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People complain about OP Vendetta. GW listens and nerfs Vendetta. People complain GW nerfed Vendetta. Poor GW.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
People complain about OP Vendetta. GW listens and nerfs Vendetta. People complain GW nerfed Vendetta. Poor GW.

No, GW does not get off the hook because a few IG players can't do mathematics. The bloody thing is still arguably more efficient than the Stormraven. It's certainly better at taking hits still on a point wise basis.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
People complain about OP Vendetta. GW listens and nerfs Vendetta. People complain GW nerfed Vendetta. Poor GW.

#thanksDakka

#thanksObama

the vendetta was well costed when it was a fast skimmer, not so much as a flyer. IG players, or the OP in particular, is complaining because they re-balanced the vendetta to its proper level.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Poor GW.

BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....hahaha...ha..ha.....ha.........ha......


...yes, poor GW, they can't do anything right.... I guess that's why they don't even try.

 Sour Note wrote:
News to me.

Seriously? When the 5e IG codex dropped it became apparent very early on that the vendetta was hands-down the best unit in the codex, even with skimmer rules, and it got even better when it was upgraded to a flyer proper. Not knowing this when the codex has been out for as long as it has, whether due to just sheer ignorance or being a newer player who just didn't know any better, is no excuse to be so upset over what is by all counts an appropriate and fair change. It's not "the death of the vendetta" and to suggest as such is just silly.

The vendetta was just too good, period. For one, it was (and kinda still is) cheaper and vastly superior to every other flyer in the game that's come since. Second, it was better than every other Fast Attack option in the Guard codex. No one ever used the valkyrie before because there was no point, and even with the price increase people would still have no excuse to use a regular valkyrie over a vendetta if it had the same transport capacity, because the vendetta is just plain better in every respect. You even said it yourself, you would still take one even if it were 195 points, which really says a lot if you ask me. The vendetta was so good that even at near 200 points it's still a no-brainer choice, so clearly something else needed to be done to it in order to make it truly balanced, right? Hence the transport nerf. You can call it "stupid" because the model still physically has the space to carry the models, but it means almost literally nothing, as it isn't unique to the vendetta and a lot of models don't visually represent what the rules claim: case in point, razorbacks losing some transport capacity despite still being rhinos with the same physical space inside the vehicle, or Tau hammerheads and Eldar fire prisms losing their capacity entirely even though they are obviously transports with turrets just stuck on top, and there are many more I'm sure. I imagine the philosophy behind all these other conversions is that there's no need for the extra interior detail that most people won't see or notice anyway, and I imagine it's the same idea with the vendetta, but unfortunately it just becomes super obvious with the vendetta since it's much easier to see the interior. Either that, or GW just plain fethed up in creating the vendetta and essentially replaced the valkyrie with it, since if it were truly that easy to increase the valkyrie's firepower without any other drawback whatsoever, I imagine the valkyrie would have been made redundant. In any case though, you can't argue the change is "unnecessary", because like I pointed out, people would still have taken the vendetta over the valkyrie every single time if all it got was a price increase.

If you still insist on being sour then take a look at the garbage other races get for their flyers, and the price we pay for them...not only that but the models themselves are all much, much uglier, due to being original GW designs and not something ported over from the much more competent designers at FW. In my opinion you're really lucky to have the vendetta, it's still better than most other flyers in the game, and still one of the coolest models GW has ever released, and probably one of the last ones since they've long since decided they won't be cannibalizing FW's sales anymore, and are clearly incapable of utilizing the talent they do have to create something better than this...

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Tau-Empire-Sun-Shark-Bomber

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Stormtalon-Gunship

TL;DR: GW can't write rules for gak.

It is still one of the best flyers around, its just not stupidly good now.

 Sidstyler wrote:
If you still insist on being sour then take a look at the garbage other races get for their flyers, and the price we pay for them.

I'm still waiting for the Thunderbolt and Lightning to not be complete and utter crap


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Martel732 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
People complain about OP Vendetta. GW listens and nerfs Vendetta. People complain GW nerfed Vendetta. Poor GW.

No, GW does not get off the hook because a few IG players can't do mathematics. The bloody thing is still arguably more efficient than the Stormraven. It's certainly better at taking hits still on a point wise basis.

Arguably... not a good argument, but you could try I don't think the Vendetta is bad, but if the IG had access to the Stormraven (including it's Bs4 and all), I'd take the Stormraven. Other than the fact the Stormraven model is ugly as all hell.

The stormraven has nothing on the vendetta, honestly.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
If you still insist on being sour then take a look at the garbage other races get for their flyers, and the price we pay for them.

