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 Peregrine wrote:

No, because the LR has internal power for the lascannons, as stated explicitly in the fluff, that the LRC removes to gain more transport capacity.

The fluff says it, but the current Land Raider kit predates that little fluff snippet and clearly doesn't have any internal power generators in its interior detailing. It's a bit like the RT armour fluff article authoritatively stating which mk6 pad is studded when the entire existing miniature range said it was the other.

Replying to the guy who says crimson hunters are good, they are extremely deadly, i will give you that. But their greatest weakness is bolters... all it takes is a couble of basic troops being close and they die.

Martel732 wrote:
Peregrine, I gotta say that I really don't care the model at all. It could be a shoebox, and the six person capacity would still be fine with me .You can still get your three plasma guns, so who really cares? That's all that matters anyway.

I'm not sure how miffed Peregrine is, but personally for me it's just a "wtf" thing. The Vendetta is now the only vehicle where the ammo for lascannons is magically 30 times bigger than any other lascannon in the game?

If it weren't for the fact the wing lascannons have battery packs AND when you build a Valkyrie there's these little boxes that go inside the transport area called "hull weapon power packs" that are already many times larger than any other lascannon power supply then maybe I'd believe it.

The Valkyrie is one of the few transport vehicles that can genuinely fit it's allowance (12 models) in to it despite also clearly having large power packs for the weapons. Which makes the transport nerf feel very halfhearted to me. It's one of those "Do GW even know their own fluff/models? Have they even read their own books or assembled their own models?" moments.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Peregrine, I gotta say that I really don't care the model at all. It could be a shoebox, and the six person capacity would still be fine with me .You can still get your three plasma guns, so who really cares? That's all that matters anyway.

I'm not sure how miffed Peregrine is, but personally for me it's just a "wtf" thing. The Vendetta is now the only vehicle where the ammo for lascannons is magically 30 times bigger than any other lascannon in the game?

If it weren't for the fact the wing lascannons have battery packs AND when you build a Valkyrie there's these little boxes that go inside the transport area called "hull weapon power packs" that are already many times larger than any other lascannon power supply then maybe I'd believe it.

The Valkyrie is one of the few transport vehicles that can genuinely fit it's allowance (12 models) in to it despite also clearly having large power packs for the weapons. Which makes the transport nerf feel very halfhearted to me. It's one of those "Do GW even know their own fluff/models? Have they even read their own books or assembled their own models?" moments.

it follows just fine. Land Raiders carry 10 models, Crusaders hold 16 because of the lack of lascannon power cells. the OP and following agreements are complaining because their favorite gunship lost its ability to carry lots of models and became more expensive, so the spam they relied on now needs rethinking.

 viewfinder wrote:
it follows just fine. Land Raiders carry 10 models, Crusaders hold 16 because of the lack of lascannon power cells.

And, as previously stated, the Land Raider has internal power for its lascannons, the Vendetta has external battery packs. Fluff-wise the Vendetta probably has very limited ammunition, enough for only a few strafing runs, before it has to fly back to rearm, while the Land Raider can remain in combat much longer before running out of ammunition (if it ever does). We just don't see this difference because a 40k game is too short for supply issues like that to matter.

the OP and following agreements are complaining because their favorite gunship lost its ability to carry lots of models and became more expensive, so the spam they relied on now needs rethinking.

No, I'm complaining because the Vendetta's rules obviously don't fit the model. It would be like if GW decided that tactical squads are now armed with lasguns, even though the model clearly has a bolter.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Sour Note wrote:
srry bout the confusion i know the 5th ed codex which is why i loved the vendetta and i dont think the vendetta was so OP, i play eldar and GK. and ig and i think the vendetta was that one good unit we had.

Okay. So you played with some of the better weathered armies in the last few years and somehow never noticed that the vendetta is one of the best flyers in the game. Here's some simple questions. Do you know how many Ork flyers there are? Do you ever see the DA flyer? Have you seen the Tau's 11/10/10 bomber that costs 10 points less with no transport capacity?
You probably haven't, because nobody fields those flyers because they are so badly costed to what whey do. The vendetta was on such a high pedestal that all other flyers had to be judged by it. When you were taking Anti-air you weren't planning on taking down AV10-11 flyers, you were planning on hitting AV12/12. When you were planning on bringing your own flyers you had to have an answer for three twin-linked lascannons.

