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Here is my theory on how players can take chaos space marines AND take imperial knights in the same force and have it perfectly legal....

The Imperial knights codex says it is a special type of detachment that does not take up the option for the primary detachment to bring in an allied detachment. So this force could in theory work

Primary detachment = imperial guard
Allied detachment = Chaos Marines
+ imperial knight detachment

Since both imperial knights AND chaos space marines are able to ally with guard and imperial knights do not stop the guard from being able to ally this sort of list would be legal.

Can anybody quote the rule that would stop this?

Nope, doesn't work.

You're assuming the level of alliance rule ONLY applies between a Primary and Allied detachment. This is incorrect

The levels of alliance apply to ALL parts of the army. It isn't just the relationship between Primary and Ally.
In fact the Allies rules never even mention detachments, it's all about the relationship between ALL forces used.

BRB Levels of Alliance wrote:To represent this, we have several categories of alliances, each of which imposes certain effects on the game. The Allies Matrix shows the levels of potential alliance between each army.

In this section they talk about armies being forces from a codex, rather than your entire force.

So in your example you have 3 armies:
Imperial Guard,
Imperial Knights,
Chaos Space Marines.

Note the above quote cares not about detachments. It's the relationship between armies, and two of your armies cannot be in the same force.

 grendel083 wrote:
You're assuming the level of alliance rule ONLY applies between a Primary and Allied detachment. This is incorrect

Nope. This is absolutely incorrect. You need to read the note about how to use the allies matrix (on the same page as the matrix itself) where it explicitly states that you find your primary detachment on the left side, and your potential allies on the top. It does not contain any instructions for finding a relationship between two allied detachments, so RAW there is nothing stopping the OP's plan.

(Now, RAI/HYWPI is an entirely different subject, and that kind of rules lawyering may not earn you many opponents when you're already using a class of unit that many people are opposed to in general.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
You're assuming the level of alliance rule ONLY applies between a Primary and Allied detachment. This is incorrect

Nope. This is absolutely incorrect. You need to read the note about how to use the allies matrix (on the same page as the matrix itself) where it explicitly states that you find your primary detachment on the left side, and your potential allies on the top. It does not contain any instructions for finding a relationship between two allied detachments, so RAW there is nothing stopping the OP's plan.

(Now, RAI/HYWPI is an entirely different subject, and that kind of rules lawyering may not earn you many opponents when you're already using a class of unit that many people are opposed to in general.)

Personally I'd take an actual rule over a note on how to use a chart.

Also mini Codex's like this refer to Forces in their allied section, again not detachments.
I've only got the Inquisition one to hand this second, but that talks about the relationship between all forces, and even gives an example: Imperial guard Primary, Tau Allied and Inquisition. It cover that the Inquisition consider the Allied Tau Desperate Allies as per their chart.

So there is indeed a relationship between the two allied parts. In this case it's a no go.

Codex:Inquisition specifies you must check the matrix for both Primary and allied detachment. I do beleive Codex:Imperial Knights says the same (i do not have a copy)

[Edit] As Grendel said

The instructions in the allies chart in the BRB are not important as they do not tell you how to check the level of alliance between anything other that the primary and 'regular' allied detachments. The knight codex ammends thats chart and gives you additional instrructions. As you can see you not only check the alliance level between the primary and allied detachment, you also check it between all potential allies. This means you can never have an imperial kngiht in an army with chaos marines. Perhaps FW will create a 'reneage knight' allies matrix entry for the chaos players, but I highly doubt GW has any plans for anything close to that.

 DJGietzen wrote:
As you can see you not only check the alliance level between the primary and allied detachment, you also check it between all potential allies.

I don't see anything in there that says that. It just adds a new line to the matrix (and it explicitly says that it does this, so the original row/column labels from the BRB chart still apply), it doesn't change the fact that "allies" is a relationship between a primary detachment and an allied detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Personally I'd take an actual rule over a note on how to use a chart.

