black hole. he can get up after each death for eternity and never be able to leave or retaliate. if magnus is still around when the star dies, Just switch him to a different one. magnus is easily aware of what eternals are and will know to do this. But again, he too is holding back and we have more than his words to go on there.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
Ok I'm starting to see this get off topic a bit, let me specify some things.
Yes this scenario is a duel. Not a contest of who is the better soldier, or leader, or who has a better legion. Just a duel, mono a mono. As stated it seems one day a primarch is much stronger than another but the next day its reversed, so i'm trying to sort out their power levels with this thread. Yes I'm saying Horus was the strongest because in this imaginary duel, each primarch is at their strongest. Horus's strongest was when he was juiced up on chaos and killed Sangy and nearly the Big E.
I think its safe to say that the contest is now between: Vulkan Sanguinius Magnus
I think something we need to decide is if Vulkan's Unsurpassed Endurance means anything in this duel or not
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/27 20:27:36
"We are the Red Sorcerers of Prospero, damned in the eyes of our fellows, and this is to be how our story ends, in betrayal and bloodshed. No...you may find it nobler to suffer your fate, but I will take arms against it." -Ahzek Ahriman
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons
All I'm hearing here is Magnus and his hex ways pew pew...right here we go...Russ kicked Magnus arse all over so that settles that
Angron beat Russ...so that settles that...
Girly man beat Alpharuius so that settles that
Horus beat Sangunius so that settles that
The Emperor n his Hex ways beat Horus so that settles that
Fulgrim...possessed or not still beat Ferrus...
Vulcan is invincible...indestructible...go figure here
Now that that's settled let's talk bout somat else lol
"You strive for victory. That is obvious. What may be less obvious is the nature of victory. There are circumstances in which you can destroy the enemy utterly, without loss to your own forces, and yet the victory may be his. In all situations, you must first decide on the nature of victory, and then take steps to secure it. Avoid the instinct of fight first and think later." ( Leman Russ )
81Northman wrote: All I'm hearing here is Magnus and his hex ways pew pew...right here we go...Russ kicked Magnus arse all over so that settles that
Magus was simultaneously whooping the ass of Russ, both his Wolves, and the entire remaining Space Wolf Legion and their mutant hordes. Then, Russ, reeling in pain, lashes out BLINDLY and just happens to strike Magnus' eye in the moment it was vulnerable, all while Tzeench looked on from the Warp/sky. Right, that settles that indeed.
Void__Dragon wrote: Lorgar confirms that Magnus lost the duel because he did not fully commit to it.
And Lorgar always speaks the truth right?
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
changerofways wrote: Ok I'm starting to see this get off topic a bit, let me specify some things.
Yes this scenario is a duel. Not a contest of who is the better soldier, or leader, or who has a better legion. Just a duel, mono a mono. As stated it seems one day a primarch is much stronger than another but the next day its reversed, so i'm trying to sort out their power levels with this thread.
Yes I'm saying Horus was the strongest because in this imaginary duel, each primarch is at their strongest. Horus's strongest was when he was juiced up on chaos and killed Sangy and nearly the Big E.
I think its safe to say that the contest is now between:
Vulkan
Sanguinius
Magnus
I think something we need to decide is if Vulkan's Unsurpassed Endurance means anything in this duel or not
Even so under those specific circumstances, Magnus has them all beat (beat as in has the ability to totally beat down) both of the others plus horus. Possibly, 2 or 3 at a time so long as he is able to use his psychic powers which the criteria allows.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
changerofways wrote: Ok I'm starting to see this get off topic a bit, let me specify some things.
Yes this scenario is a duel. Not a contest of who is the better soldier, or leader, or who has a better legion. Just a duel, mono a mono. As stated it seems one day a primarch is much stronger than another but the next day its reversed, so i'm trying to sort out their power levels with this thread. Yes I'm saying Horus was the strongest because in this imaginary duel, each primarch is at their strongest. Horus's strongest was when he was juiced up on chaos and killed Sangy and nearly the Big E.
I think its safe to say that the contest is now between: Vulkan Sanguinius Magnus
I think something we need to decide is if Vulkan's Unsurpassed Endurance means anything in this duel or not
Even so under those specific circumstances, Magnus has them all beat (beat as in has the ability to totally beat down) both of the others plus horus. Possibly, 2 or 3 at a time so long as he is able to use his psychic powers which the criteria allows.
