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Just wanted thoughts on this.

I've recently been thinking that the future of 40k (and other tabletop games) could be in trouble.
The trouble I speak of is the lack of places to play the game.

I'm sure there are many places/people who would like to provide tables etc. to the community, however I think the days might be limited.
The reason... The cost involved.

I imagine running a place designed for these types of hobbies is costly (size requirements) and with war gaming being a more niche uptake hobby, I do wonder if the stores/places can survive.

With places online being cheaper to buy stuff the average consumer will likely choose to get things online, and even if not there are only so many boxes we will buy.

I don't want this to happen but it seems only logical that in a time with ever increasing costs (to buy/produce models and rent shops) that it isn't sustainable.
Also without the shops how will people get into the hobby?

What do you guys think?

Yes GWs days are numbered but its the same way our days are numbered. Today 23

Social media.. friends in a basement. Get with it.

Not enough people are joining communities where they pay money and develop a communal terrain system and use the money to hire a location.

I hear GW is reducing the stores down to 1 man stores and so forth so for those many who play at these stores they just need to bite the bullet and put in the effort to build up a club and go from there.

A real club, with fees, a changing commitee, a constant location and events. Easier said then done but it means your hobby will continue as long as you have a willing community and to top it off you are in no way restricted in what you bring and have.

It just takes effort and time, not many people have it, but if there is a community it wont be hard to do. The only reason I have even stayed with the hobby is because of clubs like this. Once you belong to one pick up games at the shops dont seem very attractive.

But yes I see what you mean.

Yes, 40k's days are numbered. In fact, as of just ~4 days ago, 40k has numbered 10,000 days since it began.

As for the other stuff, let me guess, are you a teenager or twenty-something? I ask because when you're young, you tend to look at things like price, not value, and you tend to look for things organized for you, rather than organizing things yourself, and getting the best deal for something, rather than supporting institutions that you care about.

If you're younger than 30, you might see 40k as an insanely expensive hobby, that has no easy way to play it, and the internet is destroying everything that's not the internet. If you're older, you likely see a hobby that has up-front costs, but has great value, and is relatively easy to organize a group of people to play yourself, and is tied to a series of businesses that are worth supporting.

If you want a game that you can pirate from the internet and spend seconds before connected to a multiplayer game from the comfort of your own living room, then there are plenty of video game options out there for you. That doesn't mean 40k is going to disappear any time soon.

Table top gaming has grown in recent years; and significantly at that,

The future of 40k in particular is uncertain, and I'm a bit on the pessimistic side, but I don't think its going to die for the foreseeable future.

I have spent thousands of dollars over nearly 20 years of 40K, and have never once played in a store. I've only even been in one Games Workshop store, when I went to Seattle in 2000. There's not even one within 50 miles of where I live. For that matter, I don't even know of a commercial venue where I could play even if I wanted to.

If you're younger than 30, you might see 40k as an insanely expensive hobby, that has no easy way to play it, and the internet is destroying everything that's not the internet. If you're older, you likely see a hobby that has up-front costs, but has great value, and is relatively easy to organize a group of people to play yourself, and is tied to a series of businesses that are worth supporting.

Unfortunately I am 32, and still see it as an insanely expensive hobby. But much more so now than when I started.

I think the hobby will be fine. I just had a large group of guys over yesterday where we set up tables in the living room and spent the day gaming. Playing at the store is enjoyable, but its much more fun to have it at someones house, order pizza, beer etc and throw on a movie between/during games. Most of us are working with family's so we don't make it out to the stores until its time to purchase and our play time is hit and miss. Right now i get to play about 1 day every couple months.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I have spent thousands of dollars over nearly 20 years of 40K, and have never once played in a store. I've only even been in one Games Workshop store, when I went to Seattle in 2000. There's not even one within 50 miles of where I live. For that matter, I don't even know of a commercial venue where I could play even if I wanted to.

If you're younger than 30, you might see 40k as an insanely expensive hobby, that has no easy way to play it, and the internet is destroying everything that's not the internet. If you're older, you likely see a hobby that has up-front costs, but has great value, and is relatively easy to organize a group of people to play yourself, and is tied to a series of businesses that are worth supporting.

Unfortunately I am 32, and still see it as an insanely expensive hobby. But much more so now than when I started.

This. I'm sorry but anyone who doesn't see 40k as an insanely expensive hobby is being ignorant. It is insanely expensive, the rules are poor, you don't get a lot of value for your money (10 plastic figures in a box when you usually need 20 or more for WHFB, outright nuts pricing for 40k on pretty much everything), and the company doesn't give a damn about anything other than shilling the next big thing to get more people to buy.