Compering yourself to bad stuff doesn't help much. I am interested in where my AM codex riptide , seerstar , waverserpent , grimore is . Not if an eldar flyer , which no eldar player takes , cost the same without the 6 man transport capacity or if A storm raven costs more , even if for marines he was not the second main way of keep troops alive in end game.

 viewfinder wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Peregrine, I gotta say that I really don't care the model at all. It could be a shoebox, and the six person capacity would still be fine with me .You can still get your three plasma guns, so who really cares? That's all that matters anyway.

I'm not sure how miffed Peregrine is, but personally for me it's just a "wtf" thing. The Vendetta is now the only vehicle where the ammo for lascannons is magically 30 times bigger than any other lascannon in the game?

If it weren't for the fact the wing lascannons have battery packs AND when you build a Valkyrie there's these little boxes that go inside the transport area called "hull weapon power packs" that are already many times larger than any other lascannon power supply then maybe I'd believe it.

The Valkyrie is one of the few transport vehicles that can genuinely fit it's allowance (12 models) in to it despite also clearly having large power packs for the weapons. Which makes the transport nerf feel very halfhearted to me. It's one of those "Do GW even know their own fluff/models? Have they even read their own books or assembled their own models?" moments.

it follows just fine. Land Raiders carry 10 models, Crusaders hold 16 because of the lack of lascannon power cells. the OP and following agreements are complaining because their favorite gunship lost its ability to carry lots of models and became more expensive, so the spam they relied on now needs rethinking.

You clearly didn't read my post at all.

1. The Valkyrie model has power packs that are as large (for the wings) and larger (for the hull) than other Lascannons already and can still fit 12 models in to it. It's not like a Rhino where we're pretending 10 marines can fit in it... a Valkyrie CAN fit 12 models and the Vendetta variant already has big power packs and still fits 12 models.

2. I'm not unhappy the Vendetta got a nerf. If anything, I am happy it got a nerf, as now the FA options are vastly more balanced. I'm just saying "wtf" to it's reduction in capacity when it doesn't fit the model or the fluff for the model.

EDIT: I realise now you may not have not have been referring to me with the complaining about not being able to spam it, but the point still stands

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Peregrine, I gotta say that I really don't care the model at all. It could be a shoebox, and the six person capacity would still be fine with me .You can still get your three plasma guns, so who really cares? That's all that matters anyway.

I'm not sure how miffed Peregrine is, but personally for me it's just a "wtf" thing. The Vendetta is now the only vehicle where the ammo for lascannons is magically 30 times bigger than any other lascannon in the game.

Razorback and Godhammer Land Raiders lose a little over 1/3 of their capacity due to ammo. The Razorback loses it for all loadouts but that includes the lascannon.

The Vendetta used to be the magical Imperial transport with lascannons that didn't reduce transport capacity. They're now in line with other Imperial lascannon toting transports.

 -Loki- wrote:
TheVendetta used to be the magical Imperial transport with las cannon that didn't reduce transport capacity.

No, it used to be the magical transport that had external battery packs (with limited ammunition outside the scope of a 40k game), as clearly demonstrated by the model. There's nothing complicated about this.

They're now in line with other Imperial lascannon toting transports.

Who cares? What matters is what the Vendetta model shows, not what some unrelated tank in a different army happens to have.

Seriously Peregrine, this is a case of 'deal with it'.

The Vendetta got nerfed. As you say, who cares why. Like any other unit getting a nerf in a new edition, just move on.

 Peregrine wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
TheVendetta used to be the magical Imperial transport with las cannon that didn't reduce transport capacity.

No, it used to be the magical transport that had external battery packs (with limited ammunition outside the scope of a 40k game), as clearly demonstrated by the model. There's nothing complicated about this.

They're now in line with other Imperial lascannon toting transports.

Who cares? What matters is what the Vendetta model shows, not what some unrelated tank in a different army happens to have.

Except for the fact that it's model somehow magically has the only external lascannon packs in the entire imperium, despite the fact that it could fit any other vehicle in the Imperium?

I think it's just more of a 'These guys thought this might look cool, and ignored fluff'.

So the model simply isn't a good argument for why it should suddenly have the capabilities it has.

