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2014/03/16 13:50:16
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: Attached is a screen cap of the rule in question, I interpret it like this; the primary detachment (IG in this case) dictates who you can take as allies (in this case IK and chaos) but you still have to follow the rules set for allying between the allies of the primary detachment . So battle brothers count as scoring, convenience don't and desperate have the one eye open rule. So the problem is which rule do we follow? The IG saying they can ally with both or the IK saying we can't, but here's the thing; the IK rule book never specifically says you can't ally with IG who are allied with chaos. Until it gets FAQed I'm saying yes the OP is correct.
It does, actually. The Knights would be CtA with Chaos. You cannot ally with CtA armies. Ergo, having Knights and Chaos in the same army is illegal.
No it doesn't, they rule for 'Come the apocalypse; but not before' says "Simply, this kind of alliance can not occur. You'll have to look elsewhere for aid." but the IK arn't trying to ally with chaos they're allying with IG who happen to also be allied with chaos. So following the RAR the IK aren't allies with the chaos but are still allies with the IG and visa versa with the chaos. So in short it has no affect.
It does have an effect. Look at the example with the Tau. The knights treat the Tau as desperate allies. Tau are desperate allies with Knights. Chaos is CtA with Knights. Ergo, Knights would treat Chaos (even if they are associated with guard) as CtA, making such a force incompatible, as "this kind of alliance can not occur."
It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
And it would still be incompatible, as even if you "treat them" as CtA, the list would be illegal as such as force is not allowed. Btw, Ally of my Ally is my Ally does not exist as an adage, and for good reason; it's fallacious. Allying with an enemy of another faction is not a clever diplomatic move.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/16 13:57:35
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/03/16 13:55:36
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: Attached is a screen cap of the rule in question, I interpret it like this; the primary detachment (IG in this case) dictates who you can take as allies (in this case IK and chaos) but you still have to follow the rules set for allying between the allies of the primary detachment . So battle brothers count as scoring, convenience don't and desperate have the one eye open rule. So the problem is which rule do we follow? The IG saying they can ally with both or the IK saying we can't, but here's the thing; the IK rule book never specifically says you can't ally with IG who are allied with chaos. Until it gets FAQed I'm saying yes the OP is correct.
It does, actually. The Knights would be CtA with Chaos.
You cannot ally with CtA armies.
Ergo, having Knights and Chaos in the same army is illegal.
No it doesn't, they rule for 'Come the apocalypse; but not before' says "Simply, this kind of alliance can not occur. You'll have to look elsewhere for aid." but the IK arn't trying to ally with chaos they're allying with IG who happen to also be allied with chaos. So following the RAR the IK aren't allies with the chaos but are still allies with the IG and visa versa with the chaos. So in short it has no affect.
It does have an effect. Look at the example with the Tau. The knights treat the Tau as desperate allies. Tau are desperate allies with Knights.
Chaos is CtA with Knights. Ergo, Knights would treat Chaos (even if they are associated with guard) as CtA, making such a force incompatible, as "this kind of alliance can not occur."
It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
And it would still be incompatible, as even if you "treat them" as CtA, the list would be illegal as such as force is not allowed.
Btw, Ally of my Ally is my Ally does not exist as an adage, and for good reason; it's fallacious.
According to what rule.
"Only the insane have strength enough to prosper; only those who prosper truly judge whats sane"
2014/03/16 13:57:47
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
"can not occur" simple as that.
How does the Chaos and Knight forces treat each other?
Treat them as enemies? No rule says that.
Treat them like it has no effect? Making them better than Desperate Allies? No chance.
There is one rule that covers it however...
"Can not occur".
2014/03/16 14:01:07
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: Attached is a screen cap of the rule in question, I interpret it like this; the primary detachment (IG in this case) dictates who you can take as allies (in this case IK and chaos) but you still have to follow the rules set for allying between the allies of the primary detachment . So battle brothers count as scoring, convenience don't and desperate have the one eye open rule. So the problem is which rule do we follow? The IG saying they can ally with both or the IK saying we can't, but here's the thing; the IK rule book never specifically says you can't ally with IG who are allied with chaos. Until it gets FAQed I'm saying yes the OP is correct.