I'm still waiting for the Thunderbolt and Lightning to not be complete and utter crap


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
People complain about OP Vendetta. GW listens and nerfs Vendetta. People complain GW nerfed Vendetta. Poor GW.

No, GW does not get off the hook because a few IG players can't do mathematics. The bloody thing is still arguably more efficient than the Stormraven. It's certainly better at taking hits still on a point wise basis.

Arguably... not a good argument, but you could try I don't think the Vendetta is bad, but if the IG had access to the Stormraven (including it's Bs4 and all), I'd take the Stormraven. Other than the fact the Stormraven model is ugly as all hell.

I'm not sure that's the right choice, honestly. The Stormraven is still paying for a lot of useless wargear and abilities. And costs 30 pts more to die to precisely the same kind of firepower. If you want to make it truly versatile, its 30 more points. So to be truly superior to the Vendetta, you have to fork out 60 more points, not just 30. It's a "fair" trade, but not one I think is a good one in a game where durability is a premium.

Even at 170 points, it's a hard counter for a knight, especially when it brings a buddy. Take it, load it with a squad full of melta, laugh about positional advantage. This thing is still the HinD of the imperial guard, you just can't load G. I. Schmo on it with 9 of his buddies anymore.

Being able to pile in cheap special weapons is just icing on the the cake. The marines have no cheap anything to put in their flier.

Martel732 wrote:
Being able to pile in cheap special weapons is just icing on the the cake. The marines have no cheap anything to put in their flier.

Not true... you could be dumb and load it with scouts.

The SR has more firepower per turn with POTMS (though in a prolonged battle will run out of missiles and if you take the MM is shorter ranged) at a higher Bs with 12 armour all round (Vendetta has a soft rear end) and can deposit more troops (and hard hitting ones) and doesn't evaporate quite so easy if a melta hits it (admittedly not something that happens frequently). That's worth 30pts IMO.

The only real advantage of the Vendetta is that it's better against high AV vehicles at long range and it comes as a FA squadron instead of a single model in HS. If the Vendetta were relegated to a single model in HS, their appeal would drop massively.

Well, you could put a techpriest inside the vendetta. That would give it POTMS and a chance to repair. Hmmm, not sure you can do POTMS from inside. Off to YMDC I go!

Oh my God, so you're crying that one of the most underpriced, overpowered flyers(three frickin twin-linked lascannons!) got rightfully nerfed?

Are you saying that it's bad that people won't spam them and that it stopped being a mindless auto-include in -every- IG army? Wow.

I know that people get easily used to luxuries, but crying that it became much more balanced is.. wrong. Really wrong. Vendetta wasn't -fine- the way it was before, it was way too cheap for what it did and on top of that it could even transport special weapon vets? Ridiculous. It was obvious that it'll get nerfed. As it is now, it'll still serve it's anti-tank/-flyer purpose just without added cheese of it being dirt-cheap and carrying a bucket of special weapons(unless you put 5 scions with 2 plasmas/meltas in it).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The SR has more firepower per turn with POTMS (though in a prolonged battle will run out of missiles and if you take the MM is shorter ranged) at a higher Bs with 12 armour all round (Vendetta has a soft rear end) and can deposit more troops (and hard hitting ones) and doesn't evaporate quite so easy if a melta hits it (admittedly not something that happens frequently). That's worth 30pts IMO.

The only real advantage of the Vendetta is that it's better against high AV vehicles at long range and it comes as a FA squadron instead of a single model in HS. If the Vendetta were relegated to a single model in HS, their appeal would drop massively.

And it's cheaper. If you can't tell, I'm a real cheapskate in 6th ed. Because stuff is gonna die. I find the POTMS to be a huge gamble against priority targets. Generally I want a little overkill in case of bad rolling. Loading hard hitting troops in the Storm Raven either forces them out early, or risks having them die in a fiery explosion. In fact, I think that since the Vendetta has access to cheap dudes with specials makes its lowly 6 man capacity MORE valuable than the Stormraven's transport capacity. The Stormraven's transport is mostly there to get you in trouble. Ceramite lol.

170 points for a 12/12/10 FLYER with THREE twin linked Lascannons is still a pretty good deal. That's a lot of gun you are getting, son. I am a little miffed about the transport capacity but I'll just whip up some Valks for my transport needs.

For the Stormraven's transport option to be worth it, you really need to take advantage of the Assault Vehicle rule. Which means exposing it to being slaughtered.