That is not a choice you are allowed to make. The note on how to use the chart tells you what all of the symbols mean. You can't just throw it out and declare that the symbols the note labels "primary detachment" actually mean "any detachment I want to use the matrix with".

 Peregrine wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Personally I'd take an actual rule over a note on how to use a chart.

That is not a choice you are allowed to make. The note on how to use the chart tells you what all of the symbols mean. You can't just throw it out and declare that the symbols the note labels "primary detachment" actually mean "any detachment I want to use the matrix with".

I've given an example where the rules state there is a relationship between the two allied parts, not just with the Primary. Does that not count either?

I'll give the whole rule. Sadly my flat mate has run off with my Knights Codex, but here's the section from the Inquisition one. It uses the same type of detachment as the Knights. I assume there's a similar example in there.

Codex: Inquisition wrote:Note that the Inquisitorial detachment may have a different relationship to the models from an army’s primary detachment, and the models that make up that army’s ‘regular’ allied detachment (assuming there are any). For example, if an Inquisitor was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Inquisition would treat the Guard as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.

As you can see you must consider the level of alliance between ALL parts.

 grendel083 wrote:
I've given an example where the rules state there is a relationship between the two allied parts, not just with the Primary. Does that not count either?

No, because you haven't given a quote that says that. You've given a quote that refers to levels of alliance between armies, in the "fluff" section of the rules. Nothing in that suggests that you should ignore the clear instructions on how to use the allies matrix.

I'll give the whole rule. Sadly my flat mate has run off with my Knights Codex, but here's the section from the Inquisition one. It uses the same type of detachment as the Knights. I assume there's a similar example in there.

My IG codex doesn't mention allies at all, therefore allies don't exist.

 Peregrine wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I've given an example where the rules state there is a relationship between the two allied parts, not just with the Primary. Does that not count either?

No, because you haven't given a quote that says that. You've given a quote that refers to levels of alliance between armies, in the "fluff" section of the rules. Nothing in that suggests that you should ignore the clear instructions on how to use the allies matrix.

That quote was directly from the Codex allies rules section. It was not fluff.

My IG codex doesn't mention allies at all, therefore allies don't exist.

Fortunatly the rulebook says differently.

 grendel083 wrote:
That quote was directly from the Codex allies rules section. It was not fluff.

It's from the paragraph talking about how nobody trusts each other in this grimdark world, which is primarily fluff. And it refers to "armies", which is not a relevant term in understanding or using the allies matrix. So we can conclude that it's another fluff statement about how the fictional characters and armies interact.

My IG codex doesn't mention allies at all, therefore allies don't exist.

Fortunatly the rulebook says differently.

Really? So if my IG codex doesn't take priority over the core rules when talking about the knights codex, why does C:I work differently? Why does one statement in C:I creating slightly different allies rules for Inquisition armies have anything to do with an entirely separate codex?

 Peregrine wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
That quote was directly from the Codex allies rules section. It was not fluff.

It's from the paragraph talking about how nobody trusts each other in this grimdark world, which is primarily fluff. And it refers to "armies", which is not a relevant term in understanding or using the allies matrix. So we can conclude that it's another fluff statement about how the fictional characters and armies interact.

Are you talking about a different quote? It says nothing like that. It's the rule right before the allies matrix. If it was fluff it wouldn't talk about detachments and codexs.
Here it is again:

Codex: Inquisition wrote:Note that the Inquisitorial detachment may have a different relationship to the models from an army’s primary detachment, and the models that make up that army’s ‘regular’ allied detachment (assuming there are any). For example, if an Inquisitor was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Inquisition would treat the Guard as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.

Really? So if my IG codex doesn't take priority over the core rules when talking about the knights codex, why does C:I work differently? Why does one statement in C:I creating slightly different allies rules for Inquisition armies have anything to do with an entirely separate codex?

As i said, it uses the same detachment structure. I'm currently unable to quote from the Knights codex, as mentioned my flat mate ran off with it for the weekend.

