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mmmm...

Ok, I'll take a look at those claws and wings. Her invul is 3+ thats a 2/3 chance of making it. If she gets 2+ it is 5/6 chance. But I see what you mean. I'll change it.

Honestly though, Kerrigan is making me sad, and I think I might just take her out...

 Glorywarrior wrote:
mmmm...

Ok, I'll take a look at those claws and wings. Her invul is 3+ thats a 2/3 chance of making it. If she gets 2+ it is 5/6 chance. But I see what you mean. I'll change it.

Honestly though, Kerrigan is making me sad, and I think I might just take her out...

Not that surprising really- this is fairly similar to what usually happens when the subject of the rules for Primarchs (or, if you're rearing for a real shitstorm, Emps) comes up...

Extremely powerful characters are very difficult to put into the 40K game system without nerfing them to hell and back or making them game breakingly powerful.

"Sniff, Sniff."

Really, though, queens aren't that bad in my rules, the buff for inject larvae is good. I can live.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
"Sniff, Sniff."

Really, though, queens aren't that bad in my rules, the buff for inject larvae is good. I can live.

Buffs are nice, but you made them a bit weak statswise- given their size and importance they should have 3 wounds. Their shooting attack should also have more shots.

Other than that they're fine.

I made them T5, 3W, and gave them one more attack. How many points you think?

Yo no offense but you guys do realize, that some of the units you have made, Kerrigan in particular, are just way over the top. No sane person would ever want to play against something like that, even if was just meant for a friendly game.

You should consider toning it down a bit. Capture certain units essence by giving them all kinds of cool abilities and amazeballs stats is fun and all, but hardly makes for something playable.

Here’s something I made on the fly.


WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Zealot 5 4 4 4 1 5 2 8 4+/5++
Prealot 6 5 4 4 3 6 4 10 4+/5++

Unit Type:
- Infantry

Wargear:
- Power suits: 4+ armor save
- Psi-blades: two power swords
- Plasma shield: 5++ invul

Special Rules:
- Way of the Khala: Iron Will special rule
- Charge: Fleet of Foot special rule, count as having frag grenades


Not nearly as flashy as most of us would like it to be, but it’s definitely playable.

I'm already taking Kerrigan out. Anything else?

 Redcruisair wrote:
Yo no offense but you guys do realize, that some of the units you have made, Kerrigan in particular, are just way over the top. No sane person would ever want to play against something like that, even if was just meant for a friendly game.

You should consider toning it down a bit. Capture certain units essence by giving them all kinds of cool abilities and amazeballs stats is fun and all, but hardly makes for something playable.

Here’s something I made on the fly.


WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Zealot 5 4 4 4 1 5 2 8 4+/5++
Prealot 6 5 4 4 3 6 4 10 4+/5++

Unit Type:
- Infantry

Wargear:
- Power suits: 4+ armor save
- Psi-blades: two power swords
- Plasma shield: 5++ invul

Special Rules:
- Way of the Khala: Iron Will special rule
- Charge: Fleet of Foot special rule, count as having frag grenades


Not nearly as flashy as most of us would like it to be, but it’s definitely playable.

4+/5++!? Leaving fluff aside for the moment, how could a squad of models this squishy be expected to survive reaching assault range (unless you make them dirt cheap and give them a high model count, which is the exact opposite of what you'd expect of the Protoss)?

Anyway, I've started working on compiling a Protoss fandex, I'll attach what I wrote up so far-

Nice piece of work. I’ll be taking a thorough look at it tomorrow.

Have you tried play testing it already?

 Redcruisair wrote:
Nice piece of work. I’ll be taking a thorough look at it tomorrow.

Have you tried play testing it already?

Only really wrote up 4 entries and a the army's special rules, it's a long way from being ready for playtesting.

Also, the only models I have that would be on the ballpark of Stalkers/Dragoons in term of size are my Necron Destroyers, and all six of them are still in their boxes...

Thankfully I've got a Transcended C'tan, which should work rather well for a proxy Archon once I write up its rules.

