Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Redcruisair wrote:

I don’t know if Lorgar had any specific reason to lie to Magnus. Though what I do know is that, in the past Lorgar always had something of a girl-crush on Magnus and despite Lorgar coming a long way from his days of being an immature boy, Lorgar continues to view the world and the people around him through rose-tinted glasses. Just take a look at how wrongly Lorgar misinterpreted Guilliman’s true feelings for him (no not those kinds of feelings!)

Lorgar's viewpoints can change. Indeed, he was wrong about Guilliman, and he realizes that, just like how he no longer idolizes Magnus as he used to. Now he regularly condescends to him and insults him, despite admitting that Magnus is by far the more powerful of the two. And he is, even from the other side of the galaxy.

Anyway, I have to disagree with your statement that Magnus did not “fully commit” to the fight. My interpretation of the book A Thousand Sons leaves no doubt in my mind that, Magnus was in fact, fully 100% committed to win over Russ.

Even if you are of the mind that Magnus was mentally fully committed to fighting Russ, fact of the matter is that he was fighting him, while also fighting the Space Wolves and Custodians surrounding him, while also fighting Leman Russ' wolf companions, while also tearing apart the surface of Prospero, while also preparing a spell to teleport his sons across the galaxy to safety. His power was not fully devoted to Russ, and that is unarguable. This is ignoring the fact that Russ, apparently uniquely among the Primarchs, is very well-equipped to deal with psykers, due to honing his own powers toward redirecting them, and his armour being enchanted to do so.

Oh, and Magnus still had the upper hand for the majority of the fight. Russ' only real contribution was breaking Magnus' arm and cutting through the horn on Magnus' breastplate. Magnus destroyed Russ' armour, punched a hole in one of his hearts, ran him through with a telekinetic blade, and scalded him with psyflame, blinding and burning him. This is what incited the "lashing out" that managed to nick Magnus' eye.

People also like to conveniently forget that a couple of really diehard space wolfs managed to give Magnus a good beating in the Battle for the Fang. What is even more impressive is that they managed to do so without any backup from a Primarch or Blanks. Magnus is strong and has the potential to be the strongest, but he is not worthy of the title of the strongest Primarch, that spot is already taken by Horus.

A couple?

They were a Wolf Lord, his Wolf Guard, and the most powerful Rune Priest at the time, along with Bjorn the Fell-handed and the current Great Wolf.

All of course is ignoring that when Magnus, and I quote, "remembered that he was a Primarch", he easily killed or seriously wounded (In the case of Bjorn) all of them. Before that fight, he waded through the Space Wolves, not even using his sorcery for the most part. The scene was terrible. Oh, and Magnus' power had been slowly draining since the moment he was summoned.

Horus? Pft. Frickin' Lorgar could telepathically command that feeb with a glance. Magnus is more powerful than Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy.

I don't know why saying Magnus is the most powerful is such a controversial answer. All of the Primarchs are vastly skilled and powerful superhuman warriors, to varying extents. In fact, Magnus is cited as the largest, and one of the strongest, so he is hardly a feeb in hand to hand. but only Magnus (And later maybe Lorgar) is an incredibly powerful alpha plus psyker short of only his father.

Only Horus backed by Chaos is more powerful.

At the strongest point in their lives only Horus can win. Possibly Lorgar and definitely could possibly be a threat, with their Alpha+ and Alpha+++ status respectively. But as they draw power from the Warp, under the control of the Gods, and Horus at his strongest part was basically possessed by them all, Horus is gonna kick their asses round the galaxy and back again for a warmup.

Sorry for the late reply guys. Lately I’ve been very busy with work and haven’t had the time to reply before know.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

despite admitting that Magnus is by far the more powerful of the two. And he is, even from the other side of the galaxy.

This really only matter if you buy into the whole “speaking through warp projection diminishes your power considerably” thing, which I don’t buy into, lmao.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Even if you are of the mind that Magnus was mentally fully committed to fighting Russ, fact of the matter is that he was fighting him, while also fighting the Space Wolves and Custodians surrounding him, while also fighting Leman Russ' wolf companions, while also tearing apart the surface of Prospero, while also preparing a spell to teleport his sons across the galaxy to safety. His power was not fully devoted to Russ, and that is unarguable. This is ignoring the fact that Russ, apparently uniquely among the Primarchs, is very well-equipped to deal with psykers, due to honing his own powers toward redirecting them, and his armour being enchanted to do so.

