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This is the crux of it all. You make this statement, other respond with evidence that a bolter can work and that we currently have all the component technology needed its just not been cobbled together because we currently have no need for them, and then you start saying that none of it counts because we don't currently manufacture bolter-type weapons and therefore they could never exist. Its either a really bad circular argument, or trolling of the 1st degree!
So your saying the evidence you provided can be made small enough and work?
What about the HUGE problem of the shell working like a bullet THEN becoming a rocket mid flight, let alone exploding after impact... all in one tiny shell. If it where a rocket to begin with, had no after impact explosive then it would work. But not as its designed. they would have to change the fluff of the bolter for it to work. (which they already have). Because AS I STATED VERY CLEARLY we have almost bolters, but full on fluff bolters arent possible. Even if they were made small caliber.
What you posted shows that it can and dose work, it is just expensive and not very accurate at the moment. All you need to add is a high explosive element, which is easy in the space given. These things are bigger than something like a .577 Nitro Express. They are huge hulking chunks of metal even in a bolt pistol. I don't see why we couldn't make a bolt gun now if someone felt the need. It would be be expensive, but I don't see it not working, especially at the ranges we use in 40k. Even in the 40k universe they are expensive weapons, hence why only the very best get them.
On to another subject, Ork tech. Allot of stuff is based on jokes and poking fun at things. The way I see ork tech working "because they believe it to" is like the car that you spend hours trying to fix, and only starts after much shouting, swearing and hitting stuff with a hammer. It is the same sort of thing with the Ad Mech. Every engineer knows that you can do everything right, but you will still pray that something works when you first start it up. In that case, like the car that won't start on a cold morning until you turn the key for the 6th time and say "please please please start! Please!!!!".
Ork Tech however is mostly very crude, but functional. There is a mix of innate knowledge, the gestalt field that keeps things that are on the verge of braking from completely collapsing and orks just not caring. I do think this is part of it. Humans call something broken because it makes a funny noise or a bit falls off, so it must go to be treated by the Ad Mech as the machine spirit is in pain. Orks just keep using it with no mechanical sympathy. To a human it is broken, to an Ork it is working, possibly even better as it is making even more noise.
No you are wrong, the one I posted fires nothing like the bolter. The bolter fires a bullet which in mid air a rocket goes off after which there is explosives that go off after impact. Nothing like we have today. The gun I showed was the only way a bolter will work, which is rocket propelled from the start and doesnt have explosives etc etc (or the round would have to be huge, but thats not to say impossible). Its very different.
And orks are just messed up haha...
Spoiler:
Are you really that thick, or are you just a troll that annoys everything that smashed that position in the last thread? No, we drowned a thread in these posts. We can build a functioning heavy bolter with modern technology, it's easy as hell to build within a .75-1.00 caliber "bullet" and would work perfectly fine. The reason why we don't have bolters is because they're stupid. The only reason why W40K uses them instead of plasma is because of the rule of cool and the IOM R&D is simply archeology, not innovation. All you need to do to make a functioning bolter is take a modern gyrojet round, slap a blasting cap on it, then bam, you've got a bolter. That's all it takes. Your constant refuting of this is either simple ignorance of modern technology (well, "modern", as we've have it since the seventies) or you simply being a troll, and I'm leaning to the latter now. Since this seems to be difficult-
Bolter = miniature .75 missile with an HE charge on the tip, gryojets on the back, loaded in a cartridge with gunpowder.
Gryojet Round + HE Charge on the tip + Gunpowder Cartridge = Bolter.
This is not hard to understand at all. Bolts are extremely simple in design and we could start producing them right now if they weren't horribly inefficient weapons.
No it wont work at all, its not the size, its not the gyro jets, its the fact that it fires like a normal bullet THEN mid flight the rocket goes off then magicaLLY EXPLODES AFTER KNOWING IT WENT INTO A HUMAN/anything thats a target. Its not simple at all. It works fine until you try make the rockets go off mid flight (if the guidence on the back wasnt disfigured and could still function) then it has the problem where it wont go straight then it has to some how have a device that allows it to explode once its penetrated something.
