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why does that never happen? and why dont more titans just simply trip? we do it so why dont they? and caseless ammo is a pretty shocking idea unless you can find a way of using the rifling. from what i understand the whole idea with caseless ammo is that the bullet or bolt is selfpropelled. but where would the firing pin be? it has nothing to strike to ignite the round plusssss more ammo would surley just cook off from the odd spark here and there?

there is no denying that there are cases for bolt weapons and there are magazines or batteries for las weapons but what about elder tau and crons? how do they reload? do they need to reload? and have you noticed that you dont really see marines with many pouches on their belt bit. where do all the magazines come from? the amount of ammo they use can last for weeks apparently if we take an average of 30 rounds to a mag in a one hour engagement you may fire 200 rounds (if you were being conservative) thats 7 mags right there and you read about most engagements lasting what 8 hours plus? thats 1,600 which is 54 mags. yeah true they can scavange from their own dead but they wont take anything from Chaos dead.

you keep up that weight of fire. for a week a couple of engagements a day totaling to 8 hours. thats 378 mags in 7 days.... the mark VIII could at least have pockets?

 MrBlackledge wrote:

you keep up that weight of fire. for a week a couple of engagements a day totaling to 8 hours. thats 378 mags in 7 days.... the mark VIII could at least have pockets?

Why do you think Space Marines wear flares?

How could i be so foolish?

 MrBlackledge wrote:
If you think about it though a titan would collapse under its own weight... there is no way that something that big can stand and not sink without extreme foundations. some of the largest cranes in the world require entire slabs and piles put into the ground. (apologies I am a construstion nut)

but yeah some weapons are just incomprehensible such as a baneblade cannon. yeah okay big tank big gun and all that but youd think the recoil would just tear the turret off the poor thing.

I did a random back of cigarette packet assessment for this thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/523743.page

So there are suspensors, but you akso just need to get the right size of foot.

Typical bearing pressures for Earth terrain range from about 100kn/sq.m for soft silt up to about 600kN/sq.m for solid bedrock.

So for a 400 metric ton titan required foot sizes range from about 7x7m to 3x3m. This is about the mass of a fully laden heavy lift 747, so probably a reasonable guess for a knight or maybe a warhound at about 50m high.

For a 160 thousand metric tonne titan you would need 125x125m down to about 55x55m sized feet if it only ever tiptoed on granite. However, this is equivalent to the weight of a 240m tall, or 60 storey building with 50m to a side, so probably a bit unwieldy, even for a giant stompy robot. It would also need each foot to have a larger surface area than itself, but I'm sure it could be finessed.

So smaller titans would be easy while the larger titans would likely need some technosorcery assistance, which also has precedence in the fluff anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
why does that never happen? and why dont more titans just simply trip? we do it so why dont they? and caseless ammo is a pretty shocking idea unless you can find a way of using the rifling. from what i understand the whole idea with caseless ammo is that the bullet or bolt is selfpropelled. but where would the firing pin be? it has nothing to strike to ignite the round plusssss more ammo would surley just cook off from the odd spark here and there?

there is no denying that there are cases for bolt weapons and there are magazines or batteries for las weapons but what about elder tau and crons? how do they reload? do they need to reload? and have you noticed that you dont really see marines with many pouches on their belt bit. where do all the magazines come from? the amount of ammo they use can last for weeks apparently if we take an average of 30 rounds to a mag in a one hour engagement you may fire 200 rounds (if you were being conservative) thats 7 mags right there and you read about most engagements lasting what 8 hours plus? thats 1,600 which is 54 mags. yeah true they can scavange from their own dead but they wont take anything from Chaos dead.

you keep up that weight of fire. for a week a couple of engagements a day totaling to 8 hours. thats 378 mags in 7 days.... the mark VIII could at least have pockets?