Yes, their days are numbered if GW doesn't get a clue and stop basically price gouging and taking advantage of its customers, and stops writing bullcrap without any thought other than trying to sell.

Hmmm...... I am sure someone said this 20 years ago, about GW days are numbered. I know when I started on Warseer then came to DakkaDakka many years ago, people were say GW days were numbered.

Its just like the second coming of Christ. Many people say it, but it never comes.

40k isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future. Almost all of its problems are caused by GW's short-sightedness and incompetence, and those problems will likely kill GW in the near future, but the IP itself is strong and once GW dies it's very likely that someone else will buy it and continue the game. 40k will likely lose its dominant market share in the transition, but that's not really too much of a problem. Games like Infinity and Warmachine demonstrate clearly that you can have an enjoyable game and a stable community without 40k-level sales volume.

I never said it wasn't expensive. That said, relative to other adult hobbies, it definitely is. Drinking and smoking are way more expensive over time than 40k, and other more adult hobbies like woodworking, or being a gearhead have much, much higher up-front costs.

In any case, the real thing I'm talking about here is value. I spent $20 on a bottle of bombay sapphire gin 8 years ago, and it only lasted me a week or two. I also spent $30 on a box of guardsmen (which was considered abusively expensive then, because GW is a price whore, etc. etc.), and have gotten over 200 games in over many years with those same models. Much less the time I spent painting them or the time I spent writing battle reports with pictures of them.

Regardless of cost, 40k has a very high value, because you get so much out of it relative to other things.

If you're younger, the idea of something being worthwhile over the course of a decade just doesn't make sense. Once you've had a few decades, it does, generally speaking.

In the beginning of 40k..the faithful played at home..with blankets draped over books for hills..strings for roads, and blue paper for ponds..yea though the lichen was placed in kidney shaped clumps for forests..in thy mercy of LOS.

At the end, they shall again return to their homes and domiciles to play..there being safe from TFG, and small grubby hands that grab and drop precious hunks of resin and plastic...large plastic boards of battle will be provided, and much coin spent..and it will be good..because pizza and miniatures may be bought on the internet..and the masses needs to leave their man cave will have abated.

So it is written.

It's not really fair to justify how 40K is not overly expensive by comparing it to other luxury things that are also seen by many as too expensive.

Dire Avengers, Kroot, and Cadians would like to argue that point with you, when they lost half their content and stayed the same price, is some sort of weird attempt to disguise a disgusting price hike.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's not really fair to justify how 40K is not overly expensive by comparing it to other luxury things that are also seen by many as too expensive.

Dire Avengers, Kroot, and Cadians would like to argue that point with you, when they lost half their content and stayed the same price, is some sort of weird attempt to disguise a disgusting price hike.

it may not be fair, but its true. GW is a business and to get the best possible return for their investors they don't lookat what individuals think is a good price but rather at what the market can support. 40k has up front costs, but you can at least spread the payments over time. Compared to other hobbies such as golf, going to sports eventsor music gigs/festivals, or even computer gaming it comes out pretty well.

The price of a new Xbone or PS4 would net you a tidy army that would arguably have much greater longevity and you spend less money over time on rules updates than you do on games.

Yeah, I'm wondering what this vast sea of cheap hobbies are.

Are we only comparing 40k to drinking water, taking walks, sweeping the floor, and praying? Am I only surrounded by teenagers and presbyterians?

Why is comparing the cost of 40k to other hobbies even relevant?

I don't care what it costs to restore old cars, because I don't do that. I play table top games. And in the wargaming market, I know of plenty of games far cheaper than 40k, which a much more relevant comparison.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, I'm wondering what this vast sea of cheap hobbies are.

Are we only comparing 40k to drinking water, taking walks, sweeping the floor, and praying? Am I only surrounded by teenagers and presbyterians?

Yes, although just being shy of my twentieth year, I actually can recognize that W40K is "ZOMGZMYSOULDWOULDBECHEAPER". Sure, it's pretty expensive for what you get, but it's actually cheaper in the long run then something like AAA gaming, where you buy a new AAA multiplayer game every couple of months up front for sixty bucks, play it for a year, then switch to another when the multiplayer starts to die down. Meanwhile, the miniatures you have to W40K are permanent, you might just need to repaint them if they've been exposed to light for a greater amount of time. Plus so long as you have two playable armies, W40K is a far more social game compared to digital videogames or other forms of amusement, even as simple as drinking and smoking (which in that case, is also healthier).