So Problem #1: Gyro in mid flight... there is a reason rocket launchers arent shot out of a cannon, they need to be guided... either buy fins or barrel or rail... (except the gyro, whicch function as lesser fins) but the gyro needs to be activated and still needs the barrel to get it on course. Let alone the initial firing of the bullet not destroying the gyros precise guidence exhausts on the back of the shell.
Problem #2: Then you have the probelm of the bullet knowing when it to explode. A few years ago they where raving about how they can now make bullets explode at a certain distance. Weapons can become explosive after being hit (like artillery shells commonly do, but that results in a lot of unexploded shells), they can also explode after travelling a certain distance (like flakk but works on altatude), they can make shells that (hopefully) burst in the air above a target and so forth.
Your evidence is just giving me a multidude of weapons that have a minute similarity to how the bolter works then saying "all we need to do is merge these vastly different weapons of vastly different roles, designes and materials and we have a bolter silly".
Well cake, pizza and chips are tasty, so all we need to do is combine them all and it tastes great right?...
Some things can be combined, others cant dude, and all the weapons you kept showing me means nothing over all as there is nothing at all to suggest they can be merged. If you are so sure you are correct make and orthographic and technical drawing of the gun, materials used, systems in the bullet combined with thew rocket combined with the timed explosive, then tell me how much of those are needed to power the round, then show me how you will solve the problems with how it fires without the round failing every time or missing as bad as a black powder musket, and the list goes on.
Im ending it here because you guys are a bit slow sometimes, but the engineering is not as easy as "lets combine all the guns in the world!" the peices have to fit and have to be as close to perfect as possible especially since all the problems of all those guns (IF they can even be combined) would all become worse as well, all their problems are combined. Its something you have no evidence to show besides pure speculation.
As I keep saying. The bolt gun as designed in the fluff does not work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/20 20:47:11
Oh, gods. Are you attempting to use the kedgeree argument on boltguns now?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
So Problem #1: Gyro in mid flight... there is a reason rocket launchers arent shot out of a cannon, they need to be guided... either buy fins or barrel or rail... (except the gyro, whicch function as lesser fins) but the gyro needs to be activated and still needs the barrel to get it on course. Let alone the initial firing of the bullet not destroying the gyros precise guidence exhausts on the back of the shell.
That's called a two-stage munition. They exist.
No it wont work at all, its not the size, its not the gyro jets, its the fact that it fires like a normal bullet THEN mid flight the rocket goes off then magicaLLY EXPLODES AFTER KNOWING IT WENT INTO A HUMAN/anything thats a target. Its not simple at all. It works fine until you try make the rockets go off mid flight (if the guidence on the back wasnt disfigured and could still function) then it has the problem where it wont go straight then it has to some how have a device that allows it to explode once its penetrated something.
The "mass-reactive round" bit is sci-fantasy stuff, but a timed explosive round using similar means is not. Once the round strikes something, the "fuse" is lit, and it explodes a short time later... which means the round has passed through the outer shell of whatever it hit, and is now inside whatever it hit, and then explodes. This is usually a bunker, so the round passes through the wall, initiating the explosive's timer, and into the room inside the bunker. It then explodes, killing everyone inside deader than gak.
They exist and are in use today, though since they are designed to kill multiple targets at once (or one very armored target), you don't find them in small arms. There is absolutely no purpose for them to be a small arms munition in modern warfare.
There are all kinds of FFAR that function just fine with booster rockets and the like to provide additional oomph. The odds of having the gyro in a bolter-like round damaged are very slim. Will one be a dud, or have wonky flight physics due to damage to the round, every now and then? Sure, but the same is true of standard munitions. Sometimes, the artillery round just doesn't go off. This is one reason why EOD guys exist.
Problem #2: Then you have the probelm of the bullet knowing when it to explode. A few years ago they where raving about how they can now make bullets explode at a certain distance. Weapons can become explosive after being hit (like artillery shells commonly do, but that results in a lot of unexploded shells), they can also explode after travelling a certain distance (like flakk but works on altatude), they can make shells that (hopefully) burst in the air above a target and so forth.
