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I would love to know where these tabletop wargames are that are "1/2 the cost of GW". Warmachine? Nope, their minis cost about the same price as GW's. Flames of War? Not really that big of a price difference either. Mantic games are cheaper (not by half though), but the quality is signficantly less IMO.

The difference is in the number of models needed to get started, and in all honesty, GW doesn't insist you play 2000 point games, the community just chooses to play these larger games because bigger games allow for more elaborate army builds. There is nothing preventing you from playing 1000 point games or less.

Simple fact is, tabletop wargaming has never been a cheap hobby. The fact that it IS a hobby opens up comparisons to other hobbies, especially in the modeling aspect. Compare 40K or Fantasy to RC cars and planes, or slot racing. Suddenly, things start to come into perspective. Yes, some of GW's kits are insanely priced (such as the previously mentioned Dire Avengers), but the same could be said for many of the competitor's models. Heck, check out any of the other non-game system specific miniature producers, and you will see some truly staggering prices that will really open your eyes.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I would love to know where these tabletop wargames are that are "1/2 the cost of GW". Warmachine? Nope, their minis cost about the same price as GW's. Flames of War? Not really that big of a price difference either. Mantic games are cheaper (not by half though), but the quality is signficantly less IMO.

$8 PDF:
http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=7

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Warlord
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/DarkHeavenLegends
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones

So there ya go.

 bosky wrote:


$8 PDF:

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:

Having no one else to play with... Priceless.

 pretre wrote:

 bosky wrote:


$8 PDF:

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:

Having no one else to play with... Priceless.

You should move to a city

Also he was asking for wargames that are half the price of 40k. I gave one as a very simple, rudimentary example. There are more, people just focus too much on 40k and Warmachine.

 bosky wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 bosky wrote:


$8 PDF:

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:

Having no one else to play with... Priceless.

You should move to a city

I live in a city metro. It was a joke around the fact that it is easy to find a game of 40k/fantasy but much harder to find a game of song of blades and heroes.

There are, of course, cheap alternatives to anything. In this case, you lose out on the ubiquity of GW games.

 pretre wrote:

 bosky wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 bosky wrote:


$8 PDF:

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:

Having no one else to play with... Priceless.

You should move to a city

I live in a city metro. It was a joke around the fact that it is easy to find a game of 40k/fantasy but much harder to find a game of song of blades and heroes.

There are, of course, cheap alternatives to anything. In this case, you lose out on the ubiquity of GW games.

All it takes is a dedicated fan to get a game going at a hobby store. There might be other people at the store thinking "This sure is expensive, but no one plays anything else!". Heck maybe 80% of the players are thinking that, and just need someone to take the initiative and start organizing alternatives. Either that or play with friends you know instead of strangers. They're easier to convince, and probably have the same interests.

And although you might say "of course there are cheap alternatives", the previous poster was literally asking where the "1/2 wargames" are, so I provided an example. Similarly something from Two Hour Wargames might be a bit closer to mass battle, but at a lower price since you can use minis from any line.

I think a lot of the problem with GW is not even the price of the minis, since with friends you can just proxy in something else, but the books and codexes. Can't really proxy those.

 pretre wrote:

 bosky wrote:


$8 PDF:

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:

Having no one else to play with... Priceless.

Well, it does have "high solo playability"... they even said that one with the caps-lock on so you know it's a major selling point.

a simple solution is that GW prices are high because they need to make a profit if this where the 80's there would be far more people playing 40k but gaming in general shifted to console and PCs.

But if GW days where numbered then they would survive based on lowering prices and reducing models.

I agree with what your saying but GW are very insistent on how online retailers can sell and companies that buy wholesale recieve a discount because it keeps GW active in places where there are no stores only indie stores.

I am really lucky because in my area a former GW manager set up a gaming night in a local nightclub where people come from all over the play and every army going is used. The atmosphere is one of hardcore players enjoying the game. In GW stores its mainly begginers and kids.

So i think that GW should make more of an effort to host club nights where people can play in every city.

Warmachine figures cost roughly the same (give or take) but you need half as many. For what buys you an entry-level 40k army you can buy a standard-sized Warmachine/Hordes army and be able to play differently by swapping out a single character versus buying another few hundred dollars.