Instead of saying what a 5th edition codex doesn't say, perhaps you could simply quote the relevent section from the Imperial Knights Codex? The part from the allies matrix, where it talks about the relationship of detachments?

From a Purely Fluff prospective I have no issue with this Idea, and if it is a friendly game and not a Tournament game than what does it matter.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
As you can see you not only check the alliance level between the primary and allied detachment, you also check it between all potential allies.

I don't see anything in there that says that. It just adds a new line to the matrix (and it explicitly says that it does this, so the original row/column labels from the BRB chart still apply), it doesn't change the fact that "allies" is a relationship between a primary detachment and an allied detachment.

While "allies" has never been defined this way, it is worth noting that the IK codex also says

The Imperial Knights Allies Matrix below lists the relationship between Imperial Knights and the forces they may fight alongside... Note that the Imperial Knights may have a different relationship to the models from an army’s primary detachment, and the models that make up that army’s ‘regular’ allied detachment (assuming there are any). For example, if an Imperial Knight was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Knight would treat the Guardsmen as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.

When taking the imperial knight detachments you need to look up the allied relationship between the knight detachment, the primary detachment and the 'regular' allied detachment. So no, what the OP proposed is strictly forbidden by the codex.

DJGietzen is spot on.

Do it, chaos.

 DJGietzen wrote:
When taking the imperial knight detachments you need to look up the allied relationship between the knight detachment, the primary detachment and the 'regular' allied detachment.

And as soon as you provide a way to look up that relationship then you can say what it is.

Also, please cite the rules that tell you to check relationships between two allied detachments during army construction (as opposed to during the game).

 Peregrine wrote:
And as soon as you provide a way to look up that relationship then you can say what it is.

The Allies Matrix

Also, please cite the rules that tell you to check relationships between two allied detachments during army construction (as opposed to during the game).

How does a Tyranid player check if they can take an ally during army construction?
Do they just take one, start the game and say "Oh no, my list is illegal" and loose the game?

Are you trying to prove that all allies can't be used?
And how does this relate to relationship betwwn two allied parts of an army?

 Peregrine wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
When taking the imperial knight detachments you need to look up the allied relationship between the knight detachment, the primary detachment and the 'regular' allied detachment.

And as soon as you provide a way to look up that relationship then you can say what it is.

Did you not see "Find the column for the codex of your potential allies at the top of the matrix. You'll see the level of alliance at the intersection of the row and column." in the pic posted above? The codex tells you that the Knight detachment ia sllies with both the primary and regular allied detachments. This chart tells you how to look up that level of alliance regardless of what detachment you are looking up.

 Peregrine wrote:
Also, please cite the rules that tell you to check relationships between two allied detachments during army construction (as opposed to during the game).

I don't think I have to, its called reasonable expectation. Also, if I some how found myself in a game with you and you ran an imperial knight and chaos marines and tried to tell me you don't have to check the level alliance until after the game starts it will be a very short game, as att he start of game turn one I would ask you to check and you would find that "this type of alliance simply cannot occur" and would loose the game for having an illegal force.

 grendel083 wrote:
The Allies Matrix

Please tell me how to use the allies matrix to find a relationship between an allied detachment and another allied detachment.

(Hint: you can't, because the allies matrix doesn't work that way.)

Do they just take one, start the game and say "Oh no, my list is illegal" and loose the game?

Nope, they just act like any other models in the same army and have no special in-game status as a result of their allied relationship. Sure, this means that "come the apocalypse" allies are more effective than desperate allies, but it's not like anything else in GW's rules makes sense fluff-wise.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Did you not see "Find the column for the codex of your potential allies at the top of the matrix. You'll see the level of alliance at the intersection of the row and column." in the pic posted above? The codex tells you that the Knight detachment ia sllies with both the primary and regular allied detachments. This chart tells you how to look up that level of alliance regardless of what detachment you are looking up.

