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 Flinty wrote:
The LRBT was also a mainstay of Epic from quite early on before it got introduced into 40k. The earliest design was taken from WW1 tanks and this has been continued through the ages and model scales. Siege Tanks are self propelled guns, more than tanks.

Yep. And I think the 28mm miniature was first released in 1993-1994. That's five years before Starcraft.

6mm versions of the Russ were probably available earlier on.

So much misinformation. StarCraft was never going to be a 40k game, it was going to be a star wars game. Blizzard and gw never had any interaction with each other. I'm not sure if you can still find actual hard proof of blizzard trying, getting and then loseing the rights to make said star wars game since its been so long, However you can still find the interviews and mentions by blizzards co founders about said deal, and also see mention of it in a number of the older starcraft book anthology's. Did blizzard take inspiration for there games from gw and a ton of other sources? Yes. That's about it.

The only similarities with 40k are the Terran Marines armors, and the Zerg. The story, the characters and the setting are in no way similar with 40k.

madtankbloke wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Necrons are not ripped off the terminators.

Simply because Terminator isn't an original idea.

The Terminator robots going mad and attacking their creators is simply the old "necromancer raises zombies and loses control" plot recycled IN SPACE.

The aesthetics for the Necron warriors at least are inspired by the Terminator movie, but the back story is completely different.

I dont think so...Terminators and Necrons are both humanoid skeleton robots. The similarity ends there.Terminators are clearly designed after humans, and are more mechanical than skeletal (if you look at pictures of them, aside from the heads, they dont really follow the human skeletal framework too closely. Necrons on the other hand, are clearly NOT based on humans but DO follow a skeletal framework (they have ribs a clear spine, pelvis, etc.). The only thing that inspired Necrons were Tomb Kings (and whatever it is that inspired Tomb Kings).

orkybenji wrote:
anyone here ever heard of Dune, Judge Dredd, or 2000 AD? 40k is like anything else, it borrows heavily and lends heavily to others.

Yeah, Arbites and the Land Raider (in name at the very least, and some design cues from the rear half) are directly out of ye olde Judge Dredd.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llzvkwwPV61qi8laso1_500.jpg

chaos0xomega wrote:
Oh is it that time of the week again?

 FirePainter wrote:


Did GW "steal" elves from fantasy in general and put them in space?

Did GW "steal" ideas of vampires, werewolves, and angels (light and dark) from other sources?

Incidentally, the part where they put these things in space is probably the most unique element of the 40K setting.

You can't really work in sci-fi or fantasy without taking inspiration from those that have good before.

Disagreed.

A large part of 40k is the Warp, Chaos, and the God Emperor, none of
which is present in Star Craft or a lot of other fiction involving power
armour and bugs.

NOW. Back at the time Starcraft came about, a lot of these elements weren't in the setting or were significantly toned down.

And are actually concepts dating back to Michael Moorcock and Frank Herbert. They have always been present in 40K, however (in fact, in RT, the Emperor still spoke...).

chaos0xomega wrote:

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:
It seems only the people falling in the "no" category are posting. The poll contradicts the general climate here.

Not really, we have more people voting 'no' and more people posting saying as such, there is no contradiction there.

It's about Starcraft being a blatant ripoff.

Except its not (keep in mind I loathe Starcraft). If GW never existed, and Starcraft came into being, you could conceivably make the claim that Starcraft is a blatant Starship Troopers ripoff or a ripoff of one of the other dozens of sci-fi settings that features power armored humans fighting alien insect hordes. For that to be the case, would require it to NOT have been a blatant ripoff of GW. Also keep in mind, that the 40k setting was VERY different at the time Starcraft was released. Tyranids were NOT space insects (nor did the Hive Mind exist), and Eldar were space pirates entirely unlike the Protoss, that alone kinda blows holes in any chance of Starcraft being a blatant ripoff, if anything the Tyranids are a ripoff of the Zerg, as the design for them changed post Starcraft to a more Alienesque/Zerglike style. I'd say Protoss are fairly unique to Starcraft and have no analogue in 40k, if anything they're more a ripoff of Predators, and even thats a huge stretch. The only real case you could make is Terran Marines = Space Marines, except the power armor styles are entirely different and 40K DIDN'T DO POWER ARMOR FIRST.