It does, actually. The Knights would be CtA with Chaos. You cannot ally with CtA armies. Ergo, having Knights and Chaos in the same army is illegal.
No it doesn't, they rule for 'Come the apocalypse; but not before' says "Simply, this kind of alliance can not occur. You'll have to look elsewhere for aid." but the IK arn't trying to ally with chaos they're allying with IG who happen to also be allied with chaos. So following the RAR the IK aren't allies with the chaos but are still allies with the IG and visa versa with the chaos. So in short it has no affect.
It does have an effect. Look at the example with the Tau. The knights treat the Tau as desperate allies. Tau are desperate allies with Knights. Chaos is CtA with Knights. Ergo, Knights would treat Chaos (even if they are associated with guard) as CtA, making such a force incompatible, as "this kind of alliance can not occur."
It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
And it would still be incompatible, as even if you "treat them" as CtA, the list would be illegal as such as force is not allowed. Btw, Ally of my Ally is my Ally does not exist as an adage, and for good reason; it's fallacious.
According to what rule.
"cannot occur"
They are, quite simply, incompatible.
Besides, Allies of Convenience already treats such allies as enemy units, that cannot be shot, charged, ect. Desperate Allies is even worse than that. Saying "knights ignore friendly chaos units on the table" would be the same as calling chaos Allies of Convenience. Which is false, because they are Come the Apocalypse.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/03/16 14:04:47
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/03/16 14:01:37
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
"can not occur" simple as that.
How does the Chaos and Knight forces treat each other?
Treat them as enemies? No rule says that.
Treat them like it has no effect? Making them better than Desperate Allies? No chance.
There is one rule that covers it however...
"Can not occur".
Until it's FAQed away they treat each other as if there's no effect. They're enemies because desperate allies are enemies and come the apocalypse is a step down from there.
"Only the insane have strength enough to prosper; only those who prosper truly judge whats sane"
2014/03/16 14:03:29
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
"can not occur" simple as that.
How does the Chaos and Knight forces treat each other?
Treat them as enemies? No rule says that.
Treat them like it has no effect? Making them better than Desperate Allies? No chance.
There is one rule that covers it however...
"Can not occur".
Until it's FAQed away they treat each other as if there's no effect. They're enemies because desperate allies are enemies and come the apocalypse is a step down from there.
They are not enemies because no rule says they are.
There is a rule you're deliberately ignoring though.
"can not occur"
2014/03/16 14:05:06
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
"can not occur" simple as that.
How does the Chaos and Knight forces treat each other?
Treat them as enemies? No rule says that.
Treat them like it has no effect? Making them better than Desperate Allies? No chance.
There is one rule that covers it however...
"Can not occur".
Until it's FAQed away they treat each other as if there's no effect. They're enemies because desperate allies are enemies and come the apocalypse is a step down from there.
They are not enemies because no rule says they are.
There is a rule you're deliberately ignoring though.
"can not occur"
So they "treat them as" if it can not occur, so they're not allies but they're still allied to IG.
"Only the insane have strength enough to prosper; only those who prosper truly judge whats sane"
2014/03/16 14:07:44
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
"can not occur" simple as that.
How does the Chaos and Knight forces treat each other?
Treat them as enemies? No rule says that.
Treat them like it has no effect? Making them better than Desperate Allies? No chance.
There is one rule that covers it however...
"Can not occur".
Until it's FAQed away they treat each other as if there's no effect. They're enemies because desperate allies are enemies and come the apocalypse is a step down from there.
They are not enemies because no rule says they are.
There is a rule you're deliberately ignoring though.
"can not occur"
So they "treat them as" if it can not occur, so they're not allies but they're still allied to IG.
That changes nothing. The CtA restriction would still apply.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/03/16 14:10:53
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
"can not occur" simple as that.
How does the Chaos and Knight forces treat each other?