The important thing to note about Magnus combat powers is that his ability to cast spells isn’t infinite, nor is it without its risks. In Thousand Sons we saw him attempting to one-shot an ancient Eldar Titan. His attempt was successful, but the strain from preforming the spell left him completely knocked-out cold and wide open to the second Eldar titan’s attack. Magnus only survived the whole ordeal because one of his captains managed to save him in the last second.

Now we have two cases in the same book, where the fluff contradicts each other on the nature of Magnus abilities. My example puts a limit on how much Magnus can utilise his abilities before running dry on psyker juice. Your example on the other hand puts all such limitations on Magnus abilities to the wind.

Considering the fact that all other examples in the fluff portrays Magnus strength and weakness in the same light as my own example, I think it’s safe to conclude that the power-level of a more consistent written Magnus, is probably somewhere along of the lines of what we have seen in the beginning of A Thousand Sons and the Battle for the Fang books.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh, and Magnus still had the upper hand for the majority of the fight. Russ' only real contribution was breaking Magnus' arm and cutting through the horn on Magnus' breastplate. Magnus destroyed Russ' armour, punched a hole in one of his hearts, ran him through with a telekinetic blade, and scalded him with psyflame, blinding and burning him. This is what incited the "lashing out" that managed to nick Magnus' eye.

This basically just confirms to us that, Magnus pretty much lost the battle because he didn’t choose to use the right psychic discipline. Everyone knows Divination is rad and Pyromancy is total *censored*.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A couple?

They were a Wolf Lord, his Wolf Guard, and the most powerful Rune Priest at the time, along with Bjorn the Fell-handed and the current Great Wolf.

All of course is ignoring that when Magnus, and I quote, "remembered that he was a Primarch", he easily killed or seriously wounded (In the case of Bjorn) all of them. Before that fight, he waded through the Space Wolves, not even using his sorcery for the most part. The scene was terrible. Oh, and Magnus' power had been slowly draining since the moment he was summoned.

Yeah I freely admit that refereeing to them as “a couple of wolves,” is a somewhat misleading description, especially considering some of those SW were old war heroes. But to be honest, did it really matter how I described them? A hundred space wolf defenders is just water under the bridge anyway compared to the threat Magnus faced upon Prospero.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Horus? Pft. Frickin' Lorgar could telepathically command that feeb with a glance. Magnus is more powerful than Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy.

I don't know why saying Magnus is the most powerful is such a controversial answer. All of the Primarchs are vastly skilled and powerful superhuman warriors, to varying extents. In fact, Magnus is cited as the largest, and one of the strongest, so he is hardly a feeb in hand to hand. but only Magnus (And later maybe Lorgar) is an incredibly powerful alpha plus psyker short of only his father.

Only Horus backed by Chaos is more powerful.

Horus has always been described in the fluff as being the best and brightest amongst his brothers, and JSYK, this also includes the pre-corrupted Horus. I admit that this is a statement open for all kinds of different interpretations, but it is also statement that can be found in all corners of the fluff. From the Black Legion background material, to the Horus Heresy: Collective Visions, to the Horus Heresy series, all of those sources name Horus as the greatest and mightiest of all the Primarchs.

Pretty much every HH era book you read talk about the fall of horus resulting in humanity losing its brightest son, best and brightest etc, so in my opinion its unequivocal that Horus is the strongest in terms of being a military genius and in a one on one primarch off. The two that are written to nearly match him are Angron and Sanguinius. Magnus' psychic abilities does not guarantee him anything in a fight against superhumans. Sure in the oldest fluff the emperor himself was being choked to death by an orc before horus saved him. If an ork can overcome the Emperors psychic strength to best him in cmobat I dont believe its beyond the realms of possibility (taking into account this is a fictional universe of course ) that primarchs would have some way of dealing with magnus

 cincydooley wrote:

“Of all of us, father made me the strongest. Physically, I have no equal amongst my siblings. In the sparring cages I used to hold back… especially against you, Konrad.”

Excerpt From: Kyme, Nick. “Vulkan Lives.” Black Library, 2013-07. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Vulkan FTW.

Does that mean that Vulkan could have beaten someone like Angron, who in my opinion was nigh on unstoppable in combat?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Lorgar's viewpoints can change. Indeed, he was wrong about Guilliman, and he realizes that, just like how he no longer idolizes Magnus as he used to. Now he regularly condescends to him and insults him, despite admitting that Magnus is by far the more powerful of the two. And he is, even from the other side of the galaxy.