Of course, the chance of my finding some time to actually playtest it in the next couple of months are slim to none anyway, seeing as how the tests period is fast approaching...

I would say charge would give some special bonus to assault. Rage, perhaps, and you can always charge 9"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My decision: Protoss are OP.

5 zealots can call in an apocalypitic mega blast? sorry if I'm wrong, but that's what I read.

Three attacks per zealot is too much. Give them 2. a ten man squad charging gets 40 power sword attacks? And they re-roll to hit for an extremely low price? And a 4+ invul and FNP to get there?

A troops choice with skyfire? They better be at least 50 Points each, because that's about how much a quad gun is.

Stalker should be troops, they are used that much. Also, a stalker is practically a dragoon without 3+ armor and has blink upgrade.

Immortals better be at least 200 points. You're like, "what, 200? That's for Land Raiders." But that doesn't matter, because with immortal shields, everything needs a 6 to pen anyway.

Actually, they should be more, because a strength 10 AP 1 weapon deserves more points.

I would never want to face this army. sorry.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
I would say charge would give some special bonus to assault. Rage, perhaps, and you can always charge 9"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My decision: Protoss are OP.

5 zealots can call in an apocalypitic mega blast? sorry if I'm wrong, but that's what I read.

Three attacks per zealot is too much. Give them 2. a ten man squad charging gets 40 power sword attacks? And they re-roll to hit for an extremely low price? And a 4+ invul and FNP to get there?

A troops choice with skyfire? They better be at least 50 Points each, because that's about how much a quad gun is.

Stalker should be troops, they are used that much. Also, a stalker is practically a dragoon without 3+ armor and has blink upgrade.

Immortals better be at least 200 points. You're like, "what, 200? That's for Land Raiders." But that doesn't matter, because with immortal shields, everything needs a 6 to pen anyway.

Actually, they should be more, because a strength 10 AP 1 weapon deserves more points.

I would never want to face this army. sorry.

Mega blast-they don't HAVE that power, they can only buy the psionic charge, noting else. though the haywire has to go, it super-glances too well, maybe give it the guass ability to glance anything on 6s.

Zealot-I think he forgot they should be AP3, not 2, and a model that is 25 points BASE and it pure assault without any shooting better have some impressive assault stats. espeically when coupled with marine-level survivability VS bolters. they are honestly fine and I would not mind anyone fielding them against me.

Dragoon-a bit OTT, should be S6, but other then that its decent.

Stalker-no they should not. the fact something is used often in the PC game does not make it troops in 40k. the two are unrelated and its abilities are clearly FA.

Immortal-the gun is OTT, alot.


Now "never want to face this army", thats one hell of a statement given that most of the few things in there things dont even have point costs, meaning you have no idea what is the intended scale.
They may very well be outnumbered by a GK army that uses only real GK.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
I would say charge would give some special bonus to assault. Rage, perhaps, and you can always charge 9"?

I might tweak this ability somewhat, but I want it to remain distinct rather than just another cookie cutter "gets x and y USRs" ability.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
My decision: Protoss are OP.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
5 zealots can call in an apocalypitic mega blast? sorry if I'm wrong, but that's what I read.

They have one power point for the entire squad regardless of its size and no access to any power save through a 10 point per model upgrade to learn Psionic Charge .

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Three attacks per zealot is too much. Give them 2. a ten man squad charging gets 40 power sword attacks? And they re-roll to hit for an extremely low price? And a 4+ invul and FNP to get there?

4++ 5+FNP is on average about as good as power armor against small arms fire and other weapons that lack AP3 or better (the average is exactly the same in fact). It's harder to get through for low AP weapons but high strength weapons ignore their FNP regardless of AP value. Most armies have little issue killing marines without AP3 or better weaponry via massed small arms fire, and Zealots are just as susceptible to that and twice as expensive a pop with no ranged attack whatsoever.

At 25 points a pop they're fairly durable melee bruisers that are limited to infantry movement speed and have no ranged weapon options and come in fairly low numbers. Cough up 5 more points per model and they become a poor man's jump infantry, bring them up to the price of a Terminator and they'll have a much greater charge distance and ignore overwatch but otherwise remain basically the same (at 40 a pop Termies get 2+/5++, storm bolters, power fists and a bazillion options).