Warlord Games' figures are about half, Mantic has already been said (quality nothwithstanding, some of their quality is better some is worse), anything from Perry is half as much, gives you more and is the same quality.

Shall I price it out entirely for a valid comparison? And please stop comparing NON-WARGAMING hobbies with 40k/Fantasy and trying to use it to justify that 40k isn't overpriced.

 bosky wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I would love to know where these tabletop wargames are that are "1/2 the cost of GW". Warmachine? Nope, their minis cost about the same price as GW's. Flames of War? Not really that big of a price difference either. Mantic games are cheaper (not by half though), but the quality is signficantly less IMO.

$8 PDF:
http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=7

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Warlord
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/DarkHeavenLegends
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones

So there ya go.

Hmmm, infantry-sized single models for Dark Heaven Legends are typically $4-$10, how is that 1/2 the price of 40K again? Single infantry-sized models for 40K run about $4 a piece in most cases (box of 10 is usually $40). You are comparing Reaper's prices to GW's prices by using the overpriced GW character models as a blanket price standard, when in fact, that is a very small portion of the typical 40K or fantasy army. A game that can be played with fewer models is not the same as "cheaper".

Compare sizes, not price per model since GW doesn't seem to actually have any formula for price per model. e.g. Compare a normal sized WHFB unit with a normal sized unit in a comparable wargame, and GW's will almost always be double price because they box them in an insane way.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 bosky wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I would love to know where these tabletop wargames are that are "1/2 the cost of GW". Warmachine? Nope, their minis cost about the same price as GW's. Flames of War? Not really that big of a price difference either. Mantic games are cheaper (not by half though), but the quality is signficantly less IMO.

$8 PDF:
http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=7

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Warlord
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/DarkHeavenLegends
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones

So there ya go.

Hmmm, infantry-sized single models for Dark Heaven Legends are typically $4-$10, how is that 1/2 the price of 40K again? Single infantry-sized models for 40K run about $4 a piece in most cases (box of 10 is usually $40). You are comparing Reaper's prices to GW's prices by using the overpriced GW character models as a blanket price standard, when in fact, that is a very small portion of the typical 40K or fantasy army. A game that can be played with fewer models is not the same as "cheaper".

Well Bones is less than half price, for ALL figures, not just those in specially priced box sets.

But yes some of the basic troops for GW are fairly priced, like a plain Tactical Squad for the $40/10 you talk about. But I don't see much else costing that. Death Company $33 for 5. Let alone stuff like a $40 IG heavy weapon team, $22 IG Ogryn, $50/5 CSM Termies. Vehicles and beasts get even crazier. And you may want to ignore GW special characters to help your argument , but they are still ridiculously overpriced. The fact that Eldrad is $21 for a single mini almost makes 40k feel a bit like "pay to win".

Another factor are the rules themselves, not just minis. The core 40k rulebook is $75, plus another $50x2 for two codexes. That's a lot more than most electronic copy rules (even factoring in printing). Or even a free rule set like Infinity, where you're instantly saving $175. Everything adds up.

I know you specifically said less models doesn't make it cheaper, so I wasn't trying to focus on that aspect. Obviously a skirmish game is cheaper to get into than a mass battle game. I was just looking at direct mini costs, not "costs to setup and play a 2,000 point game compared to 5 dudes with swords running around".

Less models DO make it cheaper, because GW has consistently increased the number of models required for 40k.

There are lots of mini games out there, some come and go. I personally love 40k have an eldar, ork, and marine army. but also play cheaper (and in a lot of ways better in my opinion games) malifaux is great, have a box and some figured for an army there. very well thought out and fun system but have only played a few games because nobody else plays it. I also loved infinity, grat games, cool models I would say much better rules than 40k... again have only ever played it with my models because nobody plays it. I am learning warmachine and warmahordes to they seem on par with 40k but i think 40k will outlast em all simply because people are very attached to the game and there are alot of players for it.

that said when i build a 3d printer i will be making my own minis because I do not think they are worth what GW is charging.

there is so much incorrect in this thread I don't know where to begin. I'll just say that my city has 3 booming (multiple games going every day/night) flgs. there are others that exist but dont have public tables. two of them are in affluent areas, one in a working class area of town. the one in the blue collar neighborhood is the busiest, and often has to kick people out at 12-1 am on fri/sat nights.

as for gw, most of the posts I see analyzing the financial reports/stock prices/management decisions - come from people who have little to no understanding of the subject. gw is no where near the bottom falling out. I won't get into great detail but suffice to say they are making moves that a healthy company makes, not one that's on a slide.

as for the hobby. it is bigger today than it was 25 years ago. its had peaks and valleys, but so has nintendo, church attendance, and pop warner football participation.

tldr: don't arrive at a conclusion and then look for evidence to support it.