You can't blame Lorgar for being upset with his brother. He looked up to him the most, and shared his innermost doubts, particularly about how there is a deeper truth in the universe than just conquest. Magnus actively discouraged him from investigating this feeling, and steered him clear from the Warp, when he knew all along that the "answer" Lorgar was looking for was there. In fact, Magnus is intrinsically tied to one of those powers, something Lorgar was able to instantly see with his new powers over daemons, yet he remains in denial. The powerful and wise brother Lorgar idolized was lying to him AND himself, equivocated until he became nothing more than a shadow and a puppet, and is STILL straddling the fence and just feeling sorry for himself.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:

The important thing to note about Magnus combat powers is that his ability to cast spells isn’t infinite, nor is it without its risks. In Thousand Sons we saw him attempting to one-shot an ancient Eldar Titan. His attempt was successful, but the strain from preforming the spell left him completely knocked-out cold and wide open to the second Eldar titan’s attack. Magnus only survived the whole ordeal because one of his captains managed to save him in the last second.

You can keep making your little jokes and snarky comments, but it just means you've lost the debate and are trying to save face by acting the clown. But in all your rambling nonsense, you did manage to bring up a good example. Magnus one-shotted an acient uber Eldar Titan. A warhound almost killed Angron and Lorgar both.

 Omegus wrote:
You can keep making your little jokes and snarky comments, but it just means you've lost the debate and are trying to save face by acting the clown. But in all your rambling nonsense, you did manage to bring up a good example. Magnus one-shotted an acient uber Eldar Titan. A warhound almost killed Angron and Lorgar both.

I honestly don’t even know where to begin with you Omegus. Everything was going just fine with the discussion, until you decided to come barging in here and write this… complete utter garbage.

If you want to have a nice civilized discussion with me, then that’s fine, please feel free to do so.

However, speak to me again in such an insufferable way and I’ll have you put on ignore for good. The choice is yours.

I know I'm late to the party here, but I really don't even see how this is a question. Magnus is clearly the most powerful by a long shot in my eyes. He only "lost" to Russ because he was doing a million other things at the time. Not to mention he was pretty much surrounded by psychic blanks. He could have easily crushed Russ if it were a 1 on 1 fight.

I'm going to go with the Primarchs of the 2nd and/or 11th Legions. They either:

1) Did something SO fething bad that they got themselves scrubbed from history altogether (something not even Horus & co. merited), or;

2) Did/are up to something so cool that it needs to be kept secret from the entire Imperium.

Not knowing much about either of 'em does make it hard to compare them to any of the known primarchs, but the fact that they've been removed from all records does imply a certain level of power (one way or the other) & makes them worth keeping an eye on.

I get the feeling that GW were originally keeping them in reserve for their own or fan-based story-telling purposes. If they ever had a plan for one/both being revealed, its a shame that it seems it'll never see the light of day.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Horus isn't even close to the strongest Primarch. He was the Emperor's favorite, but only gained strength after being made the partial avatar of all four gods of Chaos. Even then, Magnus would probably walk all over him.

This is so wrong it's funny...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann Fine wrote:
Pretty much every HH era book you read talk about the fall of horus resulting in humanity losing its brightest son, best and brightest etc, so in my opinion its unequivocal that Horus is the strongest in terms of being a military genius and in a one on one primarch off. The two that are written to nearly match him are Angron and Sanguinius. Magnus' psychic abilities does not guarantee him anything in a fight against superhumans. Sure in the oldest fluff the emperor himself was being choked to death by an orc before horus saved him. If an ork can overcome the Emperors psychic strength to best him in cmobat I dont believe its beyond the realms of possibility (taking into account this is a fictional universe of course ) that primarchs would have some way of dealing with magnus

This pretty much echoes exactly what I think.
Void Dragon, we all know that Magnus is extremely powerful and obviously a contender for the top spot but the amount of citations about his strength pale compared to the number of times Horus is cited as the most powerful. Magnus has moments where his immense power is showcased but many of these occasions are open to interpretation. Horus is most definitely the most powerful

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Horus isn't even close to the strongest Primarch. He was the Emperor's favorite, but only gained strength after being made the partial avatar of all four gods of Chaos. Even then, Magnus would probably walk all over him.