Treat them as enemies? No rule says that.
Treat them like it has no effect? Making them better than Desperate Allies? No chance.
There is one rule that covers it however...
"Can not occur".
Until it's FAQed away they treat each other as if there's no effect. They're enemies because desperate allies are enemies and come the apocalypse is a step down from there.
They are not enemies because no rule says they are.
There is a rule you're deliberately ignoring though.
"can not occur"
So they "treat them as" if it can not occur, so they're not allies but they're still allied to IG.
That changes nothing. The CtA restriction would still apply.
No it doesn't because they arn't CtA they're allies of allies who count as the way they would if they tried to ally up.
"Only the insane have strength enough to prosper; only those who prosper truly judge whats sane"
2014/03/16 14:11:27
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: It uses the affect of the type of allies the would be without them actually being allies. "treat them as" is the specific wording used, so in this case they would treat them as enemies but as the controlling player you would never shoot at your own men so it's not a problem. The ally of my ally is my ally.
"can not occur" simple as that.
How does the Chaos and Knight forces treat each other?
Treat them as enemies? No rule says that.
Treat them like it has no effect? Making them better than Desperate Allies? No chance.
There is one rule that covers it however...
"Can not occur".
Until it's FAQed away they treat each other as if there's no effect. They're enemies because desperate allies are enemies and come the apocalypse is a step down from there.
They are not enemies because no rule says they are.
There is a rule you're deliberately ignoring though.
"can not occur"
So they "treat them as" if it can not occur, so they're not allies but they're still allied to IG.
That changes nothing. The CtA restriction would still apply.
No it doesn't because they arn't CtA they're allies of allies who count as the way they would if they tried to ally up.
The knights treat allied detachments the same way they would treat factions from the primary detachment in that table.
They are CtA.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/03/16 14:19:09
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: So they "treat them as" if it can not occur, so they're not allies but they're still allied to IG.
Try and word it how you like.
"Can not occur"
You're trying to make it occur. Making the list illegal. Simple as that, cannot happen.
We're just gona have to agree to disagree until the FAQ comes out.
There won't be an FAQ.
Why should there be?
Rarely has there been a rule clearer than "can not occur".
If you're trying to make it occur, you've broken the rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/16 14:19:35
2014/03/16 14:29:43
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
I honestly can't think how much clearer "can not occur" can be.
We're told that levels of alliance must be checked between allied detachments as well as primary/ally. And the level in this case is CTA: Can not occur.
2014/03/16 16:09:06
Subject: Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara, just look at the rules, all forces in an army are allied to each other, not just to the primary detatchment, as clearly defined in the Inquisition and Knights codexes.
Knights cannot ally with Chaos Space Marines or Demons under any circumstances because of their categorisation under 'Come The Apocalypse' and therefore they cannot, under any circumstances, be part of an army that contains Chaos forces.
Simple logic and reading comprehension.
So they have us surrounded? Excellent, now we can shoot in any direction we want!!!
2014/03/16 18:25:22
Subject: Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
grendel083 wrote: I honestly can't think how much clearer "can not occur" can be.
We're told that levels of alliance must be checked between allied detachments as well as primary/ally. And the level in this case is CTA: Can not occur.
You're right, You know you're right. Heck, even the guys that you're debating know that you're right. You cited rules, a matrix and an official example.
There are a few choice individuals on Dakka that will not admit that they are wrong, ever. Not even when they prove themselves wrong. You just have to be satisfied that you made them look foolish and move on.
They will dismiss anything that they can as "fluff", ignore written rules to explain a RAW argument, use implied or intended rules to make a RAW argument (then deny that they did so), Ignore five out your six points and argue against the sixth with the aforementioned tactics, set up straw man arguments and attack them instead of your point.
We all know who they are, they know who they are.
You are 100% factual and correct. Good job.
Meks is da best! Dey makes go fasta and mo dakka!
2014/03/17 03:24:09
Subject: Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Are you hosting a tournament? Post rules about this - allowed or not allowed, whatever.