While Blizzard may have been inspired by the 40K IP

Doubt it, as stated 40K was a different animal in those days.

It seems WAY too many people are either completely unaware as to how 40k evolved from its original inception to today, or are looking at Starcraft from the present day point of view and not the environment of the time of release, because there really is NOTHING to say that Starcraft was even remotely inspired by WH40K.

It's not that different, really. While RT/2nd Ed was a lot more "fantasy in space", the basic building blocks of everything we know and love in 40K was there. Space Marines, Aliens, big guns, big tanks...

... but it doesn't matter because Starcraft was not a GW property or project at any point in time. Were the Blizzard guys inspired by a few 40K elements? Probably. That's how artists function. Good writers borrow, great writers steal.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The original StarCraft took a lot of ideas from 40k (Space Marine visuals

Huh?

siege tanks are Leman Russes

lolwut? I dont think the Leman Russ existed until after Starcraft was released, and the two seem nothing alike.

No, the Leman Russ was an RT-era thing. Named for General Leman Russ of the Imperial Army. Leman Russ did not become the Primarch of the Space Wolves until 2nd Ed.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Dragoons are pretty much SM Dreadnoughs

Wha? Wtf are you even talking about?

Protos are a lot like Eldar/Dark Eldar etc.

Stop talking.

Dragoons are Dreads in lore only, the art and design are vastly different.

And in that case, I think its GW that stole the ideas from Starcraft, IIRC dreadnoughts at the time of Starcrafts release were piloted by marines, not marines entombed in a machine.

Nope, always been a coffin with guns.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Also, Blizzard Marines were lorewise mostly Convicted Criminals, not superbred humans.

To be fair, GW marines weren't much different in those days in terms of being criminals and thugs (and weren't superhumans), but if anything thats also something GW took from Starcraft, as Starcraft marines are said to be neurally reprogrammed and experimented on biologically (which wasnt the case with Rogue Trader marines AFAIK).

40K Marines in RT were criminals hopped up on combat drugs and aggression-enhancers, given big guns and big armor, and told to go kill things. There were lots of "cybernetics" and "bioenhancements" mentioned, because those are cool, sci-fi sounding phrases, but I don't think we had a complete list until 2nd or 3rd Ed. Most importantly, though... 2nd Ed 40K predates Starcraft by many, many years.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Ghosts and Vindicaere Assassins (human stealthy sharpshooters)
Vultures and Scout Bikers (mine-dropping hit-and-run scouts on bikes)
SCVs and Dreadnoughts (just visuals - on concept arts SCVs look like SM dreads with drill and forklift)
Valkyrie and Valkyrie (flying missileboat with curved wings)
Siege Tank and Leman Russ (heavy, block-like tank with immense firepower)
Shuttle/Corsair and Wave Serpent (crescent-shaped space ship used in surface wars)
High Templars and Farseers (masters of psychic powers in battle-robes)

I think everything you just listed are examples of things that GW took from Starcraft, not the other way around.

Various DCA and such have been in 40K since 2nd Ed, and the idea of them is definitely pre-SC. I would not say that either of them took the idea of the assassin from the other in any way. Bike Armies have been around since White Scars existed. The Wave Serpent is basic Eldar appearance for all their stuff going way back. Basically, I don't think any of the things listed here are taken from one side by the other, but are common enough in any sci-fi setting to be considered "universal".