This is so wrong it's funny...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann Fine wrote:
Pretty much every HH era book you read talk about the fall of horus resulting in humanity losing its brightest son, best and brightest etc, so in my opinion its unequivocal that Horus is the strongest in terms of being a military genius and in a one on one primarch off. The two that are written to nearly match him are Angron and Sanguinius. Magnus' psychic abilities does not guarantee him anything in a fight against superhumans. Sure in the oldest fluff the emperor himself was being choked to death by an orc before horus saved him. If an ork can overcome the Emperors psychic strength to best him in cmobat I dont believe its beyond the realms of possibility (taking into account this is a fictional universe of course ) that primarchs would have some way of dealing with magnus

This pretty much echoes exactly what I think.
Void Dragon, we all know that Magnus is extremely powerful and obviously a contender for the top spot but the amount of citations about his strength pale compared to the number of times Horus is cited as the most powerful. Magnus has moments where his immense power is showcased but many of these occasions are open to interpretation. Horus is most definitely the most powerful

XXXX

I second the notion that Horus was the man. Totally not biased here .

Anyway, I think that Magnus is a strong contender for the 2nd place.

 Redcruisair wrote:


This really only matter if you buy into the whole “speaking through warp projection diminishes your power considerably” thing, which I don’t buy into, lmao.

I don't care what you buy into, to be perfectly honest. If you wish to be wrong, that is entirely your own prerogative, but Aurelian makes it clear that it requires a considerable amount of power to maintain his projection from the other side of the galaxy.

The important thing to note about Magnus combat powers is that his ability to cast spells isn’t infinite, nor is it without its risks. In Thousand Sons we saw him attempting to one-shot an ancient Eldar Titan. His attempt was successful, but the strain from preforming the spell left him completely knocked-out cold and wide open to the second Eldar titan’s attack. Magnus only survived the whole ordeal because one of his captains managed to save him in the last second.

Now we have two cases in the same book, where the fluff contradicts each other on the nature of Magnus abilities. My example puts a limit on how much Magnus can utilise his abilities before running dry on psyker juice. Your example on the other hand puts all such limitations on Magnus abilities to the wind.

Considering the fact that all other examples in the fluff portrays Magnus strength and weakness in the same light as my own example, I think it’s safe to conclude that the power-level of a more consistent written Magnus, is probably somewhere along of the lines of what we have seen in the beginning of A Thousand Sons and the Battle for the Fang books.

So you are of the mind that Magnus fighting two (and destroying one) Eldar Titans that each dwarf a Warhound is the equivalent to being beaten up by a Dreadnought and some Space Wolves?

How... Telling. I'll also note that Magnus was not so drained that he couldn't go into the Warp immediately afterwards and destroy the plague that had corrupted that world.

This basically just confirms to us that, Magnus pretty much lost the battle because he didn’t choose to use the right psychic discipline. Everyone knows Divination is rad and Pyromancy is total *censored*.

So do you have an actual rebuttal, or just a joke?

Yeah I freely admit that refereeing to them as “a couple of wolves,” is a somewhat misleading description, especially considering some of those SW were old war heroes. But to be honest, did it really matter how I described them? A hundred space wolf defenders is just water under the bridge anyway compared to the threat Magnus faced upon Prospero.

Which is partly why it is bad writing. The other part is how the story had Magnus easily kill them all when he remembered he was a Primarch, lol, what a crock of gak.

Horus has always been described in the fluff as being the best and brightest amongst his brothers, and JSYK, this also includes the pre-corrupted Horus. I admit that this is a statement open for all kinds of different interpretations, but it is also statement that can be found in all corners of the fluff. From the Black Legion background material, to the Horus Heresy: Collective Visions, to the Horus Heresy series, all of those sources name Horus as the greatest and mightiest of all the Primarchs.

Horus was among the best... Overall. I'd even say that he probably is one of the best duelists.

But in terms of sheer power? No. Both Lorgar and especially Magnus are demonstrably more powerful. Even Horus knows it. You can't really get around the whole "was made into a nancy bitch telepathically by Lorgar" part, either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:

I honestly don’t even know where to begin with you Omegus. Everything was going just fine with the discussion, until you decided to come barging in here and write this… complete utter garbage.

If you want to have a nice civilized discussion with me, then that’s fine, please feel free to do so.

However, speak to me again in such an insufferable way and I’ll have you put on ignore for good. The choice is yours.

His point is valid.

Magnus destroys Emperors, Lorgar and Angron have trouble with Warhounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

Void Dragon, we all know that Magnus is extremely powerful and obviously a contender for the top spot but the amount of citations about his strength pale compared to the number of times Horus is cited as the most powerful. Magnus has moments where his immense power is showcased but many of these occasions are open to interpretation. Horus is most definitely the most powerful.