They have had rounds doing this reliably for centuries. They had cannonballs in the Civil War that could do this. This is not at all a difficult ballistic science.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Bunker busters arent timed, they just are designed so that buy the time it explodes it has already gone deep enough into the earth creating a mini earthquake NEXT to the bunker.
Gyros can hardly fly straight as it is, a mini explosion will make it worse
Civil war artillery did not use explosive cannonballs. They used canisters and revolutionised warfare doing so. Pretty much just cannons that didnt miss as much and sprayed shrapnel. The shells could be timed but it didnt work often. And it had to be timed not "explodes after impact".
Bunker busters arent timed, they just are designed so that buy the time it explodes it has already gone deep enough into the earth creating a mini earthquake NEXT to the bunker.
Gyros can hardly fly straight as it is, a mini explosion will make it worse
And? Gyro weapons have all but ceased development and research in a serious way in the last 40 years. This does not mean that a gyro weapon could not be made to get beyond this issue, which was mainly evidenced in the original gyroget weapons, which were literally built in someone's garage using off-the-shelf materials. With better-quality components, gyrojet rounds may not have such issues. This would require research that is not currently being done, however, as there is neither a need nor a desire for a gyroget weapon in the modern world.
Civil war artillery did not use explosive cannonballs. They used canisters and revolutionised warfare doing so. Pretty much just cannons that didnt miss as much and sprayed shrapnel. The shells could be timed but it didnt work often. And it had to be timed not "explodes after impact".
Whether you want to call it a shell or a cannonball is irrelevant, as they were fired from cannons, and the timed-explosive ones were equipped with a fuse to detonate the shell at a pre-determined time, generally to throw nails into people. I have the remains of such a cannonball sitting on my desk at home, you can even see the remains of a dozen nails inside it, now all rusted together and fused to the interior of the shell through oxidization. This shell was recovered from a battle-site near Olustee, Florida, in the early 90s.
Swastakowey, how about this, It's 38,000 years in the future, they probably have advanced gyroscopes, miniature high explosives ect. For all we know boltguns could function like coil guns.
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Co'tor Shas wrote: Swastakowey, how about this, It's 38,000 years in the future, they probably have advanced gyroscopes, miniature high explosives ect. For all we know boltguns could function like coil guns.
Yea but im not convinced it will work today, which is what many seem to beleive.
Although Psinisies showed me some real evidence which is cool.
If the boltgun fired a round without the first stage (just the rocket stage), then had fins like the RPG and exploded on impact (which means it would go through most things, killing them outright still) then I think the bolt gun could be working today. But as I have said it wouldnt be a bolt gun, it would be an almost bolt gun.
"gyrojet rounds may not have such issues" - this is assumption which a lot of the bolt gun design. Assumption.
Although you have shown me the best evidence So far (for example the timed fuse) I think it needs to be smooshed to actually activate, (lots of weapons activate when the round is squashed) but being plastic explosive means they have the luxury of timing it. Something I never thought about!
So with that new info I still think the above but with plastic explosive it may be possible to make an almost bolter. But not exactly as functioning in 40k. Which is what I have been argueing this whole time.
A fin guided, not bullet then rocket, plastic explosive round would be makable I think.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Swastakowey, how about this, It's 38,000 years in the future, they probably have advanced gyroscopes, miniature high explosives ect. For all we know boltguns could function like coil guns.
Yea but im not convinced it will work today, which is what many seem to beleive.
Although Psinisies showed me some real evidence which is cool.
If the boltgun fired a round without the first stage (just the rocket stage), then had fins like the RPG and exploded on impact (which means it would go through most things, killing them outright still) then I think the bolt gun could be working today. But as I have said it wouldnt be a bolt gun, it would be an almost bolt gun.
"gyrojet rounds may not have such issues" - this is assumption which a lot of the bolt gun design. Assumption.
Although you have shown me the best evidence So far (for example the timed fuse) I think it needs to be smooshed to actually activate, (lots of weapons activate when the round is squashed) but being plastic explosive means they have the luxury of timing it. Something I never thought about!