Ah the good old Caseless Bolter meme

Bolters haven't ben described as caseless since Rogue Trader days. It was never officially retconned, but they just never mentioned it again and since then all artwork has had them as cased rounds. You still need an ejection port with caseless rounds in order to clear jammed or dud rounds. Caseless rounds have been around for ages, the problem is getting a stable enough propellant. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11 as a starter (they also did a rather funky LMG version with a brick of 200 caseless rounds in the stock). Cooking off caseless rounds is one of the key problems to solve in their design but it is possible.

Autoguns are regularly described as caseless, as are assault cannon, however both are also regularly depicted as spraying cases everywhere for aesthetic effect.

Tau weapons have magazines in the back of the stock and each FW has a couple of spare ones stashed on their backpack. It is not adequately explained anywhere how many rounds such magazines hold.

Marines don't get shown with spare magazines, because they would have to have so many of them that the model would start looking weird.

Well, according to Fire Warrior, Tau magazines carry 32 rounds. Then again, that game also had it take half a magazine to kill a Guardsman, so...

Guardsmen are the elite of the galaxy didnt you know?

and flinty this is the exact type of thing i was talking about... it just works.. there are a couple of things that can be explained but other bits just work... somehow some way they just bloody work

 MrBlackledge wrote:
Guardsmen are the elite of the galaxy didnt you know?

and flinty this is the exact type of thing i was talking about... it just works.. there are a couple of things that can be explained but other bits just work... somehow some way they just bloody work

Welcome to extrapolated sci-fi

Its hard to write about something that deosn't exist, so authors tend to write about something they can relate to and gussy it up with technomagical details

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, according to Fire Warrior, Tau magazines carry 32 rounds. Then again, that game also had it take half a magazine to kill a Guardsman, so...

According to the Taros Campaign a pulse power cell has enough charge for 50 shots before needing to be recharged.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, according to Fire Warrior, Tau magazines carry 32 rounds. Then again, that game also had it take half a magazine to kill a Guardsman, so...

According to the Taros Campaign a pulse power cell has enough charge for 50 shots before needing to be recharged.

Heh, so the battery lasts for 50 shots but it only has 32 rounds in the mag? Nice

32 makes more sense than 50, to be honest - Tau work in Base 6 (which makes no sense itself, as they have eight fingers).

For those who love out there weapons....

This is the closest thing to a Bolter made in like the 60s I think. Really cool, just expensive and not too accurate.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/07/26/rocket-powered-pistol-mba-gyrojet-model-b/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e23o0NIHtFw

I found it trying to prove to fan boys that the bolter as its described can not work. Heaps of cool stuff, you can find vids on you tube explaining how they work and its flaws etc, Who knows, one day someone may find out how to make them shoot straight and make em cheaper. This is what the Bolter was designed from in my opinion.

Also the old old eldar codex tries to explain how the shurikan weapons fire, pretty much exactly like a modern day rail gun except gravity powered or something.

Full thread here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/573286.page

Demonstrating that there is absolutely no problem with the concept of the bolter

 Flinty wrote:
Full thread here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/573286.page

Demonstrating that there is absolutely no problem with the concept of the bolter

There is considering the bolter round works as a bullet THEN a rocket, which wouldnt work at all....

 Furyou Miko wrote:
32 makes more sense than 50, to be honest - Tau work in Base 6 (which makes no sense itself, as they have eight fingers).

As far as I know tau work of base 8. They have the numbers 0-7. If you read the fluff the pulse rifle actually works like a coil gun that shoots a single particle that breaks down into a plasma state. Particle. The actual physical "clip" could probably supply hundreds of shots, but the part that really needs reloading is the power cell. If you look at the pulse carbine of rifle you see the thing that looks like a clip, that's the power cell.

That thing in the back is the power cell. The small circular thing stinking down between the grip and trigger in the "clip".

Their squad sizes and military organisation is based around multiples of 6, though.

Well, 3, really.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Their squad sizes and military organisation is based around multiples of 6, though.

Well, 3, really.