It is indeed overpriced for what you get (unless their sculptors are getting something nuts like royalties per model or they pay them thousands, there's little justification for the price), but anyone from a first world nation with a steady job should be able to easily buy a set per month.

 Blacksails wrote:
Why is comparing the cost of 40k to other hobbies even relevant?

I don't care what it costs to restore old cars, because I don't do that. I play table top games. And in the wargaming market, I know of plenty of games far cheaper than 40k, which a much more relevant comparison.

Exactly and when you compare GW to other miniature games, the total cost of investment to get started in GW is way higher. Even if you can point to let's say a full Warmachine army as costing the same, that's a full army versus the beginner army. Compare to Kings of War and GW is 2x to 3x more expensive. I'm betting Flames of War runs about the same. Even other 28mm of comparable quality (see: Warlord Games and Perry Miniatures) give the same quality as GW for half the price and/or give you more figures to boot.

40k is expensive simply because GW has gotten away with it, and not because of any real value.

In the short term the answer is a simple nyet. 40k is still the largest and most popular tabletop wargame by a very large margin.
In the long term however, all things must eventually come to an end...
But for 40k, that time will not be anytime soon. 40k is expensive, but when compared to other hobbies, it is really not that bad. And GW's competitors are small and their prices are really not that much cheaper. Warmachine is about the same price level for example.

I had mentioned this in another thread, but I feel like GW is working hard to move 40k into the realm of purely large scale battles (with incidental skirmish games tagging along). They have this specific niche pretty well monopolized, with competing games like warmachine and infinity being focused largely on skirmish.

I feel like this is pushing 40k into an environment like the RTSes of my youth, of which my example will be Red Alert. The focus of those games inevitably revolves around big toys, while troops become rather meaningless. With new units like the Imperial Knights and a possible mandatory escalation in the near future, big toys will become increasingly relevant while small units are less combat effective.

As a result I believe consumers will start to look at purchasing small units with a cost (in $) versus effectiveness mindset more than ever. And this may drive regular games of 40k into large unit slugfests. Whether people will enjoy this direction for 40k will become apparent in the next few years.

WayneTheGame wrote:

This. I'm sorry but anyone who doesn't see 40k as an insanely expensive hobby is being ignorant. It is insanely expensive, the rules are poor, you don't get a lot of value for your money (10 plastic figures in a box when you usually need 20 or more for WHFB, outright nuts pricing for 40k on pretty much everything), and the company doesn't give a damn about anything other than shilling the next big thing to get more people to buy.

Yes, their days are numbered if GW doesn't get a clue and stop basically price gouging and taking advantage of its customers, and stops writing bullcrap without any thought other than trying to sell.

Collecting plastic toys is far from an insanely expensive hobby. And calling people who disagree ignorant is insulting. GW models are highly priced in their market but you need to have a look around at other hobbies and see what people with real money spend their disposable income on.

 Ugavine wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

This. I'm sorry but anyone who doesn't see 40k as an insanely expensive hobby is being ignorant. It is insanely expensive, the rules are poor, you don't get a lot of value for your money (10 plastic figures in a box when you usually need 20 or more for WHFB, outright nuts pricing for 40k on pretty much everything), and the company doesn't give a damn about anything other than shilling the next big thing to get more people to buy.

Yes, their days are numbered if GW doesn't get a clue and stop basically price gouging and taking advantage of its customers, and stops writing bullcrap without any thought other than trying to sell.

Collecting plastic toys is far from an insanely expensive hobby. And calling people who disagree ignorant is insulting. GW models are highly priced in their market but you need to have a look around at other hobbies and see what people with real money spend their disposable income on.

It's stupid to compare other hobbies with miniature wargames; how about comparing GW's wargames to other wargames instead of comparing apples to oranges and thinking that it's a valid comparison.

Why are people comparing GW to entirely unrelated hobbies?
If you compare them to other companies within the modeling and tabletop wargaming hobbies there is no way to justify what they charge. Equal quality models cost half what GW charge and for the same price as GW you can get stuff technically and objectively superior by a good margin.

Price debates again....errrrrrryday haha

Honestly it is hard for stores to stay open if they have just started. You have to make sure there is enough people within the area that will come and buy products at the local store.
I think you are also thinking of it as the FLGS stores are ONLY selling warhammer products......that is rarely the case. A successful business model never puts all its eggs in one basket. They make their money by spreading out where they recieve their money whether that be GW products, other miniature games such as warmachine/hordes, kings of war, board games, cards, model cars/tanks etc etc etc.