So with that new info I still think the above but with plastic explosive it may be possible to make an almost bolter. But not exactly as functioning in 40k. Which is what I have been argueing this whole time.
A fin guided, not bullet then rocket, plastic explosive round would be makable I think.
Oh, I thought you were saying that it just wouldn't work.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Swastakowey, how about this, It's 38,000 years in the future, they probably have advanced gyroscopes, miniature high explosives ect. For all we know boltguns could function like coil guns.
Yea but im not convinced it will work today, which is what many seem to beleive.
Although Psinisies showed me some real evidence which is cool.
If the boltgun fired a round without the first stage (just the rocket stage), then had fins like the RPG and exploded on impact (which means it would go through most things, killing them outright still) then I think the bolt gun could be working today. But as I have said it wouldnt be a bolt gun, it would be an almost bolt gun.
"gyrojet rounds may not have such issues" - this is assumption which a lot of the bolt gun design. Assumption.
Although you have shown me the best evidence So far (for example the timed fuse) I think it needs to be smooshed to actually activate, (lots of weapons activate when the round is squashed) but being plastic explosive means they have the luxury of timing it. Something I never thought about!
So with that new info I still think the above but with plastic explosive it may be possible to make an almost bolter. But not exactly as functioning in 40k. Which is what I have been argueing this whole time.
A fin guided, not bullet then rocket, plastic explosive round would be makable I think.
Oh, I thought you were saying that it just wouldn't work.
Only parts wont work in my opinion. but yea. im sure this argument comes up a lot.
This is the crux of it all. You make this statement, other respond with evidence that a bolter can work and that we currently have all the component technology needed its just not been cobbled together because we currently have no need for them, and then you start saying that none of it counts because we don't currently manufacture bolter-type weapons and therefore they could never exist. Its either a really bad circular argument, or trolling of the 1st degree!
So your saying the evidence you provided can be made small enough and work?
What about the HUGE problem of the shell working like a bullet THEN becoming a rocket mid flight, let alone exploding after impact... all in one tiny shell. If it where a rocket to begin with, had no after impact explosive then it would work. But not as its designed. they would have to change the fluff of the bolter for it to work. (which they already have). Because AS I STATED VERY CLEARLY we have almost bolters, but full on fluff bolters arent possible. Even if they were made small caliber.
What you posted shows that it can and dose work, it is just expensive and not very accurate at the moment. All you need to add is a high explosive element, which is easy in the space given. These things are bigger than something like a .577 Nitro Express. They are huge hulking chunks of metal even in a bolt pistol. I don't see why we couldn't make a bolt gun now if someone felt the need. It would be be expensive, but I don't see it not working, especially at the ranges we use in 40k. Even in the 40k universe they are expensive weapons, hence why only the very best get them.
On to another subject, Ork tech. Allot of stuff is based on jokes and poking fun at things. The way I see ork tech working "because they believe it to" is like the car that you spend hours trying to fix, and only starts after much shouting, swearing and hitting stuff with a hammer. It is the same sort of thing with the Ad Mech. Every engineer knows that you can do everything right, but you will still pray that something works when you first start it up. In that case, like the car that won't start on a cold morning until you turn the key for the 6th time and say "please please please start! Please!!!!".
Ork Tech however is mostly very crude, but functional. There is a mix of innate knowledge, the gestalt field that keeps things that are on the verge of braking from completely collapsing and orks just not caring. I do think this is part of it. Humans call something broken because it makes a funny noise or a bit falls off, so it must go to be treated by the Ad Mech as the machine spirit is in pain. Orks just keep using it with no mechanical sympathy. To a human it is broken, to an Ork it is working, possibly even better as it is making even more noise.
No you are wrong, the one I posted fires nothing like the bolter. The bolter fires a bullet which in mid air a rocket goes off after which there is explosives that go off after impact. Nothing like we have today. The gun I showed was the only way a bolter will work, which is rocket propelled from the start and doesnt have explosives etc etc (or the round would have to be huge, but thats not to say impossible). Its very different.
And orks are just messed up haha...