Yes, but their number system is base 8. It was even in the old codex, it had the tau alphabet with numbers 0-7. That's why hazards are XV9, because they are literally taken up to 11 (someone at FW has a sense of humor). It would be based on 3 beause
a: That's how th eules were desingned, just imagine 4 man crisis teams
b: Fluffwise, that's the optimum number in a team for tau, it's big enough to take on threats, but small enough to function thoroughly. Think about the sive of the clip, we won't make a clip size 30 if we can make it 34 without undo cost or excessive clunkyness.

Edit: I don't have my old 'dex on hand but this is from lexicum and I think it's right. I'll scan the codex in a bit.



Edit: Wait, is this the FW game or the FW book, because the game is not canon in the slightest when it comes to actual gameplay (the pulse rifle is assault rifle with crappy range a that doesn't do much damge and the rail rifle is as strong as a raingun, what is this? And it's not a pulse carbine, it's plainly a rifle, despite the cover art showing differently.)

The human technologies are easier to explain because they are based on our own concepts. For example. Plasma guns would need high powered magnets to control the flow of ions. To get these, we need superconductors that need to be extremely cold. If the temperature of a super conductor raises just a few degrees it causes resistance which causes more heat and more resistance, causing the magnet to stop working and the plasma to shoot off in the wrong direction (if it doesn't explode all together.) So on would expect "it gets hot" to come from plasma weapons and not traditional ammunition.

Eldar shuriken technology involves shooting mono-layered disks at the target. So basically you need a substance with strong bond connecting the atoms together in a flat disk and weak bonds holding the molecules together. This could be similar to graphite which is formed from carbon sheets held together by very weak forces that allows the graphite to slide off easily.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Edit: Wait, is this the FW game or the FW book, because the game is not canon in the slightest when it comes to actual gameplay (the pulse rifle is assault rifle with crappy range a that doesn't do much damge and the rail rifle is as strong as a raingun, what is this? And it's not a pulse carbine, it's plainly a rifle, despite the cover art showing differently.)

The game.

Also, you upgrade to a Pathfinder Carbine at the end of the first mission (though sadly, the markerlight is nonfunctional).

Other than that, I will concede your points - including the one about how terrible a game Fire Warrior really was. The katana was just the final straw. Rail Rifles are the only good thing to come out of it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Edit: Wait, is this the FW game or the FW book, because the game is not canon in the slightest when it comes to actual gameplay (the pulse rifle is assault rifle with crappy range a that doesn't do much damge and the rail rifle is as strong as a raingun, what is this? And it's not a pulse carbine, it's plainly a rifle, despite the cover art showing differently.)

The game.

Also, you upgrade to a Pathfinder Carbine at the end of the first mission (though sadly, the markerlight is nonfunctional).

Other than that, I will concede your points - including the one about how terrible a game Fire Warrior really was. The katana was just the final straw. Rail Rifles are the only good thing to come out of it.

Well the orca did, I quite like the orca. It has no weaponry, but it's cheap, survivable, and it's a great transport (especially when you figure out i can transport broadsides, albeit counting as 3 models each).

Although you have to admit killing space marines with a bonding knife is hilarious, especially when you consider you are tau fire warrior during his first day of live combat..

I loved that game, I got it when it was kind of old though, and it's been a long time sense I've played it...

The game might have been gash, but the voice talent rocked

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379582/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Full thread here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/573286.page

Demonstrating that there is absolutely no problem with the concept of the bolter

There is considering the bolter round works as a bullet THEN a rocket, which wouldnt work at all....

the world is full of 2 stage rockets of all kinds of sizes that say you're wrong.The RPG7 in fact works in exactly the same way as a bolter is supposed to

Here is a diagram of the pulse rifle.

 lambsandlions wrote:
Here is a diagram of the pulse rifle.