 Glorywarrior wrote:
A troops choice with skyfire? They better be at least 50 Points each, because that's about how much a quad gun is.

I'm thinking of dropping the skyfire or making it an upgrade.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Stalker should be troops, they are used that much. Also, a stalker is practically a dragoon without 3+ armor and has blink upgrade.

On a second thought, not really...

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Immortals better be at least 200 points. You're like, "what, 200? That's for Land Raiders." But that doesn't matter, because with immortal shields, everything needs a 6 to pen anyway.

Actually, they should be more, because a strength 10 AP 1 weapon deserves more points.

Keep in mind that they can be glanced to death by bolters and have a mere 24" range.

I never planned on making them particularly cheap though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Mega blast-they don't HAVE that power, they can only buy the psionic charge, noting else. though the haywire has to go, it super-glances too well, maybe give it the guass ability to glance anything on 6s.

Do keep in mind that the psi-storm power isn't exactly being handed out like candy or anything... Regular High Templars and High Templar HQ choices get it, but none of them gets above mastery level 3 save for Tassadar (ML4 and he's going to be about as expensive as a LoW), Archons are ML2-3 and compete for the same slot as High Templars and the only thing in the codex that can get to ML5 is the Twilight Archon (ML4-5), and he's their high end LoW option.

Might nerf it to "glance on a 4+" instead of Haywire though.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Zealot-I think he forgot they should be AP3, not 2

The Psi-Blade weapon profile states AP3.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Dragoon-a bit OTT, should be S6, but other then that its decent.

Maybe the second fire mode could come as an optional upgrade? At the right price it wouldn't be that out of place (kind of like taking a few missile launchers with flakk missiles, only lower S and AP in exchange for a second shot).

 BoomWolf wrote:
Stalker-no they should not. the fact something is used often in the PC game does not make it troops in 40k. the two are unrelated and its abilities are clearly FA.

Indeed.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Immortal-the gun is OTT, alot.

Its gun IS supposed to me an extremely powerful anti-tank weapon. Might drop the twin-linking to make it a bit less reliable tough.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Now "never want to face this army", thats one hell of a statement given that most of the few things in there things dont even have point costs, meaning you have no idea what is the intended scale.
They may very well be outnumbered by a GK army that uses only real GK.

This codex is going to have the ability to give low model count GK builds a run for their money on low model counts...

Worked on it a bit more- re-wrote the Brotherhood of Psions and Psionics special rules for better clarity, added stats for High Templars, nerfed Dragoon gun, took away twin-linking from the Immortal and gave stuff somewhat arbitrary point costs as a starting point.

[EDIT]: Added rules for the Colossus (no point cost yet).

The immortal still strikes me as too much.
Yes, the mechanic is fun and fluffy-but he s simply too though, even an army with overkill S5 shots like tau will have a nightmare taking it down as to glance down front armor you need an average of 36 HITS. meaning multiple squads of the most effective profile are required.

And any better gun you come with is just useless. you cant GET better then S5 spamming.
Now take it on some other army, say SM, even on imperial fist heavy bolter dev squad, the top of the S5 spam they produce, you only get about 9-10 such hits.

Its just...too much. even on the "mere 10" side and rear, you need to hit 18 times with S5. being a vehicle with an invul 4+ pretty much proved ultimate defense against small arms fire (to the point some armies SAF cant even hurt it), and the immortal shield renders it invulnerable to any quality shots.

The shield should lower S to 6, or the invul has to drop. both at once is just unkillable for its cost.
Either that, or a serious price hike to compensate the fact its heavy firepower on an extremely durable shell.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The immortal still strikes me as too much.
Yes, the mechanic is fun and fluffy-but he s simply too though, even an army with overkill S5 shots like tau will have a nightmare taking it down as to glance down front armor you need an average of 36 HITS. meaning multiple squads of the most effective profile are required.