Spoiler:
Are you really that thick, or are you just a troll that annoys everything that smashed that position in the last thread? No, we drowned a thread in these posts. We can build a functioning heavy bolter with modern technology, it's easy as hell to build within a .75-1.00 caliber "bullet" and would work perfectly fine. The reason why we don't have bolters is because they're stupid. The only reason why W40K uses them instead of plasma is because of the rule of cool and the IOM R&D is simply archeology, not innovation. All you need to do to make a functioning bolter is take a modern gyrojet round, slap a blasting cap on it, then bam, you've got a bolter. That's all it takes. Your constant refuting of this is either simple ignorance of modern technology (well, "modern", as we've have it since the seventies) or you simply being a troll, and I'm leaning to the latter now. Since this seems to be difficult-
Bolter = miniature .75 missile with an HE charge on the tip, gryojets on the back, loaded in a cartridge with gunpowder.
Gryojet Round + HE Charge on the tip + Gunpowder Cartridge = Bolter.
This is not hard to understand at all. Bolts are extremely simple in design and we could start producing them right now if they weren't horribly inefficient weapons.
No it wont work at all, its not the size, its not the gyro jets, its the fact that it fires like a normal bullet THEN mid flight the rocket goes off then magicaLLY EXPLODES AFTER KNOWING IT WENT INTO A HUMAN/anything thats a target. Its not simple at all. It works fine until you try make the rockets go off mid flight (if the guidence on the back wasnt disfigured and could still function) then it has the problem where it wont go straight then it has to some how have a device that allows it to explode once its penetrated something.
So Problem #1: Gyro in mid flight... there is a reason rocket launchers arent shot out of a cannon, they need to be guided... either buy fins or barrel or rail... (except the gyro, whicch function as lesser fins) but the gyro needs to be activated and still needs the barrel to get it on course. Let alone the initial firing of the bullet not destroying the gyros precise guidence exhausts on the back of the shell.
Problem #2: Then you have the probelm of the bullet knowing when it to explode. A few years ago they where raving about how they can now make bullets explode at a certain distance. Weapons can become explosive after being hit (like artillery shells commonly do, but that results in a lot of unexploded shells), they can also explode after travelling a certain distance (like flakk but works on altatude), they can make shells that (hopefully) burst in the air above a target and so forth.
Your evidence is just giving me a multidude of weapons that have a minute similarity to how the bolter works then saying "all we need to do is merge these vastly different weapons of vastly different roles, designes and materials and we have a bolter silly".
Well cake, pizza and chips are tasty, so all we need to do is combine them all and it tastes great right?...
Some things can be combined, others cant dude, and all the weapons you kept showing me means nothing over all as there is nothing at all to suggest they can be merged. If you are so sure you are correct make and orthographic and technical drawing of the gun, materials used, systems in the bullet combined with thew rocket combined with the timed explosive, then tell me how much of those are needed to power the round, then show me how you will solve the problems with how it fires without the round failing every time or missing as bad as a black powder musket, and the list goes on.
Im ending it here because you guys are a bit slow sometimes, but the engineering is not as easy as "lets combine all the guns in the world!" the peices have to fit and have to be as close to perfect as possible especially since all the problems of all those guns (IF they can even be combined) would all become worse as well, all their problems are combined. Its something you have no evidence to show besides pure speculation.
As I keep saying. The bolt gun as designed in the fluff does not work.
WE SPENT A WHOLE DAMN THREAD EXPLAINING THIS TO YOU! HOW IS THIS NOT CLEAR?
NO! WE CAN DO IT!