 -Loki- wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Peregrine, I gotta say that I really don't care the model at all. It could be a shoebox, and the six person capacity would still be fine with me .You can still get your three plasma guns, so who really cares? That's all that matters anyway.

I'm not sure how miffed Peregrine is, but personally for me it's just a "wtf" thing. The Vendetta is now the only vehicle where the ammo for lascannons is magically 30 times bigger than any other lascannon in the game.

Razorback and Godhammer Land Raiders lose a little over 1/3 of their capacity due to ammo. The Razorback loses it for all loadout a bit that includes the lascannon.

TheVendetta used to be the magical Imperial transport with las cannon that didn't reduce transport capacity. They're now in line with other Imperial lascannon toting transports.

Do you have a Valkyrie model? Open it up, look at the front of the compartment, there are big huge power packs. Those power packs are bigger than comparable lascannon power packs for other models.

If anything, the Heavy Bolter upgrade should cost capacity, as that genuinely takes up a decent portion of the carrying capacity (not half of it, but a decent amount).

The Razorback is a different animal because the weapon is clearly taking up room in the transport area. You can see the ammo feeds for the guns are going down and intruding on the transport compartment.

Can't say I'm all that familiar with the Land Raider layout to know what that's like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Except for the fact that it's model somehow magically has the only external lascannon packs in the entire imperium, despite the fact that it could fit any other vehicle in the Imperium?

Actually, the Predator Annihilator has external power packs for its weapons too.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Except for the fact that it's model somehow magically has the only external lascannon packs in the entire imperium, despite the fact that it could fit any other vehicle in the Imperium?

1) I don't care about other models. The Vendetta clearly shows external battery packs and the same transport compartment as the Valkyrie. Complain about other models being screwed up if you want, but that doesn't make the Vendetta nerf a good decision.

2) I've already proposed an explanation for the loss of transport capacity on other vehicles: the Vendetta uses external battery packs that can only provide a very limited number of shots, enough for a few strafing runs over the duration of an average 40k game, after which it has to fly home to rearm. A Land Raider or Razorback, on the other hand, is meant to stay in combat longer and therefore spends more space on providing more ammunition for its lascannons.

So the model simply isn't a good argument for why it should suddenly have the capabilities it has.

There's no "suddenly" about it. The Vendetta had full transport capacity as soon as it was introduced. If anything the nerf is the sudden change, since we're supposed to pretend that the Imperial Navy randomly decided one day that Vendettas shall be limited to six passengers, no more. And the commissar will blow your head off if you dare to ask why there are empty seats for no apparent reason.

 Peregrine wrote:


2) I've already proposed an explanation for the loss of transport capacity on other vehicles: the Vendetta uses external battery packs that can only provide a very limited number of shots, enough for a few strafing runs over the duration of an average 40k game, after which it has to fly home to rearm. A Land Raider or Razorback, on the other hand, is meant to stay in combat longer and therefore spends more space on providing more ammunition for its lascannons.

A razorback doesnt fly. So no good comparison at all. And heres a good one for the loss of the vendettas capacity. The Laspacks are heavy. Heavier than man-cargo. Since it is a flyer it needs to let out some guys when its lascannon equipped. So dont act like your fluff explanation for how you want the rules to be would be the only one possible.

 Mywik wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


2) I've already proposed an explanation for the loss of transport capacity on other vehicles: the Vendetta uses external battery packs that can only provide a very limited number of shots, enough for a few strafing runs over the duration of an average 40k game, after which it has to fly home to rearm. A Land Raider or Razorback, on the other hand, is meant to stay in combat longer and therefore spends more space on providing more ammunition for its lascannons.

A razorback doesnt fly. So no good comparison at all. And heres a good one for the loss of the vendettas capacity. The Laspacks are heavy. Heavier than man-cargo. Since it is a flyer it needs to let out some guys when its lascannon equipped. So dont act like your fluff explanation for how you want the rules to be would be the only one possible.

Except Valkyries can carry Elysian Drop Sentinels... Drop Sentinels weigh 7 tonnes. Granted the Valk apparently needs extra fuel to carry Sentinels, but I highly doubt 12 fully armed soldiers + an extra couple of Lascannons and the associated power packs are coming anywhere near 7 tonnes (remembering that even a regular Valk has Lascannons/Multilasers/Rocket pods).