Horus was casually dominated by the mental prowess of Lorgar.

Show me those statements that claim Horus is the most powerful. At best you can get me some quotes citing his skill as a warrior.

You honestly need sources that say Horus is the greatest among the primarchs? Read any HH book that features him maybe. I'm not citing every source that says this.
Maybe if you we're not so set on Magnus being the most powerful then you would notice the validity of others arguments. Anyway I'm leaving this argument, they always devolve into the same debate which ends up as a battle of conflicting opinions.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:
You honestly need sources that say Horus is the greatest among the primarchs? Read any HH book that features him maybe. I'm not citing every source that says this.
Maybe if you we're not so set on Magnus being the most powerful then you would notice the validity of others arguments. Anyway I'm leaving this argument, they always devolve into the same debate which ends up as a battle of conflicting opinions.

XXXX

Pot calling the kettle black again, I see.

GoingtoHell wrote:
You honestly need sources that say Horus is the greatest among the primarchs? Read any HH book that features him maybe. I'm not citing every source that says this.
Maybe if you we're not so set on Magnus being the most powerful then you would notice the validity of others arguments. Anyway I'm leaving this argument, they always devolve into the same debate which ends up as a battle of conflicting opinions.

XXXX

Why do people on this site get so upset when someone asks them to prove something they claimed?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:
You honestly need sources that say Horus is the greatest among the primarchs? Read any HH book that features him maybe. I'm not citing every source that says this.
Maybe if you we're not so set on Magnus being the most powerful then you would notice the validity of others arguments. Anyway I'm leaving this argument, they always devolve into the same debate which ends up as a battle of conflicting opinions.

XXXX

Why do people on this site get so upset when someone asks them to prove something they claimed?

Firstly explain to me how I'm getting upset. Secondly it's because it takes a lot of effort and I can't be bothered.

XXXX

 Void__Dragon wrote:


I don't care what you buy into, to be perfectly honest. If you wish to be wrong, that is entirely your own prerogative, but Aurelian makes it clear that it requires a considerable amount of power to maintain his projection from the other side of the galaxy.

I don’t want to be wrong lol. I just haven’t had the opportunity to read Aurelian yet, so thank you for enlighten me on the subject of warp projections.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
So you are of the mind that Magnus fighting two (and destroying one) Eldar Titans that each dwarf a Warhound is the equivalent to being beaten up by a Dreadnought and some Space Wolves?

No.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
How... Telling. I'll also note that Magnus was not so drained that he couldn't go into the Warp immediately afterwards and destroy the plague that had corrupted that world.

He was incapable of shielding himself from the second blast. Even a single moment of hesitation like that can mean death on the battlefield.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
So do you have an actual rebuttal, or just a joke?

The latter.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Which is partly why it is bad writing. The other part is how the story had Magnus easily kill them all when he remembered he was a Primarch, lol, what a crock of gak.

Whatever you think the book is badly written or not is irrelevant. It is just as a valid source as any other HH book out there, so deal with it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Horus was among the best... Overall. I'd even say that he probably is one of the best duelists.

Horus was the best Primarch and here is why:

Black Legion IA: "Horus, first and greatest of all the Primarchs."
The Lightning Tower: "Dorn knew that Horus was the greatest of them, which made him the gravest foe. Could any one of them hope to best Lupercal on the field of war?"
Codex: Space Wolves: "Horus was the most powerful of all the Primarchs."
A Thousand Sons: "Like squabbling brothers, each of the Primarchs vied for a place at their father's side, but only one was ever good enough to fight alongside the saviour of humanity: Horus."

 Void__Dragon wrote:
But in terms of sheer power? No. Both Lorgar and especially Magnus are demonstrably more powerful.

Magnus probably possess the most destructive potential of all the Primarchs, but that hardly seems to matter in a Primarch duel, or at least when you are fighting Russ that is.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
You can't really get around the whole "was made into a nancy bitch telepathically by Lorgar" part, either.

This seems much exaggerated. Do you have a source and a quote for that?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
His point is valid.

No his comment was pure hyperbole and childish insults.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Magnus destroys Emperors, Lorgar and Angron have trouble with Warhounds.

Your argument lacks context. First off, those two Primarchs never actually fought against the titan to begin with. Lorgar’s back was turned to the titan when it shot at him, and Angron only prevented it from squashing his brother under its foot.

It also isn’t fair comparison when you consider the state Angron was in after being buried fifty feet under a pile of rubble, while Magnus on the other hand was in a perfect condition and had the support of numerous TS and SW when he faced off against his titan opponent.