A functioning bolter is easily build-able with today's technology- we've have the tech for FORTY YEARS. It would be a large .75 caliber round stabilized by gyrojets with a timed explosive fired out of the barrel from a cartidge packed with gunpowder. Stop picking up the goalposts and running away with them- we'll belittle you as a troll in that case, as that's all you're doing, trolling. No. We have the technology. We could build a functioning bolter, exactly how they function in the fluff, hell, we can even one-up the Fluff and make them GUIDED and capable of correcting their flight path. The only inability is to cap them with admantanium because this metal literally cannot exist. In every other regard, it'd be a bolter and function near exactly like the fluff, if not even be better and improved with guided ammunition. Now stop with the trolling, because you shifting the goalposts from 'incapable of building a bolter', 'incapable of building an exact fluffy bolter', etc, and attempting to pass the evidence we keep stuffing into your eyeballs proving it to be fully CAPABLE.
feth man. One more goal post shift or again denying all the evidence we present and you're landing on my ignore list. This isn't rocket science, this is simply strapping two extra stages onto an already existing round and slightly increasing its length to a full .75 or 1.00 caliber. And bolter rounds aren't bullets, and neither are the things we'd be building. Bolters are fully automatic missile launchers with HE charges tipped with timed explosives. We spent a whole thread posting tech that has existed for over a decade and pointing out that any bolter weapon we can make would actually be better in accuracy, only for you to completely ignore it of move the goalpost further back. R&D isn't an instant process genius, and I'm sorry to say that things actually take research and development to produce, because "can" means "within five years, at maximum", and that's only for improving its efficiency. Now howbout you actually read the posts we make, and read the links..
The boltgun, or bolter, fires small missiles known as 'bolts'. Each self-propelled bolt explodes with devastating once it has penetrated its target. There are many variations of boltguns, from the short-barreled bolt pistol the the Vulcan mega-bolter often mounted on Titans and other super-heavy vehicles.
Pg 56 of the BRB, Sixth Edition.
We can easily build this weapon, and will fit every single definition of the bolter, by the official BRB. But please, do go on with disagreeing with not only modern military technology, and the tech that we've had from the seventies onwards, but also the word of god itself from GW on the definition of a boltgun. Now excuse me as I deal with these new migraines received from this discussion.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
This is the crux of it all. You make this statement, other respond with evidence that a bolter can work and that we currently have all the component technology needed its just not been cobbled together because we currently have no need for them, and then you start saying that none of it counts because we don't currently manufacture bolter-type weapons and therefore they could never exist. Its either a really bad circular argument, or trolling of the 1st degree!
So your saying the evidence you provided can be made small enough and work?
What about the HUGE problem of the shell working like a bullet THEN becoming a rocket mid flight, let alone exploding after impact... all in one tiny shell. If it where a rocket to begin with, had no after impact explosive then it would work. But not as its designed. they would have to change the fluff of the bolter for it to work. (which they already have). Because AS I STATED VERY CLEARLY we have almost bolters, but full on fluff bolters arent possible. Even if they were made small caliber.
What you posted shows that it can and dose work, it is just expensive and not very accurate at the moment. All you need to add is a high explosive element, which is easy in the space given. These things are bigger than something like a .577 Nitro Express. They are huge hulking chunks of metal even in a bolt pistol. I don't see why we couldn't make a bolt gun now if someone felt the need. It would be be expensive, but I don't see it not working, especially at the ranges we use in 40k. Even in the 40k universe they are expensive weapons, hence why only the very best get them.
On to another subject, Ork tech. Allot of stuff is based on jokes and poking fun at things. The way I see ork tech working "because they believe it to" is like the car that you spend hours trying to fix, and only starts after much shouting, swearing and hitting stuff with a hammer. It is the same sort of thing with the Ad Mech. Every engineer knows that you can do everything right, but you will still pray that something works when you first start it up. In that case, like the car that won't start on a cold morning until you turn the key for the 6th time and say "please please please start! Please!!!!".
Ork Tech however is mostly very crude, but functional. There is a mix of innate knowledge, the gestalt field that keeps things that are on the verge of braking from completely collapsing and orks just not caring. I do think this is part of it. Humans call something broken because it makes a funny noise or a bit falls off, so it must go to be treated by the Ad Mech as the machine spirit is in pain. Orks just keep using it with no mechanical sympathy. To a human it is broken, to an Ork it is working, possibly even better as it is making even more noise.
No you are wrong, the one I posted fires nothing like the bolter. The bolter fires a bullet which in mid air a rocket goes off after which there is explosives that go off after impact. Nothing like we have today. The gun I showed was the only way a bolter will work, which is rocket propelled from the start and doesnt have explosives etc etc (or the round would have to be huge, but thats not to say impossible). Its very different.