I doubt there is a single original thing in 40k, everything I ever checked was a ripoff (well maybe a beakie helmet but I guess I will find it too sooner or later). First and main source is 2000AD comic books (they were probably more or less friend though, both companies coming from Nothingham), mainly "Nemesis the Warclock" issue "Termight Empire", an sf and fantasy mixup where chapters of space powered armored soldiers serving a facist Emipire launch the space crusade against aliens and a Khaos deamon fights them. Most of marine designs are scattered through 2000AD various comic books like ABC Warriors or Judge Dredd, armour here, helmet there, chest plate 3 pages later, bolter just heavy version of Judge Dredd gun, also Imperial one liners, maps style, Eldar helmets, monkey stye Orks, goblins and many others, they took various bits slapped them together and mighy Space Marines emerged. It's not that much GW ripping of Dune or Heinlein or Moorcock but others ripping off them and GW going the easy route of stealing stolen things. They added many things later like Terminator, Aliens, Predator, B class sf or some Anime rippofs, bits from Dune like navigators, from movies like Marbo etc then twisted to grimdark and there you go, 40k.

To give credit where it's due, GW are genius adaptators. The ultra grimdark twist of Terminator with subtle ancient/ cthulhu themes was awesome (obviously spoiled now by silly Pirates of Caribean in spaace version of Necrons) and Tyranids are visualy better than Aliens now imo, not to mention a brilliant twist of making the clearly evil Thermight Empire type guys the most good faction in their universe. Moorcok chaos simplified to pure madness is a great touch too imo, it all came together as a gritty and dark parody which is just beutiful, down to the silly and overblown 40000 number. They darkened everything they touched, at least until Tau, noble Space Marines and then entire 6th edition going as fantasy in space as possible. All imho ofc.

GW ripped everyone else, then Blizzard ripped off them but in a very unimaginative manner though. Personaly I hate Blizzard style especialy Warcraft.

 Jidmah wrote:


Because both companies stole single ideads (not entire concepts) from each other, a lot of things became similar. I couldn't bother to research which one was first in each case, but there are a lot of similar units:
Ghosts and Vindicaere Assassins (human stealthy sharpshooters)
Vultures and Scout Bikers (mine-dropping hit-and-run scouts on bikes)
SCVs and Dreadnoughts (just visuals - on concept arts SCVs look like SM dreads with drill and forklift)
Valkyrie and Valkyrie (flying missileboat with curved wings)
Siege Tank and Leman Russ (heavy, block-like tank with immense firepower)
Shuttle/Corsair and Wave Serpent (crescent-shaped space ship used in surface wars)
High Templars and Farseers (masters of psychic powers in battle-robes)

Don't get me wrong, the universes aren't anywhere near identical. But you can't deny that both Blizzard and GW borrowed ideas from each other.

I think it's a stretch both to say they stole those things off of each other, and some of those comparisons are extremely tenuous at best. If anything they are both simply doing their take on universal concepts. IMO, a lit of 40k players seem to have a 'goldfish bowl' view of things, and seem to think gw and 40k matter far more than they actually do.

Ghosts and vindicates? Super snipers with stealth suits are hardly unique concepts.
Vultures and scout bikers? The latter only got mines in fifth ed, and I don't recall ever having used vultures in Starcraft beyond Jim raynor.
Scv's and dreads. Don't see it personally. One is a utility vehicle piloted by a redneck.The other isn't.
Valkyries. Seriously, there are not many ways of playing around with 'gunship'. And it's not like curved wings don't exist in real life.
Siege tanks and russes? Come on, seriously. There are not many ways to play around with 'battle tank'.
Shuttles ad wave serpents? Very tenuous.transports that fly. Generic sci if 101.
Templars and farseers. Both are Battle wizard but beyond this, have little in common. Batter wizard is after all a common trope.

See what I mean? A lot of the similarities have little to do with each other, just common source material and design concepts.n

And are actually concepts dating back to Michael Moorcock and Frank Herbert. They have always been present in 40K, however (in fact, in RT, the Emperor still spoke...).

I dont know about that, things like the Horus Heresy weren't present or were just vaguely alluded to in the early days of the setting, it certainly wasn't as fleshed out as it is now.

It's not that different, really. While RT/2nd Ed was a lot more "fantasy in space", the basic building blocks of everything we know and love in 40K was there. Space Marines, Aliens, big guns, big tanks...