Also, are titan killing powers the only way for you to measure who of the Primarchs are the most powerful? If so, then you should probably put possessed Fulgrim above Magnus, considering how he in Reflection Cracked took down a titan without even breaking a sweat.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
You can keep making your little jokes and snarky comments, but it just means you've lost the debate and are trying to save face by acting the clown. But in all your rambling nonsense, you did manage to bring up a good example. Magnus one-shotted an acient uber Eldar Titan. A warhound almost killed Angron and Lorgar both.

I honestly don’t even know where to begin with you Omegus. Everything was going just fine with the discussion, until you decided to come barging in here and write this… complete utter garbage.


If you want to have a nice civilized discussion with me, then that’s fine, please feel free to do so.

However, speak to me again in such an insufferable way and I’ll have you put on ignore for good. The choice is yours.

Lol, and here comes the fake outrage, the next bastion of someone who's cornered. I really could not care less if you ignore me, as VoidDragon said, it's your prerogative to remain ignorant. You even admit later that all you have for "arguments" is silly jokes. /shrug

Especially since you haven't read most of the source material (Lorgar pushed Horus and Fulgrim around in Aurellian), or have your own wacky recollection of events (Lorgar actively faced thr Warhound and tried to tank its blasts, but the second shot shattered his kine shield and melted half his face off.

 Omegus wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
You can keep making your little jokes and snarky comments, but it just means you've lost the debate and are trying to save face by acting the clown. But in all your rambling nonsense, you did manage to bring up a good example. Magnus one-shotted an acient uber Eldar Titan. A warhound almost killed Angron and Lorgar both.

I honestly don’t even know where to begin with you Omegus. Everything was going just fine with the discussion, until you decided to come barging in here and write this… complete utter garbage.


If you want to have a nice civilized discussion with me, then that’s fine, please feel free to do so.

However, speak to me again in such an insufferable way and I’ll have you put on ignore for good. The choice is yours.

Lol, and here comes the fake outrage, the next bastion of someone who's cornered. I really could not care less if you ignore me, as VoidDragon said, it's your prerogative to remain ignorant. You even admit later that all you have for "arguments" is silly jokes. /shrug

Especially since you haven't read most of the source material (Lorgar pushed Horus and Fulgrim around in Aurellian), or have your own wacky recollection of events (Lorgar actively faced thr Warhound and tried to tank its blasts, but the second shot shattered his kine shield and melted half his face off.

Lorgar didn't really push them around though did he? He got Horus to take his hand of his armour and attacked Fulgrom who did not fight back. Wow...

XXXX

 Orblivion wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
So i've seen an older thread on this but it was mostly a disorganized mess of angry people.

If the primarchs were to fight each other one on one, at full strength, who would be the strongest duelist?

obviously primarchs like the alpha legions' would not do well here because their strengths are other places than fighting, like tactics, but this is all about physical and magical strength and endurance.

Who is the king?

This will happen again. Just warning you.

Just wanted to throw this in there. Prescience.

There's just an overall problem with this word/comparison, and so many others of these types. "Powerful". That means different things to different people. When Dorn says it, he could be referring to martial ability as well as overall influence/"get s*** done". When I read VD's comments, I read "sheer ability to unleash vast energy/control".

This stuff is subjective, through someone's lens. Take it easy folks. You could argue powerful in terms of single combat and call Fulgrim numero uno by sheer primarch body count.

I voted Magnus anyway, but on the opposite side of the "Magnus mind > matter", it has to be telling that all the primarchs always mention Horus in there "this dude's a problem" short list. He wasn't all hype.

Also, Horus isn't impressive in the least. He was the Emperor's favorite, but this doesn't make him the strongest. His life was threatened by the Interex.

LightKing wrote:

godking wrote:
Angron and Sanguinus are the only two primarchs who everybody agrees could have taken Horus in a duel.

Magnus psyker abiliteis vastly outstrip those of Horus though.

is their a consensus that if the Heresy never happened....would Magnus of surpassed the Emperor in psychic ability.. if he didn't let Horus get to him.....

i always find it odd, that the Emperor's favorite was Horus, but he wanted Magnus to sit on the golden throne after him

WTF, no. The throne was constructed for Magnus, Magnus was a psyker, Horus was not, no Primarch can match the Emperor.

As for the whole mess of angry people prediction, so far it's just one guy faking outrage because he got schooled.