Don't get me wrong. I'm well aware 40k vehicles make no frakking sense... but the Vendetta/Valk kit already has a well thought out background, model and fluff. Saying it can only carry 6 models just reeks of lack of imagination and understanding in their own models/fluff.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


2) I've already proposed an explanation for the loss of transport capacity on other vehicles: the Vendetta uses external battery packs that can only provide a very limited number of shots, enough for a few strafing runs over the duration of an average 40k game, after which it has to fly home to rearm. A Land Raider or Razorback, on the other hand, is meant to stay in combat longer and therefore spends more space on providing more ammunition for its lascannons.

A razorback doesnt fly. So no good comparison at all. And heres a good one for the loss of the vendettas capacity. The Laspacks are heavy. Heavier than man-cargo. Since it is a flyer it needs to let out some guys when its lascannon equipped. So dont act like your fluff explanation for how you want the rules to be would be the only one possible.

Except Valkyries can carry Elysian Drop Sentinels... Drop Sentinels weigh 7 tonnes. Granted the Valk apparently needs extra fuel to carry Sentinels, but I highly doubt 12 fully armed soldiers + an extra couple of Lascannons and the associated power packs are coming anywhere near 7 tonnes (remembering that even a regular Valk has Lascannons/Multilasers/Rocket pods).

Don't get me wrong. I'm well aware 40k vehicles make no frakking sense... but the Vendetta/Valk kit already has a well thought out background, model and fluff. Saying it can only carry 6 models just reeks of lack of imagination and understanding in their own models/fluff.

Touché on that one.

 Mywik wrote:
A razorback doesnt fly.

And your point is? The question is what the model shows, not what type of vehicle it is.

The Laspacks are heavy. Heavier than man-cargo. Since it is a flyer it needs to let out some guys when its lascannon equipped.

This is directly contradicted by the fact that a Valkyrie can carry two huge external fuel tanks and a pair of Sentinels in the transport compartment. And remember that the battery packs can't be that heavy, because they're the same size as the ones used by the lascannons that infantry squads carry around.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mywik wrote:
A razorback doesnt fly.

And your point is? The question is what the model shows, not what type of vehicle it is.

The Laspacks are heavy. Heavier than man-cargo. Since it is a flyer it needs to let out some guys when its lascannon equipped.

Okay i give you that one. Its kinda contradictory to the fluff. I'd say you get your 12 man transport if my marines get to be as awesome as they are in the fluff . Or we just accept that the rules sometimes dont match the fluff.

 Mywik wrote:
Or we just accept that the rules sometimes dont match the fluff.

Or we just accept that the Vendetta was over-nerfed and should have kept its transport capacity, even at the cost of an even bigger point increase.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mywik wrote:
Or we just accept that the rules sometimes dont match the fluff.

Or we just accept that the Vendetta was over-nerfed and should have kept its transport capacity, even at the cost of an even bigger point increase.

Which doesnt change what you quoted from me in the slightest

Maybe we get a different vendetta then the one in 5th ed codex. Maybe this is a mark II or mark 0,5 , The new one could have a bigger engine or stuff like an ammo restoration mini power plants. old valk has external ammo , new one too. old one has to fly away to re arm after X shots , the new one just has to land some dudes jump out load the batteries in to the recharge and then replace them with the ones that were being powered up.It could make a vendetta work longer.

Shouldn't have watched matrix III yestarday .

Look it's really simple FW made a conversion kit that fit old rules, said conversion kit no longer fits New rules.

It's changed its not going to be reversed any time soon live with it.

Welp, guess I can't argue with any of the logic being thrown around in here.

All I can say is welcome to being a Tyranid player reading the 5th edition codex and seeing what was done to the beloved Carnifex.

Though this isn't that bad by any stretch.

 -Loki- wrote:
Welp, guess I can't argue with any of the logic being thrown around in here.

All I can say is welcome to being a Tyranid player reading the 5th edition codex and seeing what was done to the beloved Carnifex.

Though this isn't that bad by any stretch.

I'm also a Tyranid player

Well, if we really, really want to justify the cargo capacity model-wise, which is silly because it's just an old kit that's not meant to reflect 100% accurately what's going on in there, but whatever, why not suggest that a part of cargo bay is taken up by, say, additional aiming computers as it's harder to hit with a beam weapon than a bunch of rockets, meaning that the gunner(co-pilot) would only control the hull-mounted lascannon while two other(hidden) gunners or even hardwired servitors as slaves to the aiming system that aid him in his shooting?