And any better gun you come with is just useless. you cant GET better then S5 spamming.
Now take it on some other army, say SM, even on imperial fist heavy bolter dev squad, the top of the S5 spam they produce, you only get about 9-10 such hits.

Its just...too much. even on the "mere 10" side and rear, you need to hit 18 times with S5. being a vehicle with an invul 4+ pretty much proved ultimate defense against small arms fire (to the point some armies SAF cant even hurt it), and the immortal shield renders it invulnerable to any quality shots.

The shield should lower S to 6, or the invul has to drop. both at once is just unkillable for its cost.
Either that, or a serious price hike to compensate the fact its heavy firepower on an extremely durable shell.

How about strength 6 instead of 5 and an immunity to penetrating hits?

Few more changes/additions-

If you do the immunity to penetrating hits I would make limit 8 or no limit at all. Immunity to that is too good.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
If you do the immunity to penetrating hits I would make limit 8 or no limit at all. Immunity to that is too good.

Keep in mind that you're talking about a vehicle that can be glanced to death by most basic troop choices in the game, is practically helpless in assault, has a 24" range and costs 150pts...

Hose it down with some high volume low S fire or tarpit it with something.

Actually the current version seems ok.
S6-7 spam can glance it down quick enough, and armorbane/melta/etc can still get easy glances, even if they will be mere glances.
An haywire and co. are just as lethal.

Its just,,,hard to take it down if you are not equipped with "alternate tank hunting" tool.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually the current version seems ok.
S6-7 spam can glance it down quick enough, and armorbane/melta/etc can still get easy glances, even if they will be mere glances.
An haywire and co. are just as lethal.

Its just,,,hard to take it down if you are not equipped with "alternate tank hunting" tool.

If you lack a decent number of S 4-7 shots AND have nothing that can hurt AV11 in assault then you're doing SOMETHING wrong (and Immortals won't be the only thing that would give you grief...).

I should add a clarification that the Immortal shield doesn't work against Haywire and strength D hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mathhammered it a bit, here's the results on shots to kill for various strength values and adjustments for BS3/4 and with/without twinlinking (F= Front, S= Side/rear, UH=Unmodified Hits, B3= BS3, B4= BS4, T3= BS3 TL, T4= BS4 TL):

. . . . . |UH | B3 | B4 | T3 | T4
S4 | F | -- .| --- .|. -- .|. -- | --
. . .| S | 36 | 72 .| 54 | 48 | 40.5
S5 | F | 36 | 72 .| 54 | 48 | 40.5
. . .| S | 18 | 36 .| 27 | 24 | 20.5
S6 | F | 18 | 36 .| 27 | 24 | 20.5
. . .| S | 12 | 24 .| 18 | 16 | 13.5

If I'll have time I'll go over various armies and see how easy it would be for them to manage it at reasonable point costs.

I'm having trouble reading that chart...

How many strength 5 shots w/ BS 3 would kill the immortal?

On 1d4chan we're working on new codexes for the Covenant, Sisters of battle, Tyranids, Squats, and Dark Angels.

You guys are welcome to join us in /tg/brew.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
I'm having trouble reading that chart...

How many strength 5 shots w/ BS 3 would kill the immortal?

72 if you shoot it from the front, 36 from the side or rear.

As IG, drive a Punisher Leman Russ into its side or rear arcs and it dies in two turns of firing on average not counting any weapon other than the Punisher cannon (at 140pts the Punisher also has a heavy bolter so statistically its average firepower over 2 shooting phases will be a fair bit higher than the average number of shots required and for 20pts more it get two more heavy bolters to play with).

Bolters would need 36 hits at the side or rear arcs to take it down. A squad of 10 vanilla space marines with no special or heavy weapons should manage it in around 3 turns of shooting assuming the the Immortal doesn't run away to deny them rapid fire range (in which case this 140pt squad rendered this 24" ranged 150pts model all but useless).

10 Tau Fire warriors (100pts) with BS3 would bring it down in around 3 turns of shooting on average assuming first turn they shoot its front, second turn its side and third turn its side at rapid fire range (a bit of support from a markerlight or two would do their statistics wonders).