And orks are just messed up haha...
[spoiler]
Are you really that thick, or are you just a troll that annoys everything that smashed that position in the last thread? No, we drowned a thread in these posts. We can build a functioning heavy bolter with modern technology, it's easy as hell to build within a .75-1.00 caliber "bullet" and would work perfectly fine. The reason why we don't have bolters is because they're stupid. The only reason why W40K uses them instead of plasma is because of the rule of cool and the IOM R&D is simply archeology, not innovation. All you need to do to make a functioning bolter is take a modern gyrojet round, slap a blasting cap on it, then bam, you've got a bolter. That's all it takes. Your constant refuting of this is either simple ignorance of modern technology (well, "modern", as we've have it since the seventies) or you simply being a troll, and I'm leaning to the latter now. Since this seems to be difficult-
Bolter = miniature .75 missile with an HE charge on the tip, gryojets on the back, loaded in a cartridge with gunpowder.
Gryojet Round + HE Charge on the tip + Gunpowder Cartridge = Bolter.
This is not hard to understand at all. Bolts are extremely simple in design and we could start producing them right now if they weren't horribly inefficient weapons.
No it wont work at all, its not the size, its not the gyro jets, its the fact that it fires like a normal bullet THEN mid flight the rocket goes off then magicaLLY EXPLODES AFTER KNOWING IT WENT INTO A HUMAN/anything thats a target. Its not simple at all. It works fine until you try make the rockets go off mid flight (if the guidence on the back wasnt disfigured and could still function) then it has the problem where it wont go straight then it has to some how have a device that allows it to explode once its penetrated something.
So Problem #1: Gyro in mid flight... there is a reason rocket launchers arent shot out of a cannon, they need to be guided... either buy fins or barrel or rail... (except the gyro, whicch function as lesser fins) but the gyro needs to be activated and still needs the barrel to get it on course. Let alone the initial firing of the bullet not destroying the gyros precise guidence exhausts on the back of the shell.
Problem #2: Then you have the probelm of the bullet knowing when it to explode. A few years ago they where raving about how they can now make bullets explode at a certain distance. Weapons can become explosive after being hit (like artillery shells commonly do, but that results in a lot of unexploded shells), they can also explode after travelling a certain distance (like flakk but works on altatude), they can make shells that (hopefully) burst in the air above a target and so forth.
Your evidence is just giving me a multidude of weapons that have a minute similarity to how the bolter works then saying "all we need to do is merge these vastly different weapons of vastly different roles, designes and materials and we have a bolter silly".
Well cake, pizza and chips are tasty, so all we need to do is combine them all and it tastes great right?...
Some things can be combined, others cant dude, and all the weapons you kept showing me means nothing over all as there is nothing at all to suggest they can be merged. If you are so sure you are correct make and orthographic and technical drawing of the gun, materials used, systems in the bullet combined with thew rocket combined with the timed explosive, then tell me how much of those are needed to power the round, then show me how you will solve the problems with how it fires without the round failing every time or missing as bad as a black powder musket, and the list goes on.
Im ending it here because you guys are a bit slow sometimes, but the engineering is not as easy as "lets combine all the guns in the world!" the peices have to fit and have to be as close to perfect as possible especially since all the problems of all those guns (IF they can even be combined) would all become worse as well, all their problems are combined. Its something you have no evidence to show besides pure speculation.
As I keep saying. The bolt gun as designed in the fluff does not work.
WE SPENT A WHOLE DAMN THREAD EXPLAINING THIS TO YOU! HOW IS THIS NOT CLEAR?
NO! WE CAN DO IT!