Reported some forum rule breaking post/s here.

GoingtoHell wrote: Lorgar didn't really push them around though did he? He got Horus to take his hand of his armour and attacked Fulgrom who did not fight back. Wow...

XXXX

The formerly meekest Primarch mentally dominated the Warmaster in his uber "I ignore all psychic things on a 4+" armor and Horus walked on eggshells around him the rest of the book. The formerly weakest Primarch literally curbstomped one of the premiere warriors among the Primarchs, and had daemon-Fulgrim literally cowering in the corner and begging for mercy.

Of course, I attribute a lot of Lorgar's feats to the additional influence over all things touched by Chaos granted to him by the Gods (and then passed on to the Legion).

 Omegus wrote:

LightKing wrote:

godking wrote:
Angron and Sanguinus are the only two primarchs who everybody agrees could have taken Horus in a duel.

Magnus psyker abiliteis vastly outstrip those of Horus though.

is their a consensus that if the Heresy never happened....would Magnus of surpassed the Emperor in psychic ability.. if he didn't let Horus get to him.....

i always find it odd, that the Emperor's favorite was Horus, but he wanted Magnus to sit on the golden throne after him

WTF, no. The throne was constructed for Magnus, Magnus was a psyker, Horus was not, no Primarch can match the Emperor.

As for the whole mess of angry people prediction, so far it's just one guy faking outrage because he got schooled.

No Primarch will and ever has matched the Emperor in psychic ability. He is vastly superior in that regard. Physically corrupted Horus may have actually been the stronger however.

I agree, my pet theory is that the death of Oll the Perpetual (Sensei?) gave the Big E the extra bit of push he needed to kill Horus. I don't buy the sentimentality legend, it's out of character for the Emperor and he knew how it would turn out anyway.

Please note that the primary rule of DakkaDakka is to be polite.

I wish there was a way for the OP of a thread to remove the thread. The posts here have been incredibly helpful but all of my questions were answered by page 3, and now, as per everyones predictions, this thread has devolved...

 Redcruisair wrote:

I don’t want to be wrong lol. I just haven’t had the opportunity to read Aurelian yet, so thank you for enlighten me on the subject of warp projections.

Hey man you're welcome.

He was incapable of shielding himself from the second blast. Even a single moment of hesitation like that can mean death on the battlefield.

No Primarch save, well, Magnus pre-Heresy can bring the kind of power that necessitated that much expenditure of might to bear.

Whatever you think the book is badly written or not is irrelevant. It is just as a valid source as any other HH book out there, so deal with it.

It is, and you must deal with the fact that, as per the text, when Magnus actually bothered to use his power, he dominated everyone, both physically and psychically.

Horus was the best Primarch and here is why:

Black Legion IA: "Horus, first and greatest of all the Primarchs."
The Lightning Tower: "Dorn knew that Horus was the greatest of them, which made him the gravest foe. Could any one of them hope to best Lupercal on the field of war?"
Codex: Space Wolves: "Horus was the most powerful of all the Primarchs."
A Thousand Sons: "Like squabbling brothers, each of the Primarchs vied for a place at their father's side, but only one was ever good enough to fight alongside the saviour of humanity: Horus."

All vague statements that may indeed be true in an overall sense. He had a large legion, was a skilled combatant, a very competent commander, as well as a diplomat supreme.

Magnus probably possess the most destructive potential of all the Primarchs, but that hardly seems to matter in a Primarch duel, or at least when you are fighting Russ that is.

I suppose it wouldn't, when he's also fighting his brother's entire Legion and bringing that power to bear on the planet they're fighting on.

This seems much exaggerated. Do you have a source and a quote for that?

It is also from Aurelian. Horus grabs Lorgar by the shoulder, and Lorgar telepathically commands him to release him with a stern glance. Horus, clad in full gear and trying to resist, complies, and is quite shaken up about it.

No his comment was pure hyperbole and childish insults.

Nah.

Your argument lacks context. First off, those two Primarchs never actually fought against the titan to begin with. Lorgar’s back was turned to the titan when it shot at him, and Angron only prevented it from squashing his brother under its foot.

Untrue, Lorgar faced it, extending his hand to defend against it with a kine shield.

And, admittedly, Lorgar did destroy a single Warhound.

It also isn’t fair comparison when you consider the state Angron was in after being buried fifty feet under a pile of rubble, while Magnus on the other hand was in a perfect condition and had the support of numerous TS and SW when he faced off against his titan opponent.