Are you playing a friendly game? Then ask your opponent if he minds you taking your cool converted chaos knight with your chaos army. If he says "I dunno...." then ask him if he minds you taking a primary guard detachment, allied chaos, and a chaos knight, since that limits what CSM units you can take and is effectively adding a higher tax on the knight in the first place, plus making your warlord much weaker than if it was a CSM warlord.
If they say YES, then it's fine! Bring your cool converted knight.
40k Armies I play:
Glory for Slaanesh!
2014/03/17 07:33:12
Subject: Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Nevzara wrote: If it was clear enough we wouldn't be having this argument.
You must be new to YMDC
Well yes I am rather =P
And my arguments haven't changed so why do you keep making the same point over and over O.o it achieves nothing.
Because were folliwing the tenets, and disproving the validity of your argument.
So to follow the tenets, you have to mark you are argument as "RAI", "HYWPI" or come up with something to rebut the rebuttal of your argument; that is you are directly ignoring the rules that say that level of alliance CANNOT OCCUR. You are trying to make it OCCUR, so need a rule allowing it.
2014/03/17 08:10:31
Subject: Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
There is only one legal way to have Chaos Knights:
Ally them to a converted "traitor" army that is using the normal codex rules for it's IOM counterpart. Such as a "traitor IG" army that is a fluffy excuse to put pointy bits on your LRBT.
Use all rules for IOM Codex:IG, and IOM Codex:Knights.
2014/03/17 11:03:33
Subject: Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
maceria wrote: There is only one legal way to have Chaos Knights:
Ally them to a converted "traitor" army that is using the normal codex rules for it's IOM counterpart. Such as a "traitor IG" army that is a fluffy excuse to put pointy bits on your LRBT.
Use all rules for IOM Codex:IG, and IOM Codex:Knights.
This is the best solution. As there are no CtA forces involved, there are no compatibility issues.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/03/17 13:35:09
Subject: Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
grendel083 wrote: Care to explain? There's even an example to go with the rule.
The example is incorrect.
Covered by this rule
Codex: Imperial Knights wrote:This is an additional row for the Allies chart in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Find the column for the codex of your potential allies at the top of the matrix. You’ll see the level of alliance at the intersection of the row and the column.
Again, the rule says that it is an additional row for the main rulebook matrix. If you are adding something to the main rulebook matrix then you have to obey the rest of the main rulebook matrix, and that includes the rule that the things on the left are primary detachments and the things on the top are allied detachments. Nothing in the quoted rule allows you to change how the allies matrix works just because you really want to do it.
Not mention of detachments, just Codex's.
This is covered by the core rules for allies. Allied relationships in list construction exist between detachments, not units/models. Since there is no way to determine a relationship between two allied detachments you can never check for CTA status during list construction, and therefore two CTA allies will never prevent each other from being taken. The restriction will only apply if one of the CTA detachments is your primary detachment.
Here is where all of this falls appart...if you consider adding it as a row neither the Iquisition or IK armies can be any thing but a primary detachment. It is obvious that the intent is just to show the allied relationships. SO given that the book tells you to compare to the other detachments as well and Come the Apoc allies cannot be in the same army no Chaos + Knights.
2014/03/17 14:19:40
Subject: Re:Imperial knights for chaos! it is possible hear me out!
Why is this thread so long? Grendel provided the answer on the first page:
Codex: Inquisition wrote:
Note that the Inquisitorial detachment may have a different relationship to the models from an army’s primary detachment, and the models that make up that army’s ‘regular’ allied detachment (assuming there are any). For example, if an Inquisitor was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Inquisition would treat the Guard as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.
These rules stand as evidence that there are relations between allied detachments. Having a list where one ally of the primary detachment is "come the apocalypse" with another would be illegal, as the two such detachments could not exist within the same force, as per the rules.
How can this be contested?
On a side note, I was quite confused why Imperial Knights are not allowed to be used by chaos forces. Many rebelled in the fluff, so there is justification (+they would sell more models).
~4100
~1660