I'm considering getting into the gaming aspect of 40K, but right now, I'm enjoying the process of painting, assembling, and doing minor conversions to the models I own. Tracking down decent deals via local listings is also a highlight for me. I'll keep painting regardless if the gaming aspect goes under (not that it will, at least not anytime soon).

I really prefer buying in a local store. Theres nothing like the environment and being able to actually look at what your buying in person. I hate buying online....

More places than ever to play around here.

sand.zzz wrote:

as for gw, most of the posts I see analyzing the financial reports/stock prices/management decisions - come from people who have little to no understanding of the subject. gw is no where near the bottom falling out. I won't get into great detail but suffice to say they are making moves that a healthy company makes, not one that's on a slide

Mind telling us what makes you more qualified to talk about GWs financials than any of us then?

Or some explanation about how falling sales volume isn't that bad?

Or point us to some other, successful, companies sending C&D letters to fan sites, shutting down any direct means of customer feedback (facebook and Twitter), imposing crippling restrictions on their trade partners or ignoring their competition?

Boniface wrote:
Just wanted thoughts on this.

I've recently been thinking that the future of 40k (and other tabletop games) could be in trouble.
The trouble I speak of is the lack of places to play the game.

I'm sure there are many places/people who would like to provide tables etc. to the community, however I think the days might be limited.
The reason... The cost involved.

I imagine running a place designed for these types of hobbies is costly (size requirements) and with war gaming being a more niche uptake hobby, I do wonder if the stores/places can survive.

With places online being cheaper to buy stuff the average consumer will likely choose to get things online, and even if not there are only so many boxes we will buy.

I don't want this to happen but it seems only logical that in a time with ever increasing costs (to buy/produce models and rent shops) that it isn't sustainable.
Also without the shops how will people get into the hobby?

What do you guys think?

I don't really get why people think there need to be brick and mortar stores to play the game in, to start up Warhammer. We didn't have any stores in my part of the country back when I decided to get into the hobby ~12 years ago. There was White Dwarf, I bought the first copy by mistake as I thought it was a roleplaying magazine. But it got me hooked.
Years later I convinced a group of friends, we talked to others who were in the hobby to get advice, we drove to another town and talked to the staff about what models we would need to start gaming at the 500 pts level. We ordered most off the interweb, bought some from stores. It was like, a character and a box of troops. We painted and played at our kitchen tables in the beginning. Had loads of fun.

Most people seem to start along with at least one friend. It makes sense to start at low cost levels, and slowly learn the game from there. Problem solved.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Compare sizes, not price per model since GW doesn't seem to actually have any formula for price per model. e.g. Compare a normal sized WHFB unit with a normal sized unit in a comparable wargame, and GW's will almost always be double price because they box them in an insane way.

I think this is the real issue. Its not necessarily that GW is overpriced as a whole, its just that their pricing is wildly inconsistent. They obviously price models based on their perceived effectiveness, or at the bare minimum, based on the model's FOC placement. The basic Troop selections are typically priced very competitively, while Elites are a bit pricier by comparison, and HQ models are probably the only ones that can truly be considered "overpriced" in comparison with the competition. The pricing of books is really not any more expensive than typical RPG books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Less models DO make it cheaper, because GW has consistently increased the number of models required for 40k.

That's not really true at all. You can play a game of 40K with 11 models for marines and other more "elite" armies, 21 models for horde style armies such as Daemons, Orks, or Nids. This has been pretty much the same since 2nd edition if I recall. All GW has done is give us more options (which is what people wanted). The community has increased the model count by wanting to play larger games and maximize their armies, NOT GW.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
The pricing of books is really not any more expensive than typical RPG books.