Of course it's a lot of wishful thinking, but I would have nothing against it if they went for that explanation. Just don't expect them to cast a re-run of all the Valkyrie kits with additional bunch of computers and servitors to put in the cargo bay just to cut your moaning about the model not representing the sudden rule change.

MK2, computers(which as we know are a bit more like ENIAC than regular PC in 40k, yay for imperial tech!), servitors(plausible), some room for special weapons. Or even electronic hardware for the potential command squads flying in them and, well... using it for command roles.

Wonder when will IG players get a valkyrie commander letting them get a 3vendetta squadron as single HQ choice...

Funny thing is, that even though the Vendetta is now more expensive and lost half its carrying capacity, it is still the best Fast Attack choice in the codex. Everything else is either overpriced for its abilities (Hellhound variants, Scout Sentinels), mediocre at best (Valkyre, Armoured Sentinels) or just simply bad (Rough Riders). And the only good codex AA option is the Vendetta, more so than in 5th edition thankfully to the Hydra nerf and the loss of the TL order.

Oh boy...

assuming GW continiue with the actual course of nerfing obvious OP units to an acceptable level, I am really looking forward for a new Tau and Eldar codex and the related threads here on dakka... should be unbelievable hilarious and entertaining.

Its always the same:.

"PLEASE GW! Codex XYZ has so much cheese in it. I want a balanced game. Take it away... but dont take my cheese!" --- really, get over it. The vendetta is still a real good option. You can discuss about the transport nerf but there are several good reasons, why it should have less then the Walk, logical and balance related.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Funny thing is, that even though the Vendetta is now more expensive and lost half its carrying capacity, it is still the best Fast Attack choice in the codex. Everything else is either overpriced for its abilities (Hellhound variants, Scout Sentinels), mediocre at best (Valkyre, Armoured Sentinels) or just simply bad (Rough Riders). And the only good codex AA option is the Vendetta, more so than in 5th edition thankfully to the Hydra nerf and the loss of the TL order.

The Vendetta is still the best anti-air unit Guard have (unless you include FW options) which adds to its appeal, if the Hydra was hit with a buff bat instead of the nerf bat, I think the Vendetta wouldn't be quite as desirable.

Ruleswise and model wise I would have preferred to see the Vulture or Thunderbolt make its way in to the IG codex and seen the Vendetta dropped. Of course I don't like to see models dropped, I just think it would be nicer to have a pure gunship or a pure fighter then had the Valkyrie as the primary airborne troop transport which has a focus on anti-infantry.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Funny thing is, that even though the Vendetta is now more expensive and lost half its carrying capacity, it is still the best Fast Attack choice in the codex. Everything else is either overpriced for its abilities (Hellhound variants, Scout Sentinels), mediocre at best (Valkyre, Armoured Sentinels) or just simply bad (Rough Riders). And the only good codex AA option is the Vendetta, more so than in 5th edition thankfully to the Hydra nerf and the loss of the TL order.

Pretty much.

The armoured sentinel buff helps, and you might see them on the table now. Whereas before you would run 3x Vendettas without thinking, now you might see 2x Vendetta and a Hellhound or pack of armoured sentinels.

I think the Hellhound gang is still too expensive, especially with how cheap the Eradicator is now.

 Blacksails wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Funny thing is, that even though the Vendetta is now more expensive and lost half its carrying capacity, it is still the best Fast Attack choice in the codex. Everything else is either overpriced for its abilities (Hellhound variants, Scout Sentinels), mediocre at best (Valkyre, Armoured Sentinels) or just simply bad (Rough Riders). And the only good codex AA option is the Vendetta, more so than in 5th edition thankfully to the Hydra nerf and the loss of the TL order.

Pretty much.

The armoured sentinel buff helps, and you might see them on the table now. Whereas before you would run 3x Vendettas without thinking, now you might see 2x Vendetta and a Hellhound or pack of armoured sentinels.

I think the Hellhound gang is still too expensive, especially with how cheap the Eradicator is now.

Missing the buff to Armored Sentinels. ...........Never mind, a 35 point drop for plasma sentinel is a nice buff.