A functioning bolter is easily build-able with today's technology- we've have the tech for FORTY YEARS. It would be a large .75 caliber round stabilized by gyrojets with a timed explosive fired out of the barrel from a cartidge packed with gunpowder. Stop picking up the goalposts and running away with them- we'll belittle you as a troll in that case, as that's all you're doing, trolling. No. We have the technology. We could build a functioning bolter, exactly how they function in the fluff, hell, we can even one-up the Fluff and make them GUIDED and capable of correcting their flight path. The only inability is to cap them with admantanium because this metal literally cannot exist. In every other regard, it'd be a bolter and function near exactly like the fluff, if not even be better and improved with guided ammunition. Now stop with the trolling, because you shifting the goalposts from 'incapable of building a bolter', 'incapable of building an exact fluffy bolter', etc, and attempting to pass the evidence we keep stuffing into your eyeballs proving it to be fully CAPABLE.
feth man. One more goal post shift or again denying all the evidence we present and you're landing on my ignore list. This isn't rocket science, this is simply strapping two extra stages onto an already existing round and slightly increasing its length to a full .75 or 1.00 caliber. And bolter rounds aren't bullets, and neither are the things we'd be building. Bolters are fully automatic missile launchers with HE charges tipped with timed explosives. We spent a whole thread posting tech that has existed for over a decade and pointing out that any bolter weapon we can make would actually be better in accuracy, only for you to completely ignore it of move the goalpost further back. R&D isn't an instant process genius, and I'm sorry to say that things actually take research and development to produce, because "can" means "within five years, at maximum", and that's only for improving its efficiency. Now howbout you actually read the posts we make, and read the links..
The boltgun, or bolter, fires small missiles known as 'bolts'. Each self-propelled bolt explodes with devastating once it has penetrated its target. There are many variations of boltguns, from the short-barreled bolt pistol the the Vulcan mega-bolter often mounted on Titans and other super-heavy vehicles.
Pg 56 of the BRB, Sixth Edition.
We can easily build this weapon, and will fit every single definition of the bolter, by the official BRB. But please, do go on with disagreeing with not only modern military technology, and the tech that we've had from the seventies onwards, but also the word of god itself from GW on the definition of a boltgun. Now excuse me as I deal with these new migraines received from this discussion.
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Psinesis is the only person who has provided real evidence to support your cause. Ignore me as you wish, I dont like what you talk about anyways so I dont miss anything haha.
Im being dead serious by the way. As i said the bolt gun would need fins for guidence not gyro, it wouldnt be a bullet then a gun and it would need plastic explosive. (until proven other wise by someone). Find me real proof like the Psinesis guy, and maybe ill agree but until then I can only see us making an almost bolter. you are just as bad as those star treck guys that talk about beaming people around in the future, seriously.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/21 03:37:58
Even if the boltgun worked, they would not be stupid enough to call it a boltgun, so since they wouldn't name it a boltgun a modern boltgun would still not exist.
See I can move goal posts too.
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
Andrew1975 wrote: Even if the boltgun worked, they would not be stupid enough to call it a boltgun, so since they wouldn't name it a boltgun a modern boltgun would still not exist.
See I can move goal posts too.
Haha very funny. I take it your are (dundun dunnnnnnnn) one of them?
So Problem #1: Gyro in mid flight... there is a reason rocket launchers arent shot out of a cannon, they need to be guided... either buy fins or barrel or rail... (except the gyro, whicch function as lesser fins) but the gyro needs to be activated and still needs the barrel to get it on course. Let alone the initial firing of the bullet not destroying the gyros precise guidence exhausts on the back of the shell.
A rifled barrel provides the inital guidance and initial spin to the round. The angled jets kick in a bit downrange to provide accelleration and to continue the spin.
Problem #2: Then you have the probelm of the bullet knowing when it to explode. A few years ago they where raving about how they can now make bullets explode at a certain distance. Weapons can become explosive after being hit (like artillery shells commonly do, but that results in a lot of unexploded shells), they can also explode after travelling a certain distance (like flakk but works on altatude), they can make shells that (hopefully) burst in the air above a target and so forth.
"Most artillery contact fuzes act immediately, although some may have a delay. This allows a high-explosive or semi-armour-piercing shell to penetrate a wall before exploding, thus achieving the most damage inside the building. "
Given that this can also be done with electrical contacts, miniaturization is not a concern. c.f. all the lsits of smart-rouds we submitted last time around.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
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