This doesn't work. The knight codex allies matrix explicitly expands the core rulebook allies matrix instead of acting as its own chart, which means that all of the rules for using the core rulebook matrix apply. And that matrix can only tell you the relationship between a primary detachment (on the side) and an allied detachment (on the top). It is not possible to find a relationship between two allied detachments.

I don't think I have to, its called reasonable expectation.

This is YMDC. Please stick to RAW instead of inventing your own rules about how you think things should work. We have a proposed rules forum for that kind of discussion.

Also, if I some how found myself in a game with you and you ran an imperial knight and chaos marines and tried to tell me you don't have to check the level alliance until after the game starts it will be a very short game, as att he start of game turn one I would ask you to check and you would find that "this type of alliance simply cannot occur" and would loose the game for having an illegal force.

IOW, you would invent some other rules and declare that you auto-win. You're obviously free to do that, but you shouldn't confuse people by suggesting that those rules are the ones published by GW.

So the Ally Matrix in the codex applies, but the rules that go with it don't?

The rule that says to check the relationship between all allied parts of the force?

Why does one rule apply, and not the other?

Why does this rule somehow not apply?

Codex: Imperial Knights wrote:The Imperial Knights Allies Matrix below lists the relationship between Imperial Knights and the forces they may fight alongside.
Note that the Imperial Knights may have a different relationship to the models from an army’s primary detachment, and the models that make up that army’s ‘regular’ allied detachment (assuming there are any).
For example, if an Imperial Knight was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Knight would treat the Guardsmen as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule that says to check the relationship between all allied parts of the force?

Please explain how to check the relationship between all allied parts of the force.

Why does this rule somehow not apply?

Because it doesn't work the way you think it works. Even if you ignore the issue of "how to use the allies matrix" and determine the relationship between allies and other allies the army construction rules (the place where CTA allies are banned) apply to detachments, not models. The rule you quoted applies to models, which means it can't apply until the game has already started and the knights are part of your list.

 Peregrine wrote:
Because there is no way to resolve it.

Care to explain? There's even an example to go with the rule.

 Peregrine wrote:
And that matrix can only tell you the relationship between a primary detachment (on the side) and an allied detachment (on the top). It is not possible to find a relationship between two allied detachments.

Covered by this rule

Codex: Imperial Knights wrote:This is an additional row for the Allies chart in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Find the column for the codex of your potential allies at the top of the matrix. You’ll see the level of alliance at the intersection of the row and the column.

Not mention of detachments, just Codex's.

And an allied knight is in a Detachment. Just not the "standard ally" detachment.

 The World XEater wrote:
Here is my theory on how players can take chaos space marines AND take imperial knights in the same force and have it perfectly legal....

The Imperial knights codex says it is a special type of detachment that does not take up the option for the primary detachment to bring in an allied detachment. So this force could in theory work

Primary detachment = imperial guard
Allied detachment = Chaos Marines
+ imperial knight detachment

Since both imperial knights AND chaos space marines are able to ally with guard and imperial knights do not stop the guard from being able to ally this sort of list would be legal.

Can anybody quote the rule that would stop this?

Imperial Knight codex says that knights treat their allies like the chart says.
Gives an example of imperial guard primary, allied with tau and special detatchment of imperial knights. The knights would treat IG as battle brothers but tau as desperate allies. How would you play an army when one of your units is a hated enemy of another unit. I Thought it says in the BRB that these two combos can never be in the same army.

I'm sorry bro, but chaos cannot have imperial knights. Stop trying to fish for stuff that isn't there.

You'd have to play it so that your knight attacks your chaos

“Come the Apocalypse, ​
But Not Before
Simply put, this kind of alliance cannot occur – there’s too much bad blood between these two armies. You’ll have to look elsewhere for aid”

 grendel083 wrote:
Care to explain? There's even an example to go with the rule.

The example is incorrect.

Covered by this rule

Codex: Imperial Knights wrote:This is an additional row for the Allies chart in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Find the column for the codex of your potential allies at the top of the matrix. You’ll see the level of alliance at the intersection of the row and the column.