 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Sour Note wrote:
The model doesnt change just adds on some guns

Funny, a razorback is a rhino with an added turret...but it halves the capacity... Idk, the vendetta may need more cogitators inside, or less 'passengers' to balance the weight.

its not like they said "oh a land raider has 4 lascannons, lets cut the tranport capacity to 5!"

Except two landraiders cost as three vendettas, don't fly, and have two lascannons (albeit twinlinked), if I'm not missing two others somewhere else...
I mean, it is quite a big nerf, but it is somewhat... "reasonable".

Edited for typos

Which might be fair if rhinos and lr's werent already BS4


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 Sidstyler wrote:

 Sour Note wrote:
News to me.

Seriously? When the 5e IG codex dropped it became apparent very early on that the vendetta was hands-down the best unit in the codex, even with skimmer rules, and it got even better when it was upgraded to a flyer proper. Not knowing this when the codex has been out for as long as it has, whether due to just sheer ignorance or being a newer player who just didn't know any better, is no excuse to be so upset over what is by all counts an appropriate and fair change. It's not "the death of the vendetta" and to suggest as such is just silly.

The vendetta was just too good, period. For one, it was (and kinda still is) cheaper and vastly superior to every other flyer in the game that's come since. Second, it was better than every other Fast Attack option in the Guard codex. No one ever used the valkyrie before because there was no point, and even with the price increase people would still have no excuse to use a regular valkyrie over a vendetta if it had the same transport capacity, because the vendetta is just plain better in every respect. You even said it yourself, you would still take one even if it were 195 points, which really says a lot if you ask me. The vendetta was so good that even at near 200 points it's still a no-brainer choice, so clearly something else needed to be done to it in order to make it truly balanced, right? Hence the transport nerf. You can call it "stupid" because the model still physically has the space to carry the models, but it means almost literally nothing, as it isn't unique to the vendetta and a lot of models don't visually represent what the rules claim: case in point, razorbacks losing some transport capacity despite still being rhinos with the same physical space inside the vehicle, or Tau hammerheads and Eldar fire prisms losing their capacity entirely even though they are obviously transports with turrets just stuck on top, and there are many more I'm sure. I imagine the philosophy behind all these other conversions is that there's no need for the extra interior detail that most people won't see or notice anyway, and I imagine it's the same idea with the vendetta, but unfortunately it just becomes super obvious with the vendetta since it's much easier to see the interior. Either that, or GW just plain fethed up in creating the vendetta and essentially replaced the valkyrie with it, since if it were truly that easy to increase the valkyrie's firepower without any other drawback whatsoever, I imagine the valkyrie would have been made redundant. In any case though, you can't argue the change is "unnecessary", because like I pointed out, people would still have taken the vendetta over the valkyrie every single time if all it got was a price increase.

If you still insist on being sour then take a look at the garbage other races get for their flyers, and the price we pay for them...not only that but the models themselves are all much, much uglier, due to being original GW designs and not something ported over from the much more competent designers at FW. In my opinion you're really lucky to have the vendetta, it's still better than most other flyers in the game, and still one of the coolest models GW has ever released, and probably one of the last ones since they've long since decided they won't be cannibalizing FW's sales anymore, and are clearly incapable of utilizing the talent they do have to create something better than this...

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Tau-Empire-Sun-Shark-Bomber

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Stormtalon-Gunship

TL;DR: GW can't write rules for gak.

The news to me was that there was already a thread for this srry bout the confusion i know the 5th ed codex which is why i loved the vendetta and i dont think the vendetta was so OP, i play eldar and GK. and ig and i think the vendetta was that one good unit we had. Our land raider or wave serpent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also i dont know i think the crimson hunter at bs5 vector dancer with sky fire isnt op? Almost the same price? Yeah its not a transport but itll rape fliers, and its a beautiful model there is balance as its a pure fighter, but with a transport capacity of six in an army of base units of 10 i find it confusing to nerf the vendetta's transport like that either get rid of its transport and make it a pure gunship. Or limit its choice of flying or shooting with the same transport capacity im not arguing the netf sure non-ig players can whine all they want im just saying its transport capacity of 6 isnt fair its nonsensical like a not waterproof boat

 Sour Note wrote:
srry bout the confusion i know the 5th ed codex which is why i loved the vendetta and i dont think the vendetta was so OP, i play eldar and GK. and ig and i think the vendetta was that one good unit we had.