Eastern empire! That guy does have some really nice ideas. I really like his idea on why tau blood is blue.
Edit:
http://eastern-empire.com/
Here is it on higher quality




Not technically canon to the letter but it is based on the canon.


Also look at this: Tau Blood : A hypothesis on colour

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Full thread here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/573286.page

Demonstrating that there is absolutely no problem with the concept of the bolter

There is considering the bolter round works as a bullet THEN a rocket, which wouldnt work at all....

We've been over this. There is nothing complicated about it besides you seemingly deciding to ignore every single argument that would prove you wrong. We had an entire thread on the subject.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Full thread here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/573286.page

Demonstrating that there is absolutely no problem with the concept of the bolter

There is considering the bolter round works as a bullet THEN a rocket, which wouldnt work at all....

We've been over this. There is nothing complicated about it besides you seemingly deciding to ignore every single argument that would prove you wrong. We had an entire thread on the subject.

Except all your evidence assumes we can miniaturize designs and change their purpose with ease. I huge missile is not proof of a bolter round, artillery is not proof we can make bolters. I ignore your "evidence" because its based on "we almost have" not we actually have. At least I have shown you the closest thing to a bolter that actually works. At least my evidence is based on the same concept, not the concept for artillery, missiles and so forth.

The bolt gun, as designed, will not work.

I wont get into this argument for that is not what I posted that gun for. So get stop dreaming dude... its unhealthy in large amounts

 Swastakowey wrote:

The bolt gun, as designed, will not work.

This is the crux of it all. You make this statement, other respond with evidence that a bolter can work and that we currently have all the component technology needed its just not been cobbled together because we currently have no need for them, and then you start saying that none of it counts because we don't currently manufacture bolter-type weapons and therefore they could never exist. Its either a really bad circular argument, or trolling of the 1st degree!

 Flinty wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

The bolt gun, as designed, will not work.

This is the crux of it all. You make this statement, other respond with evidence that a bolter can work and that we currently have all the component technology needed its just not been cobbled together because we currently have no need for them, and then you start saying that none of it counts because we don't currently manufacture bolter-type weapons and therefore they could never exist. Its either a really bad circular argument, or trolling of the 1st degree!

So your saying the evidence you provided can be made small enough and work?

What about the HUGE problem of the shell working like a bullet THEN becoming a rocket mid flight, let alone exploding after impact... all in one tiny shell. If it where a rocket to begin with, had no after impact explosive then it would work. But not as its designed. they would have to change the fluff of the bolter for it to work. (which they already have). Because AS I STATED VERY CLEARLY we have almost bolters, but full on fluff bolters arent possible. Even if they were made small caliber.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

The bolt gun, as designed, will not work.

This is the crux of it all. You make this statement, other respond with evidence that a bolter can work and that we currently have all the component technology needed its just not been cobbled together because we currently have no need for them, and then you start saying that none of it counts because we don't currently manufacture bolter-type weapons and therefore they could never exist. Its either a really bad circular argument, or trolling of the 1st degree!

So your saying the evidence you provided can be made small enough and work?

What about the HUGE problem of the shell working like a bullet THEN becoming a rocket mid flight, let alone exploding after impact... all in one tiny shell. If it where a rocket to begin with, had no after impact explosive then it would work. But not as its designed. they would have to change the fluff of the bolter for it to work. (which they already have). Because AS I STATED VERY CLEARLY we have almost bolters, but full on fluff bolters arent possible. Even if they were made small caliber.

What you posted shows that it can and dose work, it is just expensive and not very accurate at the moment. All you need to add is a high explosive element, which is easy in the space given. These things are bigger than something like a .577 Nitro Express. They are huge hulking chunks of metal even in a bolt pistol. I don't see why we couldn't make a bolt gun now if someone felt the need. It would be be expensive, but I don't see it not working, especially at the ranges we use in 40k. Even in the 40k universe they are expensive weapons, hence why only the very best get them.