Basic building blocks, yes, but the two were absolutely nothing alike otherwise. Need I remind you that in those days Space Marines weren't xenocidal maniacs and often worked together? You could even have Marines carrying Eldar weaponry... hell there was even a half human/half Eldar marine character.

No, the Leman Russ was an RT-era thing. Named for General Leman Russ of the Imperial Army. Leman Russ did not become the Primarch of the Space Wolves until 2nd Ed.

What did it actually look like though?

Nope, always been a coffin with guns.

Err. No. The original rogue trader dreadnoughts were Imperial (not Space Marine) vehicles piloted by a dude in a cockpit.

40K Marines in RT were criminals hopped up on combat drugs and aggression-enhancers, given big guns and big armor, and told to go kill things. There were lots of "cybernetics" and "bioenhancements" mentioned, because those are cool, sci-fi sounding phrases, but I don't think we had a complete list until 2nd or 3rd Ed. Most importantly, though... 2nd Ed 40K predates Starcraft by many, many years.

Regardless, the idea that Terran Marines were stolen from 40k is a joke.

The Wave Serpent is basic Eldar appearance for all their stuff going way back.

You ever see the original wave serpent?



It'd be really difficult to say that Starcraft stole the eldars "crescent-shaped space ship used in surface wars" when the eldar didn't use crescent-shaped wave serpents, etc. until later.

chaos0xomega wrote:

No, the Leman Russ was an RT-era thing. Named for General Leman Russ of the Imperial Army. Leman Russ did not become the Primarch of the Space Wolves until 2nd Ed.

What did it actually look like though?

Pretty sure these are the first incarnation of the Leman Russ from Epic. They are certainly the ones that my brother picked up in the late 80s/early 90s when he was into the hobby.

http://www.craftworldgames.co.uk/p/product/0808138210-LEMAN+RUSS+Mk2+DETACHMENT+WARHAMMER+EPIC+40k+IMPERIAL+GUARD/

They got updated a bit over the years, but they are still pretty much the same shape.

Psienesis


You need to check your lore, go back to the original Rogue Trader book, Chapter approved and Red 40k Companion. You are off by quite a bit.



All dreadnoughts were piloted including Eldar and Ork. Orks were the closest at the time to being coffins as they talk about nailing some poor runt into his seat.

From what I know/heard is that bliz got the licence from gw to use the warhammer ip but they pulled the plug at the last minute and they didnt want to waste all they're work so they made their own ip and thus the warcraft rts series and starcraft games were born with WoW following it afterwards.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Psienesis


You need to check your lore, go back to the original Rogue Trader book, Chapter approved and Red 40k Companion. You are off by quite a bit.



All dreadnoughts were piloted including Eldar and Ork. Orks were the closest at the time to being coffins as they talk about nailing some poor runt into his seat.

I'm talking about the ones listed as "Imperial Dreadnoughts" that had a model released in... I wanna say '88? '89? Somewhere in that era, as that was just before I went into high school.

I really only remember the Eldar one named the War-Daemon... simply because it had the coolest name of all the dreads, as opposed to the ImpDreads that all seemed to be named Chuck, Ed, Dick, Larry, etc.

Though by 3rd edition, they were definitely life-support systems for mortally-wounded Marines, and 3rd Ed 40K was released the same year as StarCraft, so it is highly unlikely that they wrote the rulebook in a rush after playing StarCraft for a few weeks (because, let's face it, in 1998, no one played Starcraft for "just a few hours").

One of my good friends is a developer at blizzard, and his Wife also works for blizzard in the art dept. I myself was contraced to do some database development for wow prior to its release, this is what I was told by him and a few others that also work(ed) at blizzard.

Original Warcraft, was not warhammer. It was inspired by the battles in lord of the rings, they wanted to recreate those. So basically monsters vs mankind.

WoW was actually going to be diablo v3, but it was decided that Warcraft was the more popular franchise, and had a better setting for what they wanted to achieve with the game / opposing factions.