Okay. So you played with some of the better weathered armies in the last few years and somehow never noticed that the vendetta is one of the best flyers in the game. Here's some simple questions. Do you know how many Ork flyers there are? Do you ever see the DA flyer? Have you seen the Tau's 11/10/10 bomber that costs 10 points less with no transport capacity?
You probably haven't, because nobody fields those flyers because they are so badly costed to what whey do. The vendetta was on such a high pedestal that all other flyers had to be judged by it. When you were taking Anti-air you weren't planning on taking down AV10-11 flyers, you were planning on hitting AV12/12. When you were planning on bringing your own flyers you had to have an answer for three twin-linked lascannons.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Sour Note wrote:
Here's some simple questions. Do you know how many Ork flyers there are? Do you ever see the DA flyer? Have you seen the Tau's 11/10/10 bomber that costs 10 points less with no transport capacity?
You probably haven't, because nobody fields those flyers because they are so badly costed to what whey do.

To be fair, the Dakkajet isn't too bad for its cost, but I agree with the rest of your points.

That's my point though. There are three different Ork flyers, but the only one that I've ever seen used is the Dakka jet. I don't even remember what the other two did because it's been so long since I've last heard about them.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
That's my point though. There are three different Ork flyers, but the only one that I've ever seen used is the Dakka jet. I don't even remember what the other two did because it's been so long since I've last heard about them.

One's a bomber, and the other one...has fire bombs I think.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Sour Note wrote:
srry bout the confusion i know the 5th ed codex which is why i loved the vendetta and i dont think the vendetta was so OP, i play eldar and GK. and ig and i think the vendetta was that one good unit we had.

Okay. So you played with some of the better weathered armies in the last few years and somehow never noticed that the vendetta is one of the best flyers in the game. Here's some simple questions. Do you know how many Ork flyers there are? Do you ever see the DA flyer? Have you seen the Tau's 11/10/10 bomber that costs 10 points less with no transport capacity?
You probably haven't, because nobody fields those flyers because they are so badly costed to what whey do. The vendetta was on such a high pedestal that all other flyers had to be judged by it. When you were taking Anti-air you weren't planning on taking down AV10-11 flyers, you were planning on hitting AV12/12. When you were planning on bringing your own flyers you had to have an answer for three twin-linked lascannons.

It was so bad that even the Stormraven was a joke. Now, at least, the Stormraven can be fielded without that trump card out there.

One has a bomb that is bigger than a LR battlecannon but has the actual firepower of a Taurox cannon...

 agnosto wrote:
Fliers only have so much lift capacity; if you strap on a ton in weapons, it makes sense to carry less in troops. A bit more realistic.

That would be an argument if not for the fact that we know that the Valkyrie is capable of flying with a pair of rather large fuel tanks under the wings and a pair of Sentinels in the transport compartment. And we know that the gun pods can't be that heavy because there are similar lascannons that can be carried around by infantry squads.

 Trickstick wrote:
Lascannon battery packs only hold a single charge, and need changing after every shot. The wing mountings probably contain capacitors, not batteries. It is not unreasonable to assume that extra weight and internal space is used up by extra capacitors, batteries or alternators. It is a shame that the conversion kit doesn't come with extra interior detail, but who would really want to pay for that?

Nope, they're the same battery packs that are used on infantry lascannons (no generator included, just batteries), tanks (IA1 internal views show lascannon batteries) and on the Vulture (uses the same hardpoints as missiles/autocannons/etc, and fluff-wise has limited ammunition).

 MWHistorian wrote:
Makes perfect sense to me. You need more than battery packs to fire a weapon. Inside there are either servitors, cogitor banks and/or gunners. Those take room so less people to carry. Maybe it also carries spare battery packs. There's numerous reasons the transport capacity is lowered.

But you don't need those things. The lascannons are in gun pods that include everything you need, they're a fixed-mount weapon so all you need is a wire running to the pilot and/or gunner's trigger to fire the guns. These aren't fancy turrets or anything, they're just some standard lascannons bolted to the wings.

Peregrine, I gotta say that I really don't care the model at all. It could be a shoebox, and the six person capacity would still be fine with me .You can still get your three plasma guns, so who really cares? That's all that matters anyway.

We knew it was coming, and honestly it's nowhere near as bad a nerf as I was expecting. The thing still does it's primary job of killing things dead just fine, and it can still carry CCS's, PCS's, StormTroopers, and SWS's for your paradropping goodness.

Yes, it can't carry vet squads anymore, but if it could, you'd be looking at around 200pts probably for it at that point, which would make it very expensive.

At least it didn't take as bad a hit as Pysker Battle Squads took, or even worse, get removed like the artillery platforms. The vendetta 'technically' doesn't have a kit either after all.

Put an enginseer in it and shoot two targets.

Want to carry more? Use a Valk?