On to another subject, Ork tech. Allot of stuff is based on jokes and poking fun at things. The way I see ork tech working "because they believe it to" is like the car that you spend hours trying to fix, and only starts after much shouting, swearing and hitting stuff with a hammer. It is the same sort of thing with the Ad Mech. Every engineer knows that you can do everything right, but you will still pray that something works when you first start it up. In that case, like the car that won't start on a cold morning until you turn the key for the 6th time and say "please please please start! Please!!!!".

Ork Tech however is mostly very crude, but functional. There is a mix of innate knowledge, the gestalt field that keeps things that are on the verge of braking from completely collapsing and orks just not caring. I do think this is part of it. Humans call something broken because it makes a funny noise or a bit falls off, so it must go to be treated by the Ad Mech as the machine spirit is in pain. Orks just keep using it with no mechanical sympathy. To a human it is broken, to an Ork it is working, possibly even better as it is making even more noise.

i love that theory. and it kind of makes sense as well we see a lot of stuff as broken because something hass fallen off.. even if that thing is asthetic. bet again you can just twist it around. "oh no my muzzle has fallen off" translation "ME BIT AT END 'AZ FALLIN OWFF... DAT REKOIL IZ MAD DOE PROPPA DAKKA NAAA"

its a nice sentiment. oh and for you bolter haters/lovers a bolter round is said to be a .75 caliber round



the one on the far right is the round fired by a thunderbolt fighter they can rip through tanks... but yeah .75 is similar to a 12 guage shot gun shell... which isnt small

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

The bolt gun, as designed, will not work.

This is the crux of it all. You make this statement, other respond with evidence that a bolter can work and that we currently have all the component technology needed its just not been cobbled together because we currently have no need for them, and then you start saying that none of it counts because we don't currently manufacture bolter-type weapons and therefore they could never exist. Its either a really bad circular argument, or trolling of the 1st degree!

So your saying the evidence you provided can be made small enough and work?

What about the HUGE problem of the shell working like a bullet THEN becoming a rocket mid flight, let alone exploding after impact... all in one tiny shell. If it where a rocket to begin with, had no after impact explosive then it would work. But not as its designed. they would have to change the fluff of the bolter for it to work. (which they already have). Because AS I STATED VERY CLEARLY we have almost bolters, but full on fluff bolters arent possible. Even if they were made small caliber.

What you posted shows that it can and dose work, it is just expensive and not very accurate at the moment. All you need to add is a high explosive element, which is easy in the space given. These things are bigger than something like a .577 Nitro Express. They are huge hulking chunks of metal even in a bolt pistol. I don't see why we couldn't make a bolt gun now if someone felt the need. It would be be expensive, but I don't see it not working, especially at the ranges we use in 40k. Even in the 40k universe they are expensive weapons, hence why only the very best get them.

On to another subject, Ork tech. Allot of stuff is based on jokes and poking fun at things. The way I see ork tech working "because they believe it to" is like the car that you spend hours trying to fix, and only starts after much shouting, swearing and hitting stuff with a hammer. It is the same sort of thing with the Ad Mech. Every engineer knows that you can do everything right, but you will still pray that something works when you first start it up. In that case, like the car that won't start on a cold morning until you turn the key for the 6th time and say "please please please start! Please!!!!".

Ork Tech however is mostly very crude, but functional. There is a mix of innate knowledge, the gestalt field that keeps things that are on the verge of braking from completely collapsing and orks just not caring. I do think this is part of it. Humans call something broken because it makes a funny noise or a bit falls off, so it must go to be treated by the Ad Mech as the machine spirit is in pain. Orks just keep using it with no mechanical sympathy. To a human it is broken, to an Ork it is working, possibly even better as it is making even more noise.

No you are wrong, the one I posted fires nothing like the bolter. The bolter fires a bullet which in mid air a rocket goes off after which there is explosives that go off after impact. Nothing like we have today. The gun I showed was the only way a bolter will work, which is rocket propelled from the start and doesnt have explosives etc etc (or the round would have to be huge, but thats not to say impossible). Its very different.