Also, are titan killing powers the only way for you to measure who of the Primarchs are the most powerful? If so, then you should probably put possessed Fulgrim above Magnus, considering how he in Reflection Cracked took down a titan without even breaking a sweat.

Angron and Lorgar also had the support of their allies. It is sort of the only reason they survived.

And no, but that's a pretty good indication.

Lol, Fulgrim? Funnily enough, that act drew an explicit comparison to Magnus from Lucius.

The Titan Fulgrim destroyed was considerably less powerful, though. It also ignores when Magnus did similarly to a massive Gargant, creating a psyflame hurricane that incinerated it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hey man you're welcome.

The pleasure is all mine.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No Primarch save, well, Magnus pre-Heresy can bring the kind of power that necessitated that much expenditure of might to bear.

I’m not sure I’m following you on this one. Are you denying the fact that, Magnus got saved by one of his captains? Or are you arguing that another Primarch won’t have any protection against the spells Magnus wields?

I can provide a source for the former one. If it’s the latter you are meaning then, well, I think that one is debatable too.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It is, and you must deal with the fact that, as per the text, when Magnus actually bothered to use his power, he dominated everyone, both physically and psychically.

It goes both ways Void_Dragon.

It’s true that a motivated Magnus can with his powers easily dictate the outcome of a war, perhaps more so than any other Primarch. However, it is also true that when Magnus does not “bother,” as you so imaginatively put it, to give his all in a fight, then he receives a beat-down by a bunch of space wolves. And this humorously enough, makes him the first and only Primarch, (a daemon Primarch no less, tsk tsk) to ever have received a beating from such a lowly opponent in a straight up fight.

So to use you own words. This is a fact, and you must deal with the fact that, as per the text, Magnus has the lowest performance of all the primarchs written about to date, and as such, we can expect Magnus to suck *** just as much as he kicks it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
All vague statements that may indeed be true in an overall sense. He had a large legion, was a skilled combatant, a very competent commander, as well as a diplomat supreme.

Well we can agree on these sort of things tend to be a bit muddy with Horus. These numerous sources all agree on Horus being the top dog, yet sadly, none of them gives us any clear reasons as to why he is the top dog. It’s a moronic case of “tell” and not “show”.

I can’t say agree with the thought of Horus only being the number one Primarch because he is so well-rounded in his skills, but I still acknowledge it as a sound argument, given what little we know about Horus so far.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I suppose it wouldn't, when he's also fighting his brother's entire Legion and bringing that power to bear on the planet they're fighting on.

Hmm I only remember Magnus killing a few scrubs, who foolishly attempted to close in on him and Russ. It seems to me like you are over exaggerating again. Though admittedly, I may just not recall the battle correctly either.

Anyway, if Magnus could kill Russ the same way he destroyed the Eldar titan, then he would have done so at the beginning of their fight, and not risk the outcome of the war on a multitasking exercise with Russ.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It is also from Aurelian. Horus grabs Lorgar by the shoulder, and Lorgar telepathically commands him to release him with a stern glance. Horus, clad in full gear and trying to resist, complies, and is quite shaken up about it.

Sounds like Horus got overconfident and underestimated Lorgar’s growth as a Primarch, good for him.

Lorgar managed to catch Horus with his pants down, and thoroughly embarrass him. Very funny, but no big whoop.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Nah.

Insults tend not to be very constructive in debates. This shouldn’t come as a surprise to you. Also, this will be the last time we speak of it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Untrue, Lorgar faced it, extending his hand to defend against it with a kine shield.

And it held firm against the first plasma blast, but broke under the second one. Wait a second… I think I get now. This just in guys! Magnus is the unrivalled king of kine shields, and the de facto #1 primarch Wohoo!

I‘m kidding.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And, admittedly, Lorgar did destroy a single Warhound.

With great ease I might add. Again titan smashing prowess is nothing new in the hood. Plenty of Primarchs have done so already, either with the sword or the mind.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Angron and Lorgar also had the support of their allies. It is sort of the only reason they survived.

Put a healthy Lorgar without the 3rd degree plasama burns against a titan of any class lower than the Emperor type, and he too would destroy it willy nilly. The same goes for Angron.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And no, but that's a pretty good indication.

It really isn’t. Are you really going to argue, that no other Primarch other than Magnus could take down things bigger than a warhound titan?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Lol, Fulgrim? Funnily enough, that act drew an explicit comparison to Magnus from Lucius.

Ugh pure rubbish, but you are entitled to your own opinion I guess. *grumble grumble*