Interesting...
Before I leave this thread to itself, Could someone provide me with some examples of Sanguiniuses power? I've read through his lex page but all I can really find is him killing a greater daemon of Khorne.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/28 04:13:48
"We are the Red Sorcerers of Prospero, damned in the eyes of our fellows, and this is to be how our story ends, in betrayal and bloodshed. No...you may find it nobler to suffer your fate, but I will take arms against it." -Ahzek Ahriman
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons
Not necessarily, but what reason had he to lie to Magnus? He was talking gak about him, not stroking his ego. Lucius also supports Magnus' claim as number one, as do Magnus' own feats of raw power. Like beating the gak out of Russ and his entire Legion. People like to conveniently forget that Magnus' attention wasn't centered on Russ, he was also attacking his Legion.
Agreed Amoras, though even without that Magnus could continuously kill Vulkan far better than my favorite Night Haunter. Basically Magnus could just endlessly mess him up with his mastery of the warp or veil etc... Vulkan might not be able to die in the traditional sense. But he can be forced out or temporarily killed, well forever.
Not necessarily, but what reason had he to lie to Magnus? He was talking gak about him, not stroking his ego. Lucius also supports Magnus' claim as number one, as do Magnus' own feats of raw power. Like beating the gak out of Russ and his entire Legion.
I don’t know if Lorgar had any specific reason to lie to Magnus. Though what I do know is that, in the past Lorgar always had something of a girl-crush on Magnus and despite Lorgar coming a long way from his days of being an immature boy, Lorgar continues to view the world and the people around him through rose-tinted glasses. Just take a look at how wrongly Lorgar misinterpreted Guilliman’s true feelings for him (no not those kinds of feelings!)
Anyway, I have to disagree with your statement that Magnus did not “fully commit” to the fight. My interpretation of the book A Thousand Sons leaves no doubt in my mind that, Magnus was in fact, fully 100% committed to win over Russ.
Void__Dragon wrote: People like to conveniently forget that Magnus' attention wasn't centered on Russ, he was also attacking his Legion.
People also like to conveniently forget that a couple of really diehard space wolfs managed to give Magnus a good beating in the Battle for the Fang. What is even more impressive is that they managed to do so without any backup from a Primarch or Blanks. Magnus is strong and has the potential to be the strongest, but he is not worthy of the title of the strongest Primarch, that spot is already taken by Horus.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Hah I can't believe how I didn’t notice it before now. Some of those names are surprisingly funny.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
so far (I havnt read all of the books yet) as i have seen, sanguinus has been shown to be a billy bad butt in close combat with some psyckic powers I think most of we have seen is character building and build up of the flaw. Although previously, I had thought the black rage was a result of the manner of his death.
I'm not so sure aboutangron. I'n terms actual personal fighting skill, I would say it is a matter of styles. It is mention in several places where it is considered that others could beat him. In terms of his berserk rage, I feel that he might be able to fight on despite a mortal wound (even for a primarch) and possibly kill his opponant (in a battle relying purely on physical skill. But if both opponants die, there is no winner and that would not invloved psychic strenght, toughness or shields or healing along with attacks that magnus could do.
Yes, magnus did not really commit to the battle for his home planet at all. He left his legion to do the fighting where they were just overwhelmed by numbers. He kinda stepped in at the last minute and said "oh crap, Too late to end it now without all of my legion dying round me. Better to retreat and let them rebuild their strength."
magnus is not stupid. When in the bastion of tyour brother, it is not wise to emasculate the brother or his chosen sons. especially when you need a favor.
Alpharious. LOL, he is the weak sister of the bunch that even lorgor can kick about with impunity. He could kick about BOTH of the bobsy twins together without breaking a sweat.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
EVIL INC wrote: so far (I havnt read all of the books yet) as i have seen, sanguinus has been shown to be a billy bad butt in close combat with some psyckic powers I think most of we have seen is character building and build up of the flaw. Although previously, I had thought the black rage was a result of the manner of his death.
I'm not so sure aboutangron. I'n terms actual personal fighting skill, I would say it is a matter of styles. It is mention in several places where it is considered that others could beat him. In terms of his berserk rage, I feel that he might be able to fight on despite a mortal wound (even for a primarch) and possibly kill his opponant (in a battle relying purely on physical skill. But if both opponants die, there is no winner and that would not invloved psychic strenght, toughness or shields or healing along with attacks that magnus could do.