Starcraft was in fact originally slated to be warhammer 40k, but there was a falling out between blizzard and games workshop. The falling out from what I was told was mostly over game play. GW wanted it more squad based, no resource management, etc, and GW wanted to run the show. Blizzard pretty much told them no, and that they basically wanted a scifi themed Warcraft, as in game play. The original game was actually going to have at least 4 factions. Orcs being the 4th faction was dropped and the other factions changed enough to not get sued for IP infringement.

abstract wrote:
One of my good friends is a developer at blizzard, and his Wife also works for blizzard in the art dept. I myself was contraced to do some database development for wow prior to its release, this is what I was told by him and a few others that also work(ed) at blizzard.

Original Warcraft, was not warhammer. It was inspired by the battles in lord of the rings, they wanted to recreate those. So basically monsters vs mankind.

WoW was actually going to be diablo v3, but it was decided that Warcraft was the more popular franchise, and had a better setting for what they wanted to achieve with the game / opposing factions.

Starcraft was in fact originally slated to be warhammer 40k, but there was a falling out between blizzard and games workshop. The falling out from what I was told was mostly over game play. GW wanted it more squad based, no resource management, etc, and GW wanted to run the show. Blizzard pretty much told them no, and that they basically wanted a scifi themed Warcraft, as in game play. The original game was actually going to have at least 4 factions. Orcs being the 4th faction was dropped and the other factions changed enough to not get sued for IP infringement.

Interesting.

abstract wrote:
One of my good friends is a developer at blizzard, and his Wife also works for blizzard in the art dept. I myself was contraced to do some database development for wow prior to its release, this is what I was told by him and a few others that also work(ed) at blizzard.

Original Warcraft, was not warhammer. It was inspired by the battles in lord of the rings, they wanted to recreate those. So basically monsters vs mankind.

WoW was actually going to be diablo v3, but it was decided that Warcraft was the more popular franchise, and had a better setting for what they wanted to achieve with the game / opposing factions.

Starcraft was in fact originally slated to be warhammer 40k, but there was a falling out between blizzard and games workshop. The falling out from what I was told was mostly over game play. GW wanted it more squad based, no resource management, etc, and GW wanted to run the show. Blizzard pretty much told them no, and that they basically wanted a scifi themed Warcraft, as in game play. The original game was actually going to have at least 4 factions. Orcs being the 4th faction was dropped and the other factions changed enough to not get sued for IP infringement.

No offense man, but you can't really go into a forum saying 'well I know this guy' without backing it up and evidence supporting it. For all we know, you just made that entirely up.

 Wyzilla wrote:

abstract wrote:
One of my good friends is a developer at blizzard, and his Wife also works for blizzard in the art dept. I myself was contraced to do some database development for wow prior to its release, this is what I was told by him and a few others that also work(ed) at blizzard.

Original Warcraft, was not warhammer. It was inspired by the battles in lord of the rings, they wanted to recreate those. So basically monsters vs mankind.

WoW was actually going to be diablo v3, but it was decided that Warcraft was the more popular franchise, and had a better setting for what they wanted to achieve with the game / opposing factions.

Starcraft was in fact originally slated to be warhammer 40k, but there was a falling out between blizzard and games workshop. The falling out from what I was told was mostly over game play. GW wanted it more squad based, no resource management, etc, and GW wanted to run the show. Blizzard pretty much told them no, and that they basically wanted a scifi themed Warcraft, as in game play. The original game was actually going to have at least 4 factions. Orcs being the 4th faction was dropped and the other factions changed enough to not get sued for IP infringement.

No offense man, but you can't really go into a forum saying 'well I know this guy' without backing it up and evidence supporting it. For all we know, you just made that entirely up.

Agree. If it's actually true, he could just give their names - there is no NDA on any of those products anymore.

Other then a recorded deposition, what would constitute as supporting evidence?
Dropping names? Let's say for argument sake you both are correct and I fabricated this whole thing, how hard would it be to look up names and just use those? Would you contact the people and ask them if what I posted was factual?

I thought it was super odd that orcs didn't make it into Starcraft. What with Warcraft. Odd indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and to the dipstick that called me out for mentioning the polls. There's this thing called "time", I think that's it anyway. As it passes you see, things change.