Nids would literally eat it alive in assault or swarm it with dirt cheap Termagaunt spam (36 termagants at its side or rear arcs would average enough shots to kill it in a single turn if I remember their stats correctly).

Do I even need to mention the Necron options?

Here is my fan made Tyranid Codex.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/594879.page

 Galorian wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:
I'm having trouble reading that chart...

How many strength 5 shots w/ BS 3 would kill the immortal?

72 if you shoot it from the front, 36 from the side or rear.

As IG, drive a Punisher Leman Russ into its side or rear arcs and it dies in two turns of firing on average not counting any weapon other than the Punisher cannon (at 140pts the Punisher also has a heavy bolter so statistically its average firepower over 2 shooting phases will be a fair bit higher than the average number of shots required and for 20pts more it get two more heavy bolters to play with).

Bolters would need 36 hits at the side or rear arcs to take it down. A squad of 10 vanilla space marines with no special or heavy weapons should manage it in around 3 turns of shooting assuming the the Immortal doesn't run away to deny them rapid fire range (in which case this 140pt squad rendered this 24" ranged 150pts model all but useless).

10 Tau Fire warriors (100pts) with BS3 would bring it down in around 3 turns of shooting on average assuming first turn they shoot its front, second turn its side and third turn its side at rapid fire range (a bit of support from a markerlight or two would do their statistics wonders).

Nids would literally eat it alive in assault or swarm it with dirt cheap Termagaunt spam (36 termagants at its side or rear arcs would average enough shots to kill it in a single turn if I remember their stats correctly).

Do I even need to mention the Necron options?

Come to 1d4chan and post your stuff there. We're always looking for new blood in our current fandex and homebrew craze.

 Kain wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

 Glorywarrior wrote:
I'm having trouble reading that chart...

How many strength 5 shots w/ BS 3 would kill the immortal?

72 if you shoot it from the front, 36 from the side or rear.

As IG, drive a Punisher Leman Russ into its side or rear arcs and it dies in two turns of firing on average not counting any weapon other than the Punisher cannon (at 140pts the Punisher also has a heavy bolter so statistically its average firepower over 2 shooting phases will be a fair bit higher than the average number of shots required and for 20pts more it get two more heavy bolters to play with).

Bolters would need 36 hits at the side or rear arcs to take it down. A squad of 10 vanilla space marines with no special or heavy weapons should manage it in around 3 turns of shooting assuming the the Immortal doesn't run away to deny them rapid fire range (in which case this 140pt squad rendered this 24" ranged 150pts model all but useless).

10 Tau Fire warriors (100pts) with BS3 would bring it down in around 3 turns of shooting on average assuming first turn they shoot its front, second turn its side and third turn its side at rapid fire range (a bit of support from a markerlight or two would do their statistics wonders).

Nids would literally eat it alive in assault or swarm it with dirt cheap Termagaunt spam (36 termagants at its side or rear arcs would average enough shots to kill it in a single turn if I remember their stats correctly).

Do I even need to mention the Necron options?

Come to 1d4chan and post your stuff there. We're always looking for new blood in our current fandex and homebrew craze.

I'm currently in the middle of a Physics degree, I don't really have that much time...

After I flesh it out a bit more I'll start a thread at the Proposed Rules section, but I'm basically doing it over occasional study breaks so don't hold your breath.

Necrons would kill it. 72 strength 5 shots? kill it in 3 turns? I'm sorry, but that just sounds like too much.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Necrons would kill it. 72 strength 5 shots? kill it in 3 turns? I'm sorry, but that just sounds like too much.

Killing it in 3 turns with less than its own points worth of models firing at its stronger front facing, half that if you get into its side or rear arcs (which shouldn't be difficult seeing as how it's got a 24" range and would be a waste of points to aim at the units that are actually good at killing it). A Vulture gunship with TL Punisher cannons (155pts) would have a decent shot of killing it on its own in a single shooting phase if it hits its side or rear (and being a flyer that's almost guaranteed).

Heaven forbid there'd be a vehicle in the game that can't be one shotted by a meltagun...

Stormraven. But I see what you mean...