The production of GW models is cheap....they just increase prices to increase profits (which isn't the case since their revenue from 2013 was down about 3 million pounds give or take if I recall from 2012 pre-tax profits) they just increase prices to make up for lack of profit.....whacky model if you ask me.
40K and fantasy will continue to roll on but its just a question of how much of the market they will control with everything going on now with other tabletop games.

Stores will stay open if they diversify their stock....that's about all.

Yes. 40k's days are numbered. Eventually everything dies.

Blacksails wrote:Why is comparing the cost of 40k to other hobbies even relevant

Because without perspective it's easy to fall into a myopic, even solipsistic death spiral of selfish irrationalism.

You can't accurately judge the value of something without comparing it to other things. If you look at nothing more than what the price of 40k was, and what it is, it's easy to fall into the trap of 40k being a bad value because the product is the same (even though it's actually gotten better), while the price has increased.

If you take that same cost increase of 40k and compare it to the cost increase of seeing a movie in a theatre, or in the immense added value of being a durable good compared to a one-time experience, then the price of 40k can still go up, and it can also be a good (or even better) value than it was before.

 Ailaros wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Why is comparing the cost of 40k to other hobbies even relevant

Because without perspective it's easy to fall into a myopic, even solipsistic death spiral of selfish irrationalism.

You can't accurately judge the value of something without comparing it to other things. If you look at nothing more than what the price of 40k was, and what it is, it's easy to fall into the trap of 40k being a bad value because the product is the same (even though it's actually gotten better), while the price has increased.

If you take that same cost increase of 40k and compare it to the cost increase of seeing a movie in a theatre, or in the immense added value of being a durable good compared to a one-time experience, then the price of 40k can still go up, and it can also be a good (or even better) value than it was before.

You can compare 40k to other WARGAMES and show that GW is overpriced crap, which is a much more relevant comparison than comparing a wargame to movies/video games and unrelated hobbies.

It's nowhere near relevant to point to 40k's increased cost and say oh but it gives you X many years of enjoyment versus a one-time movie, but it's certainly relevant to point out that I can buy a full army from Mantic Games for the price of GW's rulebook, codex and a single box or so of figures.

To put it another way, I'm not comparing 40k of 10 years ago to 40k today and saying it's overpriced, I'm comparing 40k today to virtually every other wargames company that somehow manage to charge reasonable rates while making a profit and saying 40k is overpriced. Compare what GW sells to Wargames Factory, or Warlord, or Perry or some of Mantic's better sprues (Undead and Orcs spring to mind) and GW looks like a scam in comparison.

 Ailaros wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Why is comparing the cost of 40k to other hobbies even relevant

Because without perspective it's easy to fall into a myopic, even solipsistic death spiral of selfish irrationalism.

You can't accurately judge the value of something without comparing it to other things. If you look at nothing more than what the price of 40k was, and what it is, it's easy to fall into the trap of 40k being a bad value because the product is the same (even though it's actually gotten better), while the price has increased.

If you take that same cost increase of 40k and compare it to the cost increase of seeing a movie in a theatre, or in the immense added value of being a durable good compared to a one-time experience, then the price of 40k can still go up, and it can also be a good (or even better) value than it was before.

Sure, but wouldn't it be a far better comparison to use other wargames as a point of reference?

As much as yachting makes 40k look pocket change, I can neither afford a yacht, nor have an interest in owning one. I also live in the middle of the prairies at the moment, but that's my own mistake. However, looking at the cost per model of other games, or the value you get for the same price, or the buy in cost, or the quality of the game, 40k doesn't look so cheap.

The simple fact is that you can buy far, far less 40K material for what you make for a living, versus even five years ago if you were making the same amount. And by and large (but not definitively) that margin has gone up a greater amount in less time than other competing miniatures companies.

Also, the rules and associated material that GW prints nowadays is not the same quality/feel as that which got them into their position in the first place.

Sure, but wouldn't it be a far better comparison to use other wargames as a point of reference?

No, because then it's possible to find competitors that are priced better and/or growing more healthily than GW, which disproves that GW is such a huge deal to get into.

Your typical American household has less money to blow on plastic army mens than it has since the mid-90's to early 2000s.

Random graphic:



So, GW responds by increasing prices at a quicker pace than inflation which leads to decreased sales volume which in turn results in steeper price increases to make up for lost volume....etc.

The number of people on food stamps (government dole) has risen from 32million to 47million.

The middle class, you know those people that used to buy their stuff is shrinking and is expected to disappear sometime in the near future (just shades of poor and he uber-rich.



People struggling to pay bills and feed themselves generally don't buy toys.