Arguable about RPG pricing, but not really the point. The point is compared to other wargames their books + codexes to get started are insanely expensive. As I mentioned in my previous post some games (ie: Infinity) provide the rules for free. Others are inexpensive PDFs (even after cost of printing yourself). That isn't even factoring in boardgame + wargame hybrids like the X-Wing Miniatures starter (and great deal booster ships).

You can't tell me 40k's $175 for a 2 player game, without any models or terrain at all, is some kind of steal?

I agree with your general vibe that a lot of "GW is overpriced!" is overblown or misunderstood. But I think you aren't fully seeing reason on how much of their stuff IS overpriced. Namely anything but troops

They might be comparable in price to an RPG book but they aren't an RPG book, and require significantly more investment than any RPG, which is part of the problem. The Core 3 D&D books (PHB, DMG, MM) were like $30 a piece so you needed $90 up front if you were going to run, throw in another $30 for a setting book so that's comparatively priced but it's also all you needed; you could play for years and never spend more than that $120 on books. 40k requires $125 minimum before you ever buy a single model, and you can't really play without the models (I suppose you could in theory use cardboard cutouts or something cheap to proxy figures).

If you only needed a handful of miniatures per side, I could maybe excuse the prices (maybe). When you need to spend upwards of $300 or so just to get started, then charging an additional $125 just for the rules to play is taking the mickey.

 pretre wrote:

 bosky wrote:


$8 PDF:

Fantasy minis ranging from $2 to $10:

Having no one else to play with... Priceless.

Weird.....that's been 40K for me for almost 20 years.........

That's not really true at all. You can play a game of 40K with 11 models for marines and other more "elite" armies, 21 models for horde style armies such as Daemons, Orks, or Nids. This has been pretty much the same since 2nd edition if I recall. All GW has done is give us more options (which is what people wanted). The community has increased the model count by wanting to play larger games and maximize their armies, NOT GW.

While it's entirely possible that you can play games of 40K with drastically lower points values (I do!), GW has worked very hard to keep the "normal" range of gaming in the 1500-2000pt realm. While ever dropping the values of the models in game, so you have to make larger and larger armies to his that "official" game size. A Space marine is 50% the points value that it was in 2nd edition. A tactical squad with absolutely no upgrades was 300pts.

http://gsa.thegamernation.org/2012/08/01/games-workshop-profits-and-why-i-dont-like-public-traded-game-companies/

This answers the ops original question.

I don't see why people are against comparing 40k to other hobbies. The truth is that the other hobbies exist whether you close your eyes to them or not. And if I feel that 40k is too expensive then yeah, I will jump ship and start snowboarding or paintballing again. But nope, I still complain about the price while I fork out $50 for five little plastic dudes.

If we keep buying stuff at these absurdly high prices then we can only blame ourselves for liking it too much and being addicted. (haha).

However I am completely sick of all the new stuff that gw is producing that any army can take multiple of. It's obviously a money grab decision that changes the game so people either have to dump their life savings to keep up with competition or become a casual gamer. I am deciding to become the latter as I'm sick of the competitive scene and want to return to playing the models I think are cool instead of only the ones that are strong. *end rant*

yukondal wrote:
I don't see why people are against comparing 40k to other hobbies. The truth is that the other hobbies exist whether you close your eyes to them or not. And if I feel that 40k is too expensive then yeah, I will jump ship and start snowboarding or paintballing again. But nope, I still complain about the price while I fork out $50 for five little plastic dudes.

If we keep buying stuff at these absurdly high prices then we can only blame ourselves for liking it too much and being addicted. (haha).

People don't like comparing 40k to other hobbies because 40k, despite what GW wants you to think, is not a hobby. It is only a part of a wider hobby that is tabletop miniature wargaming.

You're comparing a sub category of a hobby to entirely different hobbies as wholes when you have plenty of other sub categories in the same hobby to compare it with.

If you want to say tabletop miniature wargaming is a cheaper hobby than snowboarding I'll happily discuss that with you, but GW/40k are not hobbies unto themselves.

I can understand some of the European people not understanding the original post. But You American, Canadian,Aussies
mustn't be able to read. With Games Workshop moving to one man stores, people in England do not get enough opportunities to play.
The cost of commercial rents, make setting up gaming stores unlikely. Our houses are smaller so basements are unheard of. Will this kill 40k Here. Please try again