Again, the rule says that it is an additional row for the main rulebook matrix. If you are adding something to the main rulebook matrix then you have to obey the rest of the main rulebook matrix, and that includes the rule that the things on the left are primary detachments and the things on the top are allied detachments. Nothing in the quoted rule allows you to change how the allies matrix works just because you really want to do it.

Not mention of detachments, just Codex's.

This is covered by the core rules for allies. Allied relationships in list construction exist between detachments, not units/models. Since there is no way to determine a relationship between two allied detachments you can never check for CTA status during list construction, and therefore two CTA allies will never prevent each other from being taken. The restriction will only apply if one of the CTA detachments is your primary detachment.

 grendel083 wrote:
So the Ally Matrix in the codex applies, but the rules that go with it don't?

The rule that says to check the relationship between all allied parts of the force?

Why does one rule apply, and not the other?

Why does this rule somehow not apply?

Codex: Imperial Knights wrote:The Imperial Knights Allies Matrix below lists the relationship between Imperial Knights and the forces they may fight alongside.
Note that the Imperial Knights may have a different relationship to the models from an army’s primary detachment, and the models that make up that army’s ‘regular’ allied detachment (assuming there are any).
For example, if an Imperial Knight was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Knight would treat the Guardsmen as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.

Okay, I can see your line of reasoning for this. The knights, going by this example, would treat the chaos marines like CTA allies. Therefore, since you cant have CTA allies they couldnt be taken in the first place. The problem is that the rulebook only has rules for allies and the primary detachment. There are no specific rules pertaining to how allied detachments deal with each other.

In other words, there is a gap here in the rules. Surprise, surprise.

Its codex IMPERIAL knights afterall, it doesný say codex CHAOS knights, that comes later along with a slight retooling of the kit and another 50 dollar codex.

Raw take them. Doesn't sound intended but strictly RAW which is what this section is about looks perfectly legal.

 Peregrine wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Care to explain? There's even an example to go with the rule.

The example is incorrect.

No, it isn't. It's very clear you simply want it to be incorrect.

Covered by this rule

Codex: Imperial Knights wrote:This is an additional row for the Allies chart in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Find the column for the codex of your potential allies at the top of the matrix. You’ll see the level of alliance at the intersection of the row and the column.

Again, the rule says that it is an additional row for the main rulebook matrix. If you are adding something to the main rulebook matrix then you have to obey the rest of the main rulebook matrix, and that includes the rule that the things on the left are primary detachments and the things on the top are allied detachments. Nothing in the quoted rule allows you to change how the allies matrix works just because you really want to do it.

This rule gives very clear instruction on what to do.
If the rule book doesn't contain instruction on how they're treated, this rule does. Very clearly.
It tells you exactly how to look up the level of Alliance.

Codex: Imperial Knights wrote:Find the column for the codex of your potential allies at the top of the matrix. You’ll see the level of alliance at the intersection of the row and the column.

Right here! How to look up level of Alliance between allies.

Not mention of detachments, just Codex's.

This is covered by the core rules for allies. Allied relationships in list construction exist between detachments, not units/models. Since there is no way to determine a relationship between two allied detachments you can never check for CTA status during list construction, and therefore two CTA allies will never prevent each other from being taken. The restriction will only apply if one of the CTA detachments is your primary detachment.

Except for the rule in the codex that tells you exactly how to to determine the relationship.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stratos wrote:
Raw take them. Doesn't sound intended but strictly RAW which is what this section is about looks perfectly legal.

Strict RAW there's a rule in the Codex saying it can't be done.

The additional codex's are pretty clear on how you handle it - either you check against the rule book for allied relationships (Or spercific codex's where the rule book doesn't include them) or don't use the rule book and house rule the alliance relationship.

Strict RAW is allies rules or no rules. Use the ones with rules.

For example, if an Imperial Knight was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Knight would treat the Guardsmen as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.

Pray tell how they came up with this without using the allied relationships between detachments (Including 'special' detachments)- They just make stuff up to confuse players perhaps.