And orks are just messed up haha...

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

The bolt gun, as designed, will not work.

This is the crux of it all. You make this statement, other respond with evidence that a bolter can work and that we currently have all the component technology needed its just not been cobbled together because we currently have no need for them, and then you start saying that none of it counts because we don't currently manufacture bolter-type weapons and therefore they could never exist. Its either a really bad circular argument, or trolling of the 1st degree!

So your saying the evidence you provided can be made small enough and work?

What about the HUGE problem of the shell working like a bullet THEN becoming a rocket mid flight, let alone exploding after impact... all in one tiny shell. If it where a rocket to begin with, had no after impact explosive then it would work. But not as its designed. they would have to change the fluff of the bolter for it to work. (which they already have). Because AS I STATED VERY CLEARLY we have almost bolters, but full on fluff bolters arent possible. Even if they were made small caliber.

What you posted shows that it can and dose work, it is just expensive and not very accurate at the moment. All you need to add is a high explosive element, which is easy in the space given. These things are bigger than something like a .577 Nitro Express. They are huge hulking chunks of metal even in a bolt pistol. I don't see why we couldn't make a bolt gun now if someone felt the need. It would be be expensive, but I don't see it not working, especially at the ranges we use in 40k. Even in the 40k universe they are expensive weapons, hence why only the very best get them.

On to another subject, Ork tech. Allot of stuff is based on jokes and poking fun at things. The way I see ork tech working "because they believe it to" is like the car that you spend hours trying to fix, and only starts after much shouting, swearing and hitting stuff with a hammer. It is the same sort of thing with the Ad Mech. Every engineer knows that you can do everything right, but you will still pray that something works when you first start it up. In that case, like the car that won't start on a cold morning until you turn the key for the 6th time and say "please please please start! Please!!!!".

Ork Tech however is mostly very crude, but functional. There is a mix of innate knowledge, the gestalt field that keeps things that are on the verge of braking from completely collapsing and orks just not caring. I do think this is part of it. Humans call something broken because it makes a funny noise or a bit falls off, so it must go to be treated by the Ad Mech as the machine spirit is in pain. Orks just keep using it with no mechanical sympathy. To a human it is broken, to an Ork it is working, possibly even better as it is making even more noise.

No you are wrong, the one I posted fires nothing like the bolter. The bolter fires a bullet which in mid air a rocket goes off after which there is explosives that go off after impact. Nothing like we have today. The gun I showed was the only way a bolter will work, which is rocket propelled from the start and doesnt have explosives etc etc (or the round would have to be huge, but thats not to say impossible). Its very different.

And orks are just messed up haha...

Are you really that thick, or are you just a troll that annoys everything that smashed that position in the last thread? No, we drowned a thread in these posts. We can build a functioning heavy bolter with modern technology, it's easy as hell to build within a .75-1.00 caliber "bullet" and would work perfectly fine. The reason why we don't have bolters is because they're stupid. The only reason why W40K uses them instead of plasma is because of the rule of cool and the IOM R&D is simply archeology, not innovation. All you need to do to make a functioning bolter is take a modern gyrojet round, slap a blasting cap on it, then bam, you've got a bolter. That's all it takes. Your constant refuting of this is either simple ignorance of modern technology (well, "modern", as we've have it since the seventies) or you simply being a troll, and I'm leaning to the latter now. Since this seems to be difficult-


Bolter = miniature .75 missile with an HE charge on the tip, gryojets on the back, loaded in a cartridge with gunpowder.

Gryojet Round + HE Charge on the tip + Gunpowder Cartridge = Bolter.

This is not hard to understand at all. Bolts are extremely simple in design and we could start producing them right now if they weren't horribly inefficient weapons. I really don't know how this is continuing despite that entire thread of us building up arguments for you to only take the goalpost and run away, or ignore posts completely.