Yes, magnus did not really commit to the battle for his home planet at all. He left his legion to do the fighting where they were just overwhelmed by numbers. He kinda stepped in at the last minute and said "oh crap, Too late to end it now without all of my legion dying round me. Better to retreat and let them rebuild their strength."
magnus is not stupid. When in the bastion of tyour brother, it is not wise to emasculate the brother or his chosen sons. especially when you need a favor.
Alpharious. LOL, he is the weak sister of the bunch that even lorgor can kick about with impunity. He could kick about BOTH of the bobsy twins together without breaking a sweat.
Not necessarily, but what reason had he to lie to Magnus? He was talking gak about him, not stroking his ego. Lucius also supports Magnus' claim as number one, as do Magnus' own feats of raw power. Like beating the gak out of Russ and his entire Legion.
I don’t know if Lorgar had any specific reason to lie to Magnus. Though what I do know is that, in the past Lorgar always had something of a girl-crush on Magnus and despite Lorgar coming a long way from his days of being an immature boy, Lorgar continues to view the world and the people around him through rose-tinted glasses. Just take a look at how wrongly Lorgar misinterpreted Guilliman’s true feelings for him (no not those kinds of feelings!)
Anyway, I have to disagree with your statement that Magnus did not “fully commit” to the fight. My interpretation of the book A Thousand Sons leaves no doubt in my mind that, Magnus was in fact, fully 100% committed to win over Russ.
Void__Dragon wrote: People like to conveniently forget that Magnus' attention wasn't centered on Russ, he was also attacking his Legion.
People also like to conveniently forget that a couple of really diehard space wolfs managed to give Magnus a good beating in the Battle for the Fang. What is even more impressive is that they managed to do so without any backup from a Primarch or Blanks. Magnus is strong and has the potential to be the strongest, but he is not worthy of the title of the strongest Primarch, that spot is already taken by Horus.
And in many books marines mow down chaos marines, IG mow over guardsman, marines wade into 1000000 cultist and 5 plague marines as a unit of 5 and kill all the cultists and marines whilst the guardsman and SoB manage to only kill dozens before being overrun. And isn't that the book where almost the entire TS assault a skeleton crew and lose? Also doesn't Markus walk around, slaughters wolves without a sweat, talks of how great wolves are, forgets he is a daemon PRI March, etc. Also might I remind you this is 40k where a daemon primarch of Nurgle gets slapped to the floor and then a name carved in before he runs around in the warp carving things in?
Not necessarily, but what reason had he to lie to Magnus? He was talking gak about him, not stroking his ego. Lucius also supports Magnus' claim as number one, as do Magnus' own feats of raw power. Like beating the gak out of Russ and his entire Legion.
I don’t know if Lorgar had any specific reason to lie to Magnus. Though what I do know is that, in the past Lorgar always had something of a girl-crush on Magnus and despite Lorgar coming a long way from his days of being an immature boy, Lorgar continues to view the world and the people around him through rose-tinted glasses. Just take a look at how wrongly Lorgar misinterpreted Guilliman’s true feelings for him (no not those kinds of feelings!)
Anyway, I have to disagree with your statement that Magnus did not “fully commit” to the fight. My interpretation of the book A Thousand Sons leaves no doubt in my mind that, Magnus was in fact, fully 100% committed to win over Russ.
In the conversation you yourself brought up, Lorgar berates Magnus for "straddling the fence" during the whole Prospero enterprise, which based on Magnus' reaction hits pretty close to home. But yeah, I think he was trying pretty hard to kill them all until Tzeench interfered (after all, it wouldn't do for the pawn to extricate himself out of trouble without asking Tzeench for help, that won't do at all).
People also like to conveniently forget that a couple of really diehard space wolfs managed to give Magnus a good beating in the Battle for the Fang. What is even more impressive is that they managed to do so without any backup from a Primarch or Blanks. Magnus is strong and has the potential to be the strongest, but he is not worthy of the title of the strongest Primarch, that spot is already taken by Horus.
That book is stupid and it was an ethereal form gained from possessing a Sorcerer, which kept constantly fading, and the narrative itself actually has Magnus forgetting he is a Primarch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/28 21:50:13
More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons 
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
2375
/ 
1690
WIP (1875)
1300
760
WIP